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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Horrific set of circumstances: Josh Duggar
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Tulfes
Shipmate
# 18000
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Posted
I hope that this post is not viewed as intruding on private grief but there seems to be a media frenzy going on in the US about a real life family called Duggar.
For UK and other readers, the Duggars are an ultra strict Evangelical Christian couple who have raised, or are raising, apparently successfully 19 children. They feature in a reality TV show which has been going since 2008 following their lives and the lives of their offspring. The couple expound views on homosexuality, abortion, the submissive role of women, modesty in dress etc which I understand are typical of the Evangelical right wing in the US.
Now it seems that the eldest son, now 27, sexually abused possibly 4 of his younger sisters when he was 14 and they were children. [DELETED] until 2006 by which time it was not possible to take formal action against the son due to statute of limitation. Since then, from 2008, the parents have presented the family as a happy and united group expressing Christian values in their lifestyle and an ultra strict attitude to sexual activity out with marriage.
The situation has now been revealed and the family are being mercilessly torn to shreds by the media. [DELETED] the victims (who apparently have not received proper counselling as their brother's crimes against them were kept under wraps) are still part of the family and must be suffering dreadfully.
There seem to be so many aspects to this situation, which seems to have passed by the attention of the UK media (so far as I am aware). The hypocrisy of the parents seems to be the justification for the media's outpouring of venom against them, but there are so many victims (including the perpetrator himself, who was a young teenager at the time) that one does shake one's head in disbelief.
Do our US readers or anyone else have any thoughts on what is going on?
[Sections marked as DELETED above have been removed as being potentially defamatory - Eliab (Purgatory host and occasional libel lawyer)]
[ 31. May 2015, 08:51: Message edited by: Eliab ]
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
Thread closed on grounds of almost inevitable libellous comments. May or may not reopen pending admin consultation.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
OK, after some consultation backstage this thread is now open for business again, subject to the following provisos:
1. Abide by Commandment 7: don't post anything potentially libellous.
2. If you want to discuss the specific case referred to in the OP, please do so using links to reputable news sources for any stated claims of what happened (preferably with the actual claim of wrong-doing posted as a short quote from said news article rather than your own paraphrase).
3. Debate will be able to thrive here if it focuses on the general issues arising rather than specific aspects of this case.
4. If you're feeling Hellish, then take your comments to Hell; don't post them here (note that C7 and other guidelines also apply in Hell).
There is clearly plenty to be discussed here, but whether this can be achieved depends a lot on how it's done. Hosts will be watching this thread closely; don't expect any indulgence on our part before bringing in admins if required.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tulfes:
... There seem to be so many aspects to this situation, which seems to have passed by the attention of the UK media ...
So far as I am aware, this story has not made the attention of the UK media at all. From the summary above, there's not much to suggest any reason why it should. We have plenty of problem families here for our press to write about.
Was the reality show ever shown here? I don't watch them. So I wouldn't know.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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moonfruit
Shipmate
# 15818
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Posted
Reading all about people like the Duggars is one of my strange little interests - their lifestyle and the whole sub-culture they're part of is something I find weirdly fascinating.
A good round up of links about both this story and the Duggars and their beliefs more generally can be found here for those who'd like to know more: Duggar Family Scandal: A Reader
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All I know is that you came and made beauty from my mess.
Posts: 180 | From: Just outside the M25 | Registered: Aug 2010
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
It begs the question as to where and how the alleged perpetrator learned the bhevaiour. Children who engage in sexually abusive behaviour have usually been sexually abused themselves.
Not reporting the sexual abuse of your own children would rapidly draw the attention of the police and social services in this country. For example, previous failure to protect your own children would lead the authorities to consider if any children you are currently raising are likely to ne at risk. Test of whether a safeguarding concern is substantiated is balance of probablitlies rather than beyond reasonable doubt - plus a confession would be significant confirmation anyway.
[ 31. May 2015, 08:23: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Tulfes
Shipmate
# 18000
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Tulfes:
... There seem to be so many aspects to this situation, which seems to have passed by the attention of the UK media ...
So far as I am aware, this story has not made the attention of the UK media at all. From the summary above, there's not much to suggest any reason why it should. We have plenty of problem families here for our press to write about.
Was the reality show ever shown here? I don't watch them. So I wouldn't know.
Yes, the show has been on one of the satellite channels, can't remember which one.
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
A work colleagues wife used to watch it, so it is clearly available probably on a US-import channel.
His reaction is interesting - he is not a Christian, and he sees it as an image of the US-Right-Wing-Evangelical Christian. In other words, it reflects on Christianity for him, and I am sure for many others.
What comes over is the hypocrisy - they claimed to be protecting their children by their beliefs and their actions, whereas they were actually damaging them. In many senses, the illegality is a matte for the police, the abuse is also for the authorities, but shows that they are as broken and failing as everyone else.
It is the fact that they claim otherwise that seems to be - in the UK - the worst part of it. Not to dismiss the abuse [DELETED], but we have had our fill of abuse scandals. US Christian hypocrisy we seem to be able to deal with more of.
(Potentially defamatory section deleted - Eliab)
[ 31. May 2015, 08:55: Message edited by: Eliab ]
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
HOSTING
Everyone on this thread is requested to read and comply with the warning above.
References to what the Duggans (any of them) or third parties did or failed to do in relation to the incidents under discussion should be supported by citations from a reputable news source. The Purgatory hosts have neither the time nor the inclination to sift every post for allegations made and weigh them against such facts as are in the public domain.
If you want to make a comment on what someone is supposed to have done or not done, and find that it can't readily be found as a clear statement by a reputable source, that is a very good indication that you shouldn't be posting it. General discussion of the issues is to be preferred to analysis of this particular case.
If this thread cannot be controlled within the limits set out by Eutychus it will be closed.
/HOSTING
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
Apologies - I had not intended to breach the guidelines.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
have a look at this and this for more information on the way the Duggars see the world. Keeping things vague to stay on the right side of the law.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
That second link is very depressing.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tulfes:
Now it seems that the eldest son, now 27, sexually abused possibly 4 of his younger sisters when he was 14 and they were children.
In other words, when he was a child also.
I know very little about this story, but the one thing that irks me about it is that much of the reaction is talking about a 27-year-old man as if he has confessed the faults of a 27-year-old.
In short, the trial by media he is undergoing is the trial of an adult. Which is simply not appropriate. Whatever the rights and wrongs of it, it is not proper to treat this as if an adult man committed an offence.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
The statute of limitations is a farce.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I've not read the story, and am probably not going to get round to, but the knee jerk assumption that parents are iniquitous because they didn't betray one of their children to the police/social services for abusing another of them is appalling. I just hope none of us ever find ourselves in a situation where we are faced with that clash of loyalties. It must be a terrible dilemma to find oneself faced with.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Tulfes
Shipmate
# 18000
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I've not read the story, and am probably not going to get round to, but the knee jerk assumption that parents are iniquitous because they didn't betray one of their children to the police/social services for abusing another of them is appalling. I just hope none of us ever find ourselves in a situation where we are faced with that clash of loyalties. It must be a terrible dilemma to find oneself faced with.
Would a parent who does not "betray" (very strange terminology) an abusing child to the authorities not be failing in their duty to protect the abused child/ren by letting the abuser continue to live in the same home as the abused without seeking treatment for the abuser or taking some other action to prevent further abuse? I'm speaking generally, and not suggesting any failure to act on the part of the Duggar parents.
[ 31. May 2015, 13:26: Message edited by: Tulfes ]
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tulfes:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I've not read the story, and am probably not going to get round to, but the knee jerk assumption that parents are iniquitous because they didn't betray one of their children to the police/social services for abusing another of them is appalling. I just hope none of us ever find ourselves in a situation where we are faced with that clash of loyalties. It must be a terrible dilemma to find oneself faced with.
Would a parent who does not "betray" (very strange terminology) an abusing child to the authorities not be failing in their duty to protect the abused child/ren by letting the abuser continue to live in the same home as the abused without seeking treatment for the abuser or taking some other action to prevent further abuse? I'm speaking generally, and not suggesting any failure to act on the part of the Duggar parents.
It's simply too general a question to know the answer to. How old? What have they done? How often? Which kind of authorities are we talking about?
I'm with Enoch. I think it would be incredibly difficult to know what to do, as it involves very serious consideration of the interests of multiple children.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Tulfes
Shipmate
# 18000
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Tulfes:
Now it seems that the eldest son, now 27, sexually abused possibly 4 of his younger sisters when he was 14 and they were children.
In other words, when he was a child also.
I know very little about this story, but the one thing that irks me about it is that much of the reaction is talking about a 27-year-old man as if he has confessed the faults of a 27-year-old.
In short, the trial by media he is undergoing is the trial of an adult. Which is simply not appropriate. Whatever the rights and wrongs of it, it is not proper to treat this as if an adult man committed an offence.
Yes, he was a child himself when he committed the alleged offences and yes, the trial by media is shocking. I don't seek to defend the perpetrator's actions or the media reaction, but I suspect that the reaction is mainly driven by alleged hypocrisy by the parents in presenting the family over seven years to the media in a particular way and also by alleged hypocrisy by the perpetrator in pursuing as an adult a career in a right-wing political pressure group condemning gays, transgender people, women seeking abortions or practising birth control as sexually immoral sinners.
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Young people who are convicted of sexual offences under age at the sort of levels reported are placed on the sex offenders register and a whole range of restrictions are placed on what they can and cannot do. They tend not to be able to attend school as the risks are perceived to be too high. Low risk young offenders tend to have to serve community sentences under the Youth Offending Team (YOT).
It is very complicated assessing their future risk. There are a couple of places that provide support - the NSPCC has an assessment service and SWAAY is one of the few places that provides therapy and assessment in the UK.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
[Treading VERY carefully]
The betrayal of one child over another is a difficult moral question to address. One would imagine that the betrayal of one over four would be less of a challenge.
[DELETED]
There would seem to be an element of purity culture that argues for women keeping themselves pure, and men will be men.
[Treading more carefully still - Eliab]
[ 01. June 2015, 11:18: Message edited by: Eliab ]
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Michelle Duggar (the mother) campaigned against transgender women, on the basis that trans women could be "men with past child predator convictions" just pretending to be trans women in order to access under age girls.
There was a Change.org petition some months ago.
(Googling gives multiple hits, but I don't know which sites are reputable, so I went for Change.org. Also, the Change.org petition clearly predates the current news.)
The hypocrisy claims are based on the fact that they have held themselves out to be a family whose strict "Christian" ethos keeps children safe.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Tulfes
Shipmate
# 18000
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
[Treading VERY carefully]
The betrayal of one child over another is a difficult moral question to address. One would imagine that the betrayal of one over four would be less of a challenge.
It does seem that only admitting it when there is no longer a chance of legal recriminations gives and indication as to the real reason for not mentioning it at an earlier point.
There would seem to be an element of purity culture that argues for women keeping themselves pure, and men will be men.
(Also treading very carefully)
I don't see how it is the betrayal of the alleged perpetrator to bring the alleged sexual offending of your child (offending which, if committed by an adult, would be deemed criminal) to the attention of the authorities (by which I mean the police or the social work agencies in your country). This will enable other children to be protected (those in the family of the perpetrator and those in the wider community) and will enable the best possible treatment to be obtained for the perpetrator while s/he is young enough to benefit from this to the maximum. This action is in the best interests of the child perpetrator and children generally (whether existing children or future children who might be harmed by the actions of the perpetrator if his/ her behaviour is not addressed). Surely it doesn't depend on the number of known victims or the "seriousness" of the behaviour. Surely any sexual conduct towards a minor is serious.
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
One of Moonfruit's links, "Diary of an Autodidact," was particularly interesting. Written by someone who spent his teens under the same minister who the Duggars follow. This writer says that the teachings make teenage boys very vulnerable to sexual crime. They are taught that thinking about sex is as grave a sin as rape. (The "lust in the heart," words taken to their most literal extreme.) So, teenage boys whose raging hormones are making them think about sex almost constantly feel that they can't really do anything worse than they're already doing. Then of course, being homeschooled and kept strictly away from the cheerleader in science class that typical boys would be thinking about, leaves them always home with sisters.
I've never watched the Duggar's show for the same reason I've never watched the Mormon fundamentalist counterpart, "Sister Wives." The commercials alone make me nauseated. We always see the proud patriarch, smugly smirking and bragging about his big family while the haggard wife, or wives, droop beside them. To me they seem to be hiding behind a façade of godliness when they really just want everyone to see what studs they are.
In spite of the long dresses and freshly washed faces all I ever see are families obsessed with sex. All day everyday it's; wear this so boys won't get erections, have as much sex with the wife as you can so the other men will be impressed, talk about what the LBGT community does in the privacy of their homes and the state of your daughters' hymens. Most of all never let up on that disgusting "quiver-full," concept. I'm so thankful I grew up in a home where I never once had to think about my father's penis.
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Hiro's Leap
Shipmate
# 12470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Whatever the rights and wrongs of it, it is not proper to treat this as if an adult man committed an offence.
Yes, exactly.
quote:
Originally posted by Tulfes:
(offending which, if committed by an adult, would be deemed criminal)
I'd think the alleged offences are criminal for a 14/15 year old too.
quote:
[Contacting the authorities] will enable the best possible treatment to be obtained for the perpetrator
Keeping this general, does anyone here know what is the likely result is of a 14/15 year old in the U.S. being found guilty of the sorts of sexual offences alleged in this case? Is it going to be good quality treatment, or is it imprisonment, violence and (quite possibly) rape in a young offender's prison? After release, would they be publicly known and tracked as a sex offender, or would the conviction be wiped?
Some 17 year olds in the US have been treated horrendously badly for consensual sex with their 15 y.o. girlfriends. I'm not convinced a slightly younger teenager would get "best possible" treatment.
Posts: 3418 | From: UK, OK | Registered: Mar 2007
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tulfes:
For UK and other readers, the Duggars are an ultra strict Evangelical Christian couple who have raised, or are raising, apparently successfully 19 children.
If founded, the allegations of abuse raise questions about the "apparent" child-rearing "success" of this family.
If unfounded, the allegations raise similar questions, as we must wonder what might motivate such accusations.
As to the media frenzy, this is the US, and sharks are drawn like magnets to the faintest hint of blood. It's par for the course.
Finally, and by no means least, I can't help but wonder about the "success" of child-rearing methods which include putting one's family on public view every week for years at a stretch.
Reality shows are well-known to be anything but; they get scripted. Presumably, any typical family does what it does, good or ill, under no such constraints.
What does the religious community to which the Duggars claim allegiance think of this practice -- of putting one's family on display, presumably in exchange for payment, as one means of supporting that family financially?
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
To Twilight's comments, I would add the aspect of fear as an overriding emotion. The Duggars apparently did seek help (albeit late) for their son, but instead of taking him to a certified counselor or therapist, they took him to a "Christian" program that consisted entirely of helping a friend with a home remodeling business apparently because they were concerned about the influence of other secular programs. The girls did not seem to have rec'd any counseling/assistance.
The Duggars describe this period as "dark and difficult time" and I would take them at their word. It would be dark and difficult for any of us undergoing such a horrific set of circumstances, of course. But in the Duggars case the fear-based ideology that kept them from accessing the very resources that might have helped navigate such a dark and difficult path. And of course, the isolationism that came with that fear-based ideology is what kept the children out of schools and other sorts of places where they might have encountered other adults (including mandated reporters) who might have helped.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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moonfruit
Shipmate
# 15818
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
This writer says that the teachings make teenage boys very vulnerable to sexual crime. They are taught that thinking about sex is as grave a sin as rape. (The "lust in the heart," words taken to their most literal extreme.) So, teenage boys whose raging hormones are making them think about sex almost constantly feel that they can't really do anything worse than they're already doing. Then of course, being homeschooled and kept strictly away from the cheerleader in science class that typical boys would be thinking about, leaves them always home with sisters.
<snip>
In spite of the long dresses and freshly washed faces all I ever see are families obsessed with sex. All day everyday it's; wear this so boys won't get erections, have as much sex with the wife as you can so the other men will be impressed, talk about what the LBGT community does in the privacy of their homes and the state of your daughters' hymens. Most of all never let up on that disgusting "quiver-full," concept. I'm so thankful I grew up in a home where I never once had to think about my father's penis.
This is one of the things that really strikes me about this very conservative/ quiverfull/ patriarchal culture - the obsession with (sexual) purity leads down some very twisty avenues. The bit that concerns me most is how the onus is put so firmly on girls and women: they must be modest and pure because otherwise they can cause the men around them to sin. A good example of this kind of thinking can be found on this post, from a blog belonging to a similar family: Large Families on Purpose
Another thing that strikes me about this emphasis on women and girls dressing modestly, is how it infantilises men, by effectively painting them as unable to control their desires and urges - I have not really read anything that encourages men to not look with lust; the onus is, as I said, on the women and girls to not cause a man to look with lust. This also has the subtle (or maybe not so subtle) effect of making women responsible for any "unwanted attention" they do incur. Overall, I think it's a dangerous and poisonous approach, for both the men and the women.
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All I know is that you came and made beauty from my mess.
Posts: 180 | From: Just outside the M25 | Registered: Aug 2010
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
The statute of limitations is a farce.
No, it isn't. What it is is complicated.
Time affects so much, both in quality of real memories and what may be false memory. Memory is a less solid thing than we tend to think and time complicates this.
Time degrades evidence of all sorts.
Limiting prosecution time is a reasonable concept that is often poorly applied.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
In other words, when he was a child also.
He was 14, not 6. Legally adult in many countries and considered functionally adult in many crimes in many countries, including the US. So I don't accept this as an excuse or mitigation.
The problems here are the bullshit "I've asked forgiveness, so now it is over", [DELETED] the lack of treatment for victim and perpetrator and the failure to asses future potential risk.
As Ck points out, risk-assessment is complicated, but failure to consider potential reoffence is rubbish.
[Comment deleted for legal reasons - Eliab]
[ 01. June 2015, 11:16: Message edited by: Eliab ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
It begs the question as to where and how the alleged perpetrator learned the bhevaiour. Children who engage in sexually abusive behaviour have usually been sexually abused themselves.
This is often said, but the data are difficult to come by, due I think to the problem of 'base rates'. If statistics about the frequency of sexual abuse are accurate, we have a very high base rate of people in the general population who have experienced sexual abuse. We will have at least this proportion in any group who go on to sexually assault others.
The data are usually collected from those facing charges or having been convicted of sexual assault, who are motivated to claim sexual abuse and other forms of maltreatment to influence the handling of their cases and them after conviction. Thus, I expect the general idea that sexual abusers as a rule have been sexually abused themselves, and that this alleged sexual abuse is somehow causatively linked to their becoming sexual assaulters is probably a very incomplete understanding. It makes for a good 'just so' story within the life of any sexual offender.
Further, it makes it seen as though sexual abuse victims are at significant additional risk to become sex abusers themselves. I am also unwilling to accept that being drunk gives someone the excuse for bad behaviour, or being a refugee, or have been harshly disciplined as a child, or other such things.
quote:
Not reporting the sexual abuse of your own children would rapidly draw the attention of the police and social services in this country. For example, previous failure to protect your own children would lead the authorities to consider if any children you are currently raising are likely to ne at risk. Test of whether a safeguarding concern is substantiated is balance of probablitlies rather than beyond reasonable doubt - plus a confession would be significant confirmation anyway.
Completely agree. The parents in any such situation are clearly failing to protect children. An investigation would occur in Canada. Further, there are no statutes of limitations for such crimes here. We seem to have at any time several cases where the offences were committed 10 to 40 years in the past.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
Tulfes - I was talking in more general terms, as I think there is a tendency for the more conservative end of the market to be. It is not the subtlety that you have explored - it is just about Which one do I support, A or B?
The black and white thinking that is endemic in the theologically conservative community seems to also apply to family life decisions, in this case. Rather than carefully thought through decisions, there is a tendency among some people to see everything in terms of simple choices.
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Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I know nothing about this family, and from what I read am not sure I want to.
quote:
They feature in a reality TV show which has been going since 2008
Apart from anything else that alone seems really awful.
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
The parents in any such situation are clearly failing to protect children.
A friend of mine works (off-camera) for a pubic television station. While PBS doesn't (AFAIK)produce reality shows per se, they do produce nature documentaries and the like, and my friend's work often gives her an up-close-&-personal view of both filming procedures and the unedited film for some of these. Those "natural" scenes aren't always so natural as we'd like to believe.
One could argue that a family whose patriarch has invited a film crew, producers, script-writers, assistants, scene managers, prop personnel, etc. etc. etc. into his family's life, to be "managed" and tweaked and re-arranged and re-interpreted in ways likely to keep audiences interested without distressing corporate sponsors could be said to have abrogated their responsibilities to "protect [their] children" long before any abuse allegations surface.
[code]
[ 31. May 2015, 18:15: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Brenda Clough
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# 18061
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Posted
It is extraordinarily lucrative for the Duggar family to be on TV. Most 'Quiverful' families have difficulty togging out the kids in matching outfits, or buying vehicles enough to transport them. (The movement calls for women to stay and home and not work, so it is in theory Dad who is the sole support of all of them.)
The power of TV means that they are, alas! One of the public faces of Christianity in the US. Between these people and the Westboro Baptist Church it is a wonder that Jesus has any followers at all. An account
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
The black and white thinking that is endemic in the theologically conservative community ...
Okay, this is bugging me. I have seen as much black-and-white thinking among my liberal friends (sometimes more) as I have among my conservative friends. Black-and-white thinking is a human problem, not a theologically conservative one.
And it seems to me inappropriate to take this family and hold them up, even by implication, as an example of theological conservatives. They are extreme outliers, just as the Flat Earth Society are extreme outliers not to be taken as representative of skeptics in general. (If they weren't extreme outliers, why would anybody offer them a reality show?)
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Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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rolyn
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# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tulfes:
There seem to be so many aspects to this situation, which seems to have passed by the attention of the UK media (so far as I am aware). The hypocrisy of the parents seems to be the justification for the media's outpouring of venom against them, but there are so many victims (including the perpetrator himself, who was a young teenager at the time) that one does shake one's head in disbelief.
The UK media have rather had their fill of sensational sex abuse scandals since savile.
If one was too shake one's head over hypocrisies surrounding Christians down the ages the head would soon come separate from the body. Also abuse within families is sadly not unheard of, nor is the matter of other family members staying silent over it.
If people are paraded around as model Christians happily dishing out condemnations re. the lifestyles of others then the media are pretty likely going to go for the jugular with something like that.
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Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Tulfes
Shipmate
# 18000
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by Tulfes:
There seem to be so many aspects to this situation, which seems to have passed by the attention of the UK media (so far as I am aware). The hypocrisy of the parents seems to be the justification for the media's outpouring of venom against them, but there are so many victims (including the perpetrator himself, who was a young teenager at the time) that one does shake one's head in disbelief.
The UK media have rather had their fill of sensational sex abuse scandals since savile.
If one was too shake one's head over hypocrisies surrounding Christians down the ages the head would soon come separate from the body. Also abuse within families is sadly not unheard of, nor is the matter of other family members staying silent over it.
If people are paraded around as model Christians happily dishing out condemnations re. the lifestyles of others then the media are pretty likely going to go for the jugular with something like that.
Sorry for not expressing myself more clearly. I wasn't (just) shaking my head in disbelief at the hypocrisy but also at the young victims who have been (apparently, allegedly) unprotected.
[ 31. May 2015, 18:34: Message edited by: Tulfes ]
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Penny S
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# 14768
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Posted
That family's shift to long skirts to keep men's eyes off the crotch has ignored a couple of things.
One, inhibition of movement - OK, she discusses doing housework like women at th ebeginning of the last century, but they weren't wearing hobble skirts. I want to be able to move fast if I want to, and clothing which stops women running has been around for forever. Why?
Two, they don't seem to have spotted that their styles involve V-necked tops, and I sould tell them a few things about where men's eyes go with those. The church youth club put me right off V-necks.
I can't see why trousers with a long top wouldn't be modest enough - doesn't have to be so long it's like shalwar kameez, and they can still be active.
It's to do with control.
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:
quote:
[Contacting the authorities] will enable the best possible treatment to be obtained for the perpetrator
Keeping this general, does anyone here know what is the likely result is of a 14/15 year old in the U.S. being found guilty of the sorts of sexual offences alleged in this case? Is it going to be good quality treatment, or is it imprisonment, violence and (quite possibly) rape in a young offender's prison? After release, would they be publicly known and tracked as a sex offender, or would the conviction be wiped?
Some 17 year olds in the US have been treated horrendously badly for consensual sex with their 15 y.o. girlfriends. I'm not convinced a slightly younger teenager would get "best possible" treatment.
I know little about the Duggars or this particular case (and what I know I don't like), but I completely understand why they may not have believed that "contacting the authorities" would result in the best possible outcomes.
Adult prison as a juvenile, registration on the sex offenders list for the rest of his life, severe restrictions on where he can live and what he can do for the rest of his life, etc. were all possible outcomes.
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Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
No problem T. I was being a little flippant.
Thoughts are indeed for those who suffer over abuse.
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Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Tulfes
Shipmate
# 18000
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:
quote:
[Contacting the authorities] will enable the best possible treatment to be obtained for the perpetrator
Keeping this general, does anyone here know what is the likely result is of a 14/15 year old in the U.S. being found guilty of the sorts of sexual offences alleged in this case? Is it going to be good quality treatment, or is it imprisonment, violence and (quite possibly) rape in a young offender's prison? After release, would they be publicly known and tracked as a sex offender, or would the conviction be wiped?
Some 17 year olds in the US have been treated horrendously badly for consensual sex with their 15 y.o. girlfriends. I'm not convinced a slightly younger teenager would get "best possible" treatment.
I know little about the Duggars or this particular case (and what I know I don't like), but I completely understand why they may not have believed that "contacting the authorities" would result in the best possible outcomes.
Adult prison as a juvenile, registration on the sex offenders list for the rest of his life, severe restrictions on where he can live and what he can do for the rest of his life, etc. were all possible outcomes.
I concede that I may be guilty of underestimating the harshness of the US system. From a Scottish perspective, both the 14 year old alleged perpetrator and his young alleged victims would have been treated as youngsters in need of treatment, care and protection. What was required for each victim and for the perpetrator would have been considered individually and a judgement reached as to what was in their best interests by an impartial children's hearing. Maybe someone familiar with the Arkansas system could explain if a 14 year old would seriously face jail time.
Posts: 175 | Registered: Feb 2014
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Hiro's Leap
Shipmate
# 12470
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Posted
A 17-year old sentenced to 10 years (without possibility of parole) for consensual oral sex with his 15 year old girlfriend.
I suspect this isn't a typical sentence, but I can understand U.S. parents being scared - especially for more serious charges like those alleged in this case.
Posts: 3418 | From: UK, OK | Registered: Mar 2007
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
There is, in addition, the potential for lifelong listing on a sex offenders list.
Given the range of laws which severely restrict listed sex offenders' choice of jobs, living quarters, leisure activities, and volunteerism, this is no small matter.
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Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
The black and white thinking that is endemic in the theologically conservative community ...
Okay, this is bugging me. I have seen as much black-and-white thinking among my liberal friends (sometimes more) as I have among my conservative friends. Black-and-white thinking is a human problem, not a theologically conservative one.
Spot on. It is more easily processed and assigned cause. High contrast images are easy to resolve. The hazy edge of reality is much less comfortable to view.
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Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Referring to the hand-wringing about "trial by media."
It's not like being a mayor or an actress or something who didn't really want people looking at their personal life. The Duggars begged people to look at their personal lives. They invited cameramen into their home so they could show the entire world their personal lives. It's a little hypocritical to then turn around and complain if the entire world draws conclusions about their personal lives based on what they see in the media. Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind.
[ 31. May 2015, 21:16: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
yes! [crosspost: that yes was to lilbuddha.]
I have no decent knowledge of Arkansas or how conditions are there. But I will say that for my city, I'd go a long way to keep a child out of the social service system--both victims and offender. Keep in mind that they would be facing the possibility of having the victims removed as well--and possibly all children (the concern would be, "What kind of family environment made this possible?"). And not necessarily to a safe or healing environment. Social services and the judicial system can function excellently, or they can be total hellholes. And you don't have any guarantees which you're going to get, nor do you have very much recourse at all if it all goes to hell.
Certainly in the same position I would be seeking megadoses of help for everybody in the family, and safety would be priority one. Yet I would be very much tempted to do it some other way besides handing my nearest and dearest over to the doubtful processes of the state.
The thing I don't get is how anybody with such a skeleton in the closet decides to become media stars. I mean, it's like running for president. Someone's bound to dig up every crime, sin, and disaster that has ever occurred to anybody remotely connected with you, just for the gossip value. Why risk it?
Yet I know people do, all the time (witness our politicians). Just.Don't.Get.It.
[ 31. May 2015, 21:25: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Tulfes
Shipmate
# 18000
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Referring to the hand-wringing about "trial by media."
It's not like being a mayor or an actress or something who didn't really want people looking at their personal life. The Duggars begged people to look at their personal lives. They invited cameramen into their home so they could show the entire world their personal lives. It's a little hypocritical to then turn around and complain if the entire world draws conclusions about their personal lives based on what they see in the media. Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind.
True, but their children, including some of the alleged victims of the alleged abuse, did not give valid consent to the media intrusion. Admittedly some of the older children who are married (and forisfamiliated) have continued to participate in the programme and may therefore be exempt from the previous sentence.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tulfes:
True, but their children, including some of the alleged victims of the alleged abuse, did not give valid consent to the media intrusion.
Raising an interesting question: can parents legitimately invite the world into their homes to show off their children? If so, does their right to thus exploit their children come with veto power over airing negative aspects of their family life?
quote:
Admittedly some of the older children who are married (and forisfamiliated) have continued to participate in the programme and may therefore be exempt from the previous sentence.
Indeed; the alleged perp was head of some organization chartered to make public noise about families -- in large part based on his cred as a Duggar -- so he was hardly trying to retreat from the media spotlight.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
That family's shift to long skirts to keep men's eyes off the crotch has ignored a couple of things.
One, inhibition of movement - OK, she discusses doing housework like women at th ebeginning of the last century, but they weren't wearing hobble skirts. I want to be able to move fast if I want to, and clothing which stops women running has been around for forever. Why?
Two, they don't seem to have spotted that their styles involve V-necked tops, and I sould tell them a few things about where men's eyes go with those. The church youth club put me right off V-necks.
I can't see why trousers with a long top wouldn't be modest enough - doesn't have to be so long it's like shalwar kameez, and they can still be active.
It's to do with control.
The Duggar girls tend to wear knee-length skirts nowadays - certainly even when they wore long skirts, they weren't hobble skirts but normal denim ones. Secondly they and many other fundies regard trousers as inherently male clothing, going by the verse in Deuteronomy.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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