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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: In the beginning...
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
...God created the heaven and the earth (OT)
...was The Word (NT)
And that's where the Keryg bit ends for this discussion - if shippies agree.
Two beginnings, described by authors thousands of years apart, for very different purposes (I know, that's arguable).
But if you are a parent - whether a believer or not, and a child asks you "how did everything begin? How would you start to answer her?
I imagine religious people would want to start with In the beginning God... but don't let me prescribe anything. How much would you say in your first reply? What would be your ultimate purpose, should the child retain her interest (and if she doesn't, you've fallen at the first fence, haven't you?)
I'd really be interested to hear how both believers and non-believers would answer this, and I'm looking for a discussion, not a competition.
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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
Terry Pratchett got it spot on. quote:
In the beginning there was nothing, and it exploded.
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Last ever sig ...
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
The 'was the word' bit is a later interpolation. It does not appear in the earliest MSS.
Getting a bit Kergy.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
The 'was the word' bit is a later interpolation. It does not appear in the earliest MSS.
Getting a bit Kergy.
K.
Are you sure about that?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
The 'was the word' bit is a later interpolation. It does not appear in the earliest MSS.
Getting a bit Kergy.
K.
Are you sure about that?
I've had a look at my John Commentaries, and can't find any mention of this, which would be strange given its importance. Plus, without it, the rest of the Prologue doesn't make sense.
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
In the beginning, God working through (with?) the Word created the heavens and earth.
I don't see a conflict. God spoke our universe into existence: Jesus is the Word of God, through Word came creation.
Some mistakenly think we too can speak and cause creation, that what matters most is the act of speaking.
But as someone said, what matters is not that God SPOKE, but that GOD spoke.
Or put another way, God speaks Jesus and Jesus causes creation. If you speak Jesus - but do you? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
(Just tossing in a bit of un-Keryg.)
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pimple:
But if you are a parent - whether a believer or not, and a child asks you "how did everything begin? How would you start to answer her?
Easy: "The stork brought it. Now eat your broccoli."
Seriously, it depends on the level of understanding of the child. But if the child is of an age to reason, I would go with what I perceive to be the truth: "Nobody knows for sure. The exact mechanism of creation is uncertain, but I believe God created it. Because He loves us. Now eat your broccoli."
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
Does "what do you think?" work? My little girl is on "ba ba da da" right now, so I think I am safe for a few years from this line of questioning. I honestly don't know. I tend not to think that the earth was created in seven literal days (granted, I wasn't there), I have no idea where matter came from or how time comes into existence, so I don't know that I can give a convincing answer either way.
I do want her to know that, even if you don't believe that a creation story happened literally as written, the story still has value and can communicate things that we believe to be true. In particular, I like the values behind the second Genesis creation story, where God molded us and gave us breath, because I want her to know that everyone has value. So that will get some emphasis, probably.
But as for where it all came from? Her feeling is as good as mine.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
God so loved us and wanted us to know we are special that God created us out of stars.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
The 'was the word' bit is a later interpolation. It does not appear in the earliest MSS.
Getting a bit Kergy.
K.
Are you sure about that?
I should have cited a source for that (I'll dig it up at my office). It was perhaps one of those passages where the Greek writing is noticeably different from the rest of that Gospel. I've read in several sources that that passage, amongst others, was probably copied from another source and later interpolated into John. That is based on writing style and language, rather that source materials as I suggested above.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
pimple: ...God created the heaven and the earth (OT)
...was The Word (NT)
If you want to conflicting creation stories in the Bible, there are more obvious candidates.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I always think that 'I don't know' has the virtues of succinctness and honesty. Of course, you can also point to both religious and scientific ideas. Explain the singularity in 30 seconds, starting now.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
I generally opt for:
"In the beginning, God created everything. What we mean by 'beginning' and how he did it is a really interesting story and we're constantly learning more about it."
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
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Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
The 'was the word' bit is a later interpolation. It does not appear in the earliest MSS.
Getting a bit Kergy.
K.
Are you sure about that?
I should have cited a source for that (I'll dig it up at my office). It was perhaps one of those passages where the Greek writing is noticeably different from the rest of that Gospel. I've read in several sources that that passage, amongst others, was probably copied from another source and later interpolated into John. That is based on writing style and language, rather that source materials as I suggested above.
K.
If you mean the entire prologue was perhaps added later, rather than "was the word" specifically, then, yes, some scholars have suggested that. Like a porch added later to a house is one simile used. Don't think there's any MSS evidence though. Stylistic evidence can be very subjective.
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
pimple: ...God created the heaven and the earth (OT)
...was The Word (NT)
If you want to conflicting creation stories in the Bible, there are more obvious candidates.
John 1:1-18 is not a creation story at all, it's a hymn placing Jesus into the creation story as co-actor with God.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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OliviaCA
Shipmate
# 18399
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pimple:
[ In the beginning ] ...God created the heaven and the earth (OT)... [ In the beginning ] ...was The Word (NT). Two beginnings, described by authors thousands of years apart ... if shippies agree.
Probably only about 500 - 600 actually ...
quote:
... But if [ ] a child asks you "how did everything begin? How would you start to answer?
"What do you mean by everything?" I would probably ask.
And if they said that they meant everything they see around them, everything they hear and smell and taste, the world they live in etc I would say that all of that was created by their unimaginably vast and infinitely complex real self, aka God, from the ground up, ( starting with simple dualities like dark and light ), because it is a model/representation ( symbolic version ), made by the brain to track and better organise its attention processes, and that it is possible that human invention of language is what made that model seem so alive/so vivid that the part of our brain responsible for doing the modeling virtually identified with the model of itself ( probably from about the age of 18 mths - 2 years ). I would wonder if they remembered when they still, a little child, referred to them selves in the third person, hadn't yet become immersed in the model.
And if they said "if all this is a model what is it a model of?" I would say "reality or the kingdom of heaven of waves, particles, energy etc, which we perceive as through a glass darkly, with the help of science, and certain "spiritual" practices", and I would have to admit that no one knows how that began, that it might well be eternal for all one really knows.
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Posts: 91 | From: Europe | Registered: May 2015
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I see no reason why both could not be true. I am willing to bet that creating Heaven and Earth was a complex process with many angles. When I begin to write a book, the fingers hit they keyboard. True and accurate. But, when I begin to write a book, I think about the characters and plot. Also perfectly true and accurate.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Brenda Clough: When I begin to write a book, the fingers hit they keyboard. True and accurate. But, when I begin to write a book, I think about the characters and plot. Also perfectly true and accurate.
And if you're good, the characters will take up a life of their own. Which I always liked as a metaphore for Creation.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pimple:
...God created the heaven and the earth (OT)
...was The Word (NT)
Two beginnings, described by authors thousands of years apart, for very different purposes (I know, that's arguable).
a competition.
There's nothing in John that says that it's a creation story. John was simply saying that the Son was at the time of the creation, and that the Son was God. Indeed, if you continue the whole passage down to verse 14 you have in effect the predecessor of the Nicean Creed down to the Incarnation. It's much as Mousethief said in his post at 5.35.
[ 20. June 2015, 08:10: Message edited by: Gee D ]
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
I think that a child who poses the question in the OP already has a level of thinking that would cope with the only true answer that any adult can give and that is, Nobody really knows. From then on, depending on the age of the child, what scientists are reasonably sure about would be introduced along with the fact that this applies until better facts are available. Any response which included God (or god/s) should always be clearly and definitely qualified with words like, 'some people believe that...'
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
And, on the same basis, any response which excludes actively or by mere omission any idea of a creator should be qualified with "some people believe that that is all there is to it".
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
And, on the same basis, any response which excludes actively or by mere omission any idea of a creator should be qualified with "some people believe that that is all there is to it".
Why? I do not think that that is all there is to it; on the contrary, more and more factual information is being acquired - and of course is always subject to challenge.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Ask them what they think. Iterate.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
The theologian in me says that God created the cosmos to dwell in (in Christ). I would try to help a child wonder at the amazing fact that anything that's NOT God should exist - that God, in God's love, made space for not-God, loved it out into existence, and is loving it into union with Godself. A union that's more like marriage, where two become one but are more than the sum of their parts, not a re-absorption of the cosmos into God. Because of the nature of that desired union, God has always given space and freedom to creation, first letting it develop through evolution, and still allowing creatures like us to use our freedom any way we want - but hopefully in ways that bring us closer to God and make us good stewards whatever part of God's creation God entrusts to us. (And, as we humans are "the cosmos looking back on itself," we're a natural point for God the Word to enter creation and effect the beginning of its reunion with God.)
Yeah, I know what you're thinking. You're right. I shouldn't speak to children. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
Yeah, I know what you're thinking. You're right. I shouldn't speak to children.
Quite the contrary. We need more teachers/ leaders/ mentors/ pastors willing to engage children on that level and welcome them into the mystery and wonder of the universe.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jack o' the Green:
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
The 'was the word' bit is a later interpolation. It does not appear in the earliest MSS.
Getting a bit Kergy.
K.
Are you sure about that?
I should have cited a source for that (I'll dig it up at my office). It was perhaps one of those passages where the Greek writing is noticeably different from the rest of that Gospel. I've read in several sources that that passage, amongst others, was probably copied from another source and later interpolated into John. That is based on writing style and language, rather that source materials as I suggested above.
K.
If you mean the entire prologue was perhaps added later, rather than "was the word" specifically, then, yes, some scholars have suggested that. Like a porch added later to a house is one simile used. Don't think there's any MSS evidence though. Stylistic evidence can be very subjective.
But this is vital—this is one of the core passages claiming hat Jesus is a God. It might be a later addition…
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
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Posted
Vital doesn't mean provable though. We may just have to live with the uncertainty. Having said that, I'm not convinced that it (unlike chapter 21) is a later addition. Even if it were, I'm not sure it would make that much difference. Chapter 21 is still counted as extremely significant. Regarding the claims about Jesus, there would still be all the "I am" sayings including "Before Abraham was, I am", the Johannine prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane and Thomas' resurrection response.
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Isn't that patronizing of us? They're already there. And it's precious and innocent. It's not for us to tell them ANYTHING they haven't asked. Anything WE haven't the FAINTEST idea of. Apart from science. ASK them. Ask THEM. Get them to work it out.
[ 20. June 2015, 23:13: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
An news on the source for the assertion that 'In the beginning was the word' is not original?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
And yes, of course, tell that what the Bible says and even what people say it means then ask them what they THINK.
[ 21. June 2015, 12:23: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
And yes, of course, tell that what the Bible says and even what people say it means then ask them what they THINK.
Is it me? I don't understand this sentence.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Tell THEM. It's always me mate.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Tell THEM. It's always me mate.
No, sorry. Still no idea what you're on about.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I always think that 'I don't know' has the virtues of succinctness and honesty. Of course, you can also point to both religious and scientific ideas. Explain the singularity in 30 seconds, starting now.
"…general relativity predicts there to be a point in time at which the temperature, density and curvature of the universe are all infinite, a situation mathematicians call a singularity."
Stephen Hawking and Leonard Mlodinow – The Grand Design
Explaining is the easy bit. "I don't know" is probably still the correct answer to "how did the singularity occur".
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
But this is vital—this is one of the core passages claiming hat Jesus is a God. It might be a later addition.
But what evidence do we have that it was? Merely our hunch that tells us Christians didn't believe Jesus was God when John was writing in about 95-100 AD? I'd say the gospel of John has a lot more weight than any such hunch.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
But this is vital—this is one of the core passages claiming hat Jesus is a God. It might be a later addition.
But what evidence do we have that it was? Merely our hunch that tells us Christians didn't believe Jesus was God when John was writing in about 95-100 AD? I'd say the gospel of John has a lot more weight than any such hunch.
John? What makes you think that someone called John wrote that Gospel? All the early sources are anonymous. It isn't until Irenaeus decided around 180CE that the anonymous Gospel accounts should have names/sources.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Tell THEM. It's always me mate.
No, sorry. Still no idea what you're on about.
It means Martin60 is either a good parent oe a good teacher of children. Probably both.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Tell THEM. It's always me mate.
No, sorry. Still no idea what you're on about.
It means Martin60 is either a good parent oe a good teacher of children. Probably both.
Yes, I've just reread the original sentence and now I understand. Martin60, a couple of commas would have gone a long way in making your sentence comprehensible
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Tell THEM. It's always me mate.
No, sorry. Still no idea what you're on about.
It means Martin60 is either a good parent oe a good teacher of children. Probably both.
Yes, I've just reread the original sentence and now I understand. Martin60, a couple of commas and a word correction would have gone a long way in making your sentence comprehensible
"And yes, of course, tell that (sic) - them - what the Bible says, and even what people say it means, then ask them what they THINK.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
sorry, I quoted my post instead of merely editing it. I think I did that yesterday as well somewhere.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I've always thought that the author of John's Gospel was deliberately echoing the beginning of Genesis for literary and theological effect.
As if he was saying, 'Look, you're familiar with this story which starts "In the beginning ..." now here's another chapter which starts the same way ...'
And God is at the beginning of both - the prime cause, the ultimate source ... 'In the beginning God ...' 'In the beginning was the Word ... and the Word was God ...'
Sure, there's speculation about him turning to Greek philosophy for some kind of concept of the 'Logos' or 'Demiurge' as it were -- and I don't have a particular problem with that. Whoever wrote John's Gospel was writing in a mixed Hebraic/Hellenistic paradigm.
That doesn't obviate the Truth as it is in Jesus, to use an old-fashioned phrase.
'In the beginning God ...' is common to both narratives - the Hebrew Creation story and the way that the early Church understood and framed its narrative of Christ.
That's what has been handed down to us. We can't go 'behind' it to find some kind of Christ of History at variance with the Christ of Faith.
The Christ we have is the One the Church has presented to us - the One who came from the Father, full of grace and truth, the One in whom the fullness of the Godhead dwelt in bodily form ...
I unashamedly take my stand by that. Cut me anywhere and you'll find the Nicene Creed and traditional Trinitarian and Christological theology running through me like a stick of rock.
'This is our faith - we believe in One God, Father , Son and Holy Spirit.'
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
Terry Pratchett got it spot on. quote:
In the beginning there was nothing, and it exploded.
Thank you for my new sig. Simple, subtle, sensible as the Trinity!
I'll answer as many of the later posts as I can, but my home computer has been hacked into, so it will have to be done piecemeal in the library.
By the way, if anyone reading this has criminal knowledge of my predicament, please be assured that I wish you no ill-will. I'd be happy to underwrite your next six months of largactyl, or a nice therapeutic session of colonic irrigation.
[ 26. June 2015, 17:42: Message edited by: pimple ]
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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
In the beginning, God working through (with?) the Word created the heavens and earth.
I don't see a conflict. God spoke our universe into existence: Jesus is the Word of God, through Word came creation.
Some mistakenly think we too can speak and cause creation, that what matters most is the act of speaking.
But as someone said, what matters is not that God SPOKE, but that GOD spoke.
Or put another way, God speaks Jesus and Jesus causes creation. If you speak Jesus - but do you?
(Just tossing in a bit of un-Keryg.)
Not sure I do. Pretty sure I don't speak Belle-Ringer. That doesn't mean it's unintelligible to the rest of the ship - or the world, of course.
[ 26. June 2015, 17:48: Message edited by: pimple ]
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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
Explaining is the easy bit. "I don't know" is probably still the correct answer to "how did the singularity occur".
I would tell her there's always been stuff going on and none of us can comprehend infinity. Religious writers have tried, scientists have tried, but neither can crack the case on their own.
ISTM we are part of a continuum. There's no getting on, there's no getting off. Anyone, young or old, who experiences just the merest glimpse of such a concept can find it tremendously powerful, some may say even dangerous.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
Yes, I've always felt we're part of a continuum, a sort of spiralling merry-go round, as it were.
Which I expect is very childish, uneducated, unscientific. I cannot comprehend time as a dimension, or space/time as an indivisible entity (is it?)
But within the very small confines of my limited knowledge and imagination, I "know" there are some things which are safer to trust than others.
Usually much smaller things than "SCIENCE" or "GOD". I wish I had been more honest in my own answers and said "I don't know" more often, but with the offer of trying to find out with the questioner's co-operation.
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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
I wish I were sharp enough to have noticed it myself, because it's so obvious, but someone else pointed it out:
According to Genesis, God did not create plants and animals directly. What it says (three times, 1:11, 1:20, 1:24) is that God commanded the earth or the waters to bring them forth. 1:21: "So [i.e. in this manner] God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves..."
Doesn't this wording actually leave the door wide open to accepting an evolutionary explanation?
You can tell I'm an American. ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif) In most parts of the world, creationism isn't even an issue.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
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Posted
Yes, that's a good point. As the Anglican Bishop Richard Harris said; "God makes the world make itself." The Anglican Priest John Maccquirrie talks about God as "Being itself" which "Lets be" i.e. which gives (loans?) being to creation and allows it the freedom to develop and change and have some autonomy. God in these views isn't Paley's detached watchmaker. This allows for evolution and the 'freedom' for suffering and wrong turns which evolution entails.
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
God is in Evolution does it for me.
Indeed when such phrases are used the contention usually begins. I always preferred free-thinking. However when dealing with something incomprehensible maybe seeking guidance from a source greater than ourselves is the wiser choice.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
If your kids are very precocious, you might introduce them to the idea that there was no beginning or cause. Maybe not, first I have to understand that myself!
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
But this is vital—this is one of the core passages claiming hat Jesus is a God. It might be a later addition.
But what evidence do we have that it was? Merely our hunch that tells us Christians didn't believe Jesus was God when John was writing in about 95-100 AD? I'd say the gospel of John has a lot more weight than any such hunch.
I agree. I'm sure that nearly all followers of Jesus believed he was (a) God by the time John was written.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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