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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Have I changed?
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Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
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Posted
I used to find the Ship very welcoming. I used to love participating here, and I accepted my role as host gladly. But now things just don't feel the same, and it's making me sad.
Has my depression changed me that much? Has the Ship changed? I don't know, but I'm feeling a lot less at home here.
t
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Little devil
Posts: 3894 | From: London area | Registered: Aug 2005
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teufelchen:
Has my depression changed me that much?
This is a side note, but: I don't know about "how much," but it almost certainly has wrought very significant changes. Who you were pre-disease (or who you considered yourself to be pre-diagnosis) hasn't died, but can still be grieved. There are no limits on who gets to grieve whom. Part of the healing process of grief is re-learning how to love.
quote:
Has the Ship changed? I don't know, but I'm feeling a lot less at home here.
t
On this point, I wonder if we can have an AS-style discussion on this without getting all Stygian or Hellish? I'd hope we could.
I've been on the ship 12 years now. That's very close to the longest I've lived in one place (13), and longer than I've even been Catholic, yet alone with the CSCs. It has changed throughout, but it seems that the last couple of years have had an unusual level of 'bottom up' non-'managerial' change.
You say you no longer feel "at home." I guess I never felt like the ship was a home. It was more like my favorite bar. That doesn't mean that I haven't made some genuine and highly valued friendships here, but I've never been looking for this to be home. As much as I too enjoyed hosting, I stepped down when I realized that my presence here was detracting from my presence at 'home.'
It now takes me less and less time to check the ship each day, and I might even go a few days without check simply out of absent-mindedness, rather than a deliberate decision to abstain. There does just seem to be less life here.
I think I'm OK with that. To some extent that's because some of the needs the ship met in my life when I first started engaging here are much more fully met at 'home' than I'd ever have dreamt of back in 2003. So, I'm OK with the ship being where it is now. What I worry about, though, is where it might in a few years time.
I'm fine with my once bustling favorite bar being quiet now, but there's that nagging worry that that will lead to one day shutting the doors and not re-opening.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I have been on boards since 2000-ish, and they have changed a lot in that time. There have been times when it has been great, and times when it has been less so. That is the nature of this sort of community (which it is, but a weird one).
I suspect any illness, and particularly a mental illness, changes our perception of the world around us, and the people we interact with. Depression does change our way of relating to others, and our ability to engage.
So the answer to both is probably yes. The community has changed, which is for the better and the worse. And your illness has changed your perception of the place.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
The passage of time and the glow of memories are always going to colour things to some extent. Things are rarely ever the same as you left them. Probably both you and the Ship have changed in that time, but that's life: as with any relationship, sometimes you grow together, sometimes you grow apart. If there's been an interval, you probably start noticing things you didn't notice before. The question is whether you can work with the new aspect or not.
The community has changed; some of the more prolific posters have gone, the remaining people are now older, more settled, many with families, heading towards middle age and old age. It's still possible to get something out of being on the boards, but they're more slow-moving and less creative than they used to be.
Part of that is probably simply that bulletin boards aren't the in-thing they used to be, with people, especially young people, moving to other social media platforms. However, if you want a proper online discussion, Twitter is no good for that and Facebook not really a great deal better.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
To quote the famous line from Heraclitus of Wolfe:
quote:
You cannot go home across the same river more than once.
Ariel makes some good points. Though I wonder at the inevitability hinted at there. I don't think, and fervently pray, that one does not have to fossilise with age.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I don't think, and fervently pray, that one does not have to fossilise with age.
You don't have to, and I don't intend to. Yet I see it in people around me, who actually choose it, and settle into it, because it's easiest.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Something more, the disjunct between the remembered community and the current community is disconcerting the same way as someone updating the words of a favourite hymn is. The new words may not be worse but they are unfamiliar. Therefore, they make you feel uncomfortable where you expected familiarity.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
I tend to skim the boards less often than I did when I first joined almost 10 years ago. I certainly open my mouth to post less often. I fully expect that there may come a day when I will cease reading and posting. This does not mean that others have lost the meaning of the boards and camaradie with other members. Just that I have. We move on. That's life, eh?
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I read a lot less, and post a lot less. Much of the interaction takes place on Facebook these days.
There was certainly a discipline to being a Host which kept me reading and participating, even when it would have been very easy to lapse. Guess I haven't got that excuse now...
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I haven't been able to find SoF on Facebook. Putting 'Ship of Fools' into the search window gets me to a page where nobody has posted anything.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I joined later. I lurked for quite a while felt warned off by my observations of rude aggressivity. It changed enough for me to join.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
SOF on Facebook
It's a closed group but I think that means it's visible to non-members, doesn't it?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Nope, nothing is visible unless you join.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
There are 2 Ship Facebook groups as anyone can start a group. The other one is here.
As anyone can start a Facebook group there's no guarantee that the groups follow official ship moderation.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
Back to the original question - I know that I sometimes withdraw from the public boards, and only post on Waving. And sometimes I don't post at all, just read stuff. Probably hosting waving helps to keep me involved there, when I might otherwise drift off.
There was a period when I withdrew completely from posting. I occasionally read, an one of the threads drew me back.
So yeah, it is perfectly natural to wax and wane with enthusiasm. I believe it is a place worth staying with even in the difficult times.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
We all change. Life would be very dull otherwise.
Even if the people posting on the Ship were the same, and of course some people have left and new people have joined, the Ship would change because none of us are the same as we were 10 years ago.
The level of activity on the boards has certainly reduced. One I was hosting Purgatory it was not unusual that if I was unable to check in for a day for some of the threads to have slipped well onto page 2. Now it often takes a week rather than a day for threads to slip that far. The other boards are likewise slower.
Part of that is that the number of people using the Ship is less, and many of us have been here for a long time. I, for one, don't really feel inclined to start a new thread on a topic that's been discussed before - though I happily post on interesting topics others start. There are less threads, and less that interest me (there may well be a similar ratio of interesting threads to total though). So I post less, and more of my posts are in some sense "official". I used to be a very regular meet person, there was a period when I was in the running for "most meets attended", but though I've met up with Shipmates who are friends, I'm struggling to remember the last meet I went to. Last summer probably.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
quote:
“The grey-rain curtain turned all to silver glass and was rolled back, and he beheld white shores and beyond them a far green country under a swift sunrise.”
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
It feels like there are less 'liberals' expressing unrfest and more traditionalists challening them and asserting that they are sole arbiters of truth.
I agree, and this probably is a big factor in how I'm feeling. But I don't want to turn this into a complaining-fest, least of all an interpersonal one.
t
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Little devil
Posts: 3894 | From: London area | Registered: Aug 2005
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
I always feel a little sad (and perhaps a little guilty) if someone expresses disaffection or dischuffedness with the Ship; my instinct is to wonder if I posted something that scared them off.
I totally agree with what most people are saying here: we do all change over the years, so your perception of us will change with that.
I do hope we haven't scared you off, and that you'll return to feeling that when you drop in on the various boards you're among friends.
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
The Ship has definitely changed me, and it has definitely changed in the time I've been here. But as Ariel says, that's life. Being part of it as it found its feet, and the nascent Church of Fools right at the the outset, have been very formative influences. I think the longest I've stayed away since I started lurking in late 2001 is about three months.
Ken once memorably described discussions on the Ship as being like those in a pub. A group of regulars having a lively discussion, others dropping by and chipping in from time to time, and even the occasional brawl.
Like pubs, the forum-based medium is declining, but that doesn't mean there aren't some fine examples still to be found. In addition to the long-term trend there are tides - sometimes a flurry of activity or some really engaging threads, sometimes not. I think that's always been the case.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
People have always said 'The ship has changed' - I remember joining in that discussion way back when (probably about 2003 or 2005) and getting the response 'You too, Chorister?' from Erin. So it's nothing new.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
There was a period when I withdrew completely from posting. I occasionally read, an one of the threads drew me back.
When you have read and not posted, a quick post in the Circus acts as a time marker as to where you have read to.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
It feels like there are less 'liberals' expressing unrfest and more traditionalists challening them and asserting that they are sole arbiters of truth.
Is it really that there are "more" traditionalists - or is it just that the remaining traditionalists have continued posting more frequently than the remaining liberals, leading to the perception of a stronger traditional voice?
Having the last word is a pyrrhic victory if one is alone. Perhaps there really is an issue here with one side "suppressing" the other too effectively now, stifling debate. I for one wouldn't mind stepping back for a while if that is required to provide some breathing room. But would that really help to re-grow (liberal) active participation? Or would it just reduce participation even more?
If the "kids" now use other means to discuss, then maybe the Ship should pack up its stuff and migrate to where the action is. Dinosaurs might be impressive, but they are also dead.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
If the "kids" now use other means to discuss, then maybe the Ship should pack up its stuff and migrate to where the action is. Dinosaurs might be impressive, but they are also dead.
"Discuss" being the operative word. Could you condense your posts into 140 characters? Do today's generation actually want the longer, more reflective, polished kind of posts that SoF is prone to? If they did, wouldn't they have moved to formats that encouraged that kind of writing, instead of snappy soundbites and visual exchanges?
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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jedijudy
Organist of the Jedi Temple
# 333
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Posted
The Ship has definitely changed. But so have we.
When I was first on the Ship, I was in my middle-late forties. Now I'm in my sixties. Back then, it was fun to romp with everyone and get into little squabbles; very much like when I was a little kid. Now, I'm content to let others romp (although in a different way) and to be one of the old grandmothers sitting on a chair with a lemonade, remembering Shipmates who have gone to Glory and laughing when we talk about some of those old threads.
Teufelchen, I hope you can find that feeling of being at home. This is still a special place, IMHO.
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Jasmine, little cat with a big heart.
Posts: 18017 | From: 'Twixt the 'Glades and the Gulf | Registered: Aug 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Could you condense your posts into 140 characters?
The RCC is right, Aquinas is righter, I am rightest. #smartypants ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Anyway, 1) I find it hard to believe that "kids" only think in tweets these days, 2) with "kids" I would here also refer to a target group of say 25-35 year olds, who presumably have been forced by real life to develop some kind of attention span.
If I am wrong about this, then we might as well enjoy posting on SoF while society is heading towards the apocalypse.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jedijudy:
... sitting on a chair with a lemonade ...
As long as it's got GIN in it ... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I find it hard to believe that "kids" only think in tweets these days.
I doubt if many of them could discuss whether to fold or crinkle toilet paper*, let alone biblical exegesis, the ills of society, and the validity of masses said without maniple.
* I seem to remember a Ship thread about that.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I find it hard to believe that "kids" only think in tweets these days.
I doubt if many of them could discuss whether to fold or crinkle toilet paper*, let alone biblical exegesis, the ills of society, and the validity of masses said without maniple.
* I seem to remember a Ship thread about that.
When in public, I notice many gray heads bowed over their mobiles. Now, as I do not peep over their shoulders, I don't know if they are tweeting, texting or composing rants about how kids today are obsessed with their electronic gewgaws....
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Scarlet
Mellon Collie
# 1738
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
If the "kids" now use other means to discuss, then maybe the Ship should pack up its stuff and migrate to where the action is. Dinosaurs might be impressive, but they are also dead.
Even Wikipedia, which is where I spend my online time now, is desperately questioning how it will survive in the mobile age that has arrived. It is virtually impossible to edit there with coding and interfacing that is stuck in the PC age.
As for SOF, I joined in 2001. We most days had 10 to 12 pages of active discussion threads. And as has been said, all topics in Purgatory were new to me then.
I sign on today and we have three pages of threads and almost the same topics. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) Cheers!
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They took from their surroundings what was needed... and made of it something more.
—dialogue from Primer
Posts: 4769 | Registered: Nov 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Social media usage stats: http://www.statisticbrain.com/social-networking-statistics/
I do know that most young people may read some twitter tweets (I like this, it'd be a good ship name), they don't really use it in favour of whatsap, instagram, and similar, and if communicating to older people like their parents, facebook.
FB can't be a replacement because it is the same older demographic that participates.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
When I joined the ship in January, 2000, most of the Brits were university students and most of the Americans were older.
In those days Brits had to pay long-distance phone rates for internet service; this was very expensive. Many students had free internet access at their universities, so they could afford to post.
I don't remember when this situation changed, but the effect was noticeable.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
I only joined the Ship two years ago.
My observation would be that during those two years I have seen virtually the full gamut of human interaction: rigorous (scary!)debate, sharing of opinions (both trivial and fascinating), humour and attempted humour, humility and arrogance, compassion and care.
And a lot of grace to counter-act the tricky stuff.
The Ship is bound to have been influenced by the prevailing world cultures and will no doubt continue to change, with the challenge for all of us to adapt and it is a real challenge. I love the fact that it's full of people who make me think even though I might not find them easy to interact with.
I have found the patience of the old-hands as we newbies learn the ropes and often revisit well worn grooves particularly touching.
I think the Ship functions really well- kudos to the attitude of most shipmates and the incredible skill and care of the hosts and admins.
So although I don't comment unless I really have something to say, I'm very much on board and I'm going nowhere. Bit like in real life, once I'm committed it takes a lot to shift me!
Thanks one and all
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
In those days Brits had to pay long-distance phone rates for internet service; this was very expensive.
Just a correction, we either had to pay local phone rates, or some providers charged monthly fees and had free-phone numbers. It was still significantly more expensive than what US based Shipmates were paying, from my recollection. If they didn't have internet access through universities, probably beyond what most students would pay. But, for those of us in full time employment not too unreasonable. Broadband has both increased access speeds, and cut costs for all but the lightest users.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Banner Lady
Ship's Ensign
# 10505
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Posted
I only post less because life is now so busy.
Bloody retirement. I dream about lazy days lurking on the ship....
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Women in the church are not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be enjoyed.
Posts: 7080 | From: Canberra Australia | Registered: Oct 2005
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Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teufelchen:
I used to find the Ship very welcoming. I used to love participating here, and I accepted my role as host gladly. But now things just don't feel the same, and it's making me sad.
Has my depression changed me that much? Has the Ship changed? I don't know, but I'm feeling a lot less at home here.
t
My experience is that both the ship and I have changed. The ship is quieter and we don't seem to collect or respond to the posters who act like a whirlwind like we once did.
I read a lot, but do not post much. My views generally are better expressed by others and I don't feel the need for existence validation from the ship like I once did.
My theology has considerably changed and is now aligned with the prevailing nature of the ship which again gives me less to ask.
I enjoy the ship for the people. For those I have met, For those I wish to meet and those I read, and have read and have vicariously shared in bits of their stories. For the oldies, for those to whom I am still a newbie and for those who have come after.
The ship has become comfortable for me. I enjoy seeing shippies come back and remembering. I enjoy seeing names and sending prayers and good wishes.
Even to old acerbic ex-Hell Hosts. Give it time T. The community is different as are you. You can't go home to the same old home- but you can re-establish a new home in the same old place. And there is still gin, rusty farm implements and community.
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Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.
Posts: 3511 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
I spend far more time on Twitter these days. Yes 140 characters is tight, but there are blogs for expanding. I get from Twitter much of what I used to get from the ship, certainly in terms of friendships. Also my position is different, when I first found the ship (the Ungodly Fear Board in late 1999). I was studying abroad and trying to get my head round my liturgical, sacramental, hymnodic tendencies in an environment which tended to dismiss such things as being for churchgoers not proper Christians who were evangelical and possibly charismatic. Actually this was worse in my 'home' uni. The ship found me people who took their faith seriously and were liturgical. I then moved on in life and was in place I could be Anglo catholic, so relationship to the ship changed. Things have moved on again.
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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Amorya
Ship's tame galoot
# 2652
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Posted
I still read the Ship, but not as much as I used to.
I think the rise in using phones for internet has contributed to that. I can browse the Ship on my phone, but in order to read things I have to have it zoomed in enough that I can't see who posted. Which makes it a bit of an unfulfilling experience. Writing a post is nigh on impossible, so I don't bother, turning me into even more of a lurker than before.
The only time I sit in front of a laptop is at my desk at work, which also isn't conducive to much participation. (Ironically, working for Facebook I can get away with going on there quite easily!)
Sadly, unless the Ship changes forum software, there's not much can be done about this!
Posts: 2383 | From: Coventry | Registered: Apr 2002
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
A change of software might result in something that can be more easily read on a phone. But, it's not going to change the hardware with that fiddly touchscreen keyboard that makes typing well nigh impossible. I just about manage a one line update on Facebook, or post a photos with a few word comment. But anything more is just too much work, and that would include just about everything I post on the Ship.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Amorya
Ship's tame galoot
# 2652
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
A change of software might result in something that can be more easily read on a phone. But, it's not going to change the hardware with that fiddly touchscreen keyboard that makes typing well nigh impossible. I just about manage a one line update on Facebook, or post a photos with a few word comment. But anything more is just too much work, and that would include just about everything I post on the Ship.
True, it won't make it easy. But it could be a lot better than it is now. I might tap out a paragraph for a topic I felt strongly about, if it weren't for the fact that the posting box is wider than the phone's screen and I can't see the whole message I'm typing!
Posts: 2383 | From: Coventry | Registered: Apr 2002
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
I spend far more time on Twitter these days. Yes 140 characters is tight, but there are blogs for expanding. I get from Twitter much of what I used to get from the ship, certainly in terms of friendships. Also my position is different, when I first found the ship (the Ungodly Fear Board in late 1999). I was studying abroad and trying to get my head round my liturgical, sacramental, hymnodic tendencies in an environment which tended to dismiss such things as being for churchgoers not proper Christians who were evangelical and possibly charismatic. Actually this was worse in my 'home' uni. The ship found me people who took their faith seriously and were liturgical. I then moved on in life and was in place I could be Anglo catholic, so relationship to the ship changed. Things have moved on again.
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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