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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The foundations of happiness
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Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551
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Posted
What makes people "happy?" Are there some common factors that underpin happiness? Are there some factors that promote happiness and make it more likely to be be sustainable?
Plato saw happiness in terms of contemplating beauty, and Aristotle in pursuing virtue. Benedict also saw happiness as being able to be so confident in the face of death that he could keep his own mortality consistently before himself.
How would you begin to answer the question "What must one do to be happy?"
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Posts: 950 | From: Virtually anywhere | Registered: Jul 2011
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Freedom from want. Helping others be free from want. Lightening someone's burden, even if only for a moment. Seeing beyond one's own burdens.
The Joy of the moment.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
I think the things mentioned are external tools that can be used to try to influence happiness, but at the core it's an inside job.
Beauty, truth, freedom from want, helping others - some people with all this are unhappy, some in poverty and ugly environment and physically dependent on others rather than being able to help, are happy.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
In my life, I found it when I stopped looking for it. This is partly to do with getting older, and I don't expect young people to do this, they need their goals and methods, and so on. But in the end, there is no how, in fact it's the how that prevents happiness.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Full Circle
Shipmate
# 15398
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Posted
No idea, it comes and it goes. It is separate from love, more obviously interrelated with hope and fulfilment ( but not entirely) and not unrelated to circumstance.
I wish you all the joy in the world as you work it out!
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Beware the monocausal fallacy (Anon)
Posts: 232 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2010
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
I think happiness is an ill-defined term.
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
The two questions are not necessarily connected.
What makes me feel happy at any one time will be transitory, whether a particular sunset or thrilling experience or music or helping someone or time spent with loved ones or feeling well after illness etc.
The feeling of happiness can't be guaranteed or forced, and so if I were to try to answer 'What must one do to be happy' I wouldn't suggest pursuing the above to that end.
My answer would be to draw close to God, the source of joy, as joy is far deeper and longer lasting than happiness. It remains when happiness has moved over into sadness.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Meike
Shipmate
# 3006
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Posted
Beautifully said, Raptor Eye. Deep down, there can still be joy, even if you’re profoundly unhappy.
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“A god who let us prove his existence would be an idol” ― Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Posts: 250 | From: I like this place | Registered: Jul 2002
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
Maybe Belonging?
Either with another person...or in a place...in God?
[ 03. May 2015, 21:27: Message edited by: Ethne Alba ]
Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Meike:
Beautifully said, Raptor Eye. Deep down, there can still be joy, even if you’re profoundly unhappy.
Can someone explain the difference between joy and happiness please? I don't see how one can be both joyful and unhappy at the same time.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
The question of what a human needs to be happy is a common one, but I wonder if it is the right question. I'm coming to think it may actually create a problem, if happiness is ever the goal of anything we do, because it centres things on the self.
I would further distinguish contentedness from happiness, which, in this view means accommodating your personal aspirations and wants to the reality you actually have, and forming your will, feelings and spirit to it. I think we're also supposed to get to thank-you for it.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
The question of what a human needs to be happy is a common one, but I wonder if it is the right question. I'm coming to think it may actually create a problem, if happiness is ever the goal of anything we do, because it centres things on the self.
Would you ever want someone else to be happy? If so, what would you want for them?
Posts: 950 | From: Virtually anywhere | Registered: Jul 2011
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Hiro's Leap
Shipmate
# 12470
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Posted
Judging from my friends, I think childhood experiences are extremely important in determining adult happiness. I don't just mean serious abuse or neglect: having a cold, distant or severely critical parent can have repercussions for the rest of your life. The same is true of severe bullying at school.
These experiences may not be entirely harmful - they can give the person empathy or increased determination, but (IME) they impact the capacity for happiness a lot.
Aside from that, I think that being a respected and valued member of a community is important, as is freedom from constant pain - happiness is hard with toothache.
Posts: 3418 | From: UK, OK | Registered: Mar 2007
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
Look up Martin Seligman.
He's done clinical testing on -- backing up.
I've been studying positive psychology, how to become happier. Current theory:
A person has a "set-point" of happiness, the level of happiness you return to between events good or bad. On a scale of 1 to 10, what's your basic, normal, day after day happiness level? Most say 6, maybe 7, some it's more like 4. If you win 10 million in a lottery, if you get run over by a truck and lose both your lags, either way a year later you have returned to that set point. Events are the surface waves, they don't really affect the ocean current.
But you can raise that set-point! With exercises. Pages 8 & 9 of this pdf briefly describe clinical testing of a few techniques. One of the winners is "three good things": every night before bed you write down 3 good things that happened that day, and why they happened. (Lots of examples on line.)
Look for the TED talk "Martin Seligman: The new era of positive psychology." It's ten years old, there's more knowledge now, but he talks about three categories - 1. pursuing pleasant emotions/experiences, 2. pursuing engagement, being in the flow, 3. pursuing meaning, being in service of something larger than yourself. Of the three, item 1 has a square wave effect on happiness, you enjoy the experience and then it ends and so does the pleasure it brought, in fact as it continues it becomes less pleasure, you habituate quickly. Items 2 & 3 bring lasting results.
But there are also important aspects of finding your strengths and using them. A job with purpose that you hate the daily work of the job, won't help your happiness level!
Lots of recent research in this area, Seligman is one of the big names. Do some looking around the web, there's more than you have time for on all this.
But the fact that cultivating an attitude of gratitude makes you happier suggests it's happiness is not about what you experience or even what you do, it is deeper inside.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:
Judging from my friends, I think childhood experiences are extremely important in determining adult happiness. I don't just mean serious abuse or neglect: having a cold, distant or severely critical parent can have repercussions for the rest of your life. The same is true of severe bullying at school.
These experiences may not be entirely harmful - they can give the person empathy or increased determination, but (IME) they impact the capacity for happiness a lot.
Aside from that, I think that being a respected and valued member of a community is important, as is freedom from constant pain - happiness is hard with toothache.
Absolutely right about childhood. And one problem here is that people try to avoid their unhappiness, or as the famous analyst Masud Khan, said, it's our self-cure that has to be dismantled, and there are many of these. Of course, this is painful, but eventually can restore happiness. Those who do not remember the past, are compelled to repeat it.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Meike:
Beautifully said, Raptor Eye. Deep down, there can still be joy, even if you’re profoundly unhappy.
Can someone explain the difference between joy and happiness please? I don't see how one can be both joyful and unhappy at the same time.
The joy that I am talking about is inner contentment and more than that, it's a deep pleasure and peace with life that lasts through periods of unhappiness.
I have described my understanding of happiness in the previous post.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Hiro's Leap
Shipmate
# 12470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
And one problem here is that people try to avoid their unhappiness, or as the famous analyst Masud Khan, said, it's our self-cure that has to be dismantled, and there are many of these.
Yes, finding ways to avoid pain can cause problems. Alcohol is one obvious answer, but excessive work is another. On the whole, my most successful friends had the least happy backgrounds. I'm not sure what to make of that.
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
[Martin Seligman] talks about three categories - 1. pursuing pleasant emotions/experiences, 2. pursuing engagement, being in the flow, 3. pursuing meaning, being in service of something larger than yourself.
For me there's a lot of truth in this. My 'flow' activities include reading, drawing and photography. Good conversation and sport too, sometimes. These don't make me grinning-ear-to-ear happy, but they're satisfying and they allow me to lose myself in them. They're especially effective if other people are involved.
One problem with depression and anxiety is that it can cut off access to this feeling of flow. This makes depression a double whammy: you feel crappy AND can't access some major mechanisms to feel better.
quote:
cultivating an attitude of gratitude makes you happier
It seems to me that some aspects of traditional prayer can be extremely healthy psychologically - e.g. regularly giving thanks.
Posts: 3418 | From: UK, OK | Registered: Mar 2007
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Meike
Shipmate
# 3006
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Meike:
Beautifully said, Raptor Eye. Deep down, there can still be joy, even if you’re profoundly unhappy.
Can someone explain the difference between joy and happiness please? I don't see how one can be both joyful and unhappy at the same time.
The main difference for me is that happiness depends on circumstances and is a temporal state, whereas joy is an inner attitude that can persevere in adverse circumstances.
At least, that's what I meant.
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“A god who let us prove his existence would be an idol” ― Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Posts: 250 | From: I like this place | Registered: Jul 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:
Judging from my friends, I think childhood experiences are extremely important in determining adult happiness. I don't just mean serious abuse or neglect: having a cold, distant or severely critical parent can have repercussions for the rest of your life. The same is true of severe bullying at school.
These experiences may not be entirely harmful - they can give the person empathy or increased determination, but (IME) they impact the capacity for happiness a lot.
Having experienced all that's foul on your list, I'd suggest that there are no necessary life experience preconditions. But I'd suggest that it is necessary to get beyond one's own suffering and the resulting pinning down of your consciousness. I can recall extremely clearly when I have received the reaching out of someone. It is restorative. This restoration is probably at least partly why the Jesus story resonate.
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
The joy that I am talking about is inner contentment and more than that, it's a deep pleasure and peace with life that lasts through periods of unhappiness.
The unhappiness you write of, I decided that it must be the thing that motivates to do something about it, even as it seems to be associated with not doing things. It also seems to me that the foundations of Christianity as written are in unhappiness and suffering, with no real promise of happiness. But rather, contentedness (and maybe joy; haven't worked that out ) in having done things okay or acceptably.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Alyosha
Shipmate
# 18395
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Posted
I still think that happiness may simply be a matter of getting what you want.
Posts: 162 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2015
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Hiro's Leap
Shipmate
# 12470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
I still think that happiness may simply be a matter of getting what you want.
I have a friend who deals with his low self-esteem by persuading lots of women to sleep with him. Getting what he wants makes him briefly happy, but it doesn't seem to help much in the long-term.
What you want isn't necessarily what you need.
Posts: 3418 | From: UK, OK | Registered: Mar 2007
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Also, the old saying reversed that - it's wanting what you get that produces contentment.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Alyosha
Shipmate
# 18395
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Also, the old saying reversed that - it's wanting what you get that produces contentment.
I'm just not sure about that. St Paul said that he had learned the secret of being content in every circumstance but, frustratingly, he didn't share that secret. Maybe a side effect of learning that secret was that it couldn't be shared? Maybe people who are really happy simply don't feel a need to share the secret of their happiness?
Christ said that his followers should ask for what they truly want and that in receiving that desire their 'joy would be full'. Christ himself had passions and wants (and still does).
He also talked about 'life in all its fullness' which implied that he affirmed a life which had both highs and lows, mountain and valley experiences.
Maybe it's more about satisfaction than happiness.
Also, 'Maslow's hierarchy of needs' implies that the search for happiness or meaning could be a luxury of the rich. When you are simply trying to survive, happiness is not such a priority.
Posts: 162 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2015
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Also, the old saying reversed that - it's wanting what you get that produces contentment.
I'm just not sure about that. St Paul said that he had learned the secret of being content in every circumstance but, frustratingly, he didn't share that secret.
He didn't say that at all. He said he had learned to be content. No secrets involved.
Like many things, I think contentment is something to be worked at rather than some mysterious thing imparted immediately to a select few, which is in many ways how we'd prefer it.
Not that I'm that good at being content myself.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yes, I think you can work at it, for one thing, dealing with being dissatisfied. Well, sometimes that shows genuine need, and sometimes, it's something addictive. I've found that 35 years meditation has helped me, by placing me in the present moment. How's that for size?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Alyosha
Shipmate
# 18395
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Posted
'He didn't say that at all. He said he had learned to be content. No secrets involved.
Like many things, I think contentment is something to be worked at rather than some mysterious thing imparted immediately to a select few, which is in many ways how we'd prefer it.
Not that I'm that good at being content myself'
Likewise, but I think the NIV and some other Bible versions have Philippians 4:12 as 'I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want.'
Some people think that the 'secret' is in the next verse which says something like 'I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me'. But that doesn't really reveal his method.
Or, like you say, there just may be no esoteric secret to it...
[ 05. May 2015, 10:01: Message edited by: Alyosha ]
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Alyosha
Shipmate
# 18395
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Yes, I think you can work at it, for one thing, dealing with being dissatisfied. Well, sometimes that shows genuine need, and sometimes, it's something addictive. I've found that 35 years meditation has helped me, by placing me in the present moment. How's that for size?
That's impressive. Because I'm a worrier most of my meditations tend to end up a bit negative.
Posts: 162 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2015
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Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Also, the old saying reversed that - it's wanting what you get that produces contentment.
I'm just not sure about that. St Paul said that he had learned the secret of being content in every circumstance but, frustratingly, he didn't share that secret.
He didn't say that at all. He said he had learned to be content. No secrets involved.
Like many things, I think contentment is something to be worked at rather than some mysterious thing imparted immediately to a select few, which is in many ways how we'd prefer it.
Not that I'm that good at being content myself.
Paul does refer to a "secret." Here you go:
"I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want.I can do all this through him who gives me strength." [Phil 4:12-13].
Must say I'd always read this the same way as Alyosha. The operative word in this for me is "learned." There is something about contentment that can only be discovered through experience.
Did you reckon that putting any significance on the word "secret" is a red herring, or did you just forget it was there ![[Biased]](wink.gif) .
Posts: 950 | From: Virtually anywhere | Registered: Jul 2011
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Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551
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Posted
@Alyosha - I've x-posted with you.
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Posts: 950 | From: Virtually anywhere | Registered: Jul 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Yes, I think you can work at it, for one thing, dealing with being dissatisfied. Well, sometimes that shows genuine need, and sometimes, it's something addictive. I've found that 35 years meditation has helped me, by placing me in the present moment. How's that for size?
That's impressive. Because I'm a worrier most of my meditations tend to end up a bit negative.
Yes, solitary meditation can become a worry-fest; I've always done a Zen type method in a group, which tends to release negativity and foster love.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
I knew a child who was so severely handicapped physically that she could not hold her head up. She had normal intelligence, and most of the time she appeared to enjoy life. She especially enjoyed laughing, and I noticed she was always on the lookout for things to laugh at.
I learned a lot from watching that child.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
'Maslow's hierarchy of needs' implies that the search for happiness or meaning could be a luxury of the rich. When you are simply trying to survive, happiness is not such a priority.
Maslow was wrong.
When I first was introduced to his pyramid, I worked for the military so I asked the obvious question - "where does dying for your country fit into the pyramid?" The answer, "It doesn't."
Neither does dying for your faith. Or continuing on a project all night in spite of needing sleep and food just because you are so engrossed, or you want the self-actualization of completing the project more than you want to satisfy the body's physical needs.
How about fasting, which many religions encourage?
It's common to experience "I'm too hungry (or sleepy) to think," but some people will continue a hunger strike to death rather than give in to the need to eat and give up the cause, continue to suffer torture rather than betray friends.
Many a parent will starve themselves or work to death to feed their child.
And "safety" would eliminate all extreme sport! Maybe even common sports, injuries are common and yet we love the sport more than we dislike the risk of a broken bone, and if injured the first question is "how soon can I get back into the game?"
Maslow's pyramid is just plain wrong.
(Someone told me he recently changed it; I don't know. I've ignored him since I first ran into that famous but wrong pyramid.)
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
That's a really interesting observation, Belle Ringer. I have believed the pyramid of needs for so long that I haven't given it any thought. But I think you may be right.
Oftentimes I have been very uncomfortably bursting for the loo and 'sat on it' as what I was doing was far too fascinating to move!
Lack of safety is also a difficult one. Look at the recent earthquake in Nepal. Many climbers risk their lives, but the earthquake has put many off - it's a very different kind of risk. When they are climbing they have adrenaline + control. Natural disasters do not come anywhere near the 'enjoyable risk' category.
Yet - try and get a thirsty/hungry child to concentrate on his work, not easy!
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
Paul does refer to a "secret."
No he doesn't. On inspection the Greek word is memyēmai.
First off, memyēmai is a hapax legomen i.e. occurs only here in the NT. Which means that it's a dodgy foundation for definitive answers in the first place. Its plain meaning is not 'secret'; that is an interpretation by translators.
So, I did not just "forget it was there". It's not there, whatever the NIV might say. Before attempting put-downs, try at least comparing a few versions if not looking at what the Greek actually says.
According to Strong's the root word is mueó, I initiate, instruct; pass: I am disciplined, learn (a lesson). The KJV translates Phil 4:12 as "I am instructed...".
Paul seems to be borrowing from the esoteric sense of "initiation" to say "my 'initation' [unlike those of pagan religions] has been acquired through experience".
The concept of esoteric knowledge of a "secret" to spiritual growth is entirely foreign to Paul, although not to some of the whackier parts of Christianity, today as then.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Alyosha
Shipmate
# 18395
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Posted
Apologies Eutychus, I don't have the luxury of brinkmanship as a newbie here so I can assure you no offence was meant.
You could be right and St Paul could have learned a lesson of some kind but either way he wasn't sharing what his method was. I think most Christians take it as a kind of counting of blessings in difficult situations or of thinking of those who are worse off. These are two techniques for handling bad situations but I don't think they necessarily result in happiness or contentment.
Although I do count blessings and think of those worse off when I'm suffering, I don't find that it helps that much. It keeps things in perspective and is a kind of basic meditation which most people do, but it doesn't make things much better.
If St Paul was shipwrecked and whipped and all of these kind of things, he can't have just been counting his blessings or thinking of those in worse situations (although I'm sure there would be many people willing to tell him to do so). He must have had some other way of dealing with these situations which was more effective?
Posts: 162 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2015
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
Apologies Eutychus, I don't have the luxury of brinkmanship as a newbie here so I can assure you no offence was meant.
I was actually setting Ramarius straight; it was he who reiterated that it did say "secret" when it doesn't.
I think the passage in Philippians is about contentment, not quite the same as happiness.
In that respect, I aspire to a much earlier and more neglected philosophy, that of Agur son of Jakeh: quote:
Two things I ask of you;
do not deny them to me before I die:
Remove far from me falsehood and lying;
give me neither poverty nor riches;
feed me with the food that I need,
or I shall be full, and deny you,
and say, ‘Who is the Lord?’
or I shall be poor, and steal,
and profane the name of my God.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Alyosha
Shipmate
# 18395
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Posted
Also, if Christ came to bring us life in all its fullness I'm assuming he means glorious highs (mountain top experiences) and bleak, depressing lows (valley experiences) the same as both he and St Paul experienced?
St Paul may have had lows but he also saw miracles and took pleasure in the success of his life's work.
So why are there so few mountain top experiences in the Christian life? And if it is a choice - if it's a choice that every Christian makes - to experience highs and lows or to settle for a humdrum mediocrity, then when and where is that choice made?
Is it 'user error' if a Christian doesn't experience life in all its fullness? Are the mountain tops and miracles just a matter of self-discipline? I've heard sermons which say that they are, that you work for them. But there must be more to it than that isn't there?
Posts: 162 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2015
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Alyosha
Shipmate
# 18395
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
Apologies Eutychus, I don't have the luxury of brinkmanship as a newbie here so I can assure you no offence was meant.
I was actually setting Ramarius straight; it was he who reiterated that it did say "secret" when it doesn't.
I think the passage in Philippians is about contentment, not quite the same as happiness.
In that respect, I aspire to a much earlier and more neglected philosophy, that of Agur son of Jakeh: quote:
Two things I ask of you;
do not deny them to me before I die:
Remove far from me falsehood and lying;
give me neither poverty nor riches;
feed me with the food that I need,
or I shall be full, and deny you,
and say, ‘Who is the Lord?’
or I shall be poor, and steal,
and profane the name of my God.
I bet Agur was middle-class.
Posts: 162 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2015
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
Also, if Christ came to bring us life in all its fullness I'm assuming he means glorious highs (mountain top experiences) and bleak, depressing lows (valley experiences) the same as both he and St Paul experienced?
St Paul may have had lows but he also saw miracles and took pleasure in the success of his life's work.
So why are there so few mountain top experiences in the Christian life? And if it is a choice - if it's a choice that every Christian makes - to experience highs and lows or to settle for a humdrum mediocrity, then when and where is that choice made?
Is it 'user error' if a Christian doesn't experience life in all its fullness? Are the mountain tops and miracles just a matter of self-discipline? I've heard sermons which say that they are, that you work for them. But there must be more to it than that isn't there?
The choice we make as Christians isn't whether we settle for mediocrity or experience highs and lows, as we don't control God, we live by grace. We may experience spiritual highs and lows along the way, God may occasionally bless us with ecstatic moments or help us to know spiritual thirst in desert periods, but we don't choose them, we live within them. This is life in its fullness.
What we choose is to continue to invite the living Christ into our lives, and we do our best to remain focussed on God through Christ and with the help of the Holy Spirit.
We can't work toward mountain top experiences or miracles imv. We can pray for them, but then forget them as it's not for what we receive that we work and serve, it's for all we can give in service to God by doing our best to follow Christ's example.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551
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Posted
@Belle Ringer. Spot on. The key issue Malsow misses is that none of what he includes is possible without collaboration and co-operation. The more complex societies become, and the more involved the associated interactions, the greater the need for collaboration becomes.
[ 05. May 2015, 21:22: Message edited by: Ramarius ]
Posts: 950 | From: Virtually anywhere | Registered: Jul 2011
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
I bet Agur was middle-class.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) touché!
quote:
So why are there so few mountain top experiences in the Christian life? And if it is a choice - if it's a choice that every Christian makes - to experience highs and lows or to settle for a humdrum mediocrity, then when and where is that choice made?
Is it 'user error' if a Christian doesn't experience life in all its fullness? Are the mountain tops and miracles just a matter of self-discipline? I've heard sermons which say that they are, that you work for them. But there must be more to it than that isn't there?
I think that constant mountain-top experiences would be exhausting. Besides, they are only such because they stand out from the normal. And trying to seek them out is like an addiction - diminishing returns for increased effort.
Some church movements and conferences virtually guarantee a mountain-top experience every time. In my view this is deceptive if not deceitful. Life's just not like that. Character, which is surely related to contentment, is built not through the highs but through the long slog.
Finally, there are issues of personality. People who make much of their highs are likely to have more undulating personalities; you just don't hear from them at all when they are in their depressed mode.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
It's mostly a completely flat desert, to the best of my experience. The company is the best bit, really; the landscape itself doesn't appear to be mountainous. Or particularly rich in oases. I think there might have been some mountains and streams at the beginning, but not for many leagues. I can't even see them behind me now. No sign of more on the horizon either.
[ 06. May 2015, 06:48: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
'Maslow's hierarchy of needs' implies that the search for happiness or meaning could be a luxury of the rich. When you are simply trying to survive, happiness is not such a priority.
Maslow was wrong.
When I first was introduced to his pyramid, I worked for the military so I asked the obvious question - "where does dying for your country fit into the pyramid?" The answer, "It doesn't."
Neither does dying for your faith.
They fit in the top two tiers.
quote:
Or continuing on a project all night in spite of needing sleep and food just because you are so engrossed, or you want the self-actualization of completing the project more than you want to satisfy the body's physical needs.
Temporarily. You will not continue on the project until you die of starvation. You may fall asleep involuntarily.
Maslow's hierarchy is not "plain wrong". It describes human behaviour, in general, very well. The problem is that you've been taught it badly.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Alyosha
Shipmate
# 18395
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
It's mostly a completely flat desert, to the best of my experience. The company is the best bit, really; the landscape itself doesn't appear to be mountainous. Or particularly rich in oases. I think there might have been some mountains and streams at the beginning, but not for many leagues. I can't even see them behind me now. No sign of more on the horizon either.
I'm with you on that Karl - a desert with the kind of sand which makes the walking harder. The prospect of almost inevitable chasms in the strata of the landscape further on. A few mirages here and there. A stone to suck on in place of water.
'With the voices singing in our ears, saying
That this was all folly.'
Posts: 162 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2015
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Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
. On inspection the Greek word is memyēmai.
Indeed - perfect participle
quote:
First off, memyēmai is a hapax legomen i.e. occurs only here in the NT. Which means that it's a dodgy foundation for definitive answers in the first place. Its plain meaning is not 'secret'; that is an interpretation by translators.
According to Strong's the root word is mueó, I initiate, instruct; pass: I am disciplined, learn (a lesson). The KJV translates Phil 4:12 as "I am instructed...".
Paul seems to be borrowing from the esoteric sense of "initiation" to say "my 'initation' [unlike those of pagan religions] has been acquired through experience".
I think the reason various versions - including the American Standard Version, New Revised Standard Version and the Holman Christian Standard Version - also refer to "a secret" is that this is implied from a verb which was used (as you say) of initiation. More precisely, it was initiation into sacred mysteries (musterion). Young's literal translation goes for "I have been initiated."
The "secret," "hidden knowledge," "mystery" into which Paul was initiated was that of contentment in following Christ wherever that took him. As I said above, this comes by experience (rather than some esoteric impartation).
I wouldn't worry too much about the hapax lagomen - it's not an unusual verb, and the associated word family pops up regularly enough in the New Testament.
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I honestly can't understand how either of the posted criticisms of Maslow's pyramid have anything to do with Maslow's pyramid.
Especially the second. Suppose that meeting ones needs does need assistance from others to be achievable. So?
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
….Paul could have learned a lesson of some kind but either way he wasn't sharing what his method was.
You got me wondering Alyosha…
A valuable exercise can be to ask someone to think about what could be called their "life message." As they think about their life to date, what could someone discover about living well or successfully, and who would be most arrested by that message and find it valuable.
A recurring message in Philippians is the contrast between what Paul "loses" by following Christ, and what he gains in return. He talks about his own life struggle and suffering, and encourages the Philippians that this is something that they share with him (1:29). What has he learned in his life following Jesus that would help them in theirs? Well for one, everything he could have claimed to have gained by heritage or personal endeavour he considers loss compared to gaining Christ (3:7-10). In finding Christ, he has found everything he needs (4:13). Someone who thinks they have everything they need is more likely to be content than someone who doesn't - I notice he says he knows what it is to be content when in abundance (when the temptation may be to seek even more) as well as in want.
Contentment isn't then down to what Paul has or doesn't have, the situation in which he is in, or even how well he deals with his ongoing struggles, but ultimately in the Jesus who he knows and what comes with that relationship.
Rather than passing on a method, perhaps Paul's passing on a story - a life message - which his friends can read and draw from.
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Posts: 950 | From: Virtually anywhere | Registered: Jul 2011
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Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I honestly can't understand how either of the posted criticisms of Maslow's pyramid have anything to do with Maslow's pyramid.
Especially the second. Suppose that meeting ones needs does need assistance from others to be achievable. So?
I think the issue isn't that the elements of the pyramid aren't important to people (they are) but the idea that they form an ordered hierarchy. Here's a short article that explores the question.
What do you think?
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Posts: 950 | From: Virtually anywhere | Registered: Jul 2011
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I think the article is partly right and partly confuses two separate issues: the need for a sense of belonging is not the same as the observation that meeting basic needs requires the assistance of others.
The first point is about the... 'emotional' benefits is the best term I can think of right now. The second point is a practical one.
[ 06. May 2015, 15:59: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Meike:
Beautifully said, Raptor Eye. Deep down, there can still be joy, even if you’re profoundly unhappy.
Can someone explain the difference between joy and happiness please? I don't see how one can be both joyful and unhappy at the same time.
The joy that I am talking about is inner contentment and more than that, it's a deep pleasure and peace with life that lasts through periods of unhappiness.
I have described my understanding of happiness in the previous post.
Ah, the joys of the English language.
No, you cannot simultaneously experience joy and unhappiness. Joy is generally considered more than happy, but it isn't other than happy.
Yes, one can have a baseline contentment with life which weathers moments of sorrow.
Mum, just died, I need to euthanise the family pet and my partner left me yesterday, but I am still joyful". Um, no.
You might still have an inner core of peace, but joy? That is redefining the word.
And speaking of contentment, it is not a neutral feeling. Not a line above which is happy and below which is sad. It is a net positive and therefore happy. We generally see it as as a deeper, less volatile happy, but it is happy no less for that.
ISTM, the mangled communication is a desire of the religious/spiritual to put a greater emphasis on their relationship with the spiritual.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
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