Ship of Fools: The annual fake Seder

Thread: The annual fake Seder Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

"For Maundy Thursday this year, our church will participate in a Passover Seder. We will recount the story of the Exodus together just as Jesus did with his disciples before he was arrested.

The service will begin at 6:30pm in the FAC. The food provided will be light so it would be best to eat beforehand."

I've been to a real Seder. You'd best NOT eat beforehand, it's a happy feast physical and spiritual and communal, a celebration in scripture and songs and laughter and light-heated chit chat and delighting in the many wonderful dishes brought for the themed pot luck. Since when do you eat before going to a feast celebration?

If you are going to do a Seder, do a Seder! (I admit, four glasses of wine is to much for me these days!)

If you are doing a fake Seder, call it by a different, more honest, name.

Posted by The Midge (# 2398) on :

I had to teach a Sunday School class about the Passover. I decided to fake a Seder. Unfortunately our local Rabi double booked so it was a DIY job. It can really be cooked in a hurry even when googling the recipes for unleven breads.

It was much more fun than a bible study. Their faces when eating the bitter herbs were priceless.

Note: those wafers make one hell of a mess when eaten by 14 kids.

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

Sigh. I am going to a Seder hosted by a couple of friends, one of whom is Jewish. It turns out what I thought was as small event is having a lot of church members, including the vegetarian new minister and wife. Not exactly what I was hoping for.

Pro Tips.
If you're trying to do a Kosher meal, note that they have invented drinkable kosher wines to replace the traditional incredibly sweet ones.

Look up Sephardic (spicy) recipes for charoset rather than the Ashkenazy ones which are more like crunchy applesauce with wine.

If you use seltzer water to make matzo balls it will hurt less if you drop one on your toes.

What's more nutritious; a whole wheat matzo or the cardboard box it came in?

Posted by Callan (# 525) on :

On the occasions when I have done a fake Seder meal, I have always made a point of making it a Fake Seder Meal. I incline to the view that it is a useful teaching thing, and quite good fun to do but that the Jews have the copyright on the original, and given our history of being horrible to Jews, nicking their central meal and claiming it as our own is a bit of a cheek.

That said, if you have to tell people to eat beforehand, it's probably not worth bothering.

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

Also, beer is always kosher.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Having relatives of the faith I can always find a proper Seder.

This year the first Seder will be on 3rd April and the second will be after sunset on 4th - so would fit in well with a Vigil service.

Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :

Several years ago my church had one of these events and after the meal, with no warning we were treated to a Christian film called The Bridge. Horrible experience.

Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :

Oh, that's really nasty. Yuk yuk yuk.

(Same sentiments apply to faux seders)

Posted by Leaf (# 14169) on :

I think it can be interesting and enriching for Christians to learn more about Passover, so there's value to it. But Belle Ringer is right: it should be called a "Seder Learning Experience" or similar, and not portrayed as a real Seder meal.

There was a strong push for this kind of event in a previous church I was at. I contacted someone I knew with Christian-Jewish Dialogue, and the opinion of the group was - well, as my first paragraph.

Not a precise analogy, but: Consider a group of Chinese non-Christians wanting to learn more about Christmas dinner. You could have a learning event where they could hear table grace being said, taste typical dishes, learn about the nativity and what it means to Christians. That doesn't mean they'd be having "Christmas dinner," but there's nothing wrong with their learning more about it and what it means to those who participate in it.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
After the meal, with no warning we were treated to a Christian film called The Bridge. Horrible experience.

I've only glanced at the video: it looks like a Christian version of
the trolley problem.

And nothing to do with a Seder - that was sneaky.

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

Making like Moses before he kills the Egyptian, looking this way and that, I say this, three times fast:

Fuck Fake Fucking Seders.

Ahhh. After all those tediously polite threads in Ecclesiantics and the old Mystery Worship board, I can finally say it in the way it needs to be said.

Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :

In this version the bridge conductor is the father of a little boy. His wife is expecting and when she goes into labor, according to the parent's prearranged plan, she sends the little child out on the railroad bridge to get Dad. The sheer stupidity of the plan is the first problem with the film.

Of course, a train comes as the little boy is on the bridge and his father must decide whether or not to let his son be hit by the train or pull the lever to save him and send the passengers into the river below.

He decides to sacrifice his son and we, the viewers, see the train overtake him. We're supposed to see this as a metaphor for God sacrificing his son for all of us, but of course, the two things are different in many ways.

What really upset me about the whole thing was that, although I had asked the pastor what the evening was going to be like, all I heard was a description of the meal. Little children were there as well as a very sensitive person I had brought with me. The whole thing was an illogical, gratuitous, drama for cheap thrills.

IMHO

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

I've been at a Seder learning experience once, and I found it interesting. But it was made quite clear that it wasn't the real thing.

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
[QB] I think it can be interesting and enriching for Christians to learn more about Passover, so there's value to it. But Belle Ringer is right: it should be called a "Seder Learning Experience" or similar, and not portrayed as a real Seder meal./QB]

I'm calling what I'm doing with our church kids a "Passover celebration" rather than "Seder meal"-- which I think has more cultural aspects to it, would feel inauthentic for me to claim even a "fake seder".

What are shippies thoughts re "Seder learning experiences" that stress the connections to the last supper and Jesus as "passover lamb"? I'm sure our Jewish friends would not be terribly pleased re the syncretism, yet it feels authentic to the NT text and part of our history. Thoughts?

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

It's spiritual tourism. Slumming it in some ignorant recreated Disneyfied diorama. We don't know enough about 1st century Judaean ritual practices to be within a country-holler of what Jesus actually did.

Wanna go to a Seder? Wanna a Passover Celebration? A Seder Learning Experience?

Hook-up with some Jews. Get to know them well enough over the course of the year to get an actual invitation.

We've enough cultural imperialism so we know better than to cook up some deracinated do-it-yourself fapping dream.

For all the crap I serve up to Ceremoniar, lemme say, if it's not somewhere in the books then what the fuck are we doing it for?! Want to do some historico-liturgical re-enactment? Then, get historico-liturgically honest.

You wanna read something polite on the subject, take it up in Ecclesiantics.

Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on :

Yep. I have a number of Jewish friends, and often get invited to the Real Thing. If you're still able to move about easily after the noodle kugel, the chopped liver, the chicken or brisket, the mandelbrot, etc. etc. something's gone wrong in the kitchen. The church in the OP seems to have got Passover confused with one of those Oxfam Lenten Hunger Meals.

Posted by Teilhard (# 16342) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
It's spiritual tourism. Slumming it in some ignorant recreated Disneyfied diorama. We don't know enough about 1st century Judaean ritual practices to be within a country-holler of what Jesus actually did.

Wanna go to a Seder? Wanna a Passover Celebration? A Seder Learning Experience?

Hook-up with some Jews. Get to know them well enough over the course of the year to get an actual invitation.

We've enough cultural imperialism so we know better than to cook up some deracinated do-it-yourself fapping dream.

For all the crap I serve up to Ceremoniar, lemme say, if it's not somewhere in the books then what the fuck are we doing it for?! Want to do some historico-liturgical re-enactment? Then, get historico-liturgically honest.

You wanna read something polite on the subject, take it up in Ecclesiantics.

Getting an entire study class invited to a genuine (home and family) Passover seder would be a good trick … Good luck with that ...

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Porridge: Yep. I have a number of Jewish friends, and often get invited to the Real Thing.

I think this is a difference between the US (and even the UK) and continental Europe. I have a — small — number of Jewish friends, but there are much fewer Jews in many parts of Europe than I'd like there to be.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

I don't think there is anything wrong with cultural tourism, as long as it's clear that this is what it is. It only becomes cultural imperialism when it pretends to be something it is not. To be honest, I find this "You with your fake stuff; I get invited to the real thing" more than a bit snobbish.

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

Our problem is we have a shared heritage with Judaism, but it's one that's interpreted differently. (To say nothing of the baggage from centuries of persecution).

The Passover-- and one Passover celebration in particular-- is part of our story, as Christians, just as it is for Jews-- but in different ways. We celebrate a Passover of sorts every time we have communion. And we celebrate it in ways that might be offensive to a Jew. That's part of our story as well.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
It's spiritual tourism.

Good way of putting it.

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Teilhard:
Getting an entire study class invited to a genuine (home and family) Passover seder would be a good trick … Good luck with that ...

Right. You want to unload the entire tour bus into the middle of the indigenous village and pretend as though you're having an authentic experience. Just because it's a convenient way to wedge your curriculum onto things doesn't make it right. You want tchotchkas from your spiritual tourism? Try Amazon. You want to learn the Jewish experience of the Exodus, then you damned well better be prepared to shut up and be a small minority.

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I have a — small — number of Jewish friends, but there are much fewer Jews in many parts of Europe than I'd like there to be.

Right. That gaping, mid-20th-century hole shot through the middle of European Jewry might have something to do with it.

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I don't think there is anything wrong with cultural tourism

Fine. Defend that. The accusation is spiritual tourism.

quote:
To be honest, I find this "You with your fake stuff; I get invited to the real thing" more than a bit snobbish.

Tough shit. See above to remember what happened to all the Jews in Europe. Exodus/Egypt. Exile/Babylon. Shoah/Europe. It's intellectually dishonest and liturgically dishonest to go anthropologically rummaging around among the Seder artifacts looking at each curio exclaiming, Gee! What does this tell us about Jesus!?

Jesus! Where's leo when, for once, he could be useful?

quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Our problem is we have a shared heritage with Judaism

But that doesn't mean we get to retroject a Christian image onto a post-2nd- or 3rd-century Jewish festival with 1700 years of its own development.

[ 27. March 2015, 05:40: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

The best analogy would be a group of tourists from a non-Christian land who come to your church service and observe and take photographs.

Unfortunately their numbers have grown so much that there isn't room in the Church for all of them.

Not a problem, one of the visiting groups has an enthusiast who's willing to dress in the appropriate clothing of a priest and reproduce the service in the Church for his tour group. He might not get it exactly right, but it will make for great photo opportunities.

Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
and given our history of being horrible to Jews, nicking their central meal and claiming it as our own is a bit of a cheek.

That said, if you have to tell people to eat beforehand, it's probably not worth bothering.

Given we've nicked their God and their scriptures and claim them as our own, surely a meal is a mere bagatelle.

Posted by The Midge (# 2398) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
It's spiritual tourism. Slumming it in some ignorant recreated Disneyfied diorama. We don't know enough about 1st century Judaean ritual practices to be within a country-holler of what Jesus actually did.

Does Micky Mouse or Donald Duck get to ask the children's questions?

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

Christ gave us a new ritual, the Eucharist. Fake seders are fad.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
The Silent Acolyte: Right. That gaping, mid-20th-century hole shot through the middle of European Jewry might have something to do with it.

Yes of course. Good that you picked this up from my post.

quote:
The Silent Acolyte: Fine. Defend that. The accusation is spiritual tourism.

Whatever. It's already some time ago. A good friend of mine was a minister and had been living and working among Jews for all of his life in an ecumenical setting. After his retirement he went on to do voluntary work with the Lutheran church in Brazil, where he worked together with me.

On passover, he invited a couple of friends because he wanted to explain us something about Seder. He said very explicitly at the beginning and at various points during the evening "This isn't a Seder we are doing. The Seder belongs to the Jews. We're just trying to understand more about it."

So he explained some things about it, but also gave practical examples. I remember eating the bitter herbs. He also showed us some 'artifacts'. He especially tried to make us understand how important the Seder is to Jews in relation to what happened to them in Exodus/Egypt. Exile/Babylon. Shoah/Europe

No-one took pictures to show to others "Look how cool I am; I am in a Seder". And this wasn't about what it tells us about Jesus at all. In fact, I don't think His name was even mentioned.

Of course, I would have preferred to have been invited to a real Seder. But that wasn't an option. There are a number of Jews in Brazil, but not in the place I was living.

In my view, it was done with a lot of respect. I found it a valuable experience, and I have learned a lot. I think it is more your prejudice at what happens at these events that is showing here.

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:
The Silent Acolyte: Right. That gaping, mid-20th-century hole shot through the middle of European Jewry might have something to do with it.
Yes of course. Good that you picked this up from my post.

quote:
The Silent Acolyte: Fine. Defend that. The accusation is spiritual tourism.
Whatever. It's already some time ago. A good friend of mine was a minister and had been living and working among Jews for all of his life in an ecumenical setting. After his retirement he went on to do voluntary work with the Lutheran church in Brazil, where he worked together with me.

On passover, he invited a couple of friends because he wanted to explain us something about Seder. He said very explicitly at the beginning and at various points during the evening "This isn't a Seder we are doing. The Seder belongs to the Jews. We're just trying to understand more about it."

So he explained some things about it, but also gave practical examples. I remember eating the bitter herbs. He also showed us some 'artifacts'. He especially tried to make us understand how important the Seder is to Jews in relation to what happened to them in Exodus/Egypt. Exile/Babylon. Shoah/Europe

No-one took pictures to show to others "Look how cool I am; I am in a Seder". And this wasn't about what it tells us about Jesus at all. In fact, I don't think His name was even mentioned.

Of course, I would have preferred to have been invited to a real Seder. But that wasn't an option. There are a number of Jews in Brazil, but not in the place I was living.

In my view, it was done with a lot of respect. I found it a valuable experience, and I have learned a lot. I think it is more your prejudice at what happens at these events that is showing here.

That wouldn’t be Spiritual Tourism as I understand it, more of a respectful attempt to put things into context and create understanding of something outside your own culture.

Not all the events I’ve seen advertised are like that. Some churches have incorporated Seders and Passover meals into the run up to their Easter celebrations and present them as The Real Deal ™. Even though they’re presided over by someone who is about as Jewish as I am (ie Not At All), who’ve read a few books or watched a few videos. And bought a few Jewish religious artefacts off eBay to make it more “authentic”. Those kinds of things are what I’d describe as “spiritual tourism”. (The Silent Acolyte may be working to a different defination).

If a church wants to do something to help people prepare for Easter, there are some perfectly good Christian traditions they could use without nicking someone else’s. So, simple Maundy Thursday supper and foot washing, followed by something on Good Friday, break on Saturday and Easter Sunday. Job done.

Tubbs

[ 27. March 2015, 11:51: Message edited by: Tubbs ]

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

If you are going to insult Jews by holding a fake seder, don't be annoyed if the local synagogue holds a fake eucharist.

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
The best analogy would be a group of tourists from a non-Christian land who come to your church service and observe and take photographs.

Some of the traditionally black churches of Harlem, New York City, are dealing with busloads of tourists who "come looking for gospel music...They come looking for a show."

Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :

I've been to one, based upon a liturgy produced by the Churches Ministry among Jewish people, made for Christians with a Jewish background and used by us. I enjoyed it.

Regardless of ones feelings about the CMJ (I know there to be many objections to their work), isn't it a good that that Christians with a Jewish background have such a liturgy?

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
The best analogy would be a group of tourists from a non-Christian land who come to your church service and observe and take photographs.

Some of the traditionally black churches of Harlem, New York City, are dealing with busloads of tourists who "come looking for gospel music...They come looking for a show."

A helpful analogy. There was a similar fad here in the LA for awhile of "gospel brunches". Restaurants would serve up eggs and waffles while real choirs from real churches sang real gospel spirituals. I went to just one, and while the food and music was delightful, it just felt so wrong to be flagging down the waiter to bring you another mimosa and chatting loudly about your latest development deal in the middle of someone's worship service. Thankfully, as this is LA, the fad quickly passed.

[ 27. March 2015, 14:07: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
The best analogy would be a group of tourists from a non-Christian land who come to your church service and observe and take photographs.

Unfortunately their numbers have grown so much that there isn't room in the Church for all of them.

Not a problem, one of the visiting groups has an enthusiast who's willing to dress in the appropriate clothing of a priest and reproduce the service in the Church for his tour group. He might not get it exactly right, but it will make for great photo opportunities.

Not a problem?! Words almost fail me. Reproduce the service?! In the church?! Great photo opportunities?! Please come back and tell me you're not serious and that you've suckered me in with xerotic wit to make Robertson Davies blush.

quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
Does Micky Mouse or Donald Duck get to ask the children's questions?

I'm guesing, Goofy. Or, maybe Porky Pig.

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
A good friend of mine was a minister and had been living and working among Jews for all of his life in an ecumenical setting. After his retirement he went on to do voluntary work with the Lutheran church in Brazil, where he worked together with me.

On passover, he invited a couple of friends because he wanted to explain us something about Seder. He said very explicitly at the beginning and at various points during the evening "This isn't a Seder we are doing. The Seder belongs to the Jews. We're just trying to understand more about it."

So he explained some things about it, but also gave practical examples. I remember eating the bitter herbs. He also showed us some 'artifacts'. He especially tried to make us understand how important the Seder is to Jews in relation to what happened to them in Exodus/Egypt. Exile/Babylon. Shoah/Europe

No-one took pictures to show to others "Look how cool I am; I am in a Seder". And this wasn't about what it tells us about Jesus at all. In fact, I don't think His name was even mentioned.

Of course, I would have preferred to have been invited to a real Seder. But that wasn't an option. There are a number of Jews in Brazil, but not in the place I was living.

In my view, it was done with a lot of respect. I found it a valuable experience, and I have learned a lot.

This doesn't seem a fake Seder at all. It sounds like a sensitive exploration, not a sham reenactment, like those described, especially in Tubbs post, and elsewhere.

Regarding Rosa Winkel's raising of Seder activities of Christians with a Jewish background, it's probably best to remain silent, except perhaps, when they bleed into the parish halls filled with curious Christians not of Jewish background.

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
The best analogy would be a group of tourists from a non-Christian land who come to your church service and observe and take photographs.

Unfortunately their numbers have grown so much that there isn't room in the Church for all of them.

Not a problem, one of the visiting groups has an enthusiast who's willing to dress in the appropriate clothing of a priest and reproduce the service in the Church for his tour group. He might not get it exactly right, but it will make for great photo opportunities.
Not a problem?! Words almost fail me. Reproduce the service?! In the church?! Great photo opportunities?! Please come back and tell me you're not serious and that you've suckered me in with xerotic wit to make Robertson Davies blush.

Check your irony meter. I do believe you've been "suckered <snip> in with xerotic wit to make Robertson Davies blush." (Unless I need to check my irony meter on your response. [Paranoid]

)

I found Palimpsest's description totally wicked and delicious. [Devil]

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

An unhellish parallel for you all.

Our church and the local Parish church have good relations with the local Mosque. Several of us have visited it on different occasions.

We arranged to invite the Muslims to a "demonstration service", to show them how Christians worship. This included hymns, prayers, responsive liturgy, Bible readings and a sermon. It lasted about 30 minutes and was followed by tea, cake and questions.

We told the Muslims who came that they were only expected to observe, rather than join in. But, in fact, some did.

This was a "real" service (albeit a rather artificial one) and it did, I think, offer a genuine educational opportunity - as going to Friday prayers would be for us.

[ 27. March 2015, 14:45: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
The Silent Acolyte: This doesn't seem a fake Seder at all.

That's why I called it a Seder learning experience. I don't think we gave it a name at the time, but it was about Seder, we learned something and it was an experience, so it seems appropriate. Seder learning experiences were included in your rant.

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
I've been to one, based upon a liturgy produced by the Churches Ministry among Jewish people, made for Christians with a Jewish background and used by us. I enjoyed it.

Regardless of ones feelings about the CMJ (I know there to be many objections to their work), isn't it a good that that Christians with a Jewish background have such a liturgy?

I've only been to one such service, and it was led by a Jewish convert to Christianity. That was fine by me as it was done in a very similar way to the service that Le Roc describes.

The following year, when it was suggested that we do the same again but led by one of the Ministers using a CMJ liturgy, I wrote a very stiff letter expressing my opinions about how inappropriate it all was. Apparently, I wasn't the only one as they didn't do it.

Tubbs

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
...the Real Thing. If you're still able to move about easily after the noodle kugel, the chopped liver, the chicken or brisket, the mandelbrot, etc. etc. something's gone wrong in the kitchen.

The church in the OP seems to have got Passover confused with one of those Oxfam Lenten Hunger Meals.

This. Turning a celebratory feast into a penitent fast is what bugs me most. Total distortion of what a Seder is!

Some synagogues have pot luck Seders and charge outsiders a fee ($15) to come participate. Not widely advertised, outsiders welcome but not sought. The one I went to requested "reservations" because they need to know how much food to prepare, I suspect they would reject a busload because so many outsiders would change the "extended family" feel of the evening.

Comparing the one church "seder" and the one synagogue Seder I've been to, two of the huge differences were (1) food - sparse vs plentiful, and (2) mood - anticipating suffering & death vs celebrating God's provision of life.

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :

Enough of the fake Eucharists pretending to be reduced seders! Christ our Passover indeed! And don't get me started on how you all hijack the Exodus story at every Easter Vigil.

Damn; seems we've already been up to our necks in this 'spiritual tourism' outfit for the last 2000 years.

Posted by Callan (# 525) on :

Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:

quote:
Fine. Defend that. The accusation is spiritual tourism.

Tourism is tourism. Whether it is good or bad depends on the way in which it is conducted and the spirit in which one engages in it. On the occasion on which I got to spend a couple of weeks swanning around the Galapagos I came away with a sense of my comparative ignorance about the natural world and a sense of the the beauty and wonder of nature. None of which makes me St. Francis of Assisi, but no damage done. Now if I had come back and announced that I had done the Galapagos and that I was the second coming of Chuck Darwin, clearly, I would be a bit of a tit but that particular shortcoming would have gone out with me and returned to me. Now clearly my two weeks in the Galapagos was no substitute for living there or for studying for a degree in Evolutionary Biology but as long as I knew that it did no harm and might have done some good.

The same thing, to my mind, applies to Spiritual Tourism. A Fake Seder Meal(TM) is, obviously, not the same thing as a proper Seder and to pass it off, as such, would be bad and wrong. But if it opens peoples eyes to the fact that there is this thing called Judaism and that we, as Christians, owe it certain debts then it is no bad thing. Probably there are Christians who think that putting on a Fake Seder Meal makes them the second coming of Abraham J. Herschel but then there are Christians like Ad Orientam so hopefully they will cancel one another out. Preferably in a thermonuclear explosion.

In any event, I was responsible for introducing it in two village churches where the attendance for Maundy Thursday and Good Friday was 3 people at each service and when I left it was up to 30-something. Being a complete fucking tart, if Fake Seder Meals can get people to take our Lord's Passion seriously then I am going with Fake Seder Meals. If the local Synagogue wants to retaliate with Fake Eucharists then I have a copy of the latest translation of the Roman Rite, which is just what they need. [Razz]

Posted by BroJames (# 9636) on :

ISTM that BCE and early first century Judaism had two offspring (rabbinic Judaism and Christianity) which have always been in conflict about which of them is the 'legitimate' descendant. There is evidence for that argument within the NT canon itself.

My main reservations about churches using the Seder, after issues of cultural and religious sensitivity, are that the Gospels are not unequivocally clear that the Last Supper was a Passover, and that Seder of rabbinic Judaism may not be a good guide to what Jesus shared with his disciples.

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:

My main reservations about churches using the Seder, after issues of cultural and religious sensitivity, are that the Gospels are not unequivocally clear that the Last Supper was a Passover

Even if one is convinced the Last Supper was not a Passover, the NT calls Jesus the "Passover lamb" in several places-- making the Passover connection significant to Christians. Indeed, if in fact the date was moved in the telling from the day of preparation (as per John) to the Passover (as per synoptics) that's probably why. Which IMHO is reason enough to discuss what would be a respectful & appropriate way for Christians to mark that connection.

Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :

Not being Hellish here, but I think this is certainly a good opportunity to contemplate what we believe about the connections between Jesus and Judaism (before and during Jesus' time on Earth 2000 years ago, as well as now), the Eucharist and the Seder, whether and/or how the events of the last 2000 years should or do affect these things, and so on.

My own conscience is clear about these things (not least of which because I'm Jewish by blood) but perhaps this opens up a lot of unresolved doctrinal issues for a lot of people.

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
The best analogy would be a group of tourists from a non-Christian land who come to your church service and observe and take photographs.

Unfortunately their numbers have grown so much that there isn't room in the Church for all of them.

Not a problem, one of the visiting groups has an enthusiast who's willing to dress in the appropriate clothing of a priest and reproduce the service in the Church for his tour group. He might not get it exactly right, but it will make for great photo opportunities.
Not a problem?! Words almost fail me. Reproduce the service?! In the church?! Great photo opportunities?! Please come back and tell me you're not serious and that you've suckered me in with xerotic wit to make Robertson Davies blush.

Sorry. The intent was not to sucker you in, but to point out how obnoxious the original was. I can't imagine a church allowing this, unless they were desperately poor.

quote:
Regarding Rosa Winkel's raising of Seder activities of Christians with a Jewish background, it's probably best to remain silent, except perhaps, when they bleed into the parish halls filled with curious Christians not of Jewish background.

Christians of Jewish origin and mixed marriages lead to compromises that make sense for the those involved. When it's Christians who are proselytizing Jews and trying to claim it's all Judaism, it becomes more sinister.
Again, as a comparison and not a serious proposal; how about Church services specifically for Atheists of Christian origin?

[ 27. March 2015, 19:49: Message edited by: Palimpsest ]

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Callan:

In any event, I was responsible for introducing it in two village churches where the attendance for Maundy Thursday and Good Friday was 3 people at each service and when I left it was up to 30-something. Being a complete fucking tart, if Fake Seder Meals can get people to take our Lord's Passion seriously then I am going with Fake Seder Meals. If the local Synagogue wants to retaliate with Fake Eucharists then I have a copy of the latest translation of the Roman Rite, which is just what they need.

If boosting attendance is your main goal, why stop there in being a tart? How about some Prostitutes like those in the Temple of Ashtoreth? You'll get crowds you've never seen in Church before.

Posted by Callan (# 525) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:

quote:
Originally posted by Callan:

In any event, I was responsible for introducing it in two village churches where the attendance for Maundy Thursday and Good Friday was 3 people at each service and when I left it was up to 30-something. Being a complete fucking tart, if Fake Seder Meals can get people to take our Lord's Passion seriously then I am going with Fake Seder Meals. If the local Synagogue wants to retaliate with Fake Eucharists then I have a copy of the latest translation of the Roman Rite, which is just what they need.
If boosting attendance is your main goal, why stop there in being a tart? How about some Prostitutes like those in the Temple of Ashtoreth? You'll get crowds you've never seen in Church before.

An apt analogy. Obviously drawing on the Jewish traditions which formed our Lord's devotion to the Almighty, in an attempt to evangelise people is exactly like turning one's church into a knocking shop dedicated to a pagan deity.

Tosser.

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

There was an interesting Nova episode on this week about the origins of Judaism. The archaeology shows that the pre-temple Israelites were often worshiping Canaanite Ashtoreth as the spouse of God.
So don't think of it as pagan, think of it as proto-Judaic custom that you're repurposing, just like you're repurposing Judaism in the quest for box office receipts.

The episode did have me pondering how much the role of Mary picked up from Ahtoreth worship. There's a similar question in the Jewish folk traditions about Miriam.

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

I went to a couple of Seders in the 1980s held with the premise as stated above - to do what the gang did at the last supper.

I wouldn't go again. My main objection is supercessionism, the idea that Christianity replaces Judaism.

Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :

Actually, and again I'm bring more Purgatorial here, if the non-Christians from some faroff land wanted to do their own reenactment of the Christian Eucharist in their own place (not in an actual church), then they can do whatever the heck they want, and who knows, maybe God would work through it somehow and do them good. It would not offend me in the slightest.

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I went to a couple of Seders in the 1980s held with the premise as stated above - to do what the gang did at the last supper.

I wouldn't go again. My main objection is supercessionism, the idea that Christianity replaces Judaism.

Certainly that's unacceptable, as is bait-and-switch evangelism. (Although folks who think getting Jews to come to a lamely austere pseudo-seder will be an effective evangelism tool is more pathetic than outrageous).

But I think we've seen here some examples that suggest, at least to me, that it's possible to do a Passover learning experience that avoids both those dangers.

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Actually, and again I'm bring more Purgatorial here, if the non-Christians from some faroff land wanted to do their own reenactment of the Christian Eucharist in their own place (not in an actual church), then they can do whatever the heck they want, and who knows, maybe God would work through it somehow and do them good. It would not offend me in the slightest.

You seemed to have moved it to a far off land. Does it matter if they are visiting and do it in a building made to look like a church and tell people it's a church service?

Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I wouldn't go again. My main objection is supercessionism, the idea that Christianity replaces Judaism.

Since I'm not sure that it's a false doctrine (depending on how it's approached), but I really think it's worthy of discussion in a non-Hellish way, I've started a thread on supersessionism in Purgatory. [Smile]

Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:

quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Actually, and again I'm bring more Purgatorial here, if the non-Christians from some faroff land wanted to do their own reenactment of the Christian Eucharist in their own place (not in an actual church), then they can do whatever the heck they want, and who knows, maybe God would work through it somehow and do them good. It would not offend me in the slightest.
You seemed to have moved it to a far off land. Does it matter if they are visiting and do it in a building made to look like a church and tell people it's a church service?

Since I was writing about your suggestion of "a group of tourists from a non-Christian land," then, well, yeah, it would be a far-off land, at least in the US or Europe. [Smile]

(Er, if by "non-Christian" you mean "historically not a country which has Christianity as its dominant religion." In the US we have separation of church and state, for example, but it's not like Christianity is unknown here.)

If they're visiting, and they do it in a building made to look like a church, sure, why not?

If they tell people it's a church service--I suppose it would depend on how they phrased it. (At what point would it cross over from being a pretend church service to a real one? Only God knows, I suppose.) As long as they're being honest about it with everyone, then while I may not agree with their theology or whatnot, I'm not offended. Why should I be?

[ 28. March 2015, 00:09: Message edited by: ChastMastr ]

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I went to a couple of Seders in the 1980s held with the premise as stated above - to do what the gang did at the last supper.

I wouldn't go again. My main objection is supercessionism, the idea that Christianity replaces Judaism.
Certainly that's unacceptable, as is bait-and-switch evangelism. (Although folks who think getting Jews to come to a lamely austere pseudo-seder will be an effective evangelism tool is more pathetic than outrageous).

But I think we've seen here some examples that suggest, at least to me, that it's possible to do a Passover learning experience that avoids both those dangers.

I'm of the opinion that the use of the word "Seder" makes it unacceptable. I could accept perhaps "Last Supper Reenactment". Best if everyone dressed in period costume, like the passé fad for medieval feasts. Otherwise every bit as bad as Germans dressing as North American Indians and their inappropriate Indian clubs.

Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on :

I dunno.

Leaving aside arguments about its historicity, Passover celebrates the liberation of a people from slavery. It commemorates the dangers, hardships, losses, privations, & sacrifice of bondage & escape, and the ultimate freedom attained. The celebration, AIUI, is central to Jewish identity; most of my Jewish friends are cheerfully atheist, yet they rarely fail to gather with friends and family to observe not only the seder but (in some cases) also the dietary regimen attending the rest of Passover. Granted, a week of packing lunches to work that consist of oranges, hard-boiled eggs & matzo may not seem all that difficult, but it's done.

Of course, the Christian story parallels Passover in many ways: being set free from the bondage of sin, with its dangers, hardships, and the central sacrifice; the Easter story, likewise, provides the core of Christian religious identity; the ritual meals differ, but echo each other, and so on.

It seems to me that the worth of the "Christian seder" hinges on intention and audience.

If the seder is meant to teach Christians about the older religion's customs, ask the local synagogue if some families would be willing to invite individuals from the church congregation to their seders.

If the seder is meant as a gesture of "What We Have In Common," do something different and at a different time. One main point of Passover is the "passing over" -- the exclusive nature of a people who have regarded themselves from time immemorial as set aside, separate, "chosen." What could be more arrogantly irritating than having your Christian neighbors horn in on your central set-apartness rituals?

If the seder is meant as a hat-tip to the ethnicity of Jesus, how does this square with "In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, etc."?

If the seder is meant as a re-enactment of the Last Supper (and there's not much NT description to go on here), why not just have the eucharist Christians normally carry out? Isn't that what the eucharist is? Why dress Christian rituals in Jewish prayer-shawl & kippa? While there will be some who fall between stools, as religionists, Christians generally aren't Jews; Jews generally aren't Christians; Christianity holds itself to be inclusive (and proselytizes in aid of inclusivity); Judaism holds itself to be exclusive, and avoids active proselytization in aid of that exclusivity.

Seems to me that respect here requires acknowledging and leaving room for that sense of set-apartness, and the Passover seder as a ritual is a central to that identity. Just sayin'.

Posted by Teilhard (# 16342) on :

Understanding the roots of many Christian practices and theology in the faith and history of Israel does no harm …

Not only is the Eucharist a re-working of the Passover Seder, Infant Baptism corresponds to Circumcision …

Confirmation - Bar/Bat Mitzvah …

Sabbath - Sunday

Synagogue/Temple - Congregation/Sanctuary

Sacred Texts - Canon

etc. ...

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

I'm one of those Jewish atheists who still goes to an occasional Seder and there are both universal and specific lessons. The customs of the dinner ritual are designed to maintain the memory. However the actual rituals in use today are probably after the split between modern Jewish religion and Christianity. Origins of the Seder and are in fact a lot like Greco-Roman dining. Certainly it's been a few millennia since Christians observed the Seder and not the last Supper. To appropriate it on the grounds that you're family and you can take anything your older brother has is not likely to make your brothers happy.

That said, participating in a Jewish Seder or studying the holiday rather than re-enacting it can be a good thing. To me there are two powerful things in this origin story. "We were slaves in the land of Egypt and God led us to Freedom" is important for many reasons; to remember the value of Freedom, to respect others who are still enslaved and to help them and to remember the specialness of the people.

The second lesson is easy to lose. What were the Jews doing in Egypt. If you believe the Torah, they went to Egypt during years of Famine and gradually became enslaved. There needs to be both gratitude that there was help in avoiding starvation and vigilance about the souring of the relationship into enslavement. If you just look at the archaeology and not the bible, you learn that there were major Jewish settlements in Egypt as well as other areas, even if you think that the Israelites evolved in Canaan, became dispersed and eventually came to control Israel. The story is more complicated than fleeing evil and it still needs to be figured out.

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Teilhard:
Not only is the Eucharist a re-working of the Passover Seder,

Thank you, Teilhard, for stating the underpinnings of this odious practice so clearly.

It is just as clear that it is false.

To say that the supper was a Seder is an anachronism, even a re-working of one. We have Rabbinic evidence for Seders only to, what?, the third or second century. Weirdly, the gospel accounts are the best evidence of the 1st century passover meal and these are astonishingly threadbare, having only the two cups, the blessing, and the bread. And, these accounts, except for Mark, written after the fall of the temple refer to, not Seders, but the day of unleavened bread—examine the text.

The other correspondences you hoist up were very popular in the early part of the last century, when we were still confusedly doing anthropology with the rough tools of biblical exegesis aided by the emerging 19th century historical method.

The supper was not a eucharist. The supper was not a seder.

Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:

The supper was not a eucharist.

Actually, the Supper was the first Eucharist.

Posted by Teilhard (# 16342) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:

quote:
Originally posted by Teilhard:
Not only is the Eucharist a re-working of the Passover Seder,
Thank you, Teilhard, for stating the underpinnings of this odious practice so clearly.

It is just as clear that it is false.

To say that the supper was a Seder is an anachronism, even a re-working of one. We have Rabbinic evidence for Seders only to, what?, the third or second century. Weirdly, the gospel accounts are the best evidence of the 1st century passover meal and these are astonishingly threadbare, having only the two cups, the blessing, and the bread. And, these accounts, except for Mark, written after the fall of the temple refer to, not Seders, but the day of unleavened bread—examine the text.

The other correspondences you hoist up were very popular in the early part of the last century, when we were still confusedly doing anthropology with the rough tools of biblical exegesis aided by the emerging 19th century historical method.

The supper was not a eucharist. The supper was not a seder.

The "Last Supper" certainly was not a "modern" Seder … But it was a Passover Meal, and the canonical Gospels' accounts of it -- from the late First Century C.E. -- say so …

That is a different question than 20th-21st Century Christians trying to stage a fake "Seder" for educational purposes ...

[ 28. March 2015, 23:24: Message edited by: Teilhard ]

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

I was toying with the idea - what would be comparable to Seder in Christianity - a festive party with old friends and new, abundant foods, abundant wine, retelling of the story everyone knows and loves, Children involved in the retelling, songs everyone has known since childhood (although a bit of stumbling on some of the verses) - that's our Christmas! [Smile]

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
The supper was not a eucharist.
Actually, the Supper was the first Eucharist.

Thank you, ChastMastr, I let my rhetoric take me a step too far. The supper was the stock from which the eucharist grew and developed and, in that sense, is the first eucharist.

quote:
Originally posted by Teilhard:

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:

quote:
Originally posted by Teilhard:
Not only is the Eucharist a re-working of the Passover Seder,
Thank you, Teilhard, for stating the underpinnings of this odious practice so clearly.
…
The "Last Supper" certainly was not a "modern" Seder …

Thank you, again, Teilhard, for another clear statement—this one true—that demonstrates against the odious practice. The graft of a Seder from any generation onto a Christian educational experience is an odious one and is a graft that will not take.

Posted by Teilhard (# 16342) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:

quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
The supper was not a eucharist.
Actually, the Supper was the first Eucharist.
Thank you, ChastMastr, I let my rhetoric take me a step too far. The supper was the stock from which the eucharist grew and developed and, in that sense, is the first eucharist.

quote:
Originally posted by Teilhard:

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:

quote:
Originally posted by Teilhard:
Not only is the Eucharist a re-working of the Passover Seder,
Thank you, Teilhard, for stating the underpinnings of this odious practice so clearly.
…
The "Last Supper" certainly was not a "modern" Seder …
Thank you, again, Teilhard, for another clear statement—this one true—that demonstrates against the odious practice. The graft of a Seder from any generation onto a Christian educational experience is an odious one and is a graft that will not take.

I don't see it as "odious," but merely naive …

A sincere attempt to understand origins and meanings may not be 100% reliable … but "odious" it is not ...

Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on :

This is all a bit precious isn't it? It's not like anybody's eating a roast pork sandwich in a synagogue. If a group of Christians want to have a meal together that they believe emulates one that Jesus shared with his disciples, there is no offence meant to Jewish people and no chance for sacrilege-what's the harm? Judaism is resilient enough not to crumble when a few Christians borrow from their traditions.

Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
This is all a bit precious isn't it? It's not like anybody's eating a roast pork sandwich in a synagogue. If a group of Christians want to have a meal together that they believe emulates one that Jesus shared with his disciples, there is no offence meant to Jewish people and no chance for sacrilege-what's the harm? Judaism is resilient enough not to crumble when a few Christians borrow from their traditions.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Yeah, I also have a hard time taking this "odious" stuff seriously when the people most promoting it near me are Jews fully signed up on their Jewish heritage. A whole Jewish congregation, no less! I'm not about to march over there and tell them what they're doing is somehow culturally odious.

[ 29. March 2015, 12:14: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]

Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Yeah, I also have a hard time taking this "odious" stuff seriously when the people most promoting it near me are Jews fully signed up on their Jewish heritage. A whole Jewish congregation, no less! I'm not about to march over there and tell them what they're doing is somehow culturally odious.

There's a substantial difference.

The neighbors are free to invite you to their barbecue. They might not feel the same way about your barbecue which you've set up in your own back yard and copied, word-for-word & gesture-for-gesture, the one they're holding for themselves.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I was toying with the idea - what would be comparable to Seder in Christianity - a festive party with old friends and new, abundant foods, abundant wine, retelling of the story everyone knows and loves, Children involved in the retelling, songs everyone has known since childhood (although a bit of stumbling on some of the verses) - that's our Christmas!

I wouldn't be surprised to discover that some schools in Britain do re-enactments of Christian festivals from time to time under the banner of RE (usually following CofE or RC practice and forgetting us Nonconformists [Mad]

). They certainly do weddings: just to be different, here's a CofE school doing a Muslim one.

And why not, if these are teaching experiences? There's no pretence involved, but they should be accurate. Of course, what you cannot reproduce is the thinking with which members of faith communities approach their festivals.

[ 29. March 2015, 13:34: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by Teilhard (# 16342) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I was toying with the idea - what would be comparable to Seder in Christianity - a festive party with old friends and new, abundant foods, abundant wine, retelling of the story everyone knows and loves, Children involved in the retelling, songs everyone has known since childhood (although a bit of stumbling on some of the verses) - that's our Christmas!
I wouldn't be surprised to discover that some schools in Britain do re-enactments of Christian festivals from time to time under the banner of RE (usually following CofE or RC practice and forgetting us Nonconformists ). They certainly do weddings: just to be different, here's a CofE school doing a Muslim one.

And why not, if these are teaching experiences? There's no pretence involved, but they should be accurate. Of course, what you cannot reproduce is the thinking with which members of faith communities approach their festivals.

Questions of sincerity and authenticity interweave here …

Not uncommonly one runs into, hears from, an atheist who is a "'cultural' [Anglican/Catholic/*whatever*] who is not a person of faith, but still attends at least on occasion, perhaps for reasons of keeping peace*in*the*family or because at least on High Holy Days, the music is beautiful, etc. ...

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Yeah, I also have a hard time taking this "odious" stuff seriously when the people most promoting it near me are Jews fully signed up on their Jewish heritage. A whole Jewish congregation, no less! I'm not about to march over there and tell them what they're doing is somehow culturally odious.
There's a substantial difference.

The neighbors are free to invite you to their barbecue. They might not feel the same way about your barbecue which you've set up in your own back yard and copied, word-for-word & gesture-for-gesture, the one they're holding for themselves.

Well, I'm not sure where you'd put this particular group of Jews. They ARE Jews by any reasonable definition--services in Hebrew, prayer shawls, customs, holidays, the whole bit--also ancestry and ethnicity--

and they happen to be a duly constituted Lutheran church.

And being very, er, New York in orientation, they are the very opposite of shy about Seder meals in Christian settings. Whether at their home ground, or serving as hosts in sister congregations.

And yes, they catch shit for it from those who claim taht because they believe in Jesus, they are no longer Jews. And I suspect they catch shit for it from those politically-correct non-Jews who consider a Christian seder no seder at all.

They don't care.

Posted by ThunderBunk (# 15579) on :

Has anyone on the eastern side of the Pond seen this round these parts?

I'm not sure what I make of it, but am definitely thinking of it as something outside of my experience. Any non-NoAmers for whom it lies within their ken?

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

Didn't Callan talk about his experiences upthread? He's UK based.

I've attended a few UK based Seders:

rural village church, one year there was a Seder meal as part of the Holy Week provision following Maundy Thursday service;
same rural parish, as a meal as part of the Holy Week play/education sessions we put on;
Jewish friend led one for a group of us at college;
when Passover is a month apart from Maundy Thursday a couple of Jewish born parishioners here lead a Seder meal (I took lilypad to one)

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Yeah, I also have a hard time taking this "odious" stuff seriously when the people most promoting it near me are Jews fully signed up on their Jewish heritage. A whole Jewish congregation, no less! I'm not about to march over there and tell them what they're doing is somehow culturally odious.
There's a substantial difference.

The neighbors are free to invite you to their barbecue. They might not feel the same way about your barbecue which you've set up in your own back yard and copied, word-for-word & gesture-for-gesture, the one they're holding for themselves.
Well, I'm not sure where you'd put this particular group of Jews. They ARE Jews by any reasonable definition--services in Hebrew, prayer shawls, customs, holidays, the whole bit--also ancestry and ethnicity--

and they happen to be a duly constituted Lutheran church.

And being very, er, New York in orientation, they are the very opposite of shy about Seder meals in Christian settings. Whether at their home ground, or serving as hosts in sister congregations.

And yes, they catch shit for it from those who claim taht because they believe in Jesus, they are no longer Jews. And I suspect they catch shit for it from those politically-correct non-Jews who consider a Christian seder no seder at all.

They don't care.

"Jews by any reasonable definition" meaning Jews by your Christian definition. I think you will find that the vast majority of Jews do not think that
those worshipping Jesus are not Jews because Jesus did not fulfill the work of the Messiah.

Now you may think such Jews are not using a reasonable definition. However you don't get to decide for them.

You would probably feel the same way if Muslims, who see Abraham and Jesus as prophets and Mohammed as his final prophet called themselves "Christians, by any reasonable definition" I suspect you would dispute that, in the same way Jews would dispute Muslims calling themselves "Jews by any reasonable definition".

Calling your recreation of Jesus dinner with his disciples a Seder and using the traditions of post temple Judaism is the problem. Not attempting to re-enact what Jesus did, or attending a Seder. It's like the sports fans who support a team named after American Indians and do war whoops or tomahawk chops. It's disrespectful even if you're having great fun.

Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :

I'm not sure this is what you're suggesting, Palimpsest, but I find the notion that Jews can become atheists, Buddhists, and so on, and yet still be considered Jews, but if we convert to Christianity, then somehow we become Gentiles, to be false, ludicrous, and irritating. It's not like the mother's bloodline gets retroactively cut off. Or maybe we become some sort of weird being, neither Jewish nor Gentile, like a centaur? [Biased]

My ancestors down my mother's side, and her mother's side, were Orthodox Jews from Austria and Hungary. As far as I understand such matters, I am Jewish, by blood, and nothing on Earth can change that, especially not following Jesus the Messiah, the Son of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

If people, whoever they are, don't agree, well, sorry, but that's their problem. I will try to be kind to people who don't share my Christian faith, whether they're Jew or Gentile, but I won't pretend I'm not a very real, non-contradictory Jewish Christian, not for anyone.

No meanness or harm is intended toward anyone here, Hell board or no Hell board.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
"Jews by any reasonable definition" meaning Jews by your Christian definition. I think you will find that the vast majority of Jews do not think that those worshipping Jesus are not Jews because Jesus did not fulfill the work of the Messiah.

Now you may think such Jews are not using a reasonable definition. However you don't get to decide for them.

The question is, why should they get to decide for ChastMastr?

Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on :

quote:
It's like the sports fans who support a team named after American Indians and do war whoops or tomahawk chops. It's disrespectful even if you're having great fun.

No, I reject this comparison. If a sports team named themselves the Levites and sang psalms and faked blessings as a sports chant that would be disrespectful. I don't believe anybody is conducting a Seder disrespectfully or trivialising it.

It may be historically inaccurate and some may believe an inappropriate mixture of traditions for Christians to hold their own Seders, particularly if they are importing post-Jesus era practices but I reject that it is disrespectful and even though I've never attended a "Christian Seder" I think it's outrageous that you'd compare the practice to the misappropriation and offensive parodies of Native American culture. It's not the same at all.

Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
I'm not sure this is what you're suggesting, Palimpsest, but I find the notion that Jews can become atheists, Buddhists, and so on, and yet still be considered Jews, but if we convert to Christianity, then somehow we become Gentiles, to be false, ludicrous, and irritating. It's not like the mother's bloodline gets retroactively cut off. Or maybe we become some sort of weird being, neither Jewish nor Gentile, like a centaur?

My ancestors down my mother's side, and her mother's side, were Orthodox Jews from Austria and Hungary. As far as I understand such matters, I am Jewish, by blood, and nothing on Earth can change that, especially not following Jesus the Messiah, the Son of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

If people, whoever they are, don't agree, well, sorry, but that's their problem. I will try to be kind to people who don't share my Christian faith, whether they're Jew or Gentile, but I won't pretend I'm not a very real, non-contradictory Jewish Christian, not for anyone.

No meanness or harm is intended toward anyone here, Hell board or no Hell board.

But what does it mean to be a Jew? I know lots of folks who consider themselves "Jewish" in an ethnic sense and/or a cultural sense but not in a religious sense. Granted most of the people I know of this description sleep in of a Sunday morning and haven't been baptized.

As I noted earlier, it's the set-apart aspect -- which I believe to be specifically religious in nature -- of this identity which requires, I think, non-Jews to take a respectfully hands-off approach to religiously Jewish practice and ritual.

You can, of course, call yourself whatever you wish, as can any of us. But what will a minyan call you when you're the tenth man?

[ 29. March 2015, 22:38: Message edited by: Porridge ]

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

Those sports fans don't think they're being disrespectful to American Indians even if you and I do.
To use your earlier justification; compared to the genocide and dislocation of the past, it's a mere bagatelle.

Posted by JoannaP (# 4493) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
Has anyone on the eastern side of the Pond seen this round these parts?

I'm not sure what I make of it, but am definitely thinking of it as something outside of my experience. Any non-NoAmers for whom it lies within their ken?

I can't for the life of me remember what it was called but one Maundy Thursday when I was a student, the chaplaincy in Manchester hosted a meal that started as a passover meal and ended with the Eucharist. I felt a tad uncomfortable with it then and even more so in retrospect, but it was also interesting. I remember that, as a poor student, I was responsible for providing the bitter herbs.

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
The question is, why should they get to decide for ChastMastr?

They're defining their own group and the practices which are expected of members. If you don't follow them, you may be ethnically a Jew, but you're not a practicing member of the Jewish religion. I'm an atheist and hence while I may be an ethnic Jew, and possibly a cultural Jew, I'm not a practicing member of the religion.

I've seen similar group self definitions on this board when people have stated that Mormons aren't Christians. Despite their alleged heritage and redefinition of the word Gentile, most Jews don't consider them Jews either. You probably would also have strong opinions on someone who showed up and announced they were a self anointed Patriarch of the Orthodox Church.

It being a free country, people can self label however they please. But if the other people use a different meaning for the label that excludes that use, it's going to be seen as a false claim.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

Looking up services over Easter there's a Passover meal at 5pm followed by 7pm Holy Communion with foot-washing and stripping of the altars at one of the churches I was checking.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
The question is, why should they get to decide for ChastMastr?
They're defining their own group and the practices which are expected of members. If you don't follow them, you may be ethnically a Jew, but you're not a practicing member of the Jewish religion.

But AIUI, ChastMastr doesn't claim to be a practicing member of the Jewish religion, only ethnically Jewish.

Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
But AIUI, ChastMastr doesn't claim to be a practicing member of the Jewish religion, only ethnically Jewish.

Yes, it would depend on how "practicing member of the Jewish religion" is defined. Which kind of connects in some ways to the whole supersessionism discussion over in Purgatory, i.e., how the Church connects to Israel. As I understand myself, I'm definitely ethnically a Jew; my God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; I serve the foretold Messiah; and I am not a member of the non-Christian Jewish denominations currently around, such as Orthodox Judaism, Reformed Judaism, or the like.

(Alas, the formally Christian Jewish groups I know of are mainly their own denominations and usually fundamentalist, and don't have (nor claim to have or believe in) Apostolic Succession, so I'm not really involved with them.)

Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Those sports fans don't think they're being disrespectful to American Indians even if you and I do.
To use your earlier justification; compared to the genocide and dislocation of the past, it's a mere bagatelle.

That's a filthy lie, I never made any such justification.

You have completely misrepresented my "justification" to take a cheap and offensive shot. I never mentioned genocide, I said that given Christians have appropriated the Jewish God and their scriptures, a meal is a mere bagatelle. There's a hell of a difference between comparing respectfully appropriating different religious and cultural practices versus murder, torture and dislocation.

Furthermore, the fact that Jesus was Jewish and we claim the Jewish scriptures and their notion of God puts a Sedar in a completely different category from the so-called sports fans.

Posted by Bullfrog. (# 11014) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Actually, and again I'm bring more Purgatorial here, if the non-Christians from some faroff land wanted to do their own reenactment of the Christian Eucharist in their own place (not in an actual church), then they can do whatever the heck they want, and who knows, maybe God would work through it somehow and do them good. It would not offend me in the slightest.

Except that this religion in a far off land hasn't spent the last 2000 years trying to assimilate and/or kill you and everyone like you.

Christians are not far off aliens to Jews. We're more like estranged siblings with an ongoing inheritance dispute.

Posted by Teilhard (# 16342) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:

quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Actually, and again I'm bring more Purgatorial here, if the non-Christians from some faroff land wanted to do their own reenactment of the Christian Eucharist in their own place (not in an actual church), then they can do whatever the heck they want, and who knows, maybe God would work through it somehow and do them good. It would not offend me in the slightest.
Except that this religion in a far off land hasn't spent the last 2000 years trying to assimilate and/or kill you and everyone like you.

Christians are not far off aliens to Jews. We're more like estranged siblings with an ongoing inheritance dispute.

Yes ... Think of: Jacob and Esau

Posted by Bullfrog. (# 11014) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Teilhard:

quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:

quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Actually, and again I'm bring more Purgatorial here, if the non-Christians from some faroff land wanted to do their own reenactment of the Christian Eucharist in their own place (not in an actual church), then they can do whatever the heck they want, and who knows, maybe God would work through it somehow and do them good. It would not offend me in the slightest.
Except that this religion in a far off land hasn't spent the last 2000 years trying to assimilate and/or kill you and everyone like you.

Christians are not far off aliens to Jews. We're more like estranged siblings with an ongoing inheritance dispute.
Yes ... Think of: Jacob and Esau

But Jacob, trickster though he may be, doesn't just waltz into Esau's camp, grab a few prized possessions, and then say "Well, they're something we share in common now! We're buddies!"

That's not reconciliation. That's appropriation.

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
Originally posted by Teilhard:
Christians are not far off aliens to Jews. We're more like estranged siblings with an ongoing inheritance dispute.

• Yes ... Think of: Jacob and Esau

• But Jacob, trickster though he may be, doesn't just waltz into Esau's camp, grab a few prized possessions, and then say "Well, they're something we share in common now! We're buddies!"

No, he waltzes into Esau's camp and grabs ALL the prized possessions.

Although I don't think Jacob's behavior in that regard is intended to be any sort of model for us to follow.

[ 30. March 2015, 02:17: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

Posted by Teilhard (# 16342) on :

quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:

quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
Originally posted by Teilhard:
Christians are not far off aliens to Jews. We're more like estranged siblings with an ongoing inheritance dispute.

• Yes ... Think of: Jacob and Esau

• But Jacob, trickster though he may be, doesn't just waltz into Esau's camp, grab a few prized possessions, and then say "Well, they're something we share in common now! We're buddies!"

No, he waltzes into Esau's camp and grabs ALL the prized possessions.

Although I don't think Jacob's behavior in that regard is intended to be any sort of model for us to follow.

For sure, the stories of the patriarchs give us few shining examples to be emulated (Abraham and Issac at the altar ... !!!) ... Joseph's brothers selling him into slavery ...

Or, much later, upstart arrogant Paul -- latecomer to "The Way" -- rudely humiliating Peter in public

But the stories are about "family" ... They're about US (not about "them") ...

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
"Jews by any reasonable definition" meaning Jews by your Christian definition. I think you will find that the vast majority of Jews do not think that
those worshipping Jesus are not Jews because Jesus did not fulfill the work of the Messiah.

Now you may think such Jews are not using a reasonable definition. However you don't get to decide for them.

Not MY definition at all--it is their own definition, where "their"=the Jews most concerned, who have never relinquished their heritage, their culture, their faith, nor their identity. Why should some other Jews somewhere* else be permitted to strip these particular Jews of their identity--and for nothing more than believing the Messiah has come? AFAIK the same has not been done to believers in other Jewish messianic claimants.

Once again, I am not the one defining these people as Jews. They were born into it. They continued in it. The only difference between them and their own closest flesh and blood, in heritage, culture, or what have you, is the simple fact that they believe Jesus to be the Messiah.

You can call them non-Jews if you like. But if you do, just who is doing the defining here?

*And what, incidentally, will you say to their Jewish mothers etc., who are not Christian believers, who are in some cases extremely angry at their children, but who will totally bite your heads off if you say their sons and daughters are no longer Jews? I'm not getting in the middle of that fight.

[ 30. March 2015, 04:13: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Those sports fans don't think they're being disrespectful to American Indians even if you and I do.
To use your earlier justification; compared to the genocide and dislocation of the past, it's a mere bagatelle.
That's a filthy lie, I never made any such justification.

You have completely misrepresented my "justification" to take a cheap and offensive shot. I never mentioned genocide, I said that given Christians have appropriated the Jewish God and their scriptures, a meal is a mere bagatelle. There's a hell of a difference between comparing respectfully appropriating different religious and cultural practices versus murder, torture and dislocation.

Furthermore, the fact that Jesus was Jewish and we claim the Jewish scriptures and their notion of God puts a Sedar in a completely different category from the so-called sports fans.

Perhaps you don't think so, but for most Jews, the history of Christian treatment of Judaism looks a lot more like murder, torture and dislocation than it looks like respectful "appropriation".

Oh, and there's a similar ploy with one of those sports teams. They said the name was picked in respect for an early Indian Baseball player.

[ 30. March 2015, 04:26: Message edited by: Palimpsest ]

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

They're not practicing Jews by the definitions of the Rabbis of their mother's religion.
I'd be curious to the reception Chastmaster gets when he shows up at an Orthodox Jewish Shul and proclaims his belief in Jesus.

There's currently a fight going on in American Judaism about interfaith marraige.

When a Jewish mother and a Gentile father marry, as long as the mother does not convert the children are considered Jewish by some forms of Judaism.

When a Jewish Father and a Gentile mother marry, unless the mother takes steps to convert, many versions of Judaism do not consider the children Jewish. This is a problem given the high rate of intermarriage. So like the Pope contemplating children of same-sex partners, they are struggling to come to an accommodation.

Chastmaster is stating he's an ethnic Jew. That's fine, that is a matter of DNA.
Throwing a Seder is not an ethnic event. It's a religious event. It's not just reciting history, you're conducting prayers.

As for the theory that all Christians are Jews, I'm puzzled. The Gospels describe Gentile Christians and Jewish Christian. Did the progeny of the Gentile Christians, raised in the faith of their parents somehow become Jewish Christians? If not, when did this transformation happen?

[ 30. March 2015, 04:45: Message edited by: Palimpsest ]

Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:

quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Those sports fans don't think they're being disrespectful to American Indians even if you and I do.
To use your earlier justification; compared to the genocide and dislocation of the past, it's a mere bagatelle.
That's a filthy lie, I never made any such justification.

You have completely misrepresented my "justification" to take a cheap and offensive shot. I never mentioned genocide, I said that given Christians have appropriated the Jewish God and their scriptures, a meal is a mere bagatelle. There's a hell of a difference between comparing respectfully appropriating different religious and cultural practices versus murder, torture and dislocation.

Furthermore, the fact that Jesus was Jewish and we claim the Jewish scriptures and their notion of God puts a Sedar in a completely different category from the so-called sports fans.
Perhaps you don't think so, but for most Jews, the history of Christian treatment of Judaism looks a lot more like murder, torture and dislocation than it looks like respectful "appropriation".

Oh, and there's a similar ploy with one of those sports teams. They said the name was picked in respect for an early Indian Baseball player.

Surely you can't be so stupid as to not be able to see a difference between cultural appropriation as was being discussed and murder, torture and dislocation.

If your point is that cultural appropriation leads to and/or is the result of murder, torture and dislocation-then I disagree with you but at least make a case for it, because at the moment your points are totally irrelevant.

Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
They're not practicing Jews by the definitions of the Rabbis of their mother's religion.
I'd be curious to the reception Chastmaster gets when he shows up at an Orthodox Jewish Shul and proclaims his belief in Jesus.

And again in my case, it is indeed down my mother's line, through her mother and both of her mother's parents.

In either case, so what? (Not that I particularly plan on doing that--why would I?) We know who we are. More importantly, God--again, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Who sent the foretold Jewish Messiah in Whom we trust--knows who we are. And no one and nothing can take that away.

quote:
It's a religious event. It's not just reciting history, you're conducting prayers.

Yes--to the same God. If He's unhappy with it, that's between the person/people praying and Him, isn't it?

Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
When a Jewish mother and a Gentile father marry, as long as the mother does not convert the children are considered Jewish by some forms of Judaism.

Or even if she does convert, according to Orthodox Judaism.

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

Depends on the orthodox. In Israel, there are Orthodox Jews trying to restrict right of return to Jews who come from marriages by approved Orthodox Rabbis. I wouldn't qualify by that definition; my family has a long line of secular marriages.
It's not clear they'll win that, but that is the ultra-orthodox position. It's funny, since they were originally not in favor of the founding of modern Israel.

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
Surely you can't be so stupid as to not be able to see a difference between cultural appropriation as was being discussed and murder, torture and dislocation.

If your point is that cultural appropriation leads to and/or is the result of murder, torture and dislocation-then I disagree with you but at least make a case for it, because at the moment your points are totally irrelevant.

The point is that the cultural appropriation comes after a history of murder, torture and dislocation. That's why you don't get to dismiss objections to the cultural appropriation as "precious" or those who object as "stupid".

Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:

quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
Surely you can't be so stupid as to not be able to see a difference between cultural appropriation as was being discussed and murder, torture and dislocation.

If your point is that cultural appropriation leads to and/or is the result of murder, torture and dislocation-then I disagree with you but at least make a case for it, because at the moment your points are totally irrelevant.
The point is that the cultural appropriation comes after a history of murder, torture and dislocation. That's why you don't get to dismiss objections to the cultural appropriation as "precious" or those who object as "stupid".

So cultural appropriation is unacceptable if it follows a history of murder etc. So it'd be ok for the Chinese, for example, to hold a Sedar?

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :

There's an awful lot of Gentile guilt masquerading as evangelical correctness and feigned sensitivity on this thread. However, I do suspect our terms of reference may be different -very different. I've seen the more fundamentalist 'wanna-be-Jews' outfits on TV, who want to be able to grow their locks, wear prayer shawls and have a replica ark of the covenant under the TV stand at home while avoiding the need to give up their bacon sandwich and have to deal with the whole circumcision thing. I guess it suits them to a degree. In such a simplistic understanding they see the Law as providing a guiding marker of security in all ethical matters while conveniently ignoring hassidic and rabbinic indenture. They essentially invent a new religion to suit their means while doing damage and causing offence all at once; not least in true relations between their long divorced parents. If this is the reference point for some in thinking about the topic of this thread then we are all, I suspect, talking at cross purposes.

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
When a Jewish mother and a Gentile father marry, as long as the mother does not convert the children are considered Jewish by some forms of Judaism.
Or even if she does convert, according to Orthodox Judaism.

I have a friend who had seven Jewish great-grandparents and one Gentile great-grandparent. Unfortunately the Gentile great-grandparent was the mother's mother's mother. In each generation, the woman converted to Judaism, but the child of a convert is not considered to be born Jewish. My friend had to convert.

Moo

Posted by Bullfrog. (# 11014) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:

quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
Surely you can't be so stupid as to not be able to see a difference between cultural appropriation as was being discussed and murder, torture and dislocation.

If your point is that cultural appropriation leads to and/or is the result of murder, torture and dislocation-then I disagree with you but at least make a case for it, because at the moment your points are totally irrelevant.
The point is that the cultural appropriation comes after a history of murder, torture and dislocation. That's why you don't get to dismiss objections to the cultural appropriation as "precious" or those who object as "stupid".
So cultural appropriation is unacceptable if it follows a history of murder etc. So it'd be ok for the Chinese, for example, to hold a Sedar?

It'd be less insulting, but more bizarre. I don't think I'd call it "ok."

Posted by Uncle Pete (# 10422) on :

I have been to real seders. Despite what seems to be a common occurrence elsewhere, I have never been to a "Christian " seder. Or a teaching seder.

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I was toying with the idea - what would be comparable to Seder in Christianity - a festive party with old friends and new, abundant foods, abundant wine, retelling of the story everyone knows and loves, Children involved in the retelling, songs everyone has known since childhood (although a bit of stumbling on some of the verses) - that's our Christmas!

Perhaps. And you might think about those grouchy Christians who aren't thrilled when the Shopping Malls respectfully hire groups of Carolers to enliven their shopping festivities.

I think that Lent and Easter would be a closer match, even ignoring the calendar synchronization. You have special foods, weird food clear out rituals like pancakes , food abstinence, stories of a people surviving a terrible experiencing and triumphantly going on to a better life.

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

The parallel would be if a Christian minority living under a long history of intermittently brutal persecution in the Middle-East find that there's a craze for the dominant Muslim culture to reenact a slightly caricatured Good Friday service, albeit then going on after the reenactment to have sermons explain how the Prophet is in fact the fulfillment of all these stories.

Maybe that's water off a duck's back to some but probably not to all.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
And you might think about those grouchy Christians who aren't thrilled when the Shopping Malls respectfully hire groups of Carolers to enliven their shopping festivities.

Yes, I think they're a bunch of oversensitive prats as well.

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:

quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I was toying with the idea - what would be comparable to Seder in Christianity - a festive party with old friends and new, abundant foods, abundant wine, retelling of the story everyone knows and loves, Children involved in the retelling, songs everyone has known since childhood (although a bit of stumbling on some of the verses) - that's our Christmas!
I think that Lent and Easter would be a closer match, even ignoring the calendar synchronization. You have special foods, weird food clear out rituals like pancakes , food abstinence, stories of a people surviving a terrible experiencing and triumphantly going on to a better life.

But no party! Well, two friends invited me to an Easter afternoon party - one is atheist, the other is unchurched believer. The church friends I usually eat lunch with are each getting together with just family, no friends, some are even skipping the coffee to be with just family.

That's why Christmas seems more parallel, the happily including friends in the partying. The kids involved in the storytelling via "nativity play", songs everyone knows by heart.

It may seem backwards, but Christmas has become much more festive and more a community celebration than Easter.

Is that because as a culture we've switched from the day itself being the celebration to anticipation being a huge part of the fun, but Maundy Thursday & Good Friday block anticipatory celebration of Easter.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

I've got a vague memory of some sort of Christian seder in college. Not sure if there was a Jewish facilitator or not. Small group, very solemn.

Glad to know that a real seder can be festive! [Cool]

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I've got a vague memory of some sort of Christian seder in college. Not sure if there was a Jewish facilitator or not. Small group, very solemn.

Glad to know that a real seder can be festive!

We had one of those, too, at college. It was run by a local reformed Jewish synagogue group. The intention was basically teaching us about it. But it was a fairly lively and informal event. However, as it involved all the college community it didn't exactly have the intimate family feel that I imagine most genuine Seders must have?

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
We had one...at college...as it involved all the college community it didn't exactly have the intimate family feel that I imagine most genuine Seders must have?

Depends. Some synagogues hold Seders. The one a friend took me to had maybe 80 people, family in the sense of "all the cousins." But the shared history, culture, sense of identification gave it more of a family feel than a random 80 people would.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

An alternative view, from Rabbi Michael Lerner:

A Passover Seder Supplement (Not Just for Jews) to Bring to Your Family and Friends. (Huffpost)

quote:
If you are a serious Christian you might also think about creating an Easter Seder this Sunday (after all, Jesus was a Jew and his Last Supper was actually the first night of Passover and it was a Seder that Jesus led). So feel free to borrow any elements you choose of the Passover Seder Supplement for your Easter Seder.

That article is about the Seder supplement Rabbi Lerner created. The actual supplement is here, at his "Tikkun" magazine. And it is very, very long--a combination of prose and ritual.

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

quote:
Golden Key quotes Rabbi Michael Lerner:

quote:
Jesus was a Jew and his Last Supper was … a Seder that Jesus led.

No, it wasn't. Seders don't show up in the historical record until the second century.

Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:

quote:
Golden Key quotes Rabbi Michael Lerner:

quote:
Jesus was a Jew and his Last Supper was … a Seder that Jesus led.
No, it wasn't. Seders don't show up in the historical record until the second century.

Was the meal with ritualised elements to celebrate the Passover that is described in the Gospels an anachronism written into the Gospels during or after the second century?

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

There was a meal with ritualized elements celebrating Passover that Christ celebrated. The elements were different than those of the Seder, which were adapted at various times.

See the origins of Seder which mentions the approximate times of the various rituals. For example, a modern Seder doesn't sprinkle the blood of the lamb. The remaining vestige of that is a roast lamb shank bone.

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :

Posted by Evangeline:

quote:

Was the meal with ritualised elements to celebrate the Passover that is described in the Gospels an anachronism written into the Gospels during or after the second century?

The answer to that is we simply don't know. We know there is rabbinic teaching that was recorded from the time of Jesus. We know also that there was Midrashic material, referred to in the time of Jesus - which even the Gospels seem to engage at times. But it is still essentially an oral culture and therein lies the problem. Some scholars will not attempt any date for a Haggadah without the proof of a written text; an approach prevalent in Western scholarship that has a mistrust of oral transmission. It all depends on who you choose to read and what 'trust' you place in oral transmission. There are elements of the Haggadah which even at the earliest time of written form seem to be a mystery (such as the reason for 'four' sons, or the presence of an egg and obscure references to rabbinic schools). These things are not explained by the text, which to some suggests that oral transmission has failed, which in turn suggests that this was something done for a very, very long time and whose meaning has become lost. The written sources come from the second century which is not surprising as there doesn't seem to be any desire of urgency about a written record until after the collapse of the Temple and the mixing of cultures throughout the near east. It seems to have been the same for Christianity, although there are of course many other factors at work. If there was a Haggadah before the destruction of the temple (which I personally lean towards) it was obviously different from what was to come later because of the absence of the temple and the arrival of one dominant form of Judaism, but that leaves us with the problem of what is it that is different.

Personally, I lean towards there being a Haggadah that was added to by the second century rather than being written and formed anew. To me that seems to be the pattern in Judaism, rather than the creation of something entirely new. Those who did invent something new tended to be expelled from the synagogue.

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:

quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
Was the meal with ritualised elements to celebrate the Passover that is described in the Gospels an anachronism written into the Gospels during or after the second century?
The answer to that is we simply don't know.

Begging your pardon, fletcher christian, we do know, your long paragraph following, though interesting, being somewhat beside the point.

Here is Evangeline's good question, cleaned up:

Was the meal … written into the Gospels during or after the second century?

To which the answer is, no. The gospels, save perhaps for John, are first century writings.

[ 06. April 2015, 14:12: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]

Posted by Eliab (# 9153) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
To which the answer is, no. The gospels, save perhaps for John, are first century writings.

Then what is it precisely that you're so inordinately vexed about?

Any attempt whatever to recreate Jesus's last meal (other than, perhaps, the Eucharist)?

Any Christian attempt to mark Passover time or celebrate a Passover meal?

Any copying of the 'modern' Seder by non-Jews?

Any copying of the post-first-century elements of the 'modern' Seder by non-Jews?

And, as a supplementary question to whatever it is that you object to, why isn't the self-help remedy of simply "not showing up" adequate to address your concerns?

(I've never been to a Christian Seder, and have no particular impulse to change that fact, but it seems pretty clear that a mainstream Christian group celebrating one is unlikely to intend it as an insult to Jews or Judaism. At worst, or so it seems to me, it might be a bit naff. There's not room enough in all Hell to whinge about everything that goes on in church that someone or other thinks is a bit naff. Why single this out?)

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
To which the answer is, no. The gospels, save perhaps for John, are first century writings.
Then what is it precisely that you're so inordinately vexed about?

Nothing. There's are things to be properly vexed about. But we'll discuss that after we're precisely sure you've stopped beating your wife.

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :

Posted by Silent Acolyte:

quote:

Begging your pardon, fletcher christian, we do know, your long paragraph following, though interesting, being somewhat beside the point.

Well I don't think it was actually. Perhaps if you look at it in grand isolation the way you have presented it in your post, but the question was asked within a context and a context I continued to respond to.

This was the context:

quote:

No, it wasn't. Seders don't show up in the historical record until the second century.

It was also in the context of the rest of the thread, which includes more than your own responses.

The original question was this:

quote:

Was the meal with ritualised elements to celebrate the Passover that is described in the Gospels an anachronism written into the Gospels during or after the second century?

Quite different from your potted version and a complex question that I thought might benefit from more than a one word answer.

[ 06. April 2015, 22:33: Message edited by: fletcher christian ]

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
To which the answer is, no. The gospels, save perhaps for John, are first century writings.
Then what is it precisely that you're so inordinately vexed about?

On this page, I'm not inordinately vexed about anything.

Looking for vexation? Check my interventions on page one of this thread.

quote:
There's not room enough in all Hell to whinge about everything that goes on in church that someone or other thinks is a bit naff. Why single this out?

Forgive me for posting on a Hell thread.

fletcher christian, nothing was written into the synoptic gospels in the second century. That would be my strongest point. It's up to you to assert that John was completed far enough into the second century for written seder material to have been incorporated.

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

fletcher christian, I am being obtuse with regard to your long paragraph. My apologies.

I was reacting to the casual assertion that "we simply don't know," when, the answer to Evangeline's question as written, is categorically, of course not.

Your investigation into whether the oral tradition preceding the written seder materials of the second century may have informed the conduct of Passover meals during the time of Jesus or during the time of the gospels' formation is intriguing. There is scant evidence from the gospels to support it, but one wonders what the good observant Judaean was doing when he and his family could not make it to the Jerusalem temple for Passover.

Posted by k-mann (# 8490) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Several years ago my church had one of these events and after the meal, with no warning we were treated to a Christian film called The Bridge. Horrible experience.

I'm guessing it was in the good old 'the Father killed the Son for us' spirit?

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