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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Questions about prayer
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riotgrrrl
Apprentice
# 18437
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Posted
I'm new so apologies if this isn't in the right place!
I have a question about prayer. I pray in terms of having a conversation with God daily and have started incorporating morning prayers from the Book of Common Prayer into my daily practice as well. I will often seek advice and guidance from God, however I'm confused by the concept of asking for specific things- I see a lot of "prayer requests" for things like exams and job interviews and even people who keep lists of things to pray for. I have two main queries-
1. How does this interact with the concept of free will?
Most prayer requests involve other people- for example, a successful job interview depends on the interviewer, praying for the safety of a missionary in the Middle East depends on militants in the area. If God has given us all free will, surely there's nothing He can do to stop an interviewer from turning you down, or a soldier from shooting you? And if everything is predestined, surely it's already decided and praying is pointless?
2. This is harder to describe, but it strikes me as... arrogant somehow? Why would someone as wise and all-knowing as God take our wishes and opinions into account? I can't see him going "well, I was going to kill off this person with cancer, but since she's got so many people praying for her, I guess I'll send it into remission". Plus the idea seems to be that the more people you have praying for you, the better, when surely it's the lonely and desolate, who have no-one praying for them, who most need God's love?
Basically, I understand prayer for adoration and communication with God, but I really don't understand asking for things.
Posts: 7 | Registered: Jul 2015
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
I would say that I don't fully understand asking for things either.
On the other hand it is specifically commended to us by Jesus quote:
‘Pray then in this way:
Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And do not bring us to the time of trial,
but rescue us from the evil one.
and it is not just about 'spiritual things that Jesus says quote:
‘Ask, and it will be given to you; search, and you will find; knock, and the door will be opened for you. For everyone who asks receives, and everyone who searches finds, and for everyone who knocks, the door will be opened. Is there anyone among you who, if your child asks for bread, will give a stone? Or if the child asks for a fish, will give a snake? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask him!
So, without fully understanding, I go on asking.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Arch Anglo Catholic
Shipmate
# 15181
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Posted
Perhaps, as wiser men than I have said, the purpose of prayer is not to change God's mind about us, for God is unchanging, but more to help us change our hearts and minds about God, and to conform to Him.
Then, when we become closer to God in mind, heart and will, what we seek, will be what God seeks, and that will be done.
Posts: 144 | From: Shropshire | Registered: Sep 2009
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riotgrrrl
Apprentice
# 18437
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Posted
quote:
‘Ask, and it will be given to you; search, and you will find; knock, and the door will be opened for you. For everyone who asks receives, and everyone who searches finds, and for everyone who knocks, the door will be opened. Is there anyone among you who, if your child asks for bread, will give a stone? Or if the child asks for a fish, will give a snake? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask him!
Does this necessarily refer to non-spiritual things though? Isn't it possible that the bread/fish/gift is salvation, the presence of the Holy Spirit, and God's love- which of course if we ask for, we are sure to receive. The items referenced, like bread, are essentials- the child isn't asking for toys or games, just enough to survive on. I don't see how this translates into having prayer chains for job interviews?
Posts: 7 | Registered: Jul 2015
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
well, the way it's been explained to me is that wrt to free will there is really only one choice - whether we act and think according to divine order/will, or whether we don;t (and the latter essentially means we are affected by evil)
And the Earth is supposed to be an abundant place for us - i.e. God has provided for us. So once we give up evil (which includes any feelings or thought of it not being abundant for either ourselves or for others) then provided that what we are asking for fits into in the divine plan (and I think there's a lot of leeway here), then the prayer is answered.
The main objection to this that I've seen i that people say "oh but what about all those people dying...?" - but as the world is at the moment, we arrive, we have a life from ..to... and we have no idea when that "to" falls - be it after a few minutes or 120 years, and we have no idea of the bigger picture this is all happening in. I find this makes more sense if I assume that there is some form of reincarnation, and we don't just have one life to return completely to God or not. Without more than one life, 99..9% of humanity would not do very well at all, and God wants everyone to return to Him.
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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riotgrrrl
Apprentice
# 18437
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
well, the way it's been explained to me is that wrt to free will there is really only one choice - whether we act and think according to divine order/will, or whether we don;t (and the latter essentially means we are affected by evil)
And the Earth is supposed to be an abundant place for us - i.e. God has provided for us. So once we give up evil (which includes any feelings or thought of it not being abundant for either ourselves or for others) then provided that what we are asking for fits into in the divine plan (and I think there's a lot of leeway here), then the prayer is answered.
The main objection to this that I've seen i that people say "oh but what about all those people dying...?" - but as the world is at the moment, we arrive, we have a life from ..to... and we have no idea when that "to" falls - be it after a few minutes or 120 years, and we have no idea of the bigger picture this is all happening in. I find this makes more sense if I assume that there is some form of reincarnation, and we don't just have one life to return completely to God or not. Without more than one life, 99..9% of humanity would not do very well at all, and God wants everyone to return to Him.
But HOW is it answered? If we stick with the example of the job interview. I pray for it, as does my "prayer circle", but it's dependent on the selection committee, who presumably have free will and may or may not act according to "divine will". Is God supposed to reach in and change their minds? What if the other candidates are praying equally hard? How can a divine plan have leeway?
Posts: 7 | Registered: Jul 2015
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
T usually think that I should give thanks when I pray and ask for aid in becoming better and wiser. (There's more, but that's a large part of it.)
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
God foresaw your prayers in eternity past and ordained the outcome of some events according to the counsel of his will but with those very prayers in mind. Prayers don't affect reality at from the point of their utterance onwards, the prayers of the saints have affected God's sovereign rule over reality from before the beginning of time.
[ 09. July 2015, 15:58: Message edited by: daronmedway ]
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
My mother and a friend went as witnesses to court in a case where they would be facing an evil* man and his legal team. They prayed beforehand, and there was a circle in the village praying for them. They were aware of being upheld, and were able to hold firm in the face of opposition, and the matter before the court was settled in favour of the right. My mother was convinced that the prayer had been vitally important in their being able to give evidence effectively.
*I don't often use this word. It was, in this case, appropriate of the actions of the man, and of his words, and of his mother who supported him.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by riotgrrrl:
1. How does this interact with the concept of free will?
I think that this is a really good question, and one that a lot of people (not just Christians) fail to address.
Prayer - ISTM - is not about twisting God's arm. Nor is it about getting God to twist other people's arms.
To be honest, the longer I am a Christian, the less inclined I am to ask God to step in and change things. Quite apart from anything else, in some 40 years of praying, and seeing others pray, I can't say that I have seen any significant sign that "God answers prayer" in the simplistic way it is often presented.
But would I pray for someone's job interview? Yes. Not that God would help them get the job, but lifting them and their concerns into God's loving hands.
I know that I have quoted this before, but one of the most helpful (to me, anyway) quotes on praying comes from Archbishop Michael Ramsey. He describes prayer as “the act of being in God’s presence” and goes on:
quote:
"To be with God for a space. To be with God wondering, that is adoration. To be with God gratefully, that is thanksgiving. To be with God ashamed, that is contrition. To be with God with others on the heart, that is intercession."
I have found this really helpful in how I approach praying.
quote:
Originally posted by riotgrrrl:
2. This is harder to describe, but it strikes me as... arrogant somehow? Why would someone as wise and all-knowing as God take our wishes and opinions into account? I can't see him going "well, I was going to kill off this person with cancer, but since she's got so many people praying for her, I guess I'll send it into remission". Plus the idea seems to be that the more people you have praying for you, the better, when surely it's the lonely and desolate, who have no-one praying for them, who most need God's love?
Again, a good point and one which undermines a lot of commonly held presumptions about prayer. It's not about how much "faith" I or anyone else has; and it's not about how many people you get praying; and it's not about how long I pray or whether I have used the "right" words.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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riotgrrrl
Apprentice
# 18437
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
quote:
Originally posted by riotgrrrl:
1. How does this interact with the concept of free will?
I think that this is a really good question, and one that a lot of people (not just Christians) fail to address.
Prayer - ISTM - is not about twisting God's arm. Nor is it about getting God to twist other people's arms.
To be honest, the longer I am a Christian, the less inclined I am to ask God to step in and change things. Quite apart from anything else, in some 40 years of praying, and seeing others pray, I can't say that I have seen any significant sign that "God answers prayer" in the simplistic way it is often presented.
But would I pray for someone's job interview? Yes. Not that God would help them get the job, but lifting them and their concerns into God's loving hands.
I know that I have quoted this before, but one of the most helpful (to me, anyway) quotes on praying comes from Archbishop Michael Ramsey. He describes prayer as “the act of being in God’s presence” and goes on:
quote:
"To be with God for a space. To be with God wondering, that is adoration. To be with God gratefully, that is thanksgiving. To be with God ashamed, that is contrition. To be with God with others on the heart, that is intercession."
I have found this really helpful in how I approach praying.
quote:
Originally posted by riotgrrrl:
2. This is harder to describe, but it strikes me as... arrogant somehow? Why would someone as wise and all-knowing as God take our wishes and opinions into account? I can't see him going "well, I was going to kill off this person with cancer, but since she's got so many people praying for her, I guess I'll send it into remission". Plus the idea seems to be that the more people you have praying for you, the better, when surely it's the lonely and desolate, who have no-one praying for them, who most need God's love?
Again, a good point and one which undermines a lot of commonly held presumptions about prayer. It's not about how much "faith" I or anyone else has; and it's not about how many people you get praying; and it's not about how long I pray or whether I have used the "right" words.
Thank you for this. I guess in a way praying for someone is simply telling God that you love them, and you hope for the best for them? Like I will always light a candle for my Granny if I visit a Catholic place of worship (she's Catholic and I'm not), not because I think it will make Mary intercede on her behalf, but because it's a sign that I'm thinking of her.
Posts: 7 | Registered: Jul 2015
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by riotgrrrl:
I guess in a way praying for someone is simply telling God that you love them, and you hope for the best for them?
Exactly this. I don't know what's best for them - for all I know that job that they are being interviewed for may be a disastrous move. But I know that I can share my love and concern with the God who will love them far better than I can. So I shouldn't presume to twist God's arms or tell God what to do. If God is love, why on earth should I have to try and persuade God to love this person?
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
quote:
Originally posted by riotgrrrl:
1. How does this interact with the concept of free will?
I think that this is a really good question, and one that a lot of people (not just Christians) fail to address.
Prayer - ISTM - is not about twisting God's arm. Nor is it about getting God to twist other people's arms.
To be honest, the longer I am a Christian, the less inclined I am to ask God to step in and change things. Quite apart from anything else, in some 40 years of praying, and seeing others pray, I can't say that I have seen any significant sign that "God answers prayer" in the simplistic way it is often presented.
But would I pray for someone's job interview? Yes. Not that God would help them get the job, but lifting them and their concerns into God's loving hands.
I know that I have quoted this before, but one of the most helpful (to me, anyway) quotes on praying comes from Archbishop Michael Ramsey. He describes prayer as “the act of being in God’s presence” and goes on:
quote:
"To be with God for a space. To be with God wondering, that is adoration. To be with God gratefully, that is thanksgiving. To be with God ashamed, that is contrition. To be with God with others on the heart, that is intercession."
I have found this really helpful in how I approach praying.
This is helpful, though not quite enough I think for some situations. I saw a scene from the movie Independence Day where the Jewish father (Jud Hirsch) of Jeff Goldblum's character says "I haven't been able to pray since my wife died". How does prayer work in such situations? It's not about thinking there isn't a god, it's not about being angry with God, it's about being unable. All I have personally come up with is that I can appropriate some liturgy and things written by others. Not doing adoration, thanksgiving, contrition and certainly not asking for anything. Something I got from reading about Kibbutz women in Israel reciting psalms while rockets fall. When asked about it, they said they did it for comfort and not for anything else.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Here's my reasoning. We are told to become as little children in our attitude toward God. Well, one of the things that is most notable about little children is their entire dependance on parents coupled with a total willingness to ask, even whine, for the least of their needs and wants. They don't try to spiritualize their desires. They don't trouble themselves over the logic of asking or not asking. They just ask.
And their parents just answer, according to the greater knowledge and wisdom they possess. Very often their reasoning process is not one that they can explain to the kids ("No, you can't have ice cream because it will make you hyper just before bedtime and we just can't face that the night before my job interview"). Even the way the parent makes something happen is often opaque to the kids (as when I denied my son a Minecraft toy he asked for because I had the same thing sitting at home for him under the Christmas tree).
It's okay that the parents can't explain and the kids can't understand. What's important is that the kids love and trust their parents enough to bring all their needs and wants to them, and let the parents sort it out. And the parents love their kids enough to say Yes, No, or Let's rearrange this request a bit, as appropriate.
And therefore I pray for everything from someone's salvation to "please let me find a women's toilet soon, Lord!" After all, he already knows what's on my mind, why pretend?
And I trust him to deal with the free will issue too. After all, "the heart of the king is in the Lord's hand; he turns it whatever way he wills". Everyone's free will is impacted by a lot of different influences; why shouldn't God have an influence on the interviewers if he chooses?
And I'll let him sort out whether it is better for me or for my rival to get that particular job. He'll know better than either of us.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
well, the way it's been explained to me is that wrt to free will there is really only one choice - whether we act and think according to divine order/will, or whether we don;t (and the latter essentially means we are affected by evil)
And the Earth is supposed to be an abundant place for us - i.e. God has provided for us. So once we give up evil (which includes any feelings or thought of it not being abundant for either ourselves or for others) then provided that what we are asking for fits into in the divine plan (and I think there's a lot of leeway here), then the prayer is answered.
The main objection to this that I've seen i that people say "oh but what about all those people dying...?" - but as the world is at the moment, we arrive, we have a life from ..to... and we have no idea when that "to" falls - be it after a few minutes or 120 years, and we have no idea of the bigger picture this is all happening in. I find this makes more sense if I assume that there is some form of reincarnation, and we don't just have one life to return completely to God or not. Without more than one life, 99..9% of humanity would not do very well at all, and God wants everyone to return to Him.
Honestly, I can find nothing about this that is Christian. It seems to be a denial of the reality of suffering that is a part of the world-- something that the Bible is very clear about. One of the things that appeals to me about Christianity is the fact that, unlike some other worldviews, it takes suffering seriously and doesn't ask us to pretend the world isn't seriously messed up.
I believe prayer is communication with God, a dialogue. It is us laying bear our hearts to God, and listening to his response. I believe God is moved by our prayers (something that doesn't fit well with Calvinist/Augustinian paradigms), that our prayers can make a difference in the real world in real ways. At the same time, I don't believe that everything that happens in the world is God's Will (see above). Which means that not every prayer is answered. I adopt a particular paradigm (Open Theism) to understand that; others understand that differently. Among many aspects of that, I don't believe that God ever overrides human freedom, which will be one factor in how things turn out (as noted above).
Central to any healthy understanding of prayer is having a healthy and mature understanding of suffering.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Lamb Chopped: And therefore I pray for everything from someone's salvation to "please let me find a women's toilet soon, Lord!" After all, he already knows what's on my mind, why pretend?
I don't really have a problem with that. I might do this kind of prayers sometimes myself.
I can see that it could become a problem in some cases (I'm not saying that these cases relate to you; I'm going to use a generic 'you' now):
If all of your prayers are about asking things like this for yourself, then things are getting a tad egoistic.
If you're going to build a theology based on expectations of fulfillment of these prayers, I think you're going to run into trouble soon.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Certainly. but in that case, at least you're already in the perfect situation to have God correct you!
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
As far as intercessory prayer is concerned, I see it as digging a channel for God's grace to flow to the person you're praying for.
Intercessory prayer is a way for us to share in God's work.
Moo
[ 09. July 2015, 21:30: Message edited by: Moo ]
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Lamb Chopped: Certainly. but in that case, at least you're already in the perfect situation to have God correct you!
There's a certain irony to that. I like it.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
riotgrrrl. You KNOW the answers. They are in your questions.
For example, you KNOW there is no such thing as predestination. God is not a movie.
And you KNOW that there is no evidence whatsoever in this life, yours or anyone else's, for God changing the laws of physics for anyone's convenience.
He was hung as a child in Auschwitz. He burned slowly as a child in her Hiroshima school.
I can and MUST do gratitude. Desperation. Utter and completely naked helplessness. Grateful acceptance of His utterly unconditional love in the face of my Tourette-Bosch intrusive thinking, rumination, regret, fear, lust (at my age, I ask you!), confusion, weakness, ignorance, frustration, childish denial, loss, helplessness.
Is that cancer or just IBS? Or something in between.
We'll see. If it's cancer, I'll certainly tell Him how I feel about it. It'll soon pass either way.
And ALL will be well.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
Intercessory prayer is a way for us to share in God's work.
Moo
This.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
well, the way it's been explained to me is that wrt to free will there is really only one choice - whether we act and think according to divine order/will, or whether we don;t (and the latter essentially means we are affected by evil)
And the Earth is supposed to be an abundant place for us - i.e. God has provided for us. So once we give up evil (which includes any feelings or thought of it not being abundant for either ourselves or for others) then provided that what we are asking for fits into in the divine plan (and I think there's a lot of leeway here), then the prayer is answered.
The main objection to this that I've seen i that people say "oh but what about all those people dying...?" - but as the world is at the moment, we arrive, we have a life from ..to... and we have no idea when that "to" falls - be it after a few minutes or 120 years, and we have no idea of the bigger picture this is all happening in. I find this makes more sense if I assume that there is some form of reincarnation, and we don't just have one life to return completely to God or not. Without more than one life, 99..9% of humanity would not do very well at all, and God wants everyone to return to Him.
Honestly, I can find nothing about this that is Christian. It seems to be a denial of the reality of suffering that is a part of the world-- something that the Bible is very clear about. One of the things that appeals to me about Christianity is the fact that, unlike some other worldviews, it takes suffering seriously and doesn't ask us to pretend the world isn't seriously messed up.
I believe prayer is communication with God, a dialogue. It is us laying bear our hearts to God, and listening to his response. I believe God is moved by our prayers (something that doesn't fit well with Calvinist/Augustinian paradigms), that our prayers can make a difference in the real world in real ways. At the same time, I don't believe that everything that happens in the world is God's Will (see above). Which means that not every prayer is answered. I adopt a particular paradigm (Open Theism) to understand that; others understand that differently. Among many aspects of that, I don't believe that God ever overrides human freedom, which will be one factor in how things turn out (as noted above).
Central to any healthy understanding of prayer is having a healthy and mature understanding of suffering.
I think we all understand suffering one way or another from our personal experience - assuming there is even a modicum of self-reflection. If focussing on it for more than a few minutes does not provide some sense of capacity to act to relieve it or enough compassion to transcend it, then focussing on it is not useful. It just isn't useful at all.
In fact, going back to the Lords Prayer - where is the exhortation to suffering in that? We are asked to be in awe, to wish for the return of the Heavenly kingdom and divine will on Earth (which presumably does not contain suffering?), to wish for "daily bread", which I translate not only as physical sustenance of various forms, but more importantly the Holy Spirit and Love (neither of which contains suffering, I hope). And for the capacity for forgiveness - because without forgiveness we can't love. The fact about emotions is that if we are in a Loving state we are not in another emotion - not anger not sadness, not gaiety - maybe a transformed version of these, but the transformed version is a flavour of love (compassion, gratitude, empoweredment, etc). And no temptation, and no evil... I'm not sure what suffering is, but my understanding is that it is caused directly or indirectly by evil an by us accidentally or unwittingly or otherwise engaging with evil or being caught up in evil and its falsehoods. So if you can find an exhortation to suffer in the Lords Prayer, you're looking at it in a very different way.
I agree with much of what you wrote - except that - I believe every prayer IS answered, - it's just that sometimes we pray for what is not in divine order, sometimes we pray for something that is not in our long term interest, sometimes we receive an answer but don't recognise it as such. And sometimes in all our calamatising and worry and angst we just make it impossible of the answer to happen - because in all this worry we have been taught to enter into, we have accidentally lost our trust and faith and belief that our Father is watching over us. This is not a blaming of individuals, but rather a statement that for generations a lie has been passed down through families that worry an anxiety (i.e. a temporary loss of faith and trust and belief) is normal and that WE organise everything in our lives for ourselves.
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
thank you for that itsarumdo
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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riotgrrrl
Apprentice
# 18437
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
riotgrrrl. You KNOW the answers. They are in your questions.
For example, you KNOW there is no such thing as predestination. God is not a movie.
And you KNOW that there is no evidence whatsoever in this life, yours or anyone else's, for God changing the laws of physics for anyone's convenience.
He was hung as a child in Auschwitz. He burned slowly as a child in her Hiroshima school.
I can and MUST do gratitude. Desperation. Utter and completely naked helplessness. Grateful acceptance of His utterly unconditional love in the face of my Tourette-Bosch intrusive thinking, rumination, regret, fear, lust (at my age, I ask you!), confusion, weakness, ignorance, frustration, childish denial, loss, helplessness.
Is that cancer or just IBS? Or something in between.
We'll see. If it's cancer, I'll certainly tell Him how I feel about it. It'll soon pass either way.
And ALL will be well.
I wouldn't say I KNOW there's no such thing as predestination, there are far more intelligent people than I who believe some form of it, but I certainly believe in free will. I don't see how that answers my question though- unless you're saying the answer is that prayers asking for things are largely pointless?
Posts: 7 | Registered: Jul 2015
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
As far as intercessory prayer is concerned, I see it as digging a channel for God's grace to flow to the person you're praying for.
Intercessory prayer is a way for us to share in God's work.
Moo
That's excellent and memorable phrasing. But I don't think that my projects are God's at all, or I must be spiritually disabled, because perception of grace is beyond me.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
God foresaw your prayers in eternity past and ordained the outcome of some events according to the counsel of his will but with those very prayers in mind.
Daron, is this what you really believe? That is not meant to be offensive, but I have never met anyone who believes in Predestination in this way, maybe I just need to get out more.
Huia
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
God foresaw your prayers in eternity past and ordained the outcome of some events according to the counsel of his will but with those very prayers in mind.
Daron, is this what you really believe? That is not meant to be offensive, but I have never met anyone who believes in Predestination in this way, maybe I just need to get out more.
Huia
Can't speak for Daron of course, but this is pretty standard fare in Calvinist circles. Not my cup of tea, but not unusual at all.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
To be fair, it's a view I've come across in some ways within other traditions too - even those antithetical to Calvinism ...
For instance, I've come across RCs and Orthodox who've argued along similar lines albeit not in such an overt and explicitly 'predestinated' type of way ...
To some extent, the view Daronmedway has articulated is 'demanded' by the interior logic of Calvinism - but I'd suggest it's not exclusively a Calvinistic thing ...
I can't think of immediate examples but I've certainly heard both RCs and Orthodox talk about prayer in a synergistic way that both involves God 'knowing' the outcome as it were and his providence mysteriously working with our desires and intentions in time and eternity.
Ok, they might not articulate it in the way that Daron has - and I'm sure we could find RCs and Orthodox who would articulate it differently. It could well be, though, that I'm so familiar with the more Reformed schema that I'm 'hearing' or 'seeing' it to an extent where the parallels might not exist ... reading it into what other people are saying.
Having said that, I suspect that most conservative forms of Christianity have some kind of notion of God's will mysteriously aligning with ours through prayer. The mileage will vary as to how much of it is God, perhaps, and how much is us ... and then we get into tricky sock-puppet type territory.
I'm happy to live with the mystery of how it all 'works'.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
To be fair, it's a view I've come across in some ways within other traditions too - even those antithetical to Calvinism ...
For instance, I've come across RCs and Orthodox who've argued along similar lines albeit not in such an overt and explicitly 'predestinated' type of way ...
To some extent, the view Daronmedway has articulated is 'demanded' by the interior logic of Calvinism - but I'd suggest it's not exclusively a Calvinistic thing ...
I can't think of immediate examples but I've certainly heard both RCs and Orthodox talk about prayer in a synergistic way that both involves God 'knowing' the outcome as it were and his providence mysteriously working with our desires and intentions in time and eternity.
It seems to me that the idea, however expressed, flows naturally from the understanding that God is outside of time.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Philip Charles
Ship's cutler
# 618
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Posted
Over the years I have changed because of my conversations with my wife. I have also been changed through my conversations with God - prayer. The guaranteed answer to my prayers is this change. Other things may happen, but I have no right to expect them. To me every thing is legitimate in these prayer conversations - "God, where is that bloody car park!!" I count myself fortunate all my passions can be involved when God and I are having a conversation. Despite the awesome nature of God I find myself accepted as I am and respected as a person imperfect as I may be. If I am passionate about a particular evil or some positive enterprise my prayer conversation may lead me to work out how to do something useful, but I may also be lead to leave it to more competent people. When I pray for people I am certain these prayer conversations improve the relationship I have with them.
There is rather much "I I I" in this post but like other pray-ers I am at one end of a relationship with God and these relationships are unique and illogical. To try to foce them into a logical framework like predestination is to do them considerable violence.
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There are 10 kinds of people. Those who understand binary and those who don't.
Posts: 89 | From: Dunedin, NZ | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jammy Dodger
Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
On the other hand it is specifically commended to us by Jesus [QUOTE]‘Pray then in this way:
Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And do not bring us to the time of trial,
but rescue us from the evil one.
Sorry joining in late. I am rubbish at intercessory prayer - not because I have a problem asking for things as I do this all the time like any needy child - just cos I struggle to focus on praying through specific needs (unless I am praying with someone else).
Anyway reason for the post was I have found the Lord's Prayer enormously helpful recently, as I find it helps me focus on 5 things which I trust are important because Jesus thought they were:
1. God this is about you not me.
2. I want your kingdom to come and I want your will not mine. E.g. If praying for a job interview - what is your will, is this job on your kingdom agenda or on mine?
3. I trust you to provide what I need (how hard this is to pray varies)
4. You've forgiven me loads - help me be forgiving, gracious, patient and all the things I'm not normally.
5. I need your help to steer clear of stuff that will trip me up or cause me to trip other people up.
[ 16. July 2015, 18:37: Message edited by: Jammy Dodger ]
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Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek
Posts: 438 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2013
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
To be fair, it's a view I've come across in some ways within other traditions too - even those antithetical to Calvinism ...
For instance, I've come across RCs and Orthodox who've argued along similar lines albeit not in such an overt and explicitly 'predestinated' type of way ...
To some extent, the view Daronmedway has articulated is 'demanded' by the interior logic of Calvinism - but I'd suggest it's not exclusively a Calvinistic thing ...
I can't think of immediate examples but I've certainly heard both RCs and Orthodox talk about prayer in a synergistic way that both involves God 'knowing' the outcome as it were and his providence mysteriously working with our desires and intentions in time and eternity.
It seems to me that the idea, however expressed, flows naturally from the understanding that God is outside of time.
Absolutely. Which is why the one thing that will change most radically when you adopt an Open Theist view of God as inside time is your prayer life.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'm not sure how that follows, Cliffdweller. I don't see God as somehow being 'inside' time ... in fact, I'm not particularly aware that I'd even articulate it along those lines -- the whole thing about God being 'inside' or 'outside' time strikes me as an irrelevance, I'm afraid. I don't see the need to get exercised about it.
Nor do I see how such a belief, one way or another, would affect how I currently pray.
I can understand Daronmedway's 'take' and I can understand why that might niggle with some people - but I really don't get exercised about it one way or the other. The more I've tended to use set Daily Office type prayers alongside my extemporary ones the less bothered I've become about that whole issue.
I pray and I use my own words as well as prayers that have helped Christians down the centuries. I leave the 'results' if you like with God. How it works is beyond me - I don't even speculate about that any more. There're plenty of other things I speculate about but not that one.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'm not sure how that follows, Cliffdweller. I don't see God as somehow being 'inside' time ... in fact, I'm not particularly aware that I'd even articulate it along those lines -- the whole thing about God being 'inside' or 'outside' time strikes me as an irrelevance, I'm afraid. I don't see the need to get exercised about it.
Nor do I see how such a belief, one way or another, would affect how I currently pray.
If you see God as "outside" of time (as most do) you inevitably find yourself trapped in exactly the sorts of logical incongruence that we've discussed here: questions of theodicy, yes, but even of the efficacy of prayer if everything is already known. It's hard to even conceive of the purpose of prayer in such a circumstance.
One of the "lightbulb" moments that happens when you switch to an Open Theist paradigm of God "inside" time is how rapidly and radically that all changes. Prayer becomes immediate, impactful, powerful, meaningful. It is a dialogue. It changes things. Open Theism is a radical re-think of everything but nothing more radically than the question of "what are we doing when we pray?".
The radicalness of this new paradigm is both what (understandably) turns many off to this very different paradigm as well as what makes so many of us adherents so passionate about it-- because it radically alters the practice of faith.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Well, yes, I can see and appreciate that to an extent but I've got to be honest - the Open Theism arguments I've come across just haven't 'grabbed' me at all ... perhaps I've not read enough of them.
I'm not trying to dim your enthusiasm nor your 'light-bulb' moment but whenever I've followed Open Theist threads here on Ship or read the often quite acrimonious debates between more Calvinistic types and Open Theists it's just made me wonder what all the fuss is about.
I can certainly see the logical problems that Calvinism throws up and issues of theodicy and so on - which Calvinists seem to neatly side-step it seems to me -- ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
But at the same time I'm not sure I find Open Theism - if I understand it correctly and I may well not have done - any 'better' in terms of offering solutions ... at a simplistic level it seems to clip God's omniscience to a certain extent ... but I may have got the wrong end of the stick.
God knows everything. So surely he's not going to be taken by surprise ...
At the same time, I don't see God as macro-managing every little whip-stitch and determining in advance whether I have Staffordshire oatcakes or sandwiches for my tea ...
I am, however, intrigued by your comment about experiencing more power, freedom and so on and so forth in prayer as a result of adopting the position you've adopted. I'm not being entirely dismissive, although I acknowledge that I probably sound it ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
Fair 'nuff. My point was just that it IS a radical rethink-- so no surprise that it's not going to be everyone's cup of tea. But for those of us who do find something worth a 2nd look, the aspect of our faith that's going to experience the most significant transformation is in our prayer life.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Sure - maybe I'm slow - but whilst I can understand that praying in an 'Open Theist' kind of way sidesteps some of the knotty issues of Theodicy thrown up by Calvinism - at least as it is popularly expressed or understood - I'm not sure what it actually resolves as I'd imagine it'd throw up knotty Theodicy issues of another kind ...
![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
I am intrigued though, and interested in what you mean / are driving at ... but talking about one's prayer life is always difficult as it's not the sort of thing that can be conveyed in a neat and cut and dried way to anyone else.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Sure - maybe I'm slow - but whilst I can understand that praying in an 'Open Theist' kind of way sidesteps some of the knotty issues of Theodicy thrown up by Calvinism - at least as it is popularly expressed or understood - I'm not sure what it actually resolves as I'd imagine it'd throw up knotty Theodicy issues of another kind ...
I am intrigued though, and interested in what you mean / are driving at ... but talking about one's prayer life is always difficult as it's not the sort of thing that can be conveyed in a neat and cut and dried way to anyone else.
It's not really the theodicy issue that changes the prayer life so much... although in a secondary way, I guess it does. (imho Open Theism gets us further in resolving theodicy issues than anyone else has, but it's not a perfect answer, as Martin will hasten to tell us). What changes in one's prayer life w/ Open Theism is the sense of immediacy, the sense of responsiveness, the sense of import to it all. In some ways it's daunting-- it's far easier for prayer slackers like myself if prayer isn't all that powerful-- after all, if prayer is really just about "changing my heart" then if I'm not all that diligent re prayer then it's really only me that's getting hurt.
But prayer in an Open paradigm is much more powerful and immediate than that. Prayer is risky, engaging, wondrous, relational-- probably, as you note, in ways that are hard to distinguish from the way prayer is risky, engaging, wondrous and relational for everyone else, other than simply to say, for me (and other Open Theists I've discussed this with), it is the most incredible transformation I've had in my life as a Christian.
fwiw, ymmv, etc etc
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
Theodicy is itself the sidestep.
Instead of focussing on the big problems such as world peace and the problem of evil, turn the telescope around. Look at the small stuff.
That is how we learnt to pray as kids, with prayers like 'God bless Granny' and the dog's fleas. With prayer we learn to be faithful in small things and work our way up.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'm pleased on your account, Cliffdweller but I still don't 'get' it. Perhaps it's because I tend to use Prayer Book and set prayers these days and I don't see how those could differ within an 'Open' or other paradigm. I don't know how one can even begin to evaluate how 'immediate' or otherwise one's prayers are. I really don't know how to talk about or evaluate these things any more. Sometimes my prayers feel perfunctory - at other times the heavens feel as brass - at others it feels like I'm getting somewhere but I'm not really sure how or why.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'm pleased on your account, Cliffdweller but I still don't 'get' it. Perhaps it's because I tend to use Prayer Book and set prayers these days and I don't see how those could differ within an 'Open' or other paradigm.
I don't see how it could not.
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I don't know how one can even begin to evaluate how 'immediate' or otherwise one's prayers are.
The cognitive framework in which one is praying will certainly determine who "immediate" you yourself experience prayer. Really, what you believe/assume about God and the future will determine everything about your own internal experience of prayer. But I agree there's no way to measure or explain that or compare it to anyone else's experience-- that was my point in the post above.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Sure - I understood that, Cliffdweller - I was simply thinking aloud in terms of trying to get my head around the difference it would make to my prayers if I took either an Open Theist or intensely Calvinist stand-point in the way I pray.
I can see the two viewpoints as fundamentally opposed but seeing as I don't hold to either position I'm not really sure what kind of difference it would make to the way I pray.
Perhaps I ought to assume one or the other and see what difference it makes ...
I daresay the way I've prayed in the past has been influenced/informed by a more Calvinistic sensibility ... and yes, I can see a difference there.
I'm not sure how an Open Theist position would affect the way I approach prayer now, though, unless of course I've come to such a position without actually articulating or realising that I've done so ... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
These days I simply get on and pray the Daily Office/s and add my own extemporary and 'arrow prayers' as the occasion seems to demand -- and I don't get unduly concerned or wound up about how I do it or why ... which is unusual for me as I tend to analyse the guts out of absolutely everything ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Perhaps I ought to assume one or the other and see what difference it makes ...
Although, as has been noted in this forum before, it's pretty hard to talk yourself into believing something you don't. In the end, it's not about which paradigm lends a better "experience" but rather which one is true. I happen to have become (more or less) convinced of the truth of Open Theism, and that has, happily for me, led to a very positive experience. But it probably doesn't work as well if approached from the other way 'round.
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'm not sure how an Open Theist position would affect the way I approach prayer now, though, unless of course I've come to such a position without actually articulating or realising that I've done so ... .
I suspect, at least in regards to prayer, that is the case. In my experience, pretty much everyone prays like an Open Theist. The benefit for me has come mostly from having a theological framework that fits with my intuitive practice/ experience of God.
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
These days I simply get on and pray the Daily Office/s and add my own extemporary and 'arrow prayers' as the occasion seems to demand -- and I don't get unduly concerned or wound up about how I do it or why ... which is unusual for me as I tend to analyse the guts out of absolutely everything ...
Much to be said for that, of course!
![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
I honestly wasn't trying to suggest "everyone should just be more like me" although I realize how much it ended up sounding like that... Honestly, I'm not THAT prideful...
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
No, indeed - that's not how it came across to me. I didn't interpret your position as one of pride.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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