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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Difference between CofE & RC for your average bloke in the pew
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Amir Emrra
Apprentice
# 18100
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Posted
Hello, I’m not a regular contributor to anything, I know, but I’d appreciate your indulgence of this fragile, fringe member. I am earnestly considering moving from Anglo- to Roman Catholicism. Being between churches, indeed, maybe even post-church, I have no-one to really challenge and inform my thinking, so would you please do the honours?
Warning: I do not want this to be a CofE-bashing thread. Yes, there is clearly implied criticism of the CofE in the questions I pose below but it is borne of my personal, reasonably wide, experience. If your experience differs - good for you; just please don't try to convince me that "it's all in me 'ead". Yes, I am still very angry and very, very hurt but that’s personal stuff which I am working through and am not going to offload here, so please don’t tempt me! Suffice to say that my recent experience of the CofE diocesan/parish system has been an exceptionally nasty one, and there is absolutely no prospect of me ever again darkening the threshold of a CofE parish church or cathedral. That shi*‘s been flushed. Time to move on.
But move on to what? While I have been, until now, comfortably Anglo-Catholic, what I had thought would be a simple tweak to that adjective's pre-modifier is suddenly giving me the willies. Is this a final vestige of prejudice from my long-gone charo-evo days? Surely not! Or an understandable fear of getting shafted again? Maybe. I don’t know.
So over to you. Here are the questions vexing me - chose one from:
- Is bullying as endemic? (bullying by both priests and parishioners)
- Is parish politics as crippling to Mission?
- Is there reasonable discernment and veto over lay-appointments?
- Am I correct in my perception that Roman parish priests have meaningful authority in the parish? Or at least prepared to exercise it?
- Are priests generally more trustworthy?
- Are priests generally less obtuse?
- What are the prospects of getting ensnared in Lotus-Eater parishes?
- Will I be able to serve in some meaningful way outside of ordained ministry? (pastoral rather than admin)
- Is there prejudice against the middle-aged when applying to serve?
- What else might you say that I need to know?
Thanks, Amir
Posts: 37 | From: UK | Registered: May 2014
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amir Emrra:
- Is bullying as endemic? (bullying by both priests and parishioners)
I don't really know what "bullying" means here? I've not felt bullied in any of the multiple RC parishes I've been part of, by priests or anybody else. My standard RC experience is more "supermarket": being one "customer" among many others, being mostly ignored in the expectation that one will get on with one's business, and being politely dealt with if one pipes up over some problem.
quote:
Originally posted by Amir Emrra:
- Is parish politics as crippling to Mission?
I've not been to a RC place with strong "mission", if you mean by that the bringing in and converting of outsiders. I don't think that has much to do with "parish politics" though. The RCs I know just aren't particularly pushy about their faith... It would take stellar parish politics to get them going, really.
quote:
Originally posted by Amir Emrra:
- Is there reasonable discernment and veto over lay-appointments?
Probably not. Mostly I would expect that if you raise your hand you will get the "job". In fact, if you appear keen - i.e., show up early to mass and do not rush out ASAP after - "jobs" will probably end up finding you at an alarming rate...
quote:
Originally posted by Amir Emrra:
- Am I correct in my perception that Roman parish priests have meaningful authority in the parish? Or at least prepared to exercise it?
Sure. The priest is the "boss". Just how much time and willpower he might find to micromanage things is a different question.
quote:
Originally posted by Amir Emrra:
- Are priests generally more trustworthy?
I don't know about "more", but the RC priests I have met certainly were trustworthy.
quote:
Originally posted by Amir Emrra:
- Are priests generally less obtuse?
Most RC priests are above average acute, I would say.
quote:
Originally posted by Amir Emrra:
- What are the prospects of getting ensnared in Lotus-Eater parishes?
I have no idea what that means. Sound exciting though, like some kind of kung fu movie.
quote:
Originally posted by Amir Emrra:
- Will I be able to serve in some meaningful way outside of ordained ministry? (pastoral rather than admin)
Sure.
quote:
Originally posted by Amir Emrra:
- Is there prejudice against the middle-aged when applying to serve?
Not really, no.The best age for serving is generally "currently available".
quote:
Originally posted by Amir Emrra:
- What else might you say that I need to know?
Your questions seem ... tense. Chill. If you want to find out what RCs are like, just hang out with them. But expect to be largely ignored unless you engage first.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Well, it sounds like the best idea is to start attending RC churches in your area and talk to their blokes in the pews to get a sense of what you might expect.
Keep in mind that you may run into jerks in any church situation. I doubt that your experiences in the CoE were "all in your head", but crossing the Tiber might not be the cure-all for escaping obnoxious Christians. They're everywhere ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif) along with lots of kind, delightful people.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I'm envious of the LACK of Evangelicalism and worse in the RCC I must admit. I know from experience I'd fit in just fine.
I felt another lack on Friday, significant numbers of our guests at the soup kitchen are RC and need an immediate pastoral, confessional response. I tell them to go to confession, but they are alienated and in extremis.
Hmmm. I'm going to HAVE to go and talk to a priest aren't I!
And an Imam ...
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
You've obviously had a bad experience, but it would be unfair to tar the entire CofE with the same brush. While there may be parishes that behave in the way you've described, there are others that don't. The same thing would also apply not just to the Roman Catholic Church, but to every other Christian denomination.
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
To be honest,I'm not even sure if it's a good idea to switch denominations when you're in this state of mind. It doesn't always end well. There's something to be said for waiting until you've calmed down a bit.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Amir Emrra
I was rather shocked to read your initial post, but I'll give you my two-pennorth in response to your questions.
- Is bullying as endemic? (bullying by both priests and parishioners) Can be, depends on the parish – just like in the CofE or any other large organisation.
- Is parish politics as crippling to Mission? Is it, really? Your description may also apply to an RC place because it is likely to be subjective.
- Is there reasonable discernment and veto over lay-appointments? Definitely veto, not sure about reasonable discernment – and how is anyone supposed to measure that anyway? Again, purely subjective.
- Am I correct in my perception that Roman parish priests have meaningful authority in the parish? They have total authority right up until they annoy the bishop who can move them at, literally, a moment’s notice.
Or at least prepared to exercise it?Depends on the man, doesn’t it?
- Are priests generally more trustworthy?Than what or whom? They’re human so likely to have the same frailties as the rest of us.
- Are priests generally less obtuse? Not in my experience – and I worked with them on a day-to-day basis for years.
- What are the prospects of getting ensnared in Lotus-Eater parishes? What the hell is a ‘lotus-eater parish’?
- Will I be able to serve in some meaningful way outside of ordained ministry? (pastoral rather than admin)Unlikely until you’ve been around for some time; certainly not straight away as a ‘convert’.
- Is there prejudice against the middle-aged when applying to serve?Serve in what capacity? Again, it depends on the priest and parish – just like in the CofE.
- What else might you say that I need to know?That you shouldn’t be approaching the question of ‘becoming a Roman Catholic’ on the basis of a checklist of barely disguised annoyances with your present status in a CofE parish.
I’m sorry if that sounds harsh but surely the only reason for anyone to be considering becoming a Roman Catholic is if they are convinced about the various doctrines they will have to sign up to, are prepared to accept the primacy of the pope – and effectively agree that their Christian experience up to now has been false. You’re going to be saying that you accept that, apart from Baptism (and even that won’t be accepted in some RC circles) every single experience of holy communion has been meaningless; fine if that is really what you think but is it?
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
You’re going to be saying that you accept that, apart from Baptism (and even that won’t be accepted in some RC circles) every single experience of holy communion has been meaningless; fine if that is really what you think but is it?
Let's be clear: this is bullshit. Becoming RC does not entail making that kind of statement. What it would entail is agreeing that only RC priests (and most non-RC Eastern Orthodox priests, and perhaps some odd cases...) are guaranteed to be able to turn bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus Christ by sacramental consecration. It does not follow at all that a mass operating without such guarantee is religiously "meaningless" in a personal sense, indeed, it does not follow at all that it is empty of actual Divine grace.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
FWIW, I think the crap stuff happens anywhere and everywhere. I can understand your reticence and wish to avoid being 'shafted' again ...
I think that's a common reaction and one that isn't exclusively felt by people who've had charismatic evangelical backgrounds in the dim and distant as you say you've done ...
I think it does make it harder for people to settle down though. I've sometimes been seen as someone who wouldn't comfortably fit in anywhere - but I think my tolerance level is far higher than it might appear in conversation or online.
I s'pose my take would be that you wouldn't find the same problems within the RC or with the Orthodox or Copts or whatever else - but a whole different set of problems. Swings and roundabouts.
I agree with the posters who say that if you are going to cross the Tiber, do so because you see something over there that you like and admire and want to explore - not because you want to get away from whatever it is that bugs you on this side of the bank.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Obviously you are feeling very badly hurt after an experience in your church. Can I take what others have said a step further and say that this is exactly not the time to be thinking of changing. You need to be in a much better frame of mind than you are at the moment.
When that time comes, look at the list you have set out and consider if from time to time instances of bullying may occur in any institution; in a similar frame of mind work through your list. You need to look carefully at some of your questions and try to reframe them in a less subjective manner.
Having done that, ask what yourself it is that has kept you from making the change in the past. There are probably some RC doctrines to which up to now you have been unable adhere. Ask yourself if you now are sincerely able to subscribe to them. Remember that the Catholic Church is less accepting or tolerating of dissent than any Anglican church I know of, where rejoicing in the differences which bind us together is a way of life for many.
Finally, remember that it's pretty unlikely that someone newly received into any church will be "invited to serve" until they have shown a real commitment, something which may take some years particularly if the serving rosters are full.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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jacobsen
seeker
# 14998
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Posted
In other words, are you running away from, or towards?
As a cradle Catholic who did a kind of denominational drift into the CoE I would agree with the people who have responded so far. It all depends on who is running the show and the kind of people they, and the parishioners, are.
The last time I was involved in "mission" it was as a pupil in a nun-run prep school in the '50s, and we were collecting for funds to baptise "black babies."
Times change.
Also, what is a lotus-eating parish, and can I join?
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But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.
Posts: 8040 | From: Æbleskiver country | Registered: Aug 2009
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
If we trust in God, surely we go to whichever church we are led to by the Holy Spirit, knowing that the people there will not be perfect - but then, neither are we!
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
All that said, I do think your average RC suck is probably different from your average Anglican suck - in particular also from your average Anglo-Catholic suck. I'm not sure that hunting for the suck one is bothered by least is the best reason for choosing a Church. But it certainly is not the worst reason either...
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
CofE suck = RC suck + tea and cake
Hmm, I'd go for that.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
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Posted
Two years ago I had a very horrible experience in my former church; very, very bad. It should have been a matter of a quick apology and then everyone could have moved on, but of course the CofE does not work that way.
Now I am far wiser, and very disillusioned indeed. What has prevented me leaving completely is my present Vicar. I met him within days of the nastiness, and he helped me practically and emotionally. He has been very patient and very kind. He too has tried to prompt the church to act; he too gets ignored.
Fast forward through countless emails and letters and I am still waiting for the Church to have the grace to admit that something went badly wrong and to apologise because it would help me to know that they understand what has happened. I have concluded that it is incapable of doing so; somehow the words stick in their throats and they cannot do it.
I thought of Rome. I thought of Orthodoxy. But there is a problem with both of these; I am an Anglican; rather higher than my present church and so a bit of a fish out of water, but nonetheless an Anglican. I do not know how to be Catholic.
I think what I am trying to say is, why should you change who you are? If you and I can see that something is wrong then we really ought to try to put it right, if we can. Or at least to try.
In the meantime I think if I were you and honestly could not face a CofE church (and I can completely understand that) I think I would take refuge with the Methodists for a while, just to give myself time to think.
Posts: 585 | Registered: Jul 2012
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Shoulda posted this here.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Humble Servant
Shipmate
# 18391
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Posted
I am in a similar position to the OP, except my disillusionment with the CofE is not personal, but rather just disappointment. This organisation is dying because it doesn’t live. Most parishes I’ve visited consist of a collection of elderly people who are desperate that nothing must change before their funeral – after which they won’t care. (Exceptions abound of course, but that’s my overall impression of this church). My recent move to a new-town, which was formed almost half a century ago, and finding the CofE still treats the place like the collection of villages it was in the 1950s has not helped. Suffice it to say that the dear old CofE neither recognises the need to change nor understands the process involved in changing.
Add to this the fact that the church is headed by our monarch head of state. That can’t be right! It goes against everything a church should be. Never mind the bishops in the House of Lords – what about the lords in the house of Bishops for Christ’s sake?
So I can’t stay with this. (I’ve vaguely considered spending a year with a local “successful” CofE parish, but that mean bowing the God of PSA, and putting the mass on a back burner. I find those things very hard to stomach – I even found myself recoiling at the fact they don’t use the lectionary in a CofE parish.)
My worry is that I’ll find in the RC church even more of the same objections. Replace the Queen with the Pope and everything else stays the same. At least it’s an international church, but perhaps the veneer of English respectability will be just as thick. I’m thinking of Father Brown here – is his parish typical?
The other option is the Orthodox or course, but for me that means a car journey every Sunday. I found them just a bit too, err, different in their style of worship, though perhaps I’d get the hang of it after a while.
(I thought about the Methodists too, but the words “baby” and “bath water” just seem too apt. All the worst bits of the CofE with none of the redeeming features.)
I’m still not sure where to go with this. BCP worship in a country church on Sunday was as uplifting as it was painful. I desperately need the religion, but can’t face the church. I think a lot of repentance and prayer are needed (by me, I mean) before I decide which mast to nail my colours to.
Posts: 241 | Registered: Apr 2015
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Humble Servant
Shipmate
# 18391
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Posted
Sorry Amir. You said not make this a CofE bashing thread. I seem to have fallen into that trap. I do apologise. I hope the tread can get back on course.
Posts: 241 | Registered: Apr 2015
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Humble Servant - admittedly I giggled at your comment on Methodism, but it might be a little harsh!
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
It's funny, but I react when non-Anglicans or former Anglicans tend to have a go at the CofE but I don't get in the least bit bothered when people who are currently Anglican have a go at it.
I don't know why that should be ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Humble Servant:
My worry is that I’ll find in the RC church even more of the same objections. Replace the Queen with the Pope and everything else stays the same. At least it’s an international church, but perhaps the veneer of English respectability will be just as thick. I’m thinking of Father Brown here – is his parish typical?
Dunno. In my parish in Reading, I would say about 30-40% of the faces at mass are African, South American or Asian, and 70-80% of the altar servers (kids) are. I suspect a number of the remaining "white" faces are of Polish persuasion, by virtue of me not understanding their Slavic sounding chatter. I'm originally German myself, of course, and in mixed marriage to an Asian. So I expect any English veneer still remaining in parishes like mine is going to go the way of the Dodo rather rapidly... Probably the English English are still in a majority. Just.
I don't remember what Father Brown's parish was like in the stories. But I expect that it was a caricature even in Chesterton's days, and Chesterton has been dead for almost eighty years now.
Anyway, I don't get all the "ifs" and "buts". Just go and check the local RCs out, if you are interested. Visiting RC masses is really very painless, since nobody pays any attention to you unless you work hard at getting some. Maybe there are some ultra-small RC parishes out there where you would get approached the first time. But I have never been, and I have been to small RC places all over the world. People just assume (correctly for the most part) that you are a RC from somewhere else, who is currently on the road. And frankly, small parishes are disappearing rapidly at least in the West as they get chucked together into ever bigger units to become "viable".
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
CofE suck = RC suck + tea and cake
Hmm, I'd go for that.
RC suck = CofE suck - (tea and cake) + (Polish/Italian/Mexican food) + beer
Hmm, I'd go for that.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
It depends on which end of the CofE you're talking about ... at the more 'Carthlick' end it's lace and gin not tea and cake ...
As for beer ... well, not Mexican beer, thank you very much - it doesn't taste of anything and is just there to quench the chillis ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Amir Emrra
Apprentice
# 18100
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
You've obviously had a bad experience, but it would be unfair to tar the entire CofE with the same brush.
As I said, if you are happy then good for you. I don't mean to tar liberally, but in my non-scientific survey, 10/14 priests & diocesan officals were on the incompetent spectrum. I'd confidently extrapolate that line quite far given the experiences of other acquaintances of mine.
Notable, all A-C priests were true ikons for me. Pity I don't live anywhere near an A-C parish.
Posts: 37 | From: UK | Registered: May 2014
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Amir Emrra
Apprentice
# 18100
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Amir Emrra:
- What else might you say that I need to know?
Your questions seem ... tense. Chill. If you want to find out what RCs are like, just hang out with them. But expect to be largely ignored unless you engage first. [/QB]
Well discerned, sir. That's the thing, I find myself with some irrational prejudice. That's what I'm trying to deal with.
Posts: 37 | From: UK | Registered: May 2014
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Amir Emrra
Apprentice
# 18100
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
To be honest,I'm not even sure if it's a good idea to switch denominations when you're in this state of mind. It doesn't always end well. There's something to be said for waiting until you've calmed down a bit.
I know, I know. Others have advised me thus privately. Thing is it's been a long, slow car-crash - slow-mo, life-before-your-eyes stuff. I saw it coming but hoped all along that I was wrong. So, I've had quite a lot of time to process it. The problem is that several key players have refused all conciliation or arbitration; forgiveness for them will come very slowly, if at all. I cannot afford to live out my faith alone for such a long time.
Posts: 37 | From: UK | Registered: May 2014
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Amir Emrra
Apprentice
# 18100
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
In exploring the wider question raised in your OP, you may find the Ignatian wisdom about consolation and desolation helpful. [/QB]
Good link. Thanks.
Posts: 37 | From: UK | Registered: May 2014
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Amir Emrra
Apprentice
# 18100
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Amir Emrra
I was rather shocked to read your initial post, but I'll give you my two-pennorth in response to your questions.
- What else might you say that I need to know?That you shouldn’t be approaching the question of ‘becoming a Roman Catholic’ on the basis of a checklist of barely disguised annoyances with your present status in a CofE parish.
I’m sorry if that sounds harsh but surely the only reason for anyone to be considering becoming a Roman Catholic is if they are convinced about the various doctrines they will have to sign up to, are prepared to accept the primacy of the pope – and effectively agree that their Christian experience up to now has been false. You’re going to be saying that you accept that, apart from Baptism (and even that won’t be accepted in some RC circles) every single experience of holy communion has been meaningless; fine if that is really what you think but is it?
No problem L'Organist. I'm perfectly open to a grounding slap across the face, en agape!
Should have explained - these are far from my only criteria. My theology is largely congruent with Rome anyway. I see my move as looking to different leadership more than anything. I will not be renouncing any aspect of my spiritual journey. These questions are more to do with praxis, and a strong dose of self-preservation.
Posts: 37 | From: UK | Registered: May 2014
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Amir Emrra
Apprentice
# 18100
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I agree with the posters who say that if you are going to cross the Tiber, do so because you see something over there that you like and admire and want to explore - not because you want to get away from whatever it is that bugs you on this side of the bank. [/QB]
Agreed. I do so admire, at least at a high level from outside. My history makes me wary of the detail though, that's what I cannot easily see. Admittedly, with a functional A-C parish nearby I would not be considering it at all. But I don't have that luxury, and I am not welcome in/am frustrated with local parishes. Actually, I really resent being put in this situation in the first place, having to shake the dust off my feet at an unwelcoming home. You and others are correct - it's a crappy motive for considering changing church but, in the face of continual abuse, it is not essentially wrong.
Posts: 37 | From: UK | Registered: May 2014
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Sounds like you might feel at home in th ordinariate of our lady of walsingham.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Amir Emrra
Apprentice
# 18100
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jacobsen:
The last time I was involved in "mission" it was as a pupil in a nun-run prep school in the '50s, and we were collecting for funds to baptise "black babies."
I just mean mission in the general sense - evangelism, spiritual formation, catechesis, pastoral care, social justice etc.
I would describe a church of faith without works as a lotus-eating parish.
and can I join? [/QUOTE]
If you pour good tea, bake good cake, and only be seen on a Sunday, then I'm sure there'd be a place for you ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 37 | From: UK | Registered: May 2014
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Amir Emrra
Apprentice
# 18100
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Sounds like you might feel at home in th ordinariate of our lady of walsingham.
Possibly, but there's nothing within 30 miles.
Posts: 37 | From: UK | Registered: May 2014
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Amir Emrra
Apprentice
# 18100
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
All that said, I do think your average RC suck is probably different from your average Anglican suck - in particular also from your average Anglo-Catholic suck. I'm not sure that hunting for the suck one is bothered by least is the best reason for choosing a Church. But it certainly is not the worst reason either...
I refer the honourable Shipmate to my earlier reply on being forced into this corner. I am actually looking for somewhere that is safe and where I can thrive. I'm not just looking pessimistically for the minimum-suck environment.
Posts: 37 | From: UK | Registered: May 2014
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Amir Emrra
Apprentice
# 18100
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:
I think what I am trying to say is, why should you change who you are? If you and I can see that something is wrong then we really ought to try to put it right, if we can. Or at least to try.
In the meantime I think if I were you and honestly could not face a CofE church (and I can completely understand that) I think I would take refuge with the Methodists for a while, just to give myself time to think. [/QB]
As with your situation, I know that it will never be put right. God knows I've tried. Thankfully, I have found a safe (most of the time), non-parish refuge.
Posts: 37 | From: UK | Registered: May 2014
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
It depends on which end of the CofE you're talking about ... at the more 'Carthlick' end it's lace and gin not tea and cake ...
As for beer ... well, not Mexican beer, thank you very much - it doesn't taste of anything and is just there to quench the chillis ...
Deeply Catholic Bavarians know a thing or two about beer, as do Belgian Trappists...
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amir Emrra:
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
You've obviously had a bad experience, but it would be unfair to tar the entire CofE with the same brush.
As I said, if you are happy then good for you. I don't mean to tar liberally, but in my non-scientific survey, 10/14 priests & diocesan officals were on the incompetent spectrum. I'd confidently extrapolate that line quite far given the experiences of other acquaintances of mine.
Notable, all A-C priests were true ikons for me. Pity I don't live anywhere near an A-C parish.
Where generally are you located?
I do sympathise with your quandry, and have nothing useful to add but I hope you find a place of spiritual rest soon ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
May I gently suggest that visiting a religious order (Anglican or Catholic, though I have no personal experience of the Catholic ones but I'm sure Shippies do) for a time of retreat and spiritual refreshment may help? The Anglican ones at least are pretty well spread-out across the country with the exception of perhaps the north-west.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
A church that will be safe where you can thrive, for an AC on the outs with the local non-AC CofE, for whom AC priests are icons but the non-AC CofE priests are largely incompetent...
I think finding what you want in the RC church will depend partly on the particular RC church you find yourself at. A lot of it may depend on exactly why you have found AC good, non-AC bad within the CofE. Roman Catholics share some things with Anglo-Catholics, but differ on other things, hence the Ordinariate.
Is there a reason why you wouldn't just go along to an RC church near you and find out what it's like?
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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crunt
Shipmate
# 1321
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Posted
To the OP
I think that the difference between CofE and RC for your average bloke in the pew is that when the average pew-dweller in a CofE church has a disagreeable or unpleasant experience at church, he is likely to vote with his feet and park himself on another pew in another of the town's CofE churches. The average pew-dweller in an RC church who suffers a similarly disagreeable situation is less likely to trundle off to another RC church in the town, and more likely to just stay put and maybe 'offer it up' as he fulfills his religious obligation.
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QUIZ: Bible
QUIZ: world religions
LTL Discussion
languagespider.com
Posts: 269 | From: Up country in the middle of Malaysia | Registered: Sep 2001
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
Come to an Irish RC parish, no one will take any notice of you and you'll never hear any decent music again.
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
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Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amir Emrra:
As with your situation, I know that it will never be put right. God knows I've tried. Thankfully, I have found a safe (most of the time), non-parish refuge.
Yes, mine is safe most of the time too. Not all of the time, sadly.
I am very sorry for what happened to you; I don't know if it was anything like my situation at all, but I know the potential for harm is immense. And that the church seems oblivious to this.
[ 30. June 2015, 08:32: Message edited by: Anglo Catholic Relict ]
Posts: 585 | Registered: Jul 2012
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jacobsen:
It all depends on who is running the show and the kind of people they, and the parishioners, are.
I'd re-iterate the above, the OP seems to be trying to seek an institutional solution to a human problem.
Crossing over for anything other than conviction seems a little pointless to me - neither side guarentees you'll never encounter a dysfunctional parish again.
[ 30. June 2015, 08:51: Message edited by: chris stiles ]
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yes, the Belgian Trappists and the Catholic Bavarians do know a thing or two about beer ...
And of course -
'Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine,
There's music and laughter and good red wine.
Wherever I travel I find it so,
Benedicamus Domino'.
(quoted from memory so excuse any faux-pas)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Vidi Aquam
Apprentice
# 18433
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Posted
I don't think most ACs would be comfortable in a typical Novus Ordo RCC. They tend to be VERY low church. Your best bet would be to find a non CofE AC parish if there's one near you. Or a RCC that has the Traditional Latin Mass. Or an Old Catholic Church. There are 100s of groups that have the traditional Mass in Latin or English, many not affiliated with any mainline denomination. There may be one near you. Try google.
Posts: 33 | From: Los Angeles | Registered: Jun 2015
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
There is absolutely no point in crossing over to the RC church unless you find that you can accept that the RC church is what it claims to be.
Look at and read the catechism and above all do not listen to what non-RCs say about what the RC church says about non-RCs- most of what is said from the outside is simply not true.
Don't expect to find perfection within the RC church - you will only get that in Heaven.
However,as many people have said no one ,in general, will bother you within any given church.
In fact you may feel ignored.In general again RCs go to church to speak to God and to listen to His Word as well as to receive His sacraments. Anything else is incidental,though that is not to say it is not important.
Amongst themselves RCs in UK (being for a long time a somewhat persecuted minority) have close (and sometimes closed) ties of kinship. Although people in RC churches may appear to ignore one another ,they often know almost everything about everyone else with any link to Catholicism.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
It depends on which end of the CofE you're talking about ... at the more 'Carthlick' end it's lace and gin not tea and cake ...
As for beer ... well, not Mexican beer, thank you very much - it doesn't taste of anything and is just there to quench the chillis ...
Deeply Catholic Bavarians know a thing or two about beer, as do Belgian Trappists...
OTOH
this beer has, curiously enough, a Methodist inspiration- a reminder that there was a time when temperance meant just that, rather than total abstention.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
From the mid 19 century, temperance did mean complete abstinence from alcohol (teetotalism).
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yes, I've supped the Reverend James a number of times - I'm not that taken with it, to be honest - compared with other beers from the Brains stable.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
But not earlier in the century, when the Revd Mr Buckley was brewing beer and exercising his ministry in Carmarthenshire. AIUI beer was promoted as a better alternative to spirits.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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