Thread: The last of the last days? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.
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Posted by Alyosha (# 18395) on
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It is a kind of Christian orthodoxy that we are living in the last of the last days. I think it may even be in the Nicene creed, isn't it?
But what hope does this position give the children? No-one knows the day or hour etc?
According to Jewish tradition, we have until Hebrew year 6000 (2239 AD) before the deadline for the supposed Jewish Messiah. Does that give us 114 years before we need to worry? (not that any of us should worry, after all, counting our blessings and not worrying is the entire gospel isn't it?).
So there is hope for the children after all and we can carry on looking after this earth without having to run away to Petra in Jordan.
And we can focus on our personal eschatologies and prepare Google inactive account manager to send messages to loved ones and set up a delayed Amazon ebook release of our scandalous memoirs.
See, there are always happy things in this world. Hallelujah?
[ 26. May 2015, 06:58: Message edited by: Alyosha ]
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on
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quote:
It is a kind of Christian orthodoxy that we are living in the last of the last days. I think it may even be in the Nicene creed, isn't it?
If I recall correctly, the closest the Nicence creed comes to that is saying that Jesus Christ will come again to judge the living and the dead. But no time-frame is given.
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
It is a kind of Christian orthodoxy that we are living in the last of the last days.
[citation needed]
We are those on whom the ends of the ages are come (1 Cor 10:11) - and have been since New Testament times. Jesus' words at the beginning of Acts seem clearly to rule out any reliance on dates, Hebrew or otherwise, as guidelines as to the time of his return. All we know, rather self-evidently, is that our salvation is nearer now than it was when we first believed (Rom 13:11).
What is your basis for saying we are living in the "last of the last days"?
[ 26. May 2015, 07:24: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on
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I think it's safe to say that the Church has always believed we're living in the "last days", but none of the Creeds affirm that (much less the "last of the last days"). Of course, we also affirm that a day is like a thousand years etc ... so, how much longer the last days will last is an unanswered question.
I think the only conclusion we cna draw is that we're to live as though Christ will come tomorrow and live as though it'll be another thousand years. So, we can't neglect the oil supply for our lamps because "He's not coming yet, there will be time to get more oil". Likewise, we can't neglect the stewardship of the world because "He'll be back very soon so it doesn't matter"
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
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Exactly right, Alan. And good Scottish Reformed theology!
There is a story that the great Scottish divine Robert Murray M'Cheyne was once speaking to the elders of his church in Dundee before an evening service. He asked each of them in turn, "Do you believe that Christ will return tonight?" Each one replied, "No". Then he gave out his text for the service: "Be ready, for you know not the hour at which the Lord will come". However, he was an activist who certainly did not sitting around waiting for Christ to come!
[ 26. May 2015, 07:40: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posted by Chief of sinners (# 8794) on
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I grew up in a church where we believed that we were living in the last of the last days, and you are right to worry about your children. I remember feeling that university, even Bible college, would be a waste of time because the Lord was likely to come before I completed the course, meaning I would miss my opprotuity to work for Him.
Posted by Alyosha (# 18395) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
It is a kind of Christian orthodoxy that we are living in the last of the last days.
[citation needed]
We are those on whom the ends of the ages are come (1 Cor 10:11) - and have been since New Testament times. Jesus' words at the beginning of Acts seem clearly to rule out any reliance on dates, Hebrew or otherwise, as guidelines as to the time of his return. All we know, rather self-evidently, is that our salvation is nearer now than it was when we first believed (Rom 13:11).
What is your basis for saying we are living in the "last of the last days"?
Okay Eutychus, no-one is saying we are in the last of the last days. Not commentators on Christian radio stations like UCB and Premier, not the rising Christian media star which is Christian Today, not the millions of eclectic Christian blogs, not any churches anywhere I am sure. I must, surely have imagined it.
Maybe I'm mad. Some mornings I think I may be, like a raven singing among beautiful songbirds. Before anyone takes offence (as freedom seems to be at a premium), I am complimenting you as being like a songbird in the morning and being self-deprecating by calling myself a crow.
I am not saying we are in the last of the last days. I am saying that it is an orthodox position among many Christians now. And good morning to you sir.
[ 26. May 2015, 07:53: Message edited by: Alyosha ]
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on
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Alyosha wrote:
quote:
Okay Eutychus, no-one is saying we are in the last of the last days. Not commentators on Christian radio stations like UCB and Premier, not the rising Christian media star which is Christian Today, not the millions of eclectic Christian blogs, not any churches anywhere I am sure. I must, surely have imagined it.
Well, you didn't just say that there are some Christians who think that(to which you would likely get little argument). You said that "it is a kind of Christian orthodoxy".
Posted by Alyosha (# 18395) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Alyosha wrote:
quote:
Okay Eutychus, no-one is saying we are in the last of the last days. Not commentators on Christian radio stations like UCB and Premier, not the rising Christian media star which is Christian Today, not the millions of eclectic Christian blogs, not any churches anywhere I am sure. I must, surely have imagined it.
Well, you didn't just say that there are some Christians who think that(to which you would likely get little argument). You said that "it is a kind of Christian orthodoxy".
Well, I move in strange and esoteric circles, so I could be out of touch, admittedly.
I'm not pressing the slightly fantastical button which sets out an eerie trumpet blast that the world is about to end and we're all doomed. I'm simply saying that many people have pressed that button. Do you think it is a red button? If you or I felt convicted to press that button do you feel that the Christian community would believe us?
[ 26. May 2015, 08:02: Message edited by: Alyosha ]
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
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[cross post]
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
Okay Eutychus, no-one is saying we are in the last of the last days.
I never said that. I challenged your claim that it's orthodoxy. Even if you think it's received wisdom, it's not orthodoxy. The confusion between "trending" and "orthodox" amongst many evangelicals is astounding (and a source of personal despair to me), as is the disconnect between what many of them say they believe about faithfulness to Scripture and what they actually say. quote:
Not commentators on Christian radio stations like UCB and Premier, not the rising Christian media star which is Christian Today, not the millions of eclectic Christian blogs, not any churches anywhere I am sure. I must, surely have imagined it.
Well, I think your working definition of "Christian" is "evangelical Christian" and not all of those either. They may be the noisiest constituency, but they are by no means representative.
And besides, I'm not even sure about your implied claims above. The editor of Christian Today is a personal acquaintance. I've written a couple of articles for the site. Its basis of faith says nothing about Christ's imminent return, and I'm not aware of any editorial line on that subject.
FWIW I grew up in a church in which we were regularly assured Christ might well return before the meeting (usually the Gospel meeting...) was over, and I clearly recall hearing it confidently asserted from the pulpit, on the basis of some very poor adding up and the creation of the state of Israel, that he would definitely be back by 1982.
[ 26. May 2015, 08:15: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
If you or I felt convicted to press that button do you feel that the Christian community would believe us?
I sincerely hope not, because I cannot see a shred of Scriptural justification for doing so. The Bible appears to me to be incontrovertibly clear that we.don't.know. The history of movements that did feel "convicted" to "press that button" is informative (one of many examples; another one).
Posted by Alyosha (# 18395) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
[cross post]
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
Okay Eutychus, no-one is saying we are in the last of the last days.
I never said that. I challenged your claim that it's orthodoxy. Even if you think it's received wisdom, it's not orthodoxy. The confusion between "trending" and "orthodox" amongst many evangelicals is astounding (and a source of personal despair to me), as is the disconnect between what many of them say they believe about faithfulness to Scripture and what they actually say. quote:
Not commentators on Christian radio stations like UCB and Premier, not the rising Christian media star which is Christian Today, not the millions of eclectic Christian blogs, not any churches anywhere I am sure. I must, surely have imagined it.
Well, I think your working definition of "Christian" is "evangelical Christian" and not all of those either. They may be the noisiest constituency, but they are by no means representative.
And besides, I'm not even sure about your implied claims above. The editor of Christian Today is a personal acquaintance. I've written a couple of articles for the site. Its basis of faith says nothing about Christ's imminent return, and I'm not aware of any editorial line on that subject.
FWIW I grew up in a church in which we were regularly assured Christ might well return before the meeting (usually the Gospel meeting...) was over, and I clearly recall hearing it confidently asserted from the pulpit, on the basis of some very poor adding up and the creation of the state of Israel, that he would definitely be back by 1982.
Who? Where? What? When? You have written for Christian Today? That practically makes you the establishment?
I am not interested in brinkmanship. What I am interested in is your position on the end of the world, which you have ducked.
Do you think that Islam is the fashionable enemy in the same way that Russia used to be during the cold war (Hal Lindsey etc)? Do you think that the idea that Islam is instrumental in the end of the world will pass in the same way as The Late Great Planet Earth targeted Russia?
Qualify your statements. Practice what you preach.
[ 26. May 2015, 08:35: Message edited by: Alyosha ]
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
That practically makes you the establishment?
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Not an accusation I have to deal with every day, I can assure you! quote:
I am not interested in brinkmanship.
Neither am I. I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to put one over you, I was disputing the reliability of your claims and explaining why I felt qualified to dispute them. The standard of proof in Purgatory is usually held to be more than saying "so and so says such and such" without any support whatsoever. Give us some evidence of this "orthodoxy", not just hand-waving! quote:
What I am interested in is your position on the end of the world, which you have ducked.
I'm out of time for now, but I'm pretty much with Alan Cresswell I think.
Posted by Alyosha (# 18395) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
That practically makes you the establishment?
Not an accusation I have to deal with every day, I can assure you! quote:
I am not interested in brinkmanship.
Neither am I. I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to put one over you, I was disputing the reliability of your claims and explaining why I felt qualified to dispute them. The standard of proof in Purgatory is usually held to be more than saying "so and so says such and such" without any support whatsoever. Give us some evidence of this "orthodoxy", not just hand-waving! quote:
What I am interested in is your position on the end of the world, which you have ducked.
I'm out of time for now, but I'm pretty much with Alan Cresswell I think.
I wrote harshly. Please accept my apology. I'm new here and I don't entirely know the rules. Sorry. I hold no malice towards anyone here.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I grew up in a church in which we were regularly assured Christ might well return before the meeting (usually the Gospel meeting...) was over, and I clearly recall hearing it confidently asserted from the pulpit, on the basis of some very poor adding up and the creation of the state of Israel, that he would definitely be back by 1982.
Don't forget that Mikhail Gorbachev - or President Sadat (depending on which book you read) - was definitely the Antichrist.
The "locusts" of Revelation were NT-era imagining of American attack helicopters. The Mark of the Beast were tattoed barcodes.
And don't even begin to think of the Common Market or EEC (as it was in those days)as the seven-headed "whore of Babylon". Strange that no-one says that anymore, now that it's grown!
Whether, however, there will be some cataclysmic final conflict in the Iraq area does still seem possible. And (showing my age here!) Larry Norman's plangent song was rather good an probably influenced people to view of the Rapture more than anything else.
More seriously: eschatological hubris comes to the fore in times of uncertainty and anxiety. I think it did pre-1939 (wasn't there a book then called "The Mark of the Beast"?), it flourished in Cold War America and, possibly, rapidly-industrialising 1840s Britain; it certainly was strong just pre-1000AD and, I think, during the Black Death ... and so on.
[ 26. May 2015, 08:56: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on
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Another Cresswellian here. His summary is, I think, not just orthodox Reformed theology, but pretty consistent with Catholic Holy Tradition and the generally accepted understanding of Orthodox Christians.
Speculating on the chronological imminence of Last Days has a really bad history in Christian denominations and sects. It's also got a 100% failure rate so far as prediction is concerned.
Why do people go for this kind of speculation, despite the clear tradition that "it's not for us to know"? That's an interesting question.
Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Chief of sinners:
I grew up in a church where we believed that we were living in the last of the last days, and you are right to worry about your children. I remember feeling that university, even Bible college, would be a waste of time because the Lord was likely to come before I completed the course, meaning I would miss my opprotuity to work for Him.
My wife claims that she used to worry that the Lord would return before she could marry me.
Can you blame her?
On a more serious note, I have pointed out before on threads of this nature that the late F.F. Bruce suggested that historians in ten thousand years time might regard the last two thousand years as the period of the church's infancy.
Posted by Alyosha (# 18395) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I grew up in a church in which we were regularly assured Christ might well return before the meeting (usually the Gospel meeting...) was over, and I clearly recall hearing it confidently asserted from the pulpit, on the basis of some very poor adding up and the creation of the state of Israel, that he would definitely be back by 1982.
Don't forget that Mikhail Gorbachev - or President Sadat (depending on which book you read) - was definitely the Antichrist.
The "locusts" of Revelation were NT-era imagining of American attack helicopters. The Mark of the Beast were tattoed barcodes.
And don't even begin to think of the Common Market or EEC (as it was in those days)as the seven-headed "whore of Babylon". Strange that no-one says that anymore, now that it's grown!
Whether, however, there will be some cataclysmic final conflict in the Iraq area does still seem possible. And (showing my age here!) Larry Norman's plangent song was rather good an probably influenced people to view of the Rapture more than anything else.
More seriously: eschatological hubris comes to the fore in times of uncertainty and anxiety. I think it did pre-1939 (wasn't there a book then called "The Mark of the Beast"?), it flourished in Cold War America and, possibly, rapidly-industrialising 1840s Britain; it certainly was strong just pre-1000AD and, I think, during the Black Death ... and so on.
Please let me assure you that many people still see the EU as the 10 state confederacy. Interestingly the revived European empire idea could only come from the Christian imagination - it is a very clever and bold idea in many ways. There is even speculation that Britain and a number of other countries will leave the EU in the future, reducing it to the required 10 figure. A lot of this speculation is from the US, but I think it is worthy of note.
The thing which is never ever mentioned in eschatology is the spread of the gospel to all tribes. The last I heard there were 6000 people groups who still needed missionaries, many of them in Islamic countries. For Christ's prayer to be answered then this needs to happen (along with the oft mentioned re-building of the temple in Jerusalem).
There also needs to be a level of unity in the Christian community which I'm sure you have noticed is not present.
Islam is often noted as the major player in end-time ebooks. I wonder if this can lead to a kind of prejudice against Muslims which is not necessarily deserved. This combines with the fact that many Muslims do oppress Christians in other countries. This does not happen in the UK and the Muslims say that they are the oppressed minority. But you know all this.
The thing that seems to be ignored in the antagonism towards Muslims in this country (even from Christians) is that our battle is not against flesh and blood. This is not an appropriate scripture to mention in times of war.
[ 26. May 2015, 09:29: Message edited by: Alyosha ]
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on
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Apart from mere academic speculation, is being concerned about the timing of the Second Coming ever constructive?
In my experience, no. And I lived through the Cold War in the middle of a tight triangle bounded by three nuclear weapon targets. Everyone whoever tried to guess the identity of the four horsemen, the whore of Babylon, the beast, the antichrist - they were all wrong, and some of them dangerously so.
Be like Luther. Plant a tree.
Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on
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I do think there is a solid case for these being the “last days”. AIUI, the last days are those in which God pours out His Spirit on all flesh, i.e. the period since Pentecost.
However, on that definition, we’ve been in the last days for the best part of 2000 years. What seems more problematic to me is saying that this is the end of the last. Certainly our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. But that’s just the way time works.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
The thing which is never ever mentioned in eschatology is the spread of the gospel to all tribes. The last I heard there were 6000 people groups who still needed missionaries, many of them in Islamic countries.
Not quite true. I was a member of a missionary society back in the 80s, and at that time there was a strong rhetoric - which I think came from the "Restoration" movement - that we needed to "spread the Gospel, reach the unreached tribes, and bring back the King" (or "let the King return"). Indeed, I'm pretty sure I preached on it myself once or twice.
Interestingly, another theme which sometimes came out in those days was that there would be a great worldwide revival ("outpouring") before Jesus returned. I think Wimber was quite keen in this, but I first heard it in (I think) the very late 70s from Jean Darnall. It was interesting as it ran directly against the Hal Lindsey-style Premillennial approach which said that the world must inevitably get worse and less Christian for Christ to be able to come.
Gamaliel - if you're reading this - did you come across any of this in the circles you moved in? You are more familiar with them than I am.
[ 26. May 2015, 10:13: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
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Yes I did - very much so ...
In some ways what happened was that the 'restorationists' in the UK reacted against the kind of pre-millenial approach taken by most Brethren and Pentecostals at that time - and most of the leaders tended to come from Brethren and Pentecostal backgrounds - although there was a strong Baptist input as well which brought in some more 'reformed' (small r) emphases ...
I fully accept Kaplan's point that not all the Brethren went in for the idea of Christ's imminent return - and his reminder about F F Bruce here is pertinent ...
But as far as popular evangelicalism went, it was very much Hal Lindsay-esque in tone and the 'restorationists' reacted against all that. Indeed, it was one of the reasons why I felt myself drawn to it because I was aghast at some of the more ridiculous eschatological speculations I heard at the Brethren Assembly my brother attended for a time ... complete with quotes from that most inspired of sources, The Reader's Digest ...
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
So, in essence, what the 'restorationists' did was to over-react in the opposite direction and so come up with some kind of over-realised eschatology that was just as bad in its own way as the one they were reacting against.
I heard a number of prominent leaders confidently predict the end of the world and - to my horror - connect it in some way to the culmination of their own work ... which struck me as extreme hubris on their part.
I'm with Alan Cresswell and also Barnabas62.
Andrew Walker was mentioned here recently. At the 'On Revival' conference I attended in 2002, one of the speakers was a Presbyterian guy from the US - strongly Reformed - 'Orthodox Presbyterian' I think ... (that's not Eastern Orthodox of course ...)
He made a few comments on eschatological issues and there were a few protests 'from the floor' - the conference had attracted a number of revivalists and people from some of the more fundie Bible colleges who were clearly expecting something rather more ra-ra-rah.
I well remember Andrew Walker joining him to 'best' these people with some well-chosen quotes and references - and doing so in a very respectful and measured way too - which was impressive.
It struck me how Walker as an Orthodox Christian and this speaker as a Reformed one were on exactly the same page when it came to eschatology.
As to Alyosha's point about febrile eschatological speculations from the US deserving some kind of hearing - balderdash. It doesn't deserve any such hearing. It should be summarily dismissed because as sure as eggs are eggs it'll be as nonsensical as any of the other eschatological speculations that have drifted our way across the Atlantic over the last century or so.
Piffle. Piffle and poppycock.
I wish some of these people had listened to the likes of F F Bruce - and indeed, the broad thrust of the 'received' tradition of both the Catholic and Reformed churches - and saved themselves and their hearers a lot of hassle.
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
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Lest anyone think I'm starting a Pond War - far from it - the source of so many of the more whacky eschatological speculations was on this side of the Atlantic.
There were all manner of eschatological concerns thrown up by the Napoleonic Wars and the social unrest of the 1830s that fed into the end-times speculations surrounding the Irvingites and others. There were those famous conferences where they pored over the scriptures trying to discern the pattern for the 'end-times' ...
The Brethren also emerged against this milieu.
Then there was the rise of 'Adventism' in the US from the 1840s onwards ... which pretty much took the ball punted over from this side of the Atlantic and kicked it further into speculative territory.
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
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Sorry to triple-post, but something that is often overlooked is the extent to which 'prophecies' and 'tongues-and-interpretations' within early Pentecostalism dealt with predictions of the imminent end of the world.
If you read any of the primary sources and accounts, this comes out very clearly indeed.
The first generation of Pentecostals were convinced they were the last generation before the return of Christ.
This tendency runs through Pentecostalism and neo-Pentecostalism to this day - although it's been modified and toned down to a large extent.
It depends where you are, though.
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I think it's safe to say that the Church has always believed we're living in the "last days", but none of the Creeds affirm that (much less the "last of the last days"). Of course, we also affirm that a day is like a thousand years etc ... so, how much longer the last days will last is an unanswered question.
I think the only conclusion we cna draw is that we're to live as though Christ will come tomorrow and live as though it'll be another thousand years. So, we can't neglect the oil supply for our lamps because "He's not coming yet, there will be time to get more oil". Likewise, we can't neglect the stewardship of the world because "He'll be back very soon so it doesn't matter"
Indeed, if Jesus IS coming back tomorrow, all the more reason to go do something significant. (My favorite bumper sticker: Jesus is coming: look busy). If Jesus were to return tomorrow, I don't think he'd be impressed if we run out of our darkened basements full of books and charts, clutching our calendar with the correct date circled in red. I think he will probably come looking for his followers in the homeless shelters and the immigration detention centers and the food bank. The latest "prophesy seminar" will be the last place he'd expect to find us.
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
The thing which is never ever mentioned in eschatology is the spread of the gospel to all tribes.
Never? You need to get out more.
To take just one example and since I've already mentioned him, Roger Forster's take is that each generation sort of follows on directly from the end of the NT and gets a chance to preach the gospel to all peoples, and then the end will come. quote:
Islam is often noted as the major player in end-time ebooks.
In the early 1980s my wife-to-be attended a presentation by an Open Doors worker at which he explained how the Gospel had sort of spiralled out from the Middle East across the world, followed by communism from the USSR, and that communism would then become a spent force and be replaced by Islam spiralling out in similar manner from the Middle East.
This has long struck us as amazingly prescient. It's also hard to forget how Open Doors began seven years of prayer for the Soviet Union in 1982 - with the fall of the Berlin Wall precisely seven years later (their ten years of prayer for the Muslim world does not, however, seem to have had the same effect...).
But as Kaplan Corday points out, these could well just be moves in a much longer game. Anyone who lived through the Cold War and accompanying eschatalogical excitement should be wise enough to be wary of similar exaggerated claims about the Muslim world.
Posted by Steve Langton (# 17601) on
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One of the problems in this topic is that for many years there was this widespread preaching of the 'Left Behind' style idea of an 'any minute now' Second Coming to be followed by the Tribulation and Jesus' in effect 'Third Coming' to start off the Millennium.
Many Christians in my experience were not happy with this, but didn't really know how to respond. They tended therefore to settle for a kind of 'minimum we can all agree on approach' which tended to include the idea of a very imminent Second Coming, just without all the detail of the 'Left Behind' approach. A kind of agnosticism while trying to be positive. I think it was this attitude that Alyosha has picked on as being a 'kind of orthodoxy' in recent years.
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Chief of sinners:
I grew up in a church where we believed that we were living in the last of the last days, and you are right to worry about your children. I remember feeling that university, even Bible college, would be a waste of time because the Lord was likely to come before I completed the course, meaning I would miss my opprotuity to work for Him.
My wife claims that she used to worry that the Lord would return before she could marry me.
Can you blame her?
For me, it was the prophecies of Mostradamus, as catalogued in this book. Specifically the one that went...
"In the year 1999 and seven months/from the sky will come the great king of terror."
I seriously worried that I wouldn't have enough time to accomplsh my career goals, as I would have been only 30 when the End came.
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on
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Baptist Tainfan wrote:
quote:
The "locusts" of Revelation were NT-era imagining of American attack helicopters.
And for all you skeptics...
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
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There should be a trigger warning before that post.
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on
:
Also from Trainfan...
quote:
And don't even begin to think of the Common Market or EEC (as it was in those days)as the seven-headed "whore of Babylon". Strange that no-one says that anymore, now that it's grown!
Minor correction, but from my reading, the Common Market was NOT usually the Whore Of Babylon in the pre-mil eschatologies.
Depending on how openly anti-Catholic the preacher was, the WOB was either Roman Catholicism, or(as in the Spire comic linked above), occultic religion generally.
I'm not exactly sure which character from Revelation was thought to symbolize the EU, except that the Beast was the head of it.
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
For me, it was the prophecies of Mostradamus, as catalogued in this book. Specifically the one that went...
"In the year 1999 and seven months/from the sky will come the great king of terror."
hmm... Probably about the time that George W Bush entered the race for the presidency... Maybe I'm a dispensationalist after all.
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
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Perhaps it escaped your notice over the pond that the EEC was founded by the treaty of Rome... and the flag is a dead giveaway... ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Baptist Trainfan wrote:
quote:
The "locusts" of Revelation were NT-era imagining of American attack helicopters.
And for all you skeptics...
That was the very "comic" I was thinking of ... together with Hal Lindsey. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on
:
Thanks for the link, Eutychus. I especially liked this juxtaposition of chapter-headings from the first one...
quote:
The Catholic Church Will Use Force!
Followed by...
quote:
We Agree With the Reformers
Yes, because Luther, Calvin, and Henry VIII only ever employed peaceful persuasion to advance their cause.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
In the early 1980s my wife-to-be attended a presentation by an Open Doors worker at which he explained how the Gospel had sort of spiralled out from the Middle East across the world, followed by communism from the USSR, and that communism would then become a spent force and be replaced by Islam spiralling out in similar manner from the Middle East.
This has long struck us as amazingly prescient.
Yes. I also remember giggling faintly (and absolutely wrongly, in retrospect) when I heard Brother Andrew himself saying that the Hutu and Tutsi in Rwanda would end up in deadly conflict. The names just sounded so outlandish - but he was dead right. And this would have been in around 1978 - more than 15 years before the genocide.
Open Doors certainly had their finger on the pulse ...
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Baptist Trainfan wrote:
quote:
The "locusts" of Revelation were NT-era imagining of American attack helicopters.
And for all you skeptics...
That was the very "comic" I was thinking of ... together with Hal Lindsey.
Yeah, that comic was based on a Hal Lindsey book.
And sorry about the lack of trigger warnings in that other post. Here's something a little more on the tasteful and restrained side.
Posted by Alyosha (# 18395) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Also from Trainfan...
quote:
And don't even begin to think of the Common Market or EEC (as it was in those days)as the seven-headed "whore of Babylon". Strange that no-one says that anymore, now that it's grown!
Minor correction, but from my reading, the Common Market was NOT usually the Whore Of Babylon in the pre-mil eschatologies.
Depending on how openly anti-Catholic the preacher was, the WOB was either Roman Catholicism, or(as in the Spire comic linked above), occultic religion generally.
I'm not exactly sure which character from Revelation was thought to symbolize the EU, except that the Beast was the head of it.
Yes, there is still a lot of anti-Catholic prejudice dressed up in end times speculation.
I suppose this has been the case historically, with accusations that a pope is the anti-Christ. But it is worrying to see it still going on.
Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I grew up in a church in which we were regularly assured Christ might well return before the meeting (usually the Gospel meeting...) was over, and I clearly recall hearing it confidently asserted from the pulpit, on the basis of some very poor adding up and the creation of the state of Israel, that he would definitely be back by 1982.
Don't forget that Mikhail Gorbachev - or President Sadat (depending on which book you read) - was definitely the Antichrist.
I remember reading a book which carefully explained all the reasons why Yuri Andropov was the Antichrist. The book was published in the middle of 1983. Andropov inconveniently popped his clogs in February 1984....
Just one reason (of many) why I have come to regard any and all speculation about "The Last Day" with complete contempt. Far too many genuine Christians have been misled and bamboozled by so-called "experts" and "prophets".
(If I am completely honest, this is an area of Christian faith where I think we need to read it as purely symbolical rather than literal. Given all we know now about the universe and its age and processes, I think it is scarcely credible to keep hold of a belief that it is all going to end suddenly one day. But I accept that this places me at the end of the spectrum in these matters.)
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
I remember reading a book which carefully explained all the reasons why Yuri Andropov was the Antichrist. The book was published in the middle of 1983. Andropov inconveniently popped his clogs in February 1984....
Gosh, who remembers Andropov today?
Ditto a book which cited Anwar Sadat ... which came out (or, at least, I read) after he had been killed.
[ 26. May 2015, 16:07: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on
:
Oscar wrote:
quote:
I remember reading a book which carefully explained all the reasons why Yuri Andropov was the Antichrist. The book was published in the middle of 1983. Andropov inconveniently popped his clogs in February 1984....
Bizarre, given that the Antichrist is otherwise supposed to be a highly charismatic figure who will charm the world. Whereas I don't think even the Communists themselves were swooning over the USSR's geriatric leadership in the early 80s.
One slightly more credible candidate I heard mentioned, on the Paul Lalonde TV show, was King Juan Carlos of Spain. I can't quite recall their reasoning, but it was the year of the Barcelona Olympics, so he was flying relatively high in public estimation, and there was allegedly some sort of occultic symbolism at the Olympic ceremonies.
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on
:
Trainfan wrote:
quote:
Ditto a book which cited Anwar Sadat ... which came out (or, at least, I read) after he had been killed.
Yeah, a guy who had to stuff ballots and kill opponents to win elections in his own country, and who was despised by multitudes of his co-religionists, is gonna convince the whole world to worship him.
That's the problem(well, apart from overall foundational lunacy) with pre-mil anti-christ auditions. They always pick whoever happens to be the most demonized figure of the moment in right-wing circles, which usually overestimates the "growth potential" for such people on the international stage.
Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Oscar wrote:
quote:
I remember reading a book which carefully explained all the reasons why Yuri Andropov was the Antichrist. The book was published in the middle of 1983. Andropov inconveniently popped his clogs in February 1984....
Bizarre, given that the Antichrist is otherwise supposed to be a highly charismatic figure who will charm the world. Whereas I don't think even the Communists themselves were swooning over the USSR's geriatric leadership in the early 80s.
I think that this paragraph from Wikipedia probably explains it all:
quote:
Two days after Leonid Brezhnev's death, on 12 November 1982, Andropov was elected General Secretary of the CPSU, the first former head of the KGB to become General Secretary. His appointment was received in the West with apprehension, in view of his roles in the KGB and in Hungary. At the time his personal background was a mystery in the West, with major newspapers printing detailed profiles of him that were inconsistent and in many cases fabricated.
It was the fact that he was head of the KGB, mixed in with all sorts of "facts" about his past life, which marked him out as the Antichrist. It was bizarre reading at the time, and just hilarious after his death. I wish I could remember more about who wrote the book.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
I used to attend some meetings where the chairperson anounted 'The date of our next meeting, if the Lord hasn't returned by then, is.....'
I always thought her to be naive, if not mad.
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
:
The correct wording, also covering your eventual death in the interim, is "unless the Lord should come or call".
[ 26. May 2015, 17:46: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posted by Alyosha (# 18395) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I used to attend some meetings where the chairperson anounted 'The date of our next meeting, if the Lord hasn't returned by then, is.....'
I always thought her to be naive, if not mad.
Well, you know someone could easily say 'The Lord will come at a time when you don't expect him' and judging by the consensus here he really would be like a thief in the night.
I don't want to draw irony on myself by talking about thieves (because I don't want to get robbed and life can get ironic with my words), but it is interesting that Christ likens himself to a thief. Only with this simile and with the unjust judge parable does he liken himself to negative characters.
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on
:
Isn't the point of that metaphor the certainty that you won't know when the thief will strike? Because, if you did, duh.
No amount of searching the scriptures for clues is ever going to help, unless you're going to cross the river into gnostic heresy and claim 'hidden knowledge'.
Posted by Jack o' the Green (# 11091) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
Only with this simile and with the unjust judge parable does he liken himself to negative characters.
I don't think Jesus is likening himself to the judge. The figure is presented as a contrast.
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jack o' the Green:
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
Only with this simile and with the unjust judge parable does he liken himself to negative characters.
I don't think Jesus is likening himself to the judge. The figure is presented as a contrast.
It's a bit of both. Jesus is definitely using the Judge as a metaphor for God, but by way of contrast, "if even an unjust judge would give justice, how much more so..."
Posted by Alyosha (# 18395) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jack o' the Green:
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
Only with this simile and with the unjust judge parable does he liken himself to negative characters.
I don't think Jesus is likening himself to the judge. The figure is presented as a contrast.
Hmmm, I think you may be correct. I thought he was being self-deprecating.
I do have another gem for folk to trample on though - after Christ had the encounter with the devil in the wilderness the only way the disciples would have been able to know what had happened would be if Christ sat them down and told them the story. Two characters, one wilderness, no-one else to record the incident.
Same with the trip to Hades in between death and resurrection?
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
I do have another gem for folk to trample on though - after Christ had the encounter with the devil in the wilderness the only way the disciples would have been able to know what had happened would be if Christ sat them down and told them the story. Two characters, one wilderness, no-one else to record the incident.
Same with the trip to Hades in between death and resurrection?
What has that got to do with the last of the last days?
[ 26. May 2015, 18:54: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posted by Jack o' the Green (# 11091) on
:
Possibly. There are a few accounts of events which may have come from Christ. The Jewish Trial may have got into the tradition that way. Personally, I've always preferred Mark's version of the Temptation. Definitely a case of 'less is more'. The narrative (I think) stimulates the imagination with the things it doesn't mention or leaves ambiguous.
Posted by Alyosha (# 18395) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
I do have another gem for folk to trample on though - after Christ had the encounter with the devil in the wilderness the only way the disciples would have been able to know what had happened would be if Christ sat them down and told them the story. Two characters, one wilderness, no-one else to record the incident.
Same with the trip to Hades in between death and resurrection?
What has that got to do with the last of the last days?
Not that much, but it is a really good meditation to imagine Christ sitting around a camp fire under the stars and telling the disciples stories about things such as this. Imagine how comforting and secure that would feel. No one listening to such stories would want to be anywhere else in the world.
Am I supposed to keep on topic? I am new here. Do people get disciplined for straying off topic? I was talking about Christ who will also come at the end of the world, if that's a link?
[ 26. May 2015, 19:18: Message edited by: Alyosha ]
Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on
:
Hi Alyosha,
Yes, we do try to stay on topic. I might suggest checking out the guidelines at the top of each board. They are useful for giving a feel of that particular board.
Gwai,
Purgatory Host
Posted by Alyosha (# 18395) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Hi Alyosha,
Yes, we do try to stay on topic. I might suggest checking out the guidelines at the top of each board. They are useful for giving a feel of that particular board.
Gwai,
Purgatory Host
Thanks. No problem.
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
:
I suppose it is relevant to some extent insofar as it tells us something about your approach to the scriptures ... if we couldn't deduce it already given your Pentecostal background ...
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
(If I am completely honest, this is an area of Christian faith where I think we need to read it as purely symbolical rather than literal. Given all we know now about the universe and its age and processes, I think it is scarcely credible to keep hold of a belief that it is all going to end suddenly one day. But I accept that this places me at the end of the spectrum in these matters.)
You parenthesized this, but I want to highlight it. I do not think it puts you anywhere but the general mainstream. Most sensible people think this; the Ship is likely not representative.
There are only end times for each of us, and responsibility to live for others, and as if we might be gone tomorrow.
(For the record, some of us thought Ronald Reagan was the antichrist, when we didn't think it was a televangelist or two.)
Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on
:
I discovered the identity of the anti-Christ many years ago, in an article which demonstrated by numerological analysis of the letters in his name that it was Basil Brush.
It makes perfect sense to me that a figure of such cosmic cunning would disguise himself as a children's animal character.
Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I used to attend some meetings where the chairperson anounted 'The date of our next meeting, if the Lord hasn't returned by then, is.....'
I always thought her to be naive, if not mad.
There used to be a custom in the Brethren, and possibly elsewhere, to follow announcements about future plans and events with "DV", which stood for Deo Volente.
Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on
:
Not just the Brethren: an elderly Presbyterian gentleman of our acquaintance (now deceased) used to use the phrase "See you tomorrow, D.V." as his farewell.
Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
I discovered the identity of the anti-Christ many years ago, in an article which demonstrated by numerological analysis of the letters in his name that it was Basil Brush.
It makes perfect sense to me that a figure of such cosmic cunning would disguise himself as a children's animal character.
That gives a whole new meaning to BB's catchphrase "Boom! Boom!"
Posted by Alyosha (# 18395) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I suppose it is relevant to some extent insofar as it tells us something about your approach to the scriptures ... if we couldn't deduce it already given your Pentecostal background ...
Morning. But not exactly (and, if I may say so, that it a little bit of a stereotype of Pentecostals because there are a large spectrum of approaches to scripture beyond a 'devil-heavy literalism').
I admit to taking the gospels literally and as a result I take Christ's end time prophecies literally. I see a lot of the OT as allegory and Daniel and Revelation as symbolism, a kind of mix of pattern and reality.
I take the thousand years of peace as allegory or pattern rather than literal.
I am, I admit, persuaded that the devil is real but this is partly based on experience rather than only scripture (I find it intellectually insulting to say that there is no God or devil).
I also am persuaded that a post-tribulation 'rapture' is possible although I tend to see the rapture and the last judgement as a climax to history and in story terms. I'm persuaded that the danger is in the Church not preparing for a possible tribulation to come.
A good story to read which has parallels I think with the rapture is the African-American folktale 'The People Could Fly'. In this story, the oppressed black workers escape their tormentors at a crucial point by simply flying away.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0C151dnDqg
video
[ 27. May 2015, 06:13: Message edited by: Alyosha ]
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
There used to be a custom in the Brethren, and possibly elsewhere, to follow announcements about future plans and events with "DV", which stood for Deo Volente.
Or, "if the Lord should tarry" ...
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
:
Fair enough, Alyosha.
I am quite conservative theologically too and do take the Gospel accounts literally - with some provisos for literary and theological intent.
I do believe in the Devil too - but not in the popular 'medieval' sense - more in a C S Lewis kind of way.
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
(For the record, some of us thought Ronald Reagan was the antichrist, when we didn't think it was a televangelist or two.)
I bumped into a web page a few years ago that went into a detailed explanation of why the writer thought the beast is the USA. The flip of what I'm used to seeing detailed explanation why it's EU.
Quite well done. USA is the Roman Empire reborn, Roman Eagle symbol, World empire ambitions incorporating many different peoples under one government, wish I could find the page but I've never seen it again in spite of looking.
Not that I think anyone knows. Seems to me a lot of future-telling prophecy (what little there is) is understood after the fact rather than giving clear specifics ahead of time.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
I discovered the identity of the anti-Christ many years ago, in an article which demonstrated by numerological analysis of the letters in his name that it was Basil Brush.
George Bush, more like.
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
:
In 45 years I have gone from cultic fundamentalist obsessed with 'prophecy' to ... raving postmodern liberal. Therefore the last days were fulfilled in Jesus' generation. The Book of Revelation is therefore contemporary apocalyptic literature from the time of Nero. I'm still a closet fundie, scratch me and I bleed it, but I don't believe it, I don't have to. I believe in the mystery pervading the divine man (does that make Him the human God?) Jesus, the last prophet and his apostles. I believe that all of the prophets from the mythic Moses were inspired by the Holy Spirit, i.e. that He was with them where they were, which doesn't mean that anything they did, like the Law of Moses, was validated by that.
Under the skin I accept the possibility of duality and more in the prophecies that were ALL fulfilled in Christ, according to Him. Which are easy for the modern mind NOT to see.
As a species, we're halfway. Probably a bit over the hill. So we've got a hundred thousand years to go. Within this century we MUST detect life and therefore intelligence elsewhere. We'll begin to extend lifetime, augment intelligence, slow down. We'll become better at conflict resolution, sanity, justice. Within this millennium we will make contact.
That will be the end of the beginning of the last days.
In the mean time, let's be kind. Forgiving. Merciful. Generous. Regardless.
[ 27. May 2015, 14:43: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
Posted by Alyosha (# 18395) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
In 45 years I have gone from cultic fundamentalist obsessed with 'prophecy' to ... raving postmodern liberal. Therefore the last days were fulfilled in Jesus' generation. The Book of Revelation is therefore contemporary apocalyptic literature from the time of Nero. I'm still a closet fundie, scratch me and I bleed it, but I don't believe it, I don't have to. I believe in the mystery pervading the divine man (does that make Him the human God?) Jesus, the last prophet and his apostles. I believe that all of the prophets from the mythic Moses were inspired by the Holy Spirit, i.e. that He was with them where they were, which doesn't mean that anything they did, like the Law of Moses, was validated by that.
Under the skin I accept the possibility of duality and more in the prophecies that were ALL fulfilled in Christ, according to Him. Which are easy for the modern mind NOT to see.
As a species, we're halfway. Probably a bit over the hill. So we've got a hundred thousand years to go. Within this century we MUST detect life and therefore intelligence elsewhere. We'll begin to extend lifetime, augment intelligence, slow down. We'll become better at conflict resolution, sanity, justice. Within this millennium we will make contact.
That will be the end of the beginning of the last days.
In the mean time, let's be kind. Forgiving. Merciful. Generous. Regardless.
If this causes you to come to the conclusion which you made in your last sentence Martin then I think you're a lot closer to God than most pre, mid and post-trib premillenialists put together.
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Under the skin I accept the possibility of duality and more in the prophecies that were ALL fulfilled in Christ, according to Him. Which are easy for the modern mind NOT to see.
As a species, we're halfway. Probably a bit over the hill. So we've got a hundred thousand years to go. Within this century we MUST detect life and therefore intelligence elsewhere. We'll begin to extend lifetime, augment intelligence, slow down. We'll become better at conflict resolution, sanity, justice. Within this millennium we will make contact.
I suspect a lot of how any specific future-prophecy works out is partly up to us. God is headed a certain direction - bringing all creation to know and enjoy God - but how we get there is somewhat up for grabs.
Take as an easy to discuss (whether or not believed) example the "timetable" approach to Revelation. Some see in it a nuclear war. We've had one nuclear war; "prophecy" fulfilled. We could have another, fulfilling it twice and doing almost unsurvivable damage to the planet and ourselves. Up to us whether there's a second nuclear war or not. We are going to get to God's end goal for us, the easy way or the hard way.
I actually don't think there's a lot of specific event future prophecy in the Bible. More of who God is and what God wants. But I have trouble seeing Martin60's future. At the rate our mega corporations are polluting the planet's soils and waters and now it's deep water reservoirs, war for food and water seems more likely than sanity and justice.
Global warming suggests our grandchildren will have a very different life than we had, in not good ways.
I once read a statement that the Bible shows two pictures - one is everything gets better and better until the glorious end and new creation, the other is everything gets worse and worse until Jesus comes to rescue the remnant who would otherwise perish. He thought both happen at once, and sometimes I think I see that - life spans increasing but soil destruction threatening widespread famine. Medicine doing wonders but more and more people getting lifestyle diseases at ever earlier ages.
The future is in our hands, but the rulers look to short term profit regardless of negative long term effects on the health of the planet and the many species that live on it.
Pick a prophecy, pick an interpretation, you are potentially right, but it doesn't have to be that way. *We* can make the other interpretation turn out to be the right one. Will we choose to pursue Martin60's vision of a far better future in this world? Or continue cutthroat competition for momentary benefit with ever bigger weapons? Or an odd mixture of both?
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on
:
In our usual self-centred human way, we see apocalypse in every generation. History doesn't exactly repeat itself, but it rhymes. I see the rhyming just now as the ISIL/ISIS/IS bunch look like a mating between the North Vietnamese and Khymer Rouge. And the hands-up don't shoot protests rhyme with the race protests from the same era. The "man" we shouldn't trust has an MBA this time, has female representation, and is corporate instead of government. I do enjoy the same mix of optimism and despair because out of it we might see some positive change again. Waiting for the soundtrack and more to laugh at with the current versicle.
Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on
:
I'll admit that eschatology is not an area of theology I have a lot of experience in. I can't quite see the point in spending so much time debating about the Rapture, whether you're pre-trib or whatever. Surely it can't be much of a help to evangelism?
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
I discovered the identity of the anti-Christ many years ago, in an article which demonstrated by numerological analysis of the letters in his name that it was Basil Brush.
George Bush, more like.
I already did that one.
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
:
Alyosha. I've just lost - thank GOD! - some narrow narratives. It doesn't make me a better person. I'm acutely aware of how helpless I am.
Belle Ringer. You are far more balanced than I. I truly believe that no one, from God on down, has the faintest idea how this ends. Only how it transcends.
Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
I discovered the identity of the anti-Christ many years ago, in an article which demonstrated by numerological analysis of the letters in his name that it was Basil Brush.
It makes perfect sense to me that a figure of such cosmic cunning would disguise himself as a children's animal character.
That gives a whole new meaning to BB's catchphrase "Boom! Boom!"
I rest my case.
Posted by Laurelin (# 17211) on
:
Excellent post, Belle Ringer. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
I can't quite see the point in spending so much time debating about the Rapture, whether you're pre-trib or whatever. Surely it can't be much of a help to evangelism?
My feelings about it exactly. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
I don't believe in the Rapture as such. If I had to classify myself as anything, I guess I'd say I'm an amillenialist who thinks things could get pretty dark before the End. Or possibly not ... ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I truly believe that no one, from God on down, has the faintest idea how this ends. Only how it transcends.
I'm not a fan of this post-modern theology that 'God doesn't know either'. We, on the other hand, really have no clue.
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Within this century we MUST detect life and therefore intelligence elsewhere.
Must we? Why?
quote:
We'll begin to extend lifetime, augment intelligence, slow down.
Possibly. I think the first two possibilities, which I think are plausible, will contain their own difficulties and challenges.
quote:
We'll become better at conflict resolution, sanity, justice.
Now this I find wildly optimistic. People were thinking this at the end of the 19th century. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
The human race has an addiction to violence, and a tendency to divide against itself, and I can't see these tendencies ever being entirely erased until human history ceases. And surely some of these instincts are hardwired into us from a purely evolutionary POV. In short, I don't believe they will entirely disappear until Christ comes again.
quote:
Within this millennium we will make contact.
That's a lot of certainty.
quote:
In the mean time, let's be kind. Forgiving. Merciful. Generous. Regardless.
No argument with that.
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
Excellent post, Belle Ringer.
Firsted.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
I can't quite see the point in spending so much time debating about the Rapture, whether you're pre-trib or whatever. Surely it can't be much of a help to evangelism?
My feelings about it exactly.
I don't believe in the Rapture as such. If I had to classify myself as anything, I guess I'd say I'm an amillenialist who thinks things could get pretty dark before the End. Or possibly not ...
And that end will be when?
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I truly believe that no one, from God on down, has the faintest idea how this ends. Only how it transcends.
I'm not a fan of this post-modern theology that 'God doesn't know either'. We, on the other hand, really have no clue.
So what does He know that we don't?
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Within this century we MUST detect life and therefore intelligence elsewhere.
Must we? Why?
Because IF it's there at all, we'll have the technology to detect it.
quote:
quote:
We'll begin to extend lifetime, augment intelligence, slow down.
Possibly. I think the first two possibilities, which I think are plausible, will contain their own difficulties and challenges.
They certainly will.
quote:
quote:
We'll become better at conflict resolution, sanity, justice.
Now this I find wildly optimistic. People were thinking this at the end of the 19th century.
They were right. We just had to go through some stuff they hadn't envisaged first. So will we.
quote:
The human race has an addiction to violence, and a tendency to divide against itself, and I can't see these tendencies ever being entirely erased until human history ceases. And surely some of these instincts are hardwired into us from a purely evolutionary POV. In short, I don't believe they will entirely disappear until Christ comes again.
Absolutely.
quote:
quote:
Within this millennium we will make contact.
That's a lot of certainty.
Predicated on finding life this century - certain if it's there, it's certain.
quote:
quote:
In the mean time, let's be kind. Forgiving. Merciful. Generous. Regardless.
No argument with that.
Ah, how do you feel about IS?
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
So what does He know that we don't?
He knows what he intends to do in response to our free choices.
[ 28. May 2015, 14:36: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
Posted by Laurelin (# 17211) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
And that end will be when?
When Christ returns. To quote CS Lewis, when the author of the play steps onto the stage, the play is over.
quote:
So what does He know that we don't?
The day of my death, for one thing.
quote:
They were right. We just had to go through some stuff they hadn't envisaged first. So will we.
I seriously don't think that particular dilemma will ever end.
quote:
Ah, how do you feel about IS?
The same as I do about any organisation which carries out violence, torture, persecution and genocide.
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
So what does He know that we don't?
He knows what he intends to do in response to our free choices.
When?
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
So what does He know that we don't?
He knows what he intends to do in response to our free choices.
When?
You'll have to ask him that.
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
And that end will be when?
When Christ returns. To quote CS Lewis, when the author of the play steps onto the stage, the play is over.
No sign then.
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So what does He know that we don't?
The day of my death, for one thing.
Where does He say that?
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They were right. We just had to go through some stuff they hadn't envisaged first. So will we.
I seriously don't think that particular dilemma will ever end.
Me too.
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Ah, how do you feel about IS?
The same as I do about any organisation which carries out violence, torture, persecution and genocide.
The same as me I'm sure. What should we do about them? A Christian friend in my small group says they have committed the unforgivable sin.
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
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Originally posted by cliffdweller:
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Originally posted by Martin60:
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Originally posted by cliffdweller:
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Originally posted by Martin60:
So what does He know that we don't?
He knows what he intends to do in response to our free choices.
When?
You'll have to ask him that.
Well we've been exercising our 'free' choices for 200,000 years and apart from His pivotal intervention 2,000 years ago, He doesn't look like He's going to do anything apart from through us for another 2 or 200. It looks like we are dragging it out. Keeping Him waiting.
Posted by Laurelin (# 17211) on
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Originally posted by Martin60:
No sign then.
No sign then of what? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
You do like to be cryptic!
I'm an agnostic about when and how but I am not an agnostic when it comes to Christ literally coming back and setting everything to rights.
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Where does He say that?
Psalm 139: 16: "Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be."
I find that comforting.
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The same as me I'm sure. What should we do about them?
I have prayed for a change of heart in IS. I also want them stopped, but . Our past meddling in the Middle East has not rendered great results.
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A Christian friend in my small group says they have committed the unforgivable sin.
Which is what? Nobody knows what that is. 'The sin against the Holy Ghost' - I have no clue either.
It's up to God how He eventually judges people who are happy to rape and torture and kill and to inflict suffering on millions. I can't comment on the state of their souls because I don't have the capacity to do so. I do wonder if some human beings go beyond the point of no return, if their consciences are so seared that they lose their humanity and eventually their souls. But it's a big question, and I have no easy answers.
Posted by W Hyatt (# 14250) on
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Originally posted by Martin60:
Well we've been exercising our 'free' choices for 200,000 years and apart from His pivotal intervention 2,000 years ago, He doesn't look like He's going to do anything apart from through us for another 2 or 200. It looks like we are dragging it out. Keeping Him waiting.
A few of us think that the last of the last days have come and gone already as a result of the second of His pivotal interventions some 250 years ago. Not quite what people were expecting, I know, and not as dramatic as the first time, but all the easier to believe in because of it.
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
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Originally posted by W Hyatt:
A few of us think that the last of the last days have come and gone already as a result of the second of His pivotal interventions some 250 years ago. Not quite what people were expecting, I know, and not as dramatic as the first time, but all the easier to believe in because of it.
I'm lost. What are you talking about? The establishment of the first chocolate factory in the US?
Posted by W Hyatt (# 14250) on
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The first chocolate factory in the US was a noteworthy event, but I was referring to Emanuel Swedenborg* and his theological works in which he introduced a new way to interpret the Bible.
* See also my signature line for more links:
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
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Matthew 24:5 For many will come in my name, claiming, “I am the Messiah,” and will deceive many.
Posted by W Hyatt (# 14250) on
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Yes, it would be enough to discredit Swedenborg if he had said he was the Messiah, but he made no such claim. His claim was only to be in a position much like Paul's, except that he did nothing more than write.
Posted by itsarumdo (# 18174) on
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Originally posted by Martin60:
Matthew 24:5 For many will come in my name, claiming, “I am the Messiah,” and will deceive many.
Yes - well, for sure that is common - including (but not constrained to) "messiahs" of the secular movement.
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
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All in the locus of grandiose claims about Swedenborg being the focus of divine intervention, the most significant in 2000 years, 250 years ago.
Posted by itsarumdo (# 18174) on
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Originally posted by Martin60:
All in the locus of grandiose claims about Swedenborg being the focus of divine intervention, the most significant in 2000 years, 250 years ago.
I think God sends us "help" all the time - in many ways, from people who just give good examples, to authors, or whatever. Some people are just "influenced" by God, and some are literally sent with a specific purpose. If you want an example of the first, I think Tolkien is a good example. Maybe Schweitzer could be an example of the second. I agree that Swedenborg was probably not some significant marker in history in a biblical sense. However, that's not to despise either the man or his legacy. He was probably one of the greatest polymath scientists ever, comparable to Leonardo, who spent the last half of his life praying and writing. And his influence places him like the acorn that has grown into a vast and fertile tree. His writings have massively influenced non-orthodox spirituality right up to this day.
It didn't absolutely start at Swedenborg, however. He was in turn influenced by Jacob Boehme - who, rather like Mohammed and many of the biblical Prophets was a relatively illiterate and uneducated man until he received and wrote down some rather sophisticated and complex ideas on the relationship between God and Man.
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
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I can think of the beginnings of a hundred, a thousand infinitely more relevant: Dostoevsky, Tolstoy, Lincoln, Martin Luther King, John and Robert Kennedy, Mother Theresa, Harper Lee, Joe Hill (a greater Swede), Raoul Wallenberg (and another yet), Orwell, Nelson Mandela, Gandhi, Oscar Schindler, Wilfred Owen, Henri Nouwen ...
Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on
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Originally posted by Eutychus:
The history of movements that did feel "convicted" to "press that button" is informative (one of many examples; another one).
Not sure what will become of Camping's followers but us descendants of Millerites have done all right for ourselves since then. The trick is not to get suckered into proclaiming successive Jesus-must-arrive-by dates, when the first one doesn't work out.
That said, I am a fourth-generation Seventh-day Adventist, and each of the preceding three generations went to church as young people being told (and in most cases, I imagine, believing sincerely) that Jesus would come back before they reached adulthood. Still this sincerely-held belief did not stop any of them from going to college, getting married, having children, starting businesses, and generally doing all the things people do when they expect the world to last forever. I think most people compartmentalize, to a large extent -- much the same way I assume people who believe in hell must manage to do, to avoid getting through each day without being tormented by images of friends and co-workers being roasted alive for all eternity.
In other words, I don't think for most people their theology, no matter how deeply held, has that big an impact on their daily lives. Or rather, it does have some impact, but it's adjusted in some way to take into account the necessity of living a relatively normal life.
[ 29. May 2015, 10:12: Message edited by: Trudy Scrumptious ]
Posted by itsarumdo (# 18174) on
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Originally posted by Martin60:
I can think of the beginnings of a hundred, a thousand infinitely more relevant: Dostoevsky, Tolstoy, Lincoln, Martin Luther King, John and Robert Kennedy, Mother Theresa, Harper Lee, Joe Hill (a greater Swede), Raoul Wallenberg (and another yet), Orwell, Nelson Mandela, Gandhi, Oscar Schindler, Wilfred Owen, Henri Nouwen ...
yes - it's not that difficult to realise in retrospect
how many people get it *enough* when they are alive?
[ 29. May 2015, 10:46: Message edited by: itsarumdo ]
Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on
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I have a friend (British) who is convinced that Obama is the anti-Christ. Her reason: he's "anti-Israel". Her only doubt: "it's too obvious, and the anti-Christ is supposed to be a surprise".
Obama and not W?
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
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Hmmm ... not a view I've encountered here in the UK - but then, I suspect certain types of fundamentalist evangelical here might be as prone to this sort of thing as their cousins in the US.
Posted by Alyosha (# 18395) on
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I think some people have identified Prince Charles as a candidate for Antichristmanship, but it's not very likely.
It would be just our luck to be born in the last of the last days though (as if we don't have enough to deal with). In some ways it does feel like the last of the last days to me, but that may be a subjective view. I'm not pressing that button yet.
I think the BBC technology correspondent taking a chip in his hand was a little disturbing, but most people seemed to be fine with it. So I have to learn that the things which disturb me don't disturb others.
But the concessions and compromises that those of us who embrace technology make are outstanding. Years ago I would never have allowed some of my data to be available in cloud services for example. Or I would be shocked by bio-data being taken in schools. Now, it is a matter of even questioning whether the Snoopers Charter really is that bad.
Maybe a chip in the head or the hand happens the same way? You just end up telling yourself that all that last days claptrap is allegory and tell the people inserting the chip that you really do hate that Biblical literalism and you have nothing to hide therefore nothing to fear.
[ 31. May 2015, 11:42: Message edited by: Alyosha ]
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
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All this reminds me of a story I saw a vicar tell on the radio once ...
He used to visit a little old lady in his parish and was always taken by her gruff, no nonsense understatement.
One day, when he visited she told him that the Jehovah's Witnesses had been round in the week and left some literature. She hadn't known what to make of it and asked the vicar if he knew more about them.
The vicar explained that they were an extreme sect who predicted the imminent end of the world.
The old lady rolled her eyes, 'That's all we need ...!'
You can imagine, can't you? 'That bloomin' bus to Borchester never do come on time ... and that grocer's never got cauliflower in when you need it ... as for that patch of grass at the back of Rose Cottage, why, it's in a shocking state - and you'd think they'd have time to mow it proper an' all ... and as for all them stars tumbling out of heaven and they beasts with stings in their tails and all them 'eads ... why, that's all we need ...'
Posted by Alyosha (# 18395) on
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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
All this reminds me of a story I saw a vicar tell on the radio once ...
He used to visit a little old lady in his parish and was always taken by her gruff, no nonsense understatement.
One day, when he visited she told him that the Jehovah's Witnesses had been round in the week and left some literature. She hadn't known what to make of it and asked the vicar if he knew more about them.
The vicar explained that they were an extreme sect who predicted the imminent end of the world.
The old lady rolled her eyes, 'That's all we need ...!'
You can imagine, can't you? 'That bloomin' bus to Borchester never do come on time ... and that grocer's never got cauliflower in when you need it ... as for that patch of grass at the back of Rose Cottage, why, it's in a shocking state - and you'd think they'd have time to mow it proper an' all ... and as for all them stars tumbling out of heaven and they beasts with stings in their tails and all them 'eads ... why, that's all we need ...'
I think you have just described my internal monologue. How did you get inside my head? Hmmm?
Posted by balaam (# 4543) on
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The Archers go apocalyptic: quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
You can imagine, can't you? 'That bloomin' bus to Borchester never do come on time ... and that grocer's never got cauliflower in when you need it ... as for that patch of grass at the back of Rose Cottage, why, it's in a shocking state - and you'd think they'd have time to mow it proper an' all ... and as for all them stars tumbling out of heaven and they beasts with stings in their tails and all them 'eads ... why, that's all we need ...'
(Cue music, Dum, di-dum di-dum di-dum) Thanks for that Gamaliel.
Edit for coding
[again]
[ 31. May 2015, 12:24: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
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Ha ha ...
Well, I don't know about getting 'inside your head' but as a 'recovering revivalist' myself - and from the tone and tenor of your posts, I don't think one has to be psychic to work out the kind of things that occur to people along their trajectory towards - or away from - such things ...
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
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Originally posted by Alyosha:
Maybe a chip in the head or the hand happens the same way? You just end up telling yourself that all that last days claptrap is allegory and tell the people inserting the chip that you really do hate that Biblical literalism and you have nothing to hide therefore nothing to fear.
I have to say the chip-in-hand one still gives me pause.
Not least because the whole cashless payment system is a way of the financial/economic sector gaining more control over individuals' lives ('cash: says less about you than American Express ever can'), which seems to me to tie in very much with what Babylon is all about in Revelation; a financial artifice that is detached from actual, important, material things.
That said, I'm not about to convert all my paper worth (such as it is) into gold.
Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on
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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Hmmm ... not a view I've encountered here in the UK - but then, I suspect certain types of fundamentalist evangelical here might be as prone to this sort of thing as their cousins in the US.
Sadly it is common over here. On Facebook, in the run up to the Election, I saw people asserting that Milliband must be demon possessed because of his "dark eyes". If I tried to make it up I couldn't.
Posted by Alyosha (# 18395) on
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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Ha ha ...
Well, I don't know about getting 'inside your head' but as a 'recovering revivalist' myself - and from the tone and tenor of your posts, I don't think one has to be psychic to work out the kind of things that occur to people along their trajectory towards - or away from - such things ...
Revivalism may be an inner grumble I suppose, but isn't all discontent?
Anyway, these are not grumbles, these are valid complaints. Some people would tell King David to stop whinging.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
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Originally posted by Robert Armin:
On Facebook, in the run up to the Election, I saw people asserting that Milliband must be demon possessed because of his "dark eyes". If I tried to make it up I couldn't.
I'm surprised they didn't pick on that white streak in his hair, too.
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
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That's assuming he wrote all the Psalms attributed to him - or even that he was an historical figure in the first place.
I rather suspect he did exist - but I wouldn't be surprised if most 'of David' attributions came retrospectively at the time of the second Temple.
Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on
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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
That's assuming he wrote all the Psalms attributed to him - or even that he was an historical figure in the first place.
Milliband? No, we were talking about Ed, not his brother.
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
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Aye Gamaliel. You used that magic word that transcends my comment elsewhere. Trajectory. We have to go through ALL of this shit, and worse to come I'm sure, before all we shut up and open our hands and arms wide.
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
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Originally posted by Robert Armin:
I have a friend (British) who is convinced that Obama is the anti-Christ. Her reason: he's "anti-Israel". Her only doubt: "it's too obvious, and the anti-Christ is supposed to be a surprise".
Obama and not W?
According to some of my neighbors at the time, W was a prophet of God. Said in hushed tones of awe. No idea what they think now but they'd probably vote for him again.
Posted by Alyosha (# 18395) on
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Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
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Originally posted by Robert Armin:
I have a friend (British) who is convinced that Obama is the anti-Christ. Her reason: he's "anti-Israel". Her only doubt: "it's too obvious, and the anti-Christ is supposed to be a surprise".
Obama and not W?
According to some of my neighbors at the time, W was a prophet of God. Said in hushed tones of awe. No idea what they think now but they'd probably vote for him again.
I think some American Christians are considering Jonathan Cahn, who wrote The Harbinger to be a modern day prophet. There has been some speculation that he is one of the two witnesses. Don't ask how I know this stuff.
Posted by Alyosha (# 18395) on
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And for the delight of all the eschatology lovers: Jonathan Cahn having much more fun than most of us.
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
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Yeah, America is backslidden from this.[warning: graphic content]
[ 02. June 2015, 21:36: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
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hosting/
Martin60, it's considered polite to at least give some clear idea of what you're linking to if the content can be described as graphic.
(Discussion of this and related issues is currently in progress here)
/hosting
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
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I beg your and all others pardon Eutychus.
That's the second apology I owe you I recall.
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