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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: I never inhaled.
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
I’m increasingly bemused by the human ability to lie. I’m not talking just about telling deliberate falsehoods, like “I did not have sex with that woman,” or “You look great in that shirt, Honey.” I’m talking about our ability to lie to ourselves (“I can still pass for 35”) and our ability to invent, from whole cloth, alternative-yet-nonsensical realities like the rubbish I wasted an hour watching on the History Channel recently, and, in fact, the whole of fiction.
What a very peculiar ability. While I can see that, as a capacity, it has all sorts of survival value among, say, contemporary sub-prime mortgage financiers, sellers of used cars, and advertisers, I cannot for the life of me understand what possible evolutionary value such an ability would have had for early humans. Indeed, wouldn’t it seem an actual liability for a tribe of cave-persons to have, among its number, several folks who routinely misinformed the rest about where the best fishing was, or how to locate the tree with the honey-hive, or how far it really was to the next water-hole? Wouldn’t one expect such an ability to invent and express untruths to die out over time – if indeed, possessors’ cave-mates didn’t regularly bash their skulls in for misleading their kith and kin?
Clearly, that either didn’t happen, or the ability was less prevalent or even nonexistent back then. Obviously, it can’t have arisen earlier than language itself, but . . . still, what good was such a capacity and how and why did it arise, and how has it become an expected, if not entirely accepted, part of contemporary life?
Can anybody explain -- just, please, not in solely theological terms – how our capacity for spouting utter rubbish has flourished so widely for so long?
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Macrina
Shipmate
# 8807
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Posted
Actually I think the ability to lie is fundamental to maintaining the social fabric. Can you imagine what life would be like if everyone was 100% truthful and forthright ALL the time?
Lies in excess and to deliberately and harmfully deceive are a bad thing. But most of us lie to keep others happy or to maintain social graces i.e white lies. That is probably why it evolved and persists.
Posts: 535 | From: Christchurch, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2004
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
I have read some observations of primate structures like chimpanzees that have an alpha male hierarchy, that the females not only have sex with the current champions of the power struggle, but are known to slip quietly behind a tree with one of the weedy beta males for sex.
The lie is a useful tool in social life.
Humans have cherished story telling among other social skills for a very long time. And many stories are lies in the service of a higher truth.
Also note that to be able to detect liars, it helps to have some experience with them. Having people in your tribe who lie in ways that do not inflict major harm can be useful in preparing you for those whose lies may kill you.
[ 12. April 2015, 01:40: Message edited by: Palimpsest ]
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Macrina:
Actually I think the ability to lie is fundamental to maintaining the social fabric. Can you imagine what life would be like if everyone was 100% truthful and forthright ALL the time?
The social lie is absolutely vital. If a woman loses her husband and you thought he was a total ass, you need to say to her, "I'm so sorry to hear of your loss," not, "Good riddance, he was a total ass." The first is a lie. But it's a necessary lie.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
But is it lying to tell someone you care at least a bit for that you're sorry for their grief?
Also, there's always silence, or changing the subject, when people bring up The Awkward. It's rarely really necessary to actually lie.
In the face of the "Does this dress make me look fat?" dilemma, one can always tell a substitute truth. "That color looks great on you; Wow, you'll be right in style; What a gorgeous print; etc.
Anyway, just how much social lying was needed among people dressing in skins and painting themselves with mud? Even if you think Ooga looks dreadful decked out in emu feathers, you can always just slip to the back of the group and keep your mouth shut.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
I think it is something to do with imagination and the way we solve problems. If you are faced with a difficulty you need a brain that can invent hundred and one ways of solving it, then start analyzing which of them is reasonable. The same process is very good at inventing all sorts of alternative realities and it takes discipline and the use of a filter to keep it in check.
Children are incredible with their ability to imagine and it seems to me they all go through an early stage where their play world and real world are very entwined and difficult to tell apart.
I think inventiveness is the necessary evolutionary advantage and that gives us a tremendous capacity to lie as well.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Macrina
Shipmate
# 8807
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Posted
I'd be careful about dismissing the need to lie in so called primitive cultures. People are people are people. We can see that all over the world in all walks of life from Western Millionaires to Kalahari Bushmen. We are basically all the same when you scrub off our cultural trappings - we love, we grieve, we get angry, we get jealous, we get sad, we get happy etc.
Posts: 535 | From: Christchurch, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2004
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
There's a theory that humans still have head hair because it lets us style it to fit in with our social group. And beyond dubious evolutionary one of the Irish bog bodies from 2000 BCE had hair pomade from Spain. So don't dismiss the effort or skill to look beautiful. And don't dismiss the need to tell an occasional lie. I'm very fond of the traditional Jewish saying "Every bride is beautiful on her wedding day."
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
The social lie is absolutely vital. If a woman loses her husband and you thought he was a total ass, you need to say to her, "I'm so sorry to hear of your loss," not, "Good riddance, he was a total ass." The first is a lie. But it's a necessary lie.
It's not a lie at all. I can be sorry for my friend's loss even if her husband was a total ass. I can be sorry for her grief and sadness even if I think she's better off without him.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Macrina:
Actually I think the ability to lie is fundamental to maintaining the social fabric. Can you imagine what life would be like if everyone was 100% truthful and forthright ALL the time?
The social lie is absolutely vital. If a woman loses her husband and you thought he was a total ass, you need to say to her, "I'm so sorry to hear of your loss," not, "Good riddance, he was a total ass." The first is a lie. But it's a necessary lie.
Is there a difference between a lie that arises from an observation of what's happened (ie the death of an abusive spouse) as compared to a lie in response to a request for an opinion (ie do I look fat in this dress).
If asked for an opinion some of us don't lie - it's not because we won't it's because we can't. [We think in very narrow categories]. Expressing regret for example doesn't fit the same categories and it may not be a lie - just not the full truth.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Plus saying "sorry for your loss" gives the widow options. She can continue to express grief, or wanly smile and say "Thanks, hon, but I know what a jackass he was"--and maybe she'll even be able to trash talk a bit and vent.
If you start with "so he finally kicked the bucket, drinks are on me", she may feel she has to defend him. Follow her lead.
(Of course, this all depends on the people involved, their style of friendship, culture, etc.)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
There is a beautiful line from Ursula Le Guin's marvellous "The Left Hand of Darkness" (a plug here, there is a play based on the book starting on Radio 4 today at 3pm), which makes a good touchstone for me re mousethief's valid point.
"Silence is not what I should choose, but it suits me better than a lie".
In general, the issue is that people are often tempted to misrepresent, either to gain personal advantage, or to disadvantage someone else who they want to "put down" for other reasons. I guess there is some kind of pecking order issue at work there. Folks may see lying as a way of improving their status at the expense of others.
[Edited to get the quote word perfect]
[ 12. April 2015, 07:21: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
The ability to reframe the truth so as not to cause offence is closely related to the ability to lie. They both arise not just from an ingrained ability to imagine more than one permutation of reality, but also the ability to imagine what someone else feels like - i.e. what it would be like if I were them. Most people in all cultures ingest these abilities in early childhood. There are a few well known mental dislocations that cause some people not to be able to do this. It means they and their immediate families have much more difficult lives than the rest of us.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
It's more accurate to speak of deception in animals and plants, where it seems to be common. I have watched female birds do the broken wing manoeuvre, to distract a predator. Camouflage is another common trait.
As others have said, not being able to lie is a serious disability, indicating possibly some cognitive malfunction.
One of the interesting aspects of this is being able to present a facade or persona, a vital part of human interaction, although again it can become automatic, and hence self-destructive.
You can probably argue that cooperation in animals often involves deception; it's one way that the individual is distinguished - hence in humans not being able to deceive shows too much compliance, and an inability to be separate. Fear for the child who cannot dissimulate, and also the one who cannot stop.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
I enjoy making up preposterous stories. When mucking around, almost everything I say is an outrageous, unbelievable lie. I spend quite a bit of time thinking about my next outrageous lie, putting that lie into effect, and then telling my wife about it. I know deep down that my wife would prefer it if I shut up, but I can't help it.
I suspect that the capacity to lie is a product of our need to exist within groups. This is not a lie, honestly.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yes, I was thinking about fiction and acting, not lying really, but a kind of alternative reality. Well, probably stories are vital to human health and functioning.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
People often lie to smooth things over for themselves. They don't see the lies as important at all 'white lies'. My MIL was a master at it. If it got her out of an awkward situation, she lied.
"Sorry I can't make it today, I've got a tummy bug". When she hadn't at all - it was simply easier than saying "I don't want to come to lunch today, thank you".
So I see two sorts of social lie - Good ones where we are avoiding hurting others. And selfish ones when we are smoothing life over for ourselves.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
.. not lying really ...
A good phrase! This isn't theological, Porridge, but the ancient commandment is about "bearing false witness". The old oath in court, based on that is to tell "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth".
I think we can distinguish circumstances here. Diplomatic responses to avoid giving gratuitous offence do not involve telling the whole truth, rather they often involve us being economical with the truth. And in conversation with a grieving or upset person, there is a lot to be said in favour of considerate and discreet responses.
But when lives, liberties and reputations are at stake, the deliberate and considered bearing of false witness is a greater offence. To some extent that has been the underlying tension in the long-running Ferguson thread.
Stories may indeed help to build communities, inspire loyalties. But if the ability to distinguish between building up communities and bearing false witness in the process gets lost, then the community as a whole suffers. It's my morning for quotes, and so here is Frank Herbert's extremely good advice from the "Dune Series".
"If you put away from you those who would tell you the truth, those who remain will know what you want to hear. I can think of nothing more poisonous than to rot in the stink of your own reflections".
There is something poisonous about treating truth as "a moving target" (another quote), depending on what me might see as advantageous in misrepresentation. I think that is as much a "meme" in societies as the recognition that "there is a time and a place".
[ 12. April 2015, 08:24: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
Surely we learn early that certain behaviours get us what we most want? The hungry/frightened/hurting baby cries and its mother comes. So perhaps on the next cry, it's not that hungry etc?
We progress to speech and discover that our accounts of our experience is differently received - 'you're just making that up!' Mostly we achieve an understanding of how to communicate 'truthfully' - but we will also have gained an insight into things like evasion, tact, politeness, flattery - and also irony and other oblique methods of saying one thing and meaning another. Deliberate deception is just one end of a spectrum of strategies to facilitate our social survival and prosperity.
I expect most of us live at the level of mild lying - 'Lovely evening and a delicious dinner!' (Thinks: I never want to hear about holidays in the Algarve ever again and I'm pretty sure that was M&S lasagne), because there are normally no situations so pressing or extreme to require otherwise. But if your life was more dangerous or precarious? Or if you could only gain certain ends - justified, in your eyes - by causing people to believe your version? Are we not, at this point, into how advertising, business, the media and politics actually operate?
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Very good points about irony and sarcasm, which are a bit like transparent lies, meant to be seen through. I have enjoyed our little chat this morning, and it's so good to see how your spelling has improved! But of course, that could be non-sarcastic.
The whole field of dissimulation is quite fascinating, and enormous. I was thinking about pretending, and the great pleasure in watching an actor do it; less enjoyable when my mother used to do it (badly).
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Another fascinating issue, which I have encountered a lot via work, is lying to yourself. I would say this is common, although complicated by varying degrees of unconsciousness and denial. In that sense, I probably don't think that I am lying to myself, until I realize that I am!
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
It depends on what is gained by telling, or maintaining a lie. Is it a greater good or a greater harm? And who is the judge as to what the difference is between the two? The Mother of all circular arguments I should imagine.
As individuals we can often prefer the lie in regards to many aspects of our existence, particularly when the truth might be not just uncomfortable but even unbearable.
I should have thought the maintenance of faith must fall into that category somewhere along the line. Nothing wrong with a personal happy deception so long as no one else is hurt by it.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
People often lie to smooth things over for themselves. They don't see the lies as important at all 'white lies'. My MIL was a master at it. If it got her out of an awkward situation, she lied.
"Sorry I can't make it today, I've got a tummy bug". When she hadn't at all - it was simply easier than saying "I don't want to come to lunch today, thank you".
So I see two sorts of social lie - Good ones where we are avoiding hurting others. And selfish ones when we are smoothing life over for ourselves.
I have a relative who does this a lot - it may be a social lie but it means I don't believe a word she says without checking it with others first..
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
mousethief. What lie? You mean you're not sorry for her loss?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
One of the interesting aspects of this is being able to present a facade or persona, a vital part of human interaction, although again it can become automatic, and hence self-destructive.
One of my daughters was involved in the children's theater long ago. After she grew up she discovered that the training in projecting a persona was invaluable in certain situations, e.g. job interviews.
She was always completely honest in what she said, but she could create the impression of being poised and relaxed when she was anything but.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Macrina:
I'd be careful about dismissing the need to lie in so called primitive cultures. People are people are people. We can see that all over the world in all walks of life from Western Millionaires to Kalahari Bushmen. We are basically all the same when you scrub off our cultural trappings - we love, we grieve, we get angry, we get jealous, we get sad, we get happy etc.
Yes, and we also lie.
The thing is, I doubt that early humans had concepts / customs which included the extremer forms of individualism that we cling to now. If you're one of a group of 30-40 people utterly dependent on one another for bare survival in an environment chock-full of dangers both seen and anticipatable as well as unseen and unpredictable, and you have neither mirrors nor any possibility of either fame or the slightest bit of privacy, and everybody in your group knows pretty much everything about you anyway, where and how do we develop this need for the social lie?
When 2-year-old Gog tells 34-year-old Gramps, "You snore like a cougar," and everybody within hearing distance laughs in acknowledgment, it's going to be hard for even the fondest mate to smooth things over by claiming it isn't so.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
she could create the impression of being poised and relaxed when she was anything but.
And here is another evolutionary survival advantage. The animal that looks calm and assured when face to face with a bear is more likely to survive the encounter than one that turns and runs in terror.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
I’m increasingly bemused by the human ability to lie. I’m not talking just about telling de
Can anybody explain -- just, please, not in solely theological terms – how our capacity for spouting utter rubbish has flourished so widely for so long?
Going back to the OP Q, I suppose one 'beneficial' effect of self-deception would be if it makes it easier to intentionally deceive others, for selfish gain. If you need an easy example with direct genetic implications "Uriah you're just the man we need",
Similarly the capability for little white lies might be good for all society (as already mentioned).
But a more hopeful example I suppose one practical effect of the ability to will oneself into believing you know something that honest reflection will say you don't, is if it gets you over a barrier, Columbus style.
If say water holes are about 70% of a days walk apart, then a tribe that is cautious will be stuck* and eventually grow so large it drinks the hole dry or be stuck in a lean year. While a tribe that has some (false) confidence to go past the point of no return will eventually spread and have more room to grow and a better buffer against bad years.
*ish. of course there are clever ways to extend things, but they apply to both groups and there will be some selection pressure to have hardier people but again that applies to both groups (intuitively I'd have thought more to the second).
[x post, with mdjion who gives another, low society just-so story]
[code]
[ 12. April 2015, 13:54: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
from the OP
the whole of fiction.
How is fiction synonymous with lying?
If it were then the parable of the sower, although based on the agricultural practices of the time, would be a lie. Similarly the Good Samaritan.
As for someone having a beam in their eye...
The theology is not that if something is not 100% factual, such as stories made up to illustrate a point or hyperbole, then it is a lie and therefore sinful. Not at all.
the 9th Commandment is not 'you shall not lie: The 9th Commandment is 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour.' The against your neighbour bit is important, what it is saying is that lying in order to get someone into trouble or to shift blame onto someone else in not on. I can find no rule against the 'that dress suits you' kind of lie at all.
White lies, along with fiction and hyperbole to illustrate a point, seem OK to me.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
In the face of the "Does this dress make me look fat?" dilemma, one can always tell a substitute truth.
Or talk plainly, like my German relatives. They would say yes to your question, both because perhaps it does make you look fat, and because no-one should ask such stupid questions. With the rationale that if you ask if you look fat, you already believe you do so we shouldn't argue about it.
The general point is that there are major cultural differences with such things.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
Back to Porridge's little band of hunter-gatherers - I bet when they were huddled in the cave of an evening, conversation turned to the deeds of Enki - now there was a hunter - my grandfather told me...
We are inveterate story tellers. When we meet with friends, are we not continually recounting this or that thing that happened? And - unless colossal bores - shaping our narrative to leave out some things and heighten others, make it funnier, or more dramatic?
And do we not- from that ur-campfire on - like and reward the storytellers who best please or entertain or inspire or even frighten us?
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
quote:
from the OP
the whole of fiction.
How is fiction synonymous with lying?
How is it not? Lawrence Block called his writing advice book Telling Lies for Fun and Profit. Was he wrong?
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Well, fiction is transparent; everyone knows that it's pretend. But I think there is a connection between all the different forms of pretence. I wonder if anyone has written a magisterial book describing them all, it could be a wonderful book.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, fiction is transparent; everyone knows that it's pretend. But I think there is a connection between all the different forms of pretence. I wonder if anyone has written a magisterial book describing them all, it could be a wonderful book.
Get writing! ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
‘Now, what I want is, Facts. Teach these boys and girls nothing but Facts. Facts alone are wanted in life. Plant nothing else, and root out everything else. You can only form the minds of reasoning animals upon Facts: nothing else will ever be of any service to them. This is the principle on which I bring up my own children, and this is the principle on which I bring up these children. Stick to Facts, sir!’
Neither let it be deemed too saucy a comparison to balance the highest point of man’s wit with the efficacy of nature; but rather give right honor to the Heavenly Maker of that maker, who, having made man to His own likeness, set him beyond and over all the works of that second nature. Which in nothing he showeth so much as in poetry, when with the force of a divine breath he bringeth things forth far surpassing her doings, with no small argument to the incredulous of that first accursed fall of Adam,—since our erected wit maketh us know what perfection is, and yet our infected will keepeth us from reaching unto it.
Me, I'm with Sydney rather than Gradgrind.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
The thing is, I doubt that early humans had concepts / customs which included the extremer forms of individualism that we cling to now.
Possibly not, but that didn't stop them from lying for survival reasons.
Compare Pharoah's physical size and the size of his chariot with the sizes of those he vanquishes.
The court artists couldn't tell the truth, could they? They might not live too long if they did.
Sycophancy was much more useful than accurate representation of the powerful and their deeds.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Firenze--
Um, is that from a book?
Thanks.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
The thing is, I doubt that early humans had concepts / customs which included the extremer forms of individualism that we cling to now. If you're one of a group of 30-40 people utterly dependent on one another for bare survival in an environment chock-full of dangers both seen and anticipatable as well as unseen and unpredictable, and you have neither mirrors nor any possibility of either fame or the slightest bit of privacy, and everybody in your group knows pretty much everything about you anyway, where and how do we develop this need for the social lie?
I'm not sure what the minimum group size is for lying to be useful; three or maybe two. At a stretch one.
Fame is relative, you can be the most famous person in the world when your world is your group of 30. Water is a mirror. One reason to lie is to not have everyone know everything you do or are. Social lying predates our species, but most species that have aggression also have bluffing.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
lie - an intentional untruth with the purpose to deceive. I would add that the truth misrepresented is also a lie.
I hate lying, even though I have done and will likely do so again.
I do not think lying is necessary, but we create situations in which it is difficult to avoid.
"Does this dress make me look fat"? This question is not always completely honest. What is being said?
-am I attractive?
-does this garment flatter my figure or offend it?
-I wish to fight
I've had the question asked of me with all three of those intentions.
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
And here is another evolutionary survival advantage. The animal that looks calm and assured when face to face with a bear is more likely to survive the encounter than one that turns and runs in terror.
Shock can also work for this. A friend of mine tells of rounding a bend in a path and coming face-to-face with a young bear. Whilst he stood in shock, the bear turned and ran. So bravely bluffing or paralysed with indecision...
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I think it is something to do with imagination and the way we solve problems. If you are faced with a difficulty you need a brain that can invent hundred and one ways of solving it, then start analyzing which of them is reasonable. The same process is very good at inventing all sorts of alternative realities and it takes discipline and the use of a filter to keep it in check.
Children are incredible with their ability to imagine and it seems to me they all go through an early stage where their play world and real world are very entwined and difficult to tell apart.
I think inventiveness is the necessary evolutionary advantage and that gives us a tremendous capacity to lie as well.
I think I agree with this. Left on their own, children frequently create games that are both an imitation of and a preparation for the adult world they see around them. It seems to me people's ability to imagine something not true (such as a better world) would be advantageous to society as a whole.
But I can also see how in a highly individualistic and competitive society (such as we have in the US), where there are not necessarily negative consequences for bearing false witness, it could be tempting for people to use this ability to either put themselves above others or tear others down.
I've been thinking about this a lot recently, in part because UVA's rape hoax story has been in the news again (and in general I've been disappointed with the reaction). On the one hand "Jackie" used a fictional name, so she didn't put any one individual at risk for false imprisonment and a social and legal nightmare the way the accuser in the Duke Lacrosse case did. On the other hand, her actions had potentially severe consequences for a lot of people, and I'm really uncomfortable with the way that is being dismissed.
And on a personal level, while I can understand why people lie sometimes, there's one particular lie that's still affecting me that... I don't know. I can't figure out why the person would have told it. And it's been bugging me.
And in the sermon this morning, my priest informed us that "if we say we believe and don't act, we're liars." He then backtracked, saying maybe that was a bit harsh.
But I've been wondering: as society gets increasingly secular and fewer and fewer people are following a religious commandment not to bear false witness, and lying is frequently rewarded with material success (successful con men tend to be wealthy and have a lot of nice stuff), how is lying to be discouraged? I mean, I think many of us form smaller communities where we can shame liars and/or punish them with disbelief the next time they claim something, but most of us have still have to interact with the wider world... (which includes police officers who shoot people and plant evidence and police officers who watch them and do nothing).
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
In the face of the "Does this dress make me look fat?" dilemma, one can always tell a substitute truth.
Or talk plainly, like my German relatives. They would say yes to your question, both because perhaps it does make you look fat, and because no-one should ask such stupid questions. With the rationale that if you ask if you look fat, you already believe you do so we shouldn't argue about it.
The general point is that there are major cultural differences with such things.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
But I've been wondering: as society gets increasingly secular and fewer and fewer people are following a religious commandment not to bear false witness, and lying is frequently rewarded with material success (successful con men tend to be wealthy and have a lot of nice stuff), how is lying to be discouraged? I mean, I think many of us form smaller communities where we can shame liars and/or punish them with disbelief the next time they claim something, but most of us have still have to interact with the wider world... (which includes police officers who shoot people and plant evidence and police officers who watch them and do nothing).
I must have missed that golden age before the modern secular age when people didn't lie because they were religious. In fact in a religious age people use piety as a cloak for lies. At what point in time was this when the clergy did not include its fair share of liars and hypocrites?
Same as it ever was.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
I must have missed that golden age before the modern secular age when people didn't lie because they were religious. In fact in a religious age people use piety as a cloak for lies. At what point in time was this when the clergy did not include its fair share of liars and hypocrites?
Same as it ever was.
Who said that there was some golden age when religious people didn't lie? I said they were commanded not to bear false witness.
But go ahead, make the argument: bearing false witness is going to get someone everything they ever wanted in the world. They're highly unlikely to get caught and face any consequences for doing it. Why should they not do it?
Or do you not see anything wrong with bearing false witness?
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
Why don't you start by making the case that "fewer and fewer people are following a religious commandment not to bear false witness"?
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
You know, when you use double quotes marks, the words in between the quotes marks are supposed to be things that were actually said.
But unless you'd like to argue that there are a lot of people who follow the commandments of a religion they don't belong to, there are demonstrably more people not following that commandment.
No, that does not mean that agnostics and atheists and unaffiliated's don't have morals. But I'm still interested in the answer to the question I posed.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Firenze--
Um, is that from a book?
Thanks.
The first quote is from Hard Times by Charles Dickens: a novel which sets a utilitarian reductionist capitalism against the superfluous world of the circus, which only embodies things like enjoyment and spectacle and a connection with the natural and instinctual.
The second is from Sir Philip Sydney's The Defence of Poesy written at a time when the 'poetry (read fiction) is lies' argument was still a live position.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
You know, when you use double quotes marks, the words in between the quotes marks are supposed to be things that were actually said.
I'm quoting your exact words from the last paragraph of this post right here. quote:
But unless you'd like to argue that there are a lot of people who follow the commandments of a religion they don't belong to, there are demonstrably more people not following that commandment.
Then you shouldn't have any problem demonstrating it.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
Then you shouldn't have any problem demonstrating it.
No, you first. Show me the existence of a single person who does something because a religion commands it but considers themselves unaffiliated with any religion.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
The thing is, I doubt that early humans had concepts / customs which included the extremer forms of individualism that we cling to now.
Possibly not, but that didn't stop them from lying for survival reasons.
Compare Pharoah's physical size and the size of his chariot with the sizes of those he vanquishes.
The court artists couldn't tell the truth, could they? They might not live too long if they did.
Sycophancy was much more useful than accurate representation of the powerful and their deeds.
I am quite sure that the Egyptian artists would be appalled at the idea that they were being deliberately deceitful; they were just depicting reality as it really really was. Whether or not Tutankhamun actually participated in a campaign in Nubia is totally irrelevant to the eternal truth that 'Pharaoh smites vile Kushites'.
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
If you're looking for an approximation of early human society, you might consider Those lying Apes and the politics of chimpanzees.
It's hard to believe that the behavior doesn't go back before the dawn of the species.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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