Thread: Teufelchen Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.
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Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on
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Fuck off you cunt. You don't get to make such accusations. Oh yeah, and I fucked your mum.
Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on
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![[Confused]](confused.gif)
A link for context?
Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on
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Classy! ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
Tubbs
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
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It's a comment on a little light anti-Semitism on the Kristallnacht 2.0 thread. Here's Gwai's take on Ad Orientem.
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Fuck off you cunt. You don't get to make such accusations. Oh yeah, and I fucked your mum.
So much for holding dear the historic values of Christianity ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
[ 26. February 2015, 15:20: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on
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Well, for what it's worth, AO: Based entirely on your views expounded on the Ship, I have come to believe you're a crypto-fascist. That's right: a fascist who isn't brave enough to come out and say "I'm a fascist."
So well done with that. If in fact, you're not a fascist, you might want to tone it down a little.
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
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IIRC, in Eric Mascall's memoirs there is a story of aa visit to an Orthodox monastery in Poland (I think) before the war, where Mascall was surprised to hear one aged monk suddenly come out with an urgent and heartfelt call for all Christians, Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, Anglican, to submerge their differences and unite....
(then came the punchline:)
....in order to duff up the Jews.
Ho hum.
Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Well, for what it's worth, AO: Based entirely on your views expounded on the Ship, I have come to believe you're a crypto-fascist. That's right: a fascist who isn't brave enough to come out and say "I'm a fascist."
So well done with that. If in fact, you're not a fascist, you might want to tone it down a little.
Demonstrate it then.
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on
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You have. I'm rather hoping that your future conduct will demonstrate otherwise, but I won't hold my breath.
Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
You have. I'm rather hoping that your future conduct will demonstrate otherwise, but I won't hold my breath.
Not good enough. If I am what you accuse me of then it should be easy enough to demonstrate that on this thread. Come on. I'm challenging you. If not. Shut your gob.
[ 26. February 2015, 16:01: Message edited by: Ad Orientem ]
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on
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Meh. I'm not doing your homework for you. To everyone else, feel free to click the 'posts' bit under any of AO's emissions to reveal his last 50 contributions.
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
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What is the Old Church Slavonic for 'Come and 'ave a go if you think you're 'ard enough', by the way?
Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Meh. I'm not doing your homework for you. To everyone else, feel free to click the 'posts' bit under any of AO's emissions to reveal his last 50 contributions.
I'm not the one making the accusation. So, if you want to continue making it, you're the one who is going to have to demonstrate that what you say is true. Otherwise, shut your big fat gob.
However, I fail to see how saying that a prayer, firmly founded in the scriptures, calling for the conversion of the Jews is good and orthodox and that it should continue to be prayed is antisemitic, unless of course someone has gone and changed the definition of the word.
[ 26. February 2015, 16:22: Message edited by: Ad Orientem ]
Posted by lowlands_boy (# 12497) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
IIRC, in Eric Mascall's memoirs there is a story of aa visit to an Orthodox monastery in Poland (I think) before the war, where Mascall was surprised to hear one aged monk suddenly come out with an urgent and heartfelt call for all Christians, Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, Anglican, to submerge their differences and unite....
(then came the punchline:)
....in order to duff up the Jews.
Ho hum.
When I started reading that I was thinking of Bernard Manning's take on it, in which Jews should be uniting with everyone else to have a go at Pakistanis. Although that was fine on prime time television with Michael Parkinson.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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This is Hell, Doc Tor doesn't have to do anything.
AO,I read your posting in the same way he does.
Using Jesus to ignore Jesus is probably the biggest sin a Christian can commit.
[ 26. February 2015, 16:29: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
Posted by Tortuf (# 3784) on
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Back when my father was alive one of the things he used to tell me all the time was:
quote:
Learn to quit while you are behind son.
I wish I had listened and absorbed the lesson at a deeper level.
Something about this thread brings that to mind. I suppose that could be said of many Hell calls.
Posted by Caissa (# 16710) on
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Prayers for the conversion of the Jews are at best tasteless and in the modern context, IMHO, anti-semitic.
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
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quote:
Caissa: Prayers for the conversion of the Jews are at best tasteless and in the modern context, IMHO, anti-semitic.
I agree. In the past, these prayers have been accompanied by violence against the Jews on various occasions. That makes them at least anti-semitic by association. Moreover, Jews have a religious identity, even though they aren't all religious. Ignoring that or worse, wishing to take that away from them, is anti-semitic too.
Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
This is Hell, Doc Tor doesn't have to do anything.
I suppose no one HAS to do anything, but if he isn't going to back up his accusations then he's just a dick and no one should take him seriously.
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
AO,I read your posting in the same way he does.
Using Jesus to ignore Jesus is probably the biggest sin a Christian can commit.
Again, show me how I have done that.
Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
Prayers for the conversion of the Jews are at best tasteless and in the modern context, IMHO, anti-semitic.
How? How is praying for the conversion of the Jews anti-semitic? Or are people confusing ethnicity with religion?
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I'm not the one making the accusation. So, if you want to continue making it, you're the one who is going to have to demonstrate that what you say is true. Otherwise, shut your big fat gob.
Oh, it's not an accusation.
Merely an observation, which, along with many other shipmates, appears self-evident.
[ 26. February 2015, 16:39: Message edited by: Doc Tor ]
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
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Well there's praying for the Jews and there's praying for the Jews, isn't there. For example, if we compare the pre-1955 Roman rite:
quote:
Let us pray also for the faithless Jews: that Almighty God may remove the veil from their hearts so that they too may acknowledge Jesus Christ our Lord. ('Amen' is not responded, nor is said 'Let us pray', or 'Let us kneel', or 'Arise', but immediately is said:) Almighty and eternal God, who dost not exclude from thy mercy even Jewish faithlessness: hear our prayers, which we offer for the blindness of that people; that acknowledging the light of thy Truth, which is Christ, they may be delivered from their darkness. Through the same our Lord Jesus Christ, who liveth and reigneth with thee in the unity of the Holy Spirit, God, for ever and ever. Amen
The 1662 BCP:
quote:
O merciful God, who hast made all men, and hatest nothing that thou hast made, nor wouldest the death of any sinner, but rather that he be converted and live; Have mercy upon all Jews, Turks, Infidels, and Heretics, and take from them all ignorance, hardness of heart, and contempt of thy Word; and so fetch them home, blessed Lord, to thy flock, that they may be saved among the remnant of the true Israelites, and be made one fold under one shepherd, Jesus Christ our Lord, who liveth and reigneth with thee and the Holy Spirit, one God, world without end. Amen
and the current RC Ordinary Form:
quote:
Let us pray also for the Jewish people, to whom the Lord our God spoke first, that he may grant them to advance in love of his name and in faithfulness to his covenant. (Prayer in silence. Then the Priest says:) Almighty ever-living God, who bestowed your promises on Abraham and his descendants, hear graciously the prayers of your Church, that the people you first made your own may attain the fullness of redemption. Through Christ our Lord. Amen
there's bit of a difference of tone there, isn't there? I can see that the pre-1955 version could be quite easily piss people off; the 1662 BCP collect is of its time but does not make a disticntion between Jews and others who are not (small o) orthodox Christians, and does say soemthign favourable about 'true Israelites', and I can't see how the current Ordinary form could be offensive to anyone who was not already determined to take offence.
( I can't find the Orthodox equivalents online.)
Posted by Eliab (# 9153) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I'm not the one making the accusation. So, if you want to continue making it, you're the one who is going to have to demonstrate that what you say is true. Otherwise, shut your big fat gob.
However, I fail to see how saying that a prayer, firmly founded in the scriptures, calling for the conversion of the Jews is good and orthodox and that it should continue to be prayed is antisemitic, unless of course someone has gone and changed the definition of the word.
Well there's this, where you suggest that a Christianity which affirms the continuing validity of the Old Covenant "deserves to die".
I don't think it is necessarily anti-Semitic for a Christian to deny the claims of the Jewish religion, or to maintain that Jews would be better off, and their prospects of salvation increased, if they converted. But when you express clear and unmistakable hatred and contempt for forms of Christianity that see more value in Judaism than you do, when you start suggesting that affirmation of Jewish hopes of salvation is a betrayal of the faith the saints, then yes, that does start to look a little bit anti-Semitic.
I'm prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that what you really hate and hold in contempt is non-Orthodox Christianity - because you've been demonstrating that since you joined and the Jew thing is relatively new. I think it's possible that you're just using our wishy-washy ecumenicalism towards the people who gave us Jesus as another reason for your continuing personal schism. It's possible you aren't really an anti-Semite, but just sound like one.
But you don't get to say that a religion that endorses Judaism deserves to die, and then act all outraged when someone takes that as anti-Semitic. That just makes you look silly.
Posted by Spike (# 36) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Meh. I'm not doing your homework for you. To everyone else, feel free to click the 'posts' bit under any of AO's emissions to reveal his last 50 contributions.
I'm not the one making the accusation. So, if you want to continue making it, you're the one who is going to have to demonstrate that what you say is true. Otherwise, shut your big fat gob.
Hang on a sec. You started a thread calling someone a cunt with no context whatsoever, yet you're asking others to back up accusations against yourself? That courtesy works two ways you know.
[ 26. February 2015, 16:50: Message edited by: Spike ]
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Oh yeah, and I fucked your mum.
This is pure evil and vile. ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I'm not the one making the accusation. So, if you want to continue making it, you're the one who is going to have to demonstrate that what you say is true. Otherwise, shut your big fat gob.
However, I fail to see how saying that a prayer, firmly founded in the scriptures, calling for the conversion of the Jews is good and orthodox and that it should continue to be prayed is antisemitic, unless of course someone has gone and changed the definition of the word.
Well there's this, where you suggest that a Christianity which affirms the continuing validity of the Old Covenant "deserves to die".
I don't think it is necessarily anti-Semitic for a Christian to deny the claims of the Jewish religion, or to maintain that Jews would be better off, and their prospects of salvation increased, if they converted. But when you express clear and unmistakable hatred and contempt for forms of Christianity that see more value in Judaism than you do, when you start suggesting that affirmation of Jewish hopes of salvation is a betrayal of the faith the saints, then yes, that does start to look a little bit anti-Semitic.
I'm prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that what you really hate and hold in contempt is non-Orthodox Christianity - because you've been demonstrating that since you joined and the Jew thing is relatively new. I think it's possible that you're just using our wishy-washy ecumenicalism towards the people who gave us Jesus as another reason for your continuing personal schism. It's possible you aren't really an anti-Semite, but just sound like one.
But you don't get to say that a religion that endorses Judaism deserves to die, and then act all outraged when someone takes that as anti-Semitic. That just makes you look silly.
Well, someone has redefined anti-semitism then. And yes, any Christianity that does not affirm "repent and be baptised" deserves to die.
Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
Prayers for the conversion of the Jews are at best tasteless and in the modern context, IMHO, anti-semitic.
How? How is praying for the conversion of the Jews anti-semitic? Or are people confusing ethnicity with religion?
It is entirely true that most of us who are Christians would consider that in some way it's better to be Christian than not (after all, if we believe it is better to be something else, why aren't we?). It therefore follows that praying that those who aren't Christians may be converted is to pray that they attain the better position that we also enjoy. Fair enough.
Why, then, single out one particular group to pray for?
If we were to pray that the "black people of the African continent would learn the civilised ways of the white people of Europe", then we would rightly be called racist.
If we were to pray that the "homosexual perverts would be healed and settle down into nice, heterosexual marriages", then we would rightly be called homophobic.
If we were to pray that the "faithless Jews would acknowledge Jesus Christ", then we would rightly be called anti-semitic.
Simples.
Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on
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Oh yeah! And as I said earlier, I hope you guys have thrown out the Gospel according to St. John out of your Bibles, because it's within that context (after the reading of the passion from that Gospel) that the prayers are said.
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
It is entirely true that most of us who are Christians would consider that in some way it's better to be Christian than not (after all, if we believe it is better to be something else, why aren't we?). It therefore follows that praying that those who aren't Christians may be converted is to pray that they attain the better position that we also enjoy. Fair enough.
Why, then, single out one particular group to pray for?
Which I suppose is where, allowing for the datedness of the language,
quote:
all Jews, Turks, Infidels, and Heretics
has the edge.
Mind you, there's nothing wrong with praying for a particular group on a particular day in itself: no-one says that you shouldn't pray for seafarers on Sea Sunday because you're not praying for busdrivers and railwaymen as well.
Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Oh yeah! And as I said earlier, I hope you guys have thrown out the Gospel according to St. John out of your Bibles, because it's within that context (after the reading of the passion from that Gospel) that the prayers are said.
Nah, we just have to read it without looking through the spectacles of anti-semitism.
You know, don't assume that when John uses the word "Jews" he's talking about an entire race of people for all time. Rather than the much more reasonable "those Jews who happened to be there supporting the decision to crucify Jesus".
Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
Prayers for the conversion of the Jews are at best tasteless and in the modern context, IMHO, anti-semitic.
How? How is praying for the conversion of the Jews anti-semitic? Or are people confusing ethnicity with religion?
It is entirely true that most of us who are Christians would consider that in some way it's better to be Christian than not (after all, if we believe it is better to be something else, why aren't we?). It therefore follows that praying that those who aren't Christians may be converted is to pray that they attain the better position that we also enjoy. Fair enough.
Why, then, single out one particular group to pray for?
If we were to pray that the "black people of the African continent would learn the civilised ways of the white people of Europe", then we would rightly be called racist.
If we were to pray that the "homosexual perverts would be healed and settle down into nice, heterosexual marriages", then we would rightly be called homophobic.
If we were to pray that the "faithless Jews would acknowledge Jesus Christ", then we would rightly be called anti-semitic.
Simples.
The is also a prayer for the conversion of pagans and also prayer for heretics and schismatics. So no, they are not singled out. So why are they prayed for? Precisely because of the patriarchs and the prophets etc. Because they received the prophecies which spoke of Christ, Christ himself preached to them, and therefore they have no excuse.
[ 26. February 2015, 17:16: Message edited by: Ad Orientem ]
Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Mind you, there's nothing wrong with praying for a particular group on a particular day in itself: no-one says that you shouldn't pray for seafarers on Sea Sunday because you're not praying for busdrivers and railwaymen as well.
Although it would be a bit odd to pray for seafarers on Sea Sunday, but never pray for any other group on any other day of the year.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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AO,
First, what Spike said.
Second, I really don't fancy trudging through your execrable output, assembling the context and placing an argument for which your reply will be "I'm right! 'Cause the bible"!
Third, have you noticed any defenders yet? Might be a reason for that. And, no, Evensong won't count.
Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Christ himself preached to them, and therefore have no excuse.
Interesting. Where are these Jews Christ Himself preached to? I've never met any. In fact, I've never met anyone that Christ Himself preached to.
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
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Fair enough. But I'd have thought that given the big narrative of Good Friday is in part about Christ's rejection by God's ancient people, or rather as you point outby those of them who were there at the time and by their religious leaders, it is an appropriate day to pray that the Jews may see God in what we understand to be his fuller revelation in Christ.
But this is insufficiently Hellish, I fear.
Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
AO,
First, what Spike said.
Second, I really don't fancy trudging through your execrable output, assembling the context and placing an argument for which your reply will be "I'm right! 'Cause the bible"!
Third, have you noticed any defenders yet? Might be a reason for that. And, no, Evensong won't count.
Why would I give a fuck if anyone defends me or not? I'm a grown man. I can defend myself.
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
I'm prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that what you really hate and hold in contempt is non-Orthodox Christianity - because you've been demonstrating that since you joined and the Jew thing is relatively new.
He joined in Feb 2013. By June he was saying this
quote:
I don't believe Judaism is equal with Christianity (being, as far as the ancient faith of the Church is concerned, an apostate sect, having rejected and put to death its Messiah and God).
So, I wouldn't cut him too much slack.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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Aliright, if you are so stupid as to miss the point, I shall endeavor to put it simply.
It isn't that you need a defender, it is that there is no defence.
Or, to fit your current level of debate: If everyone thinks you are an arse, you likely are.
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
AO,
First, what Spike said.
Second, I really don't fancy trudging through your execrable output, assembling the context and placing an argument for which your reply will be "I'm right! 'Cause the bible"!
Third, have you noticed any defenders yet? Might be a reason for that. And, no, Evensong won't count.
Why would I give a fuck if anyone defends me or not? I'm a grown man. I can defend myself.
You're not a prophet. You're a pillock.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
To be fair, Doc Tor, ISTM he also believes you to belong to an apostate sect. The farther you get from his sub-sect of orthodoxy, the more doomed you are.
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
:
Oh yes. AFAAOC the only proper Christians are him, the Patriarch of Moscow, and the Ecumenical Patriarch- and he's not too sure about those last two.
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Because they received the prophecies which spoke of Christ, Christ himself preached to them, and therefore they have no excuse.
quote:
Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
Romans 2:1 ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
Did you throw that bit out of your Bible?
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Because they received the prophecies which spoke of Christ, Christ himself preached to them, and therefore they have no excuse.
quote:
Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
Romans 2:1
Did you throw that bit out of your Bible?
Oooooooo, what fun! Let's throw Biblical curses!
Woe unto thee, Ad Orientem, thou breaker of the commandments, for you will be cast onto a steaming dung-heap!
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
:
Well when he said the Jews in particular had no excuse, that verse sprang immediately to mind because it says we are all without excuse. But do carry on.
[ 26. February 2015, 17:51: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Oh yes. AFAAOC the only proper Christians are him, the Patriarch of Moscow, and the Ecumenical Patriarch- and he's not too sure about those last two.
I don't hold myself to be the arbiter of the faith. I do, however, believe that the Orthodox Church is THE Church. Of course I do, otherwise I would never have bothered converting.
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
:
In any case, it's a strange way of thinking about evangelisation. You have to join unless you have an excuse?
Or does "the Jews don't have an excuse" mean that God will punish them more? Nope, nothing anti-semitic about that at all
Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
I'm prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that what you really hate and hold in contempt is non-Orthodox Christianity - because you've been demonstrating that since you joined and the Jew thing is relatively new.
He joined in Feb 2013. By June he was saying this
quote:
I don't believe Judaism is equal with Christianity (being, as far as the ancient faith of the Church is concerned, an apostate sect, having rejected and put to death its Messiah and God).
So, I wouldn't cut him too much slack.
Again, nothing particularly anti-semitic about that unless, as I pointed out before, you're in the habit of confusing ethnicity and religion.
Posted by Jack o' the Green (# 11091) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Because they received the prophecies which spoke of Christ
Hindsight is a wonderful thing. We don't have any suggestion that the disciples understood the prophecies at the time, never mind other Jews. In fact the Emmaus story suggests that the disciples didn't do so. It's a tad unfair then to expect others to do so. The scriptures used as prophecy all mean other things when put in context.
With a bit of luck, the Teacher of Righteousness will come back and damn you to hell for not following the Qumran Community which proved their correct interpretation of the Hebrew Bible through linking texts with contemporary events.
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
:
The more I hear that someone is confusing ethnicity and religion, the more I think that someone else is putting up a smokescreen.
Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
The more I hear that someone is confusing ethnicity and religion, the more I think that someone else is putting up a smokescreen.
Well, no. It's an important distinction. Anti-semitism has everything to do with ethnicity and very little to do with religion. To have a low opinion of Judaism in not necessarily to be anti-semitic.
[ 26. February 2015, 18:14: Message edited by: Ad Orientem ]
Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
In any case, it's a strange way of thinking about evangelisation. You have to join unless you have an excuse?
Or does "the Jews don't have an excuse" mean that God will punish them more? Nope, nothing anti-semitic about that at all
No excuse, as in they received the prophesies which spoke of Christ. If the pagans had no excuse, how much less of an excuse do the Jews have? Christ himself preached to them. And that is why in the old Roman Rite they are prayed for.
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Again, nothing particularly anti-semitic about that unless, as I pointed out before, you're in the habit of confusing ethnicity and religion.
Because promoting Jewish deicide always ends well.
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
:
quote:
Ad Orientem: No excuse, as in they received the prophesies which spoke of Christ. If the pagans had no excuse, how much less of an excuse do the Jews have? Christ himself preached to them.
You told us before why they have no excuse. What I was asking is what having no excuse (or less excuse than others) means in this case.
Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on
:
And, I still want to know why contemporary Jews are at fault for something their great-great-(insert lots more greats)-grandparents did.
Contemporary Jews haven't heard Christ preach to them. That is therefore irrelevant.
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
:
In response to LeRoc:
Especially in the light of Romans 2, where Paul is arguing that none of us have any excuse, before going on in chapter 3 to saying that the Jews having the very words of God was to their advantage and that quote:
Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin
(Rom 3:9).
[ 26. February 2015, 18:46: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posted by Eliab (# 9153) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
I'm prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that what you really hate and hold in contempt is non-Orthodox Christianity - because you've been demonstrating that since you joined and the Jew thing is relatively new.
He joined in Feb 2013. By June he was saying this
You win.
Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Ad Orientem: No excuse, as in they received the prophesies which spoke of Christ. If the pagans had no excuse, how much less of an excuse do the Jews have? Christ himself preached to them.
You told us before why they have no excuse. What I was asking is what having no excuse (or less excuse than others) means in this case.
According to St. Matthew our Lord put it thus:
Woe to thee, Corozain, woe to thee, Bethsaida: for if in Tyre and Sidon had been wrought the miracles that have been wrought in you, they had long ago done penance in sackcloth and ashes. But I say unto you, it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment, than for you. And thou Capharnaum, shalt thou be exalted up to heaven? thou shalt go down even unto hell. For if in Sodom had been wrought the miracles that have been wrought in thee, perhaps it had remained unto this day. But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
:
quote:
Ad Orientem: According to St. Matthew our Lord put it thus:
So, God will punish the Jews more. Yup, anti-semitic.
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Why would I give a fuck if anyone defends me or not? I'm a grown man. I can defend myself.
Better use both hands, you bad, bad grown man. We pray for your conversion from excrement to douchebag.
Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Ad Orientem: According to St. Matthew our Lord put it thus:
So, God will punish the Jews more. Yup, anti-semitic.
St. Matthew and our Lord were anti-semitic then.
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
:
quote:
Ad Orientem: St. Matthew and our Lord were anti-semitic then.
There are different ways of reading and interpreting the Bible. You choose to read it in an anti-semitic way.
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on
:
AO, I'm really glad you aren't the only example of Orthodox Church membership on the Ship.
And the insults in your OP? Seriously???!! Seriously!
Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
[QUOTE]Well, someone has redefined anti-Semitism then. And yes, any Christianity that does not affirm "repent and be baptised" deserves to die.
And that's a traditional attitude towards other Christians so it's not anti-Christian. And here I thought it was the Christians who had affirmed "repent and be baptized" that you were supposed to wish a speedy translation to their reward in the afterlife...
![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on
:
Liturgy Wanker has anti-semitic previous.
Note also his talk of "the influence of the Judeo-masonic lodge" in this bile.
Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on
:
He's also stated that there shouldn't be international action against a nation that attempts to annex territory from another nation by force, killing and displacing millions of civilians.
Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
He's also stated that there shouldn't be international action against a nation that attempts to annex territory from another nation by force, killing and displacing millions of civilians.
That's a matter of opinion. It ignores the hypocrisy of the West. It also assumes that the US propaganda machine is more reliable than Russia's, but we know the US are proven liars.
[ 26. February 2015, 21:13: Message edited by: Ad Orientem ]
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on
:
Yes, but it's your opinion, which is why Alan brought it up.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
He's also stated that there shouldn't be international action against a nation that attempts to annex territory from another nation by force, killing and displacing millions of civilians.
That's a matter of opinion. It also ignores the hypocrisy of the West and that the US propaganda machine is anymore reliable than Russia's.
Not an either or. One can vilify the West for the Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan whilst still thinking Putin and his government are evil for their actions.
Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
He's also stated that there shouldn't be international action against a nation that attempts to annex territory from another nation by force, killing and displacing millions of civilians.
That's a matter of opinion. It also ignores the hypocrisy of the West and that the US propaganda machine is anymore reliable than Russia's.
Not an either or. One can vilify the West for the Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan whilst still thinking Putin and his government are evil for their actions.
Evil? When the Putin regime has has killed hundreds of thousands of civilians come back and I'll reconsider my opinion.
Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on
:
Why wait for 100s of thousands of civilians to be killed? Aren't the thousands already killed enough? Or, do you want to just appease Putin? After the Crimea and eastern Ukraine, when do we start to act to try and stop his expansion? When he annexes the Baltic States? Maybe when he sets his sights on bits of Finland.
Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Why wait for 100s of thousands of civilians to be killed? Aren't the thousands already killed enough? Or, do you want to just appease Putin? After the Crimea and eastern Ukraine, when do we start to act to try and stop his expansion? When he annexes the Baltic States? Maybe when he sets his sights on bits of Finland.
That's just American scaremongering. It isn't happening. America is getting ready to oil the war machine. You can tell from the rhetoric. They haven't started a new war for a few years now, you see.
Posted by Josephine (# 3899) on
:
O Lord and Master of my life,
Take from me the spirit of sloth, despair, lust of power, and idle talk.
But give rather the spirit of chastity, humility, patience, and love to thy servant.
Yea, O Lord and King, grant me to see my own transgressions and not to judge my brother,
For thou art blessed unto ages of ages. Amen.
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on
:
Finland has it all, including shipmate An Orifice.
Posted by Teufelchen (# 10158) on
:
Firstly, I'd like to thank you, Ad Orientem, for a lovely dose of nostalgia there. I've not been insulted quite so crudely and incompetently since I left school.
But then crude and incompetent is your style, isn't it? Your politics are brutal and naive. Your theology and scripture criticism are so shallow a rat couldn't drown in them. And your concern for your fellow humans has clearly passed me (and everyone else) by entirely.
I've recently returned to the Ship after a long hiatus. Discovering you here was like coming home from a long holiday to find the cat has killed something and dragged into the bed for one to find.
But I didn't come down here to indulge in sparky rhetoric. Not on a thread addressed to me by a loathsome crypto-fascist like you.
And that's the crux of the matter. Because despite your unconvincing and repetitive denials, a crypto-fascist is what you are.
I was going to type a lengthy post full of specific citations from old threads proving this, but several things prevent me:
1) You already derailed a thread about the murders of Jews, and made it all about your One True Holy and Apostolic Opinions.
2) I have spent the lifetime of this thread so far doing better and more useful things, including literally clearing up shit.
3) Other Shippies who have been here enduring your presence while I have been ashore have done a good job in digging up some of your worst outpourings already.
4) I already discovered, while looking for something else, that you approve of the Russian 'anti gay propaganda' law. I am a proud bisexual, and I don't particularly want to entertain your loathsome opinions in any further detail on this topic.
5) You've repeatedly said vile things about Jews while insisting that it's about Judaism as a faith, rather than Jews ethnically speaking; conversely you claim that antisemitism is always about Jewishness as ethnicity. This is unconvincing. It is unconvincing firstly because you are an avowed supporter of an ethnonationalist political party. Secondly and more importantly: the murders we were discussing in the 'Kristallnacht' thread did not happen at secular Jewish resorts in the Borscht Belt. They happened at a kosher shop and a synagogue: places Jews are to be found fulfilling their religious duty. This isn't a coincidence. A thirdly, I'll believe what Jews tell me about antisemtism rather than the unsupported opinion of someone who wants to see Judaism extirpated. And Jews tell me antisemitism is indiscriminate as to whether it's about race or creed: it can be either or both, depending on the bigot.
You're a pathetic case, AO. You rant and rave about how sainted Popes were heretics, but you haven't the talent to string together a decent argument about anything. Hence why you descended to such risibly inept mockery in your OP here.
So I think I'll go back to cleaning up shit, which is more morally uplifting that talking to you.
t
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Why wait for 100s of thousands of civilians to be killed? Aren't the thousands already killed enough? Or, do you want to just appease Putin? After the Crimea and eastern Ukraine, when do we start to act to try and stop his expansion? When he annexes the Baltic States? Maybe when he sets his sights on bits of Finland.
You do not understand, Alan. As long as Putin's lickspittle is head of the RO church, AO will defend him.
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on
:
I'm not sure how Putin clambered onto this thread. But, given Finland's many past problems with Russia and the Soviet Union, I'm surprised any Finn wants anything to do with Putin and Russia.
Unless maybe they have Russian ancestry?
(That's a Finnish gov't site, BTW.)
Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on
:
AO: If some religious group -- Scientologists, say (do they pray?), or Bahais (spelling?) -- were to pray for the prompt mass conversion of Christians to Scientology or Bahai, thereby being rescued from the error of their ways, would you consider that anti-Christian?
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
I think all Orthodox converts in northern climes go through a "Russland Russland über alles" stage. Most of us grow out of it, although for some it takes longer than for others.
"Lickspittle" is an exceptionally polite way of describing the MP's relationship with Putin.
Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
AO: If some religious group -- Scientologists, say (do they pray?), or Bahais (spelling?) -- were to pray for the prompt mass conversion of Christians to Scientology or Bahai, thereby being rescued from the error of their ways, would you consider that anti-Christian?
No. I couldn't care less. I don't believe their prayers have any value.
Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I'm not sure how Putin clambered onto this thread. But, given Finland's many past problems with Russia and the Soviet Union, I'm surprised any Finn wants anything to do with Putin and Russia.
Unless maybe they have Russian ancestry?
(That's a Finnish gov't site, BTW.)
Well, it's very easy to be hardline when you don't live next to them and do very little business with them. Russians in general have a very high opinion of Finns and Finland and if only our leaders, instead of sucking up to the Americans, could sort out our relations with our eastern neighbour then we would have a very good friend and business partner indeed.
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
:
quote:
Ad Orientum:
Why would I give a fuck if anyone defends me or not? I'm a grown man. I can defend myself.
Only you're not very good at it, are you?
I really want to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're either drunk or twelve - or both - but I have this sinking feeling that you are in fact one of those poor, clueless little idiots that really needs to be locked away and not allowed to breed. With outdated ignorance like yours we can at least console ourselves that your kind have a habit of dying off and becoming an interesting footnote of history and a warning to new generations.
If nothing else, at least the internet keeps you masturbating safely alone and not organzing with the other cretinous troglodytes.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Well, it's very easy to be hardline when you don't live next to them and do very little business with them.
Those Finns who fought bravely and heartily against the U.S.S.R would be ever so proud of you.
Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I don't hold myself to be the arbiter of the faith. I do, however, believe that the Orthodox Church is THE Church. Of course I do, otherwise I would never have bothered converting.
So you are an apostate Roman Catholic? Do you think the Roman Catholic church should still do the traditional things they used to do to apostates?
Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Well, it's very easy to be hardline when you don't live next to them and do very little business with them.
Those Finns who fought bravely and heartily against the U.S.S.R would be ever so proud of you.
And what would you know about them? My grandfather was one of them. And if in case you hadn't noticed the USSR doesn't exist anymore.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
You know, I had thought you were so busy being a bigot that you didn't take the time to think. I am coming to the realization that you are a bigot because you do not have the ability to think.
Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on
:
And I've come to the realisation you're a cocksucker, so what?
Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on
:
I'm a cock sucker, so what?
I do look forward to your neighbors reaction when your hero Putin decided to take a bite out of Finland to distract the Russians from the collapse of his kleptocracy. I doubt they'll share your hatred of NATO as he starts arming oppressed Russian separatists in Finland.
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
And I've come to the realisation you're a cocksucker, so what?
Comet's guess that you are 12 years old is looking very good right now.
Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
AO: If some religious group -- Scientologists, say (do they pray?), or Bahais (spelling?) -- were to pray for the prompt mass conversion of Christians to Scientology or Bahai, thereby being rescued from the error of their ways, would you consider that anti-Christian?
No. I couldn't care less. I don't believe their prayers have any value.
Hmm. So if I understand this correctly, only Christian (by your definition of that term, of course) have efficacy. So members of other religious groups pray in vain, regardless of what they pray for.
Christian* (that is AO-brand) prayers, otoh, are effective, because they're Christian. How do we explain, then, not only the ongoing existence of all these other religious groups, but also the fact that Islam is apparently the fastest-growing of such groups globally?
Or do you attribute this apparent failure of "convert-the-heathen" prayers to the apostasy of all those reformist popes?
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on
:
AO--
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I'm not sure how Putin clambered onto this thread. But, given Finland's many past problems with Russia and the Soviet Union, I'm surprised any Finn wants anything to do with Putin and Russia.
Unless maybe they have Russian ancestry?
(That's a Finnish gov't site, BTW.)
Well, it's very easy to be hardline when you don't live next to them and do very little business with them. Russians in general have a very high opinion of Finns and Finland and if only our leaders, instead of sucking up to the Americans, could sort out our relations with our eastern neighbour then we would have a very good friend and business partner indeed.
Ok, please help an ignorant Westerner figure this out:
--Putin is ex-KGB, wanted to join it, and evidently liked it. (Washington Post, 2000)
-- "Vladimir Putin ‘wants to regain Finland’ for Russia, adviser says." (Independent, UK, 2014)
From the Independent:
quote:
According to Andrej Illarionov, the President’s chief economic adviser from 2000 to 2005, Mr Putin seeks to create “historical justice” with a return to the days of the last Tsar, Nicholas II, and the Soviet Union under Stalin.
Speaking to the Swedish newspaper Svenska Dagbladet, Mr Illarionov warned that Russia will argue that the granting of independence to Finland in 1917 was an act of “treason against national interests”.
“Putin’s view is that he protects what belongs to him and his predecessors,” Mr Illarionov said.
“Parts of Georgia, Ukraine, Belarus, the Baltic States and Finland are states where Putin claims to have ownership.
He added: “The West’s leaders seem, from what they say, entirely to have forgotten that there are some leaders in the world who want to conquer other countries.”
--I think he may be in mid-life crisis: his divorce became final last spring; he wants to put all the Russias, etc., back together; and I suspect he really wants to be tsar of all of them.
And you want to be friends??? Be careful what you wish for.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
And I've come to the realisation you're a cocksucker, so what?
This is hilarious, sad and homophobic. And twelve year olds everywhere are groaning in shame from being compared to you.
Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
No. I couldn't care less. I don't believe their prayers have any value.
Um... just wondering... in your belief, whose prayers do have any value? Do those of (non-Christian) Jews? Muslims? Protestants? Roman Catholics?
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
And I've come to the realisation you're a cocksucker, so what?
So you confirm, once again, that invective is no substitute for reasoned, evidence-backed argument.
Posted by Eliab (# 9153) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Well, someone has redefined anti-semitism then. And yes, any Christianity that does not affirm "repent and be baptised" deserves to die.
Except that that is simply not what you said. You said that a Christianity which taught various things including the idea that the covenant to the Jews was still valid deserved to die - nothing about repentance or baptism at all. All the ideas that you attributed to this worthless form of Christianity were plainly straw-man arguments which its hard to take seriously as characterising any significant part of Christendom, EXCEPT the bit about the Jews. The view that the Jews still have a valid covenant is something that many Christians do actually believe (and support with scriptural arguments), and therefore, to my eyes, at least, appeared to be the focus of your attack. Particularly on a thread discussing anti-Jewish prejudice.
Your words could be fairly interpreted as not just the denial of the proposition that Judaism still 'works' spiritually, but as an expression of the view that it is a necessary part of Christianity. It is not especially unfair on you to take your words to mean that it would be better for there to be no Christianity at all, for no one to know or try to follow Jesus in any way, for the faith of the Church to perish from the earth, than for Christianity to affirm that the Jews still have a valid covenant with God.
That's not merely a theological position. That's not just saying that Judaism has been superseded. That's a professed Christian saying that he would rather his religion died than that it was inclusive of the Jews - and that suggests hate.
You may not actually believe that. I hope you don't. However given that you said those words, and haven't said a single thing to alleviate the impression of hostility and contempt that has consistently marked your engagement on these boards*, you don't have any just cause for complaint if you are taken to be an anti-Semite.
(*I accept, mostly directed at other Christians, but, as has been demonstrated, not just us, but sometimes Jews as well).
Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on
:
Eliab,
What I actually said was that any form of Christianity which says that non-Christians, including the Jews, need not convert deserves to die. That does not mean that I want or believe that Christianity will ever die. But that's because I believe Christ founded a visible Church and that that same Church exists today and will continue to until our Lord returns; and that that same Church confesses the same faith that was received and handed down by the Apostles. Why? Because our Lord said that the gates of hell will not prevail against it and that the Holy Spirit would lead it into all truth. I take that promise quite literally.
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on
:
Respectfully, I've never really understood the idea that everything's been handed down properly, right decisions made, etc.
I can see that it's *attractive* to believe that, and gives the believer a sense of certainty. But it doesn't fit with my experience, knowledge, and observation of humans and our decision-making. And considering all the *known* sins and screw-ups within and between churches/denominations, clergy, lay people, etc., I see no evidence that everything's come down to us the right way round. People mess up. And if God's trying to make sure we get things right, She's working through people.
Posted by Josephine (# 3899) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
No. I couldn't care less. I don't believe their prayers have any value.
Um... just wondering... in your belief, whose prayers do have any value? Do those of (non-Christian) Jews? Muslims? Protestants? Roman Catholics?
God heard the prayers of Cornelius the Centurion while Cornelius was still a pagan. St. Peter initially wasn't too happy with that, either.
Ad Orientem, have you checked your calendar lately? Please do. It is Great Lent. If you missed the Gospel readings for the pre-Lenten Sundays, you might want to go back and do some quick reviews. The Gospel of the Publican and the Pharisee comes particularly to mind.
And after you've done that, please go to your prayer corner and say your prayers.
Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on
:
...and check in with your confessor.
Posted by Leaf (# 14169) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
... after you've done that, please go to your prayer corner and say your prayers.
Only Josephine can manage to sound like Reverend Mother and Clint Eastwood at the same time.
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
... after you've done that, please go to your prayer corner and say your prayers.
Only Josephine can manage to sound like Reverend Mother and Clint Eastwood at the same time.
Quotes file.
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
And I've come to the realisation you're a cocksucker, so what?
Oh yes, taste and see that Ad Orientem is good. My what wondrous things you've learned by your conversion.
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Fuck off you cunt. You don't get to make such accusations. Oh yeah, and I fucked your mum.
This reminds me of the motorist who was so incensed about my failure as a cyclist to stop at a red light that he took off after me and tried to run me down. When he was caught by the police he claimed to be acting in the name of road safety.
So here we have, in defense of the Faith delivered unto the Saints, a rather stereotypical, unpleasant and misogynistic insult. Which is really saying something among these pagans and heathens. And cannot be what God wants from us.
You could learn something about yourself here.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
Fat chance of that. He's been very consistant.
He is a homophobic, misogynist, at-least–borderline anti-Semite bigot.
If this is after conversion, how bad was he before?
Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on
:
Why waste your time trying to reason with the wilfully stupid? Some people have a self determination to remain lost that is nothing short of astonishing and they will even use their faith as cement.
Posted by Siegfried (# 29) on
:
Having waded through the original thread, you can clearly see where, on page 3, AD vanished up his own anus.
Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
No. I couldn't care less. I don't believe their prayers have any value.
Um... just wondering... in your belief, whose prayers do have any value? Do those of (non-Christian) Jews? Muslims? Protestants? Roman Catholics?
God heard the prayers of Cornelius the Centurion while Cornelius was still a pagan. St. Peter initially wasn't too happy with that, either.
Ad Orientem, have you checked your calendar lately? Please do. It is Great Lent. If you missed the Gospel readings for the pre-Lenten Sundays, you might want to go back and do some quick reviews. The Gospel of the Publican and the Pharisee comes particularly to mind.
And after you've done that, please go to your prayer corner and say your prayers.
Oh, I agree about God hearing people's prayers--but I am (and after this post, still) wondering what Ad Orientem believes about them. I have an uncomfortable suspicion--please, Ad Orientem, tell me it's wrong ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
-- that you (Ad Orientem) will tell me that you believe God does not listen to the prayers of Protestants or Roman Catholics or anyone but big-O Orthodox, because everyone else is (and is willfully) schismatic, or something. Forgive me, but that's the attitude I perceive in some of your posts. I hope I am wrong.
I find this very well-said, Josephine--and for my part, it does strike me that perhaps the whole matter of the Publican and the Pharisee might apply to some of us who are also patting ourselves on the back for not acting/thinking/posting like Ad Orientem as well, myself included. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
[ 27. February 2015, 19:42: Message edited by: ChastMastr ]
Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
He is a homophobic, misogynist, at-least–borderline anti-Semite bigot.
No borderline about it.
Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
No. I couldn't care less. I don't believe their prayers have any value.
Um... just wondering... in your belief, whose prayers do have any value? Do those of (non-Christian) Jews? Muslims? Protestants? Roman Catholics?
God heard the prayers of Cornelius the Centurion while Cornelius was still a pagan. St. Peter initially wasn't too happy with that, either.
Ad Orientem, have you checked your calendar lately? Please do. It is Great Lent. If you missed the Gospel readings for the pre-Lenten Sundays, you might want to go back and do some quick reviews. The Gospel of the Publican and the Pharisee comes particularly to mind.
And after you've done that, please go to your prayer corner and say your prayers.
Oh, I agree about God hearing people's prayers--but I am (and after this post, still) wondering what Ad Orientem believes about them. I have an uncomfortable suspicion--please, Ad Orientem, tell me it's wrong -- that you (Ad Orientem) will tell me that you believe God does not listen to the prayers of Protestants or Roman Catholics or anyone but big-O Orthodox, because everyone else is (and is willfully) schismatic, or something. Forgive me, but that's the attitude I perceive in some of your posts. I hope I am wrong.
I find this very well-said, Josephine--and for my part, it does strike me that perhaps the whole matter of the Publican and the Pharisee might apply to some of us who are also patting ourselves on the back for not acting/thinking/posting like Ad Orientem as well, myself included.
I'm not sure that God listens to non-Christian prayers. Certainly not of pagans. The example that was given was that of scientologists, and I certainly don't believe that God listens to their prayers. They're a weird cult.
Posted by Patdys (# 9397) on
:
Your god doesn't seem to understand grace.
My understanding of god, is that God created all, listens to all, desires relationship with all.
To argue 'I am less wrong than you' seems to be splitting hairs.
Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Patdys:
To argue 'I am less wrong than you' seems to be splitting hairs.
But that's not what I'm arguing at all. I don't believe that the Apostolic faith is "less wrong" than anyone else. I believe that it is the truth, as our Lord promised.
Posted by Patdys (# 9397) on
:
Sure, we all believe we are right.
What makes you righter than me?
Or to put in another way. I don't believe every tenet you hold as truth too be true. Or anyone's, including myself. Hence I am rather a fan of grace- because I believe we all need it.
[ 28. February 2015, 00:39: Message edited by: Patdys ]
Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on
:
Of course we all need grace. That anything exists at all is proof of God's grace, I would argue. I just don't believe that faith is relative.
Posted by Teufelchen (# 10158) on
:
AO, if you've a compassionate bone in your body, get the fuck out of the 'Kristallnacht 2.0' thread. Your posts there are poisoning it.
t
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on
:
When I was a kid, some people at my fund. church thought that the first prayer God listens to is when the person prays to become a Christian.
I think that's utter, utter crap. I'm a universalist. But, even with a really strict view of salvation, etc., what about the sheep & goats clause? People who haven't heard? God's going to just plug Her ears?
If God doesn't listen to everyone's prayers, wishes, doubts, etc., how are people ever supposed to make it to the point of that conversion prayer?
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
:
quote:
Golden Key: When I was a kid, some people at my fund. church thought that the first prayer God listens to is when the person prays to become a Christian.
I've never prayed to become a Christian. I've never converted.
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on
:
LeRoc--
No worries. It's just that fund/evo churches strongly emphasize a conscious, personal decision. (AKA "asking Jesus into your heart".)
This creates a conundrum--and some deep worry--for many people who grow up fund/evo, but never made a specific decision. They wonder if they're really Christians, or if they're deceiving themselves and going to hell.
I made a personal decision when I was very young, all on my own. But many's the time I prayed, "if I'm not already saved..."
Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Teufelchen:
AO, if you've a compassionate bone in your body, get the fuck out of the 'Kristallnacht 2.0' thread. Your posts there are poisoning it.
He is poisoning it and he's not going to leave, just keep asserting the same lies. However much that preempts the discussion of the thread, it is educational for those who wonder about the origins of anti-Semitism in Europe. I see him as a nasty 17th century Christian of the sort modern Christians like to forget existed.
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
:
I will never for the life of me understand why people just don't ignore someone who is wrecking a thread like that.
Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I'm not sure that God listens to non-Christian prayers. Certainly not of pagans. The example that was given was that of scientologists, and I certainly don't believe that God listens to their prayers. They're a weird cult.
Okay, what about the rest of them?
quote:
Um... just wondering... in your belief, whose prayers do have any value? Do those of (non-Christian) Jews? Muslims? Protestants? Roman Catholics?
Posted by Josephine (# 3899) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I'm not sure that God listens to non-Christian prayers. Certainly not of pagans.
God heard the prayers of Cornelius the centurion.
I understand that the Orthodox Church in Finland doesn't follow either the Old Calendar or the New Calendar. Is it Lent there yet? When you talk to your priest about your Lenten fast, you might talk with him about the way you talk to people on the Internet. Fasting from certain kinds of words might do your soul as much good as fasting from meat and dairy.
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on
:
Josephine ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Queen of Hell, indeed! ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
How can God not listen to anything? Does he stick his fingers in his ears?
Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
[qb] I'm not sure that God listens to non-Christian prayers. Certainly not of pagans.
I thought Christians worshipped an omniscient God. I didn't know he was partially deaf.
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
No worries. It's just that fund/evo churches strongly emphasize a conscious, personal decision. (AKA "asking Jesus into your heart".)
This creates a conundrum--and some deep worry--for many people who grow up fund/evo, but never made a specific decision. They wonder if they're really Christians, or if they're deceiving themselves and going to hell. <snip>
As someone who grew up as a fairly traditional Christian I have been told by more than one fundie / evo Christian that I am not a Christian for similar reasons.
Ad Orientem - you are not only representing your particular version of Orthodox Christianity on the Ship but also you are the only active Finnish poster at the moment. Do you think you're giving anyone an impression of Finland and the Finnish people that any of your countrymen or women would acknowledge or be proud to own? Certainly it's not the impression that I have gained from the Finnish friends I have made through the photography boards (I've even met some of them). Or is it just a quirk of the 1%¹ of Finnish people who are Orthodox?
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
:
C'mon, are there really so many shipmates stupid enough to draw conclusions about Finland based on one person's posts? Esa-Pekka Salonen is Finnish, but I don't think all Finns are conductors and composers. Värttinä is Finnish, but I don't think all Finnish women are in folk music bands.
And I don't think all Finns are crypto-fascist anti-semitic assholes like AO.
Posted by QLib (# 43) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I'm not sure how Putin clambered onto this thread. But, given Finland's many past problems with Russia and the Soviet Union, I'm surprised any Finn wants anything to do with Putin and Russia.
Unless maybe they have Russian ancestry?
I have a Finnish relative with whom I share a Russian ancestry. As she understands it, Finland's attitude to Russia is: 'this is our neighbour, and we just have to live with that.' She agrees that's the only sensible policy and so do I.
FWIW I, too, think Putin is an evil bastard, but that doesn't mean that there aren't two sides to the Ukraine story. Both sides have done things that are pretty hard to justify.
Otherwise, Ad Orientem, what everyone else said.
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I certainly don't believe that God listens to their prayers.
And would God have been able to hear your OP?
Posted by Athrawes (# 9594) on
:
When I read the OP, all I could think of was Darth Vader saying, "Luke! I am your father!" I doubt that was the effect AO was trying to achieve.
Posted by agingjb (# 16555) on
:
We can be sure that the OP was posted by someone conscious of the presence of the Holy Spirit, about Whom the poster has very precise beliefs.
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Esa-Pekka Salonen is Finnish, but I don't think all Finns are conductors and composers.
But all the ones anyone's ever heard of are- unless they're racing drivers ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
:
quote:
mousethief: How can God not listen to anything? Does he stick his fingers in his ears?
If you pray really loud, He goes "lalalala" too.
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
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Two Finns walk into a bar and order a couple of Lonkeros. As they get their order, one says "kippis" to the other.
The latter growls back "are we here to talk, or to drink?"
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Esa-Pekka Salonen is Finnish, but I don't think all Finns are conductors and composers.
But all the ones anyone's ever heard of are- unless they're racing drivers
I know a Finnish author. He's nice. He looks like an elf. I still can't pronounce his surname though.
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Esa-Pekka Salonen is Finnish, but I don't think all Finns are conductors and composers.
But all the ones anyone's ever heard of are- unless they're racing drivers
Clearly the mobile phone designers, champion wife-carriers and air guitarists aren't well known outside Finland.
Posted by Teufelchen (# 10158) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
I will never for the life of me understand why people just don't ignore someone who is wrecking a thread like that.
Because the Ship is more than just its active users, and it does the lurkers no good to let actively antisemitic views go unchallenged. But I admit that I was dismayed by just how quickly AO's level of argumentation dropped to describing my input as 'bollocks'. It's the mixture of vileness and incompetence which is so especially aggravating.
Another thought: 'Just ignore it' is fine advice to someone like me who doesn't have to live with the consequences of antisemitism on a daily basis. But many people don't have that privilege. I'm less able to shrug off homo/biphobia, or bigotry against people with disabilities. That shit actively contributes to making my daily life harder. It's not a huge leap of imagination to see that other forms of bigotry have the same effect on the people they target. I prefer not to pass by on the other side.
t
Posted by Teufelchen (# 10158) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Esa-Pekka Salonen is Finnish, but I don't think all Finns are conductors and composers.
But all the ones anyone's ever heard of are- unless they're racing drivers
Clearly the mobile phone designers, champion wife-carriers and air guitarists aren't well known outside Finland.
A folk-metal band and the world's greatest sniper also spring to mind.
t
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
:
quote:
Teufelchen: A folk-metal band and the world's greatest sniper also spring to mind.
A certain Finnish girl I met on the slopes of Mount Snowdon long ago ...
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
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Thanks. Just read about Simo Häyhä, the sniper. 500 men shot dead, in just over three (mostly dark) months is unreal.
Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on
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For a moment I read Sami Hyypiä there.
Anyway, Teufelchen is right about standing up to Liturgy Wanker. Anti-semitism won't go away if we ignore it.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Teufelchen:
Another thought: 'Just ignore it' is fine advice to someone like me who doesn't have to live with the consequences of antisemitism on a daily basis. But many people don't have that privilege. I'm less able to shrug off homo/biphobia, or bigotry against people with disabilities. That shit actively contributes to making my daily life harder. It's not a huge leap of imagination to see that other forms of bigotry have the same effect on the people they target. I prefer not to pass by on the other side.
"Just ignore it" as advice about hate that can lead to violence against minorities is majority privilege talking. The minority can't just ignore it.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
I wonder what percentage of the Orthodox population of Finland is actually comprised of people of Russian descent who immigrated or got left behind after the various invasions and occupations, versus people whose ancestry is long-line Finnish. I'm thinking it may not be terribly surprising for an Orthodox Finn to be nonchalant about the Russians invading. It's their comrades.
Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I'm a grown man.
Well, obviously we'd have to check with Teufelchen's mother about that. Wouldn't we?
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Teufelchen:
Another thought: 'Just ignore it' is fine advice to someone like me who doesn't have to live with the consequences of antisemitism on a daily basis. But many people don't have that privilege. I'm less able to shrug off homo/biphobia, or bigotry against people with disabilities. That shit actively contributes to making my daily life harder. It's not a huge leap of imagination to see that other forms of bigotry have the same effect on the people they target. I prefer not to pass by on the other side.
"Just ignore it" as advice about hate that can lead to violence against minorities is majority privilege talking. The minority can't just ignore it.
Depends on the context.
Violence against minorities is helped by rhetoric, but much more so by social support of people in the minority. You can spend your time attempting to soften the cranium of some fatally entrenched blockhead of a anti semite, or you can call a local synagogue, ask if you can join them on their next work day, and help pretty up their garden.
On SOF, the latter would translate into stepping over the inflammatory, antagonistic post and joining voices with the reasonable people. That can be a powerful statement in and of itself.
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
:
I seriously doubt that standing up to AO on the boards is going to make a bit of difference. It's certainly not going to change his mind.
quote:
Originally posted by Teufelchen:
Another thought: 'Just ignore it' is fine advice to someone like me who doesn't have to live with the consequences of antisemitism on a daily basis. But many people don't have that privilege. I'm less able to shrug off homo/biphobia, or bigotry against people with disabilities. That shit actively contributes to making my daily life harder. It's not a huge leap of imagination to see that other forms of bigotry have the same effect on the people they target. I prefer not to pass by on the other side.
Ignoring AO's bullshit isn't necessarily passing by on the other side. Refusing to engage with him entirely shuts him out of the conversation. I think once he has posted one anti-semitic thing on a thread, one person should point out that he has done so, and from there on everyone should scroll right past his posts and not give him the time of day or space in their heads. His posts are beneath contempt -- and should be treated as beneath our notice. Engaging with him only gives him an excuse for posting more bullshit.
[ 28. February 2015, 15:24: Message edited by: RuthW ]
Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on
:
What? Because I think it is a good thing to pray for their conversion? If you think this is a bad thing then I say this is a betrayal of the gospel. This is essentially what it boils down to. I haven't and never will condone violence against anyone but it's not the fault of the prayers. If we as a result a abandon our prayers and believe that they need not convert then we have betrayed our faith.
[ 28. February 2015, 17:26: Message edited by: Ad Orientem ]
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Fuck off you cunt. You don't get to make such accusations. Oh yeah, and I fucked your mum.
Whereas you couldn't possibly call this a betrayal of one's faith.
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on
:
It's not that often you get people calling themselves 'motherfucker'. It's a self-description which I fancy will hover over AO as long as he remains on these Boards.
Posted by QLib (# 43) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I wonder what percentage of the Orthodox population of Finland is actually comprised of people of Russian descent who immigrated or got left behind after the various invasions and occupations, versus people whose ancestry is long-line Finnish. I'm thinking it may not be terribly surprising for an Orthodox Finn to be nonchalant about the Russians invading. It's their comrades.
Come on, mt, you know better than that. Just because someone has Russian ancestry it doesn't mean that they support Putin; it doesn't meant that they support Russia's (alleged) territorial ambitions; and it doesn't mean that they would be happy to see their own country invaded. In fact, quite a number of Finns with Russian ancestry would presumably be descendants of people who fled that part of Karelia which was ceded to the USSR.
Wikipedia reckons that Orthodoxen male up about 1% of Finland's population. But that's still nearly 60,000 people. What chance do you think there is of them all sharing AO's opinion, as opposed to him being a dickhead in a minority of one?
Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
It's not that often you get people calling themselves 'motherfucker'. It's a self-description which I fancy will hover over AO as long as he remains on these Boards.
Hmmm, Mother Russia, motherfucker. It was he who brought mothers into this discussion, after all. The all-seeing all-knowing, fascist matriarch of his or her fantasies that he or she wants to fuck like it's 1939.
As it is, I can't get over the thought of him or her with a copy of whatever old rite he's into in one hand, and his or her other hand playing merry hell with that that wants fun with his or her mother, hence my name for him: Liturgy Wanker. Wanking not being a bad thing, per se, but with a liturgy book in the other hand...
Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on
:
For the record, I don't have any Russian ancestry. My grandmother's family was from Finnish Karelia and her father died in the Winter War fighting the Soviets. I never have said nay or yay regarding Putin. I just have a problem with Western, in particular American, hypocrisy and Anglophone Russophobia. And no one knows the Finnish psyche except Finns. We are a people understood only by ourselves.
Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
What? Because I think it is a good thing to pray for their conversion? If you think this is a bad thing then I say this is a betrayal of the gospel. This is essentially what it boils down to. I haven't and never will condone violence against anyone but it's not the fault of the prayers. If we as a result a abandon our prayers and believe that they need not convert then we have betrayed our faith.
To quote you from the Purgatory Thread;
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I don't accept that argument and never will. How about we don't poke our noses in each others prayers?
Your prayers are that the prayers of others change to be your prayers. And you ignore that your prayers have a history of being associated with violence. "Well, we don't do that much anymore" is hardly an excuse for the blood.
How about you not poke your nose in other peoples prayers?
Posted by Dave W. (# 8765) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
It's not that often you get people calling themselves 'motherfucker'.
That's not right, is it? AO said he fucked Teufelchen's mum, not his own. I mean, I always assumed...
Oh dear. Have I really been misinterpreting that insult for the last, oh, let's say, thirty-five years?
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on
:
Let's just say it suits him (while doubting he's ever had sexual congress with anything other than the odd sock).
Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on
:
My deepest sympathy to the sock.
Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I'm not sure that God listens to non-Christian prayers. Certainly not of pagans. The example that was given was that of scientologists, and I certainly don't believe that God listens to their prayers. They're a weird cult.
Okay, what about the rest of them?
quote:
Um... just wondering... in your belief, whose prayers do have any value? Do those of (non-Christian) Jews? Muslims? Protestants? Roman Catholics?
Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I'm not sure that God listens to non-Christian prayers. Certainly not of pagans. The example that was given was that of scientologists, and I certainly don't believe that God listens to their prayers. They're a weird cult.
Okay, what about the rest of them?
quote:
Um... just wondering... in your belief, whose prayers do have any value? Do those of (non-Christian) Jews? Muslims? Protestants? Roman Catholics?
I don't know. Obviously I'm willing to give more leeway to those who believe in the triune God.
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
:
Very noble of you. Of course, what actually matters is how God responds, not how you respond.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Fuck off you cunt. You don't get to make such accusations. Oh yeah, and I fucked your mum.
Whereas you couldn't possibly call this a betrayal of one's faith.
Go ye unto all nations and insult them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, calling them by lewd names, yea, and saying unto them that ye went in unto their mothers. For such is the Kingdom of God.
Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Um... just wondering... in your belief, whose prayers do have any value? Do those of (non-Christian) Jews? Muslims? Protestants? Roman Catholics?
I don't know. Obviously I'm willing to give more leeway to those who believe in the triune God.
Actually, I'm sorry, but it's not obvious to me after some of your posts I've been reading. And if I am reading your response incorrectly, I apologize, but are you in genuine doubt about the value of prayers by Roman Catholics or Protestants?
A second but not identical question--do you see the prayers of Roman Catholics and/or Protestants as less valuable than those of Eastern Orthodox?
And a third, do the prayers of different kinds of Orthodox have different levels of value, simply by being by Greek or Russian or other?
[ 01. March 2015, 04:19: Message edited by: ChastMastr ]
Posted by RooK (# 1852) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Go ye unto all nations and insult them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, calling them by lewd names, yea, and saying unto them that ye went in unto their mothers. For such is the Kingdom of God.
That's some funny shit right there.
Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on
:
I am wondering what Ad Orientem hopes to achieve here. It should be obvious that neither 'because we've always done it', nor 'bollocks I fucked your mum', nor 'your brand of Christianity deserves to die' are going to persuade undecided doubters of the licitness of praying for the conversion of the Jews.
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I just have a problem with Western, in particular American, hypocrisy
But clearly no problem with whatever flavour of hypocrisy it is that combines foul-mouthed insults with defending authentic faith in Christ.
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
:
Ad Orientem. How are you feeling mate?
Posted by Jack o' the Green (# 11091) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
My deepest sympathy to the sock.
Apparently it goes by the name of 'Ole Crusty'. Or 'Trusty Crusty'. I forget.
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
:
t.
All YOU've got to do, regardless, is unconditionally apologize for the last sentence of this:
quote:
Originally posted by Teufelchen:
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
I still think modern Christianity is generally supportive and friendly toward Jews. However I've never met anyone like Ad Orientem in my daily life, and I don't think his attitudes are particularly typical.
I'd like to think you're right. But I'm also concerned that our preoccupation with appearing to have a rational, civilised debate gives the appearance that we at least tolerate vile antisemitic ethnonationalists like Ad Orientem.
t
Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on
:
Martin: Is the apology necessary because you don't believe A.O. is a vile anti-Semitic nationalist or because being an anti-Semitic nationalist is just fine with you?
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
:
Palimpsest. Have you stopped beating your wife?
Posted by Teufelchen (# 10158) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
All YOU've got to do, regardless, is unconditionally apologize for the last sentence of this:
quote:
Originally posted by Teufelchen:
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
I still think modern Christianity is generally supportive and friendly toward Jews. However I've never met anyone like Ad Orientem in my daily life, and I don't think his attitudes are particularly typical.
I'd like to think you're right. But I'm also concerned that our preoccupation with appearing to have a rational, civilised debate gives the appearance that we at least tolerate vile antisemitic ethnonationalists like Ad Orientem.
To whom should I apologise for the suggestion that tolerating fascists is at best unnecessary?
Because whoever it is is going to be disappointed.
t
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
:
Jesus.
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