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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Oct Book - A Song for Issy Bradley
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
This month's book is A Song for Issy Bradley, by Carys Bray.
I hope others enjoy it as much as I did.
I will post questions around the 20th.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
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Posted
I've nearly finished it, and have really enjoyed it so far. Looking forward to discussing it.
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'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
Posts: 2035 | From: London | Registered: Jan 2007
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Tree Bee
Ship's tiller girl
# 4033
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Posted
A copy is awaiting my collection at the library. I'll collect it next week when I'm home from Cornwall, and hope to get it read on time to join in.
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"Any fool can make something complicated. It takes a genius to make it simple."
Woody Guthrie
http://saysaysay54.wordpress.com
Posts: 5257 | From: me to you. | Registered: Feb 2003
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chive
Ship's nude
# 208
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Posted
I loved this when I read it a few months ago. I'll see if I have time to reread it.
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'Edward was the kind of man who thought there was no such thing as a lesbian, just a woman who hadn't done one-to-one Bible study with him.' Catherine Fox, Love to the Lost
Posts: 3542 | From: the cupboard under the stairs | Registered: May 2001
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Tree Bee
Ship's tiller girl
# 4033
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Posted
Started it yesterday and already half way through.
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"Any fool can make something complicated. It takes a genius to make it simple."
Woody Guthrie
http://saysaysay54.wordpress.com
Posts: 5257 | From: me to you. | Registered: Feb 2003
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Are we good to go? I'll post questions tonight.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
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Posted
That will be great - I'm really looking forward to discussing this book
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'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
Posts: 2035 | From: London | Registered: Jan 2007
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
1. Did you think the author balanced tragedy and comedy well?
2. The characters are Mormons. Did you think that some aspects of their church experience rang true for your own religious community?
3. What did you think of the way that faith was portrayed in the book?
4. Did you have a favourite character?
5. What did you think of the ending?
6. What will be your abiding memory of this book?
(edited because I can't count up to 6)
[ 21. October 2015, 19:59: Message edited by: North East Quine ]
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Tree Bee
Ship's tiller girl
# 4033
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Posted
Thank you for recommending this book, I found it enthralling. The characters were distinct and alive.
1. Did you think the author balanced tragedy and comedy well?
Yes, absolutely. The tragedy of Issy's death and Claire's extreme reaction to it could have made for a depressing story, but it wasn't.
2. The characters are Mormons. Did you think that some aspects of their church experience rang true for your own religious community?
Not for my current Quaker Meeting, no. But the tensions in taking children and teens along to church and passing on codes of behaviour were familiar.
3. What did you think of the way that faith was portrayed in the book?
It was recognisable in that each family member had their own struggles with different areas. I have no personal experience of the Mormon faith so I assume the portrayal is realistic.
4. Did you have a favourite character?
Jacob because he is so like my Grandson in the way he behaves and speaks.
5. What did you think of the ending?
It was a bit of a cop out as it leaves the conclusion to the reader. Of course in my head Claire survives.
6. What will be your abiding memory?
Claire hiding in Issy's bed and the trauma she went through.
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"Any fool can make something complicated. It takes a genius to make it simple."
Woody Guthrie
http://saysaysay54.wordpress.com
Posts: 5257 | From: me to you. | Registered: Feb 2003
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
quote:
I have no personal experience of the Mormon faith so I assume the portrayal is realistic.
I assumed that the portrayal of Mormonism is realistic, although I have no personal experience of it, either. The author is a former Mormon. I loved this book for its story and characters, but learning something about another faith was a big plus.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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chive
Ship's nude
# 208
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Posted
I have no idea if the book was true to the experience of growing up Mormon but it spoke to me as to my experience of growing up wee free. Constantly feeling other to the world around you, swallowing whole what was being taught and then having to go through the painful experience of growing up and working through those beliefs and getting rid of the bullshit, not feeling comfortable within the faith community because you're not sure you truly believe it and not feeling comfortable within any other community because they don't ascribe to the faith you don't know if you believe but you have to pretend you do so you can attempt to fit in somewhere. I think I too would have gone off to play football in the park.
It also hit me as someone who had a mother who, for different reasons, opted out and suddenly finding all the norms of life shaken and that the family no longer seems to work.
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'Edward was the kind of man who thought there was no such thing as a lesbian, just a woman who hadn't done one-to-one Bible study with him.' Catherine Fox, Love to the Lost
Posts: 3542 | From: the cupboard under the stairs | Registered: May 2001
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
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Posted
1. Did you think the author balanced tragedy and comedy well?
Yes, the comedy, Jacob and the fish for instance, came out of the tragedy and both were very well done.
2. The characters are Mormons. Did you think that some aspects of their church experience rang true for your own religious community?
I know very little about the Mormon faith, but the scene at the party where Zippy tried to explain that Mormons werent like Jehovahs Witnesses was one where Ive had similar conversations. Ive met various people who wondered why I wasnt wearing a headscarf when I was a Quaker for instance. I also thought Alma and the three nephites rang true. There have been times, in my more religious phases, when Ive thought my Guardian Angel has come to my rescue.
3. What did you think of the way that faith was portrayed in the book?.
This was one of the strengths of the book. I understand the author is no longer a Morman, but I thought this was a very kind portrait. I did think Ians character could, and very nearly did, have veered into caricature with his certainty that his beliefs were right, but in the end he seemed to be finding a way of balancing his faith and his family commitments.
4. Did you have a favourite character?
I liked Zippy. She was a naturally good person, trying to balance her faith with growing up and on the whole succeeding. I wonder when she gets older if she would be happy to have an early marriage.
5. What did you think of the ending? .
I think I liked the way you werent sure that Clare was rescued by her family, but Im pretty sure she would have been.
6. What will be your abiding memory of this book? I have a few. The start where you know Issy is going to die, but her mother is still rushing round sorting out Jacobs party, Ian in the hospital when Issy is dying talking about false legs with red shoes, It seemed a very real reaction to what he was facing. Alma and the three nephites.
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'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
Posts: 2035 | From: London | Registered: Jan 2007
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
quote:
I did think Ians character could, and very nearly did, have veered into caricature
I read an interview with the author in which she said that the character of Ian was the one which came closest to being autobiographical. I found this interesting as he was in my opinion the least convincing. In particular it didn't seem to occur to him that if only his commitment to the church hadn't trumped his previous commitment to share the organisation of Jacob's party, things might have been very different.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
quote:
I liked Zippy. She was a naturally good person, trying to balance her faith with growing up and on the whole succeeding. I wonder when she gets older if she would be happy to have an early marriage.
I felt Zippy was very real; I wanted to know how life worked out for her as she grew older. If she was sixteen in the book she could be married in two or three years time, a thought I found appalling.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Sorry, slow to the party as I finally finished it yesterday. I was trying to finish it off before but had forgotten to charge the Kindle, which was incredibly frustrating. (I've been working on my commute most of the last month, which has eaten into my reading time).
1. Did you think the author balanced tragedy and comedy well?
It was a well balanced book that kept me reading (see above, really frustrating when I couldn't keep reading)
2. The characters are Mormons. Did you think that some aspects of their church experience rang true for your own religious community?
I agree with the others, particularly the way the teenagers were and weren't engaging, the children trying to come to terms with their faith as portrayed in the younger classes. The overwhelmingness of the Mormon faith with all the additional classes and teaching isn't something I've experienced, but I've seen others in that position.
I found the portrayal of the Mormon faith in this small domestic way fascinating.
3. What did you think of the way that faith was portrayed in the book?
I thought it was very realistic. So many true lessons within the humour as well as the tragedy. The sheer obliviousness of Ian to the consequences of his actions, until the end, when he did, finally, prioritise his family. The faith of some of the Brothers, particularly the one Alma helps, the sheer frustration of the visions of the Sisters, because that matters so much more than actually helping.
4. Did you have a favourite character?
I think I'd choose Zippy, along with others on this thread, but that's probably because I identify with her most closely, with all her teenage angsts. But I liked Alma and Jacob too. Alma's rebellions against this stultifying, to him, faith and his desire to just play football and be normal with in his wider community.
All the children were beautifully portrayed.
5. What did you think of the ending?
I liked the ambiguity. I think dotting the i's and crossing the t's would have left it too tidy, when the whole portrayal was about how untidy life really is, faith or no. I suspect Claire was saved, partly because the thought of what would happen to that family if she wasn't is devastatingly unthinkable and it's not something I want to wish on them.
6. What will be your abiding memory of this book?
A warmer feeling towards the Mormon faith, and those lives.
I really loved this book, so much detail and such beautiful writing.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
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Posted
North-East QUine said:
quote:
I read an interview with the author in which she said that the character of Ian was the one which came closest to being autobiographical. I found this interesting as he was in my opinion the least convincing.
Just got round to reading that interview. I don't think I've ever felt about my faith in quie the literal way Ian does and the author did. I felt his attitudes were not just due to his faith, but to his views on the roles different members of a family play within the family. So if Claire couldn't cook dinner, Zippy should. That reminded me of my dad, who was a dyed in the wool atheist.
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'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
Posts: 2035 | From: London | Registered: Jan 2007
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Weirdly, Facebook has included a bloke called Zippy Bradley as as "person I might know" with a suggestion I send him a friend request. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
I finished reading this a couple of days after October finished, but Sarasa said I can still join in, so here are my answers to the questions. I enjoyed this book.
1. Did you think the author balanced tragedy and comedy well?
I don't know if I would use the words 'tragedy' or 'comedy', but I thought the author balanced the everyday, ordinary, little, realistic details of family life with the bigger theme of their grief, so it didn't get sentimental.
2. The characters are Mormons. Did you think that some aspects of their church experience rang true for your own religious community?
I found some aspects, like literal understanding of the Bible and not allowing for doubts, reminded me of attitudes held in some churches I've attended in the past, such as some Baptist churches. I found the whole community thing, with the 'them and us' attitude to the outside world, and supporting each other with food and visits, reminded me of churches where there is more of a cultural community, such as Mennonite communties (I'm not Mennonite, but was part of a Mennonite church when I lived in Canada). It also reminded a lot of a conversation I had with a woman who'd grown up Jehovah's Witness, but whose family had been excommunicated due to her parents splitting up and her dad finding another partner. She was no longer Jehovah's Witness, and she didn't agree with them doing that, but she actually had a lot of positive things to say about her JW upbringing, and what a close-knit supportive community it was, and how everyone supported each other.
3. What did you think of the way that faith was portrayed in the book?
I had the impression of it being written by someone who had been part of the Mormon faith and was now critical of it but also fond of it. I also had the impression it was of a very particular type of family within the faith, and that the depiction of a different family would be very different in many ways.
4. Did you have a favourite character?
Yes, I liked Al. He seemed to be the one who was able to question his family's beliefs when they didn't make sense, without fear or denial - in fact, he seemed unable to do the denial thing, or to divide himself into two bits (which is what Adam tells Zippy that she has done, and it did seem to me that she had). I knew quite a few people like Zippy in church when I was a kid - good kids who really wanted to believe eveything they were taught, because it's what their parents had taught them, and they managed to find ways to avoid asking the awkward questions. But I was more like Al, and I had to question, and say what I thought, and I couldn't pretend, and so I identified with that.
5. What did you think of the ending?
I thought it was a bit artificial. It was like the author had moved from the realistic, earthly mode into a spiritual, symbolic mode, and Claire became more of a symbol than a person. I actually found it a bit pretentious - I wasn't fully convinced by the depiction of Claire, out of all the characters. I wondered if it was a bit of wish-fulfilment on the part of the author - in her own tragedies maybe part of her wanted to completely shut off from the world, and she is sort of imagining it in this novel. But I think that level of shut-off would be way more complex than is described, both in terms of Claire's psychological state and the impact on the family.
6. What will be your abiding memory of this book?
All of it. I generally remember the whole of books. All the details - Ian getting everyone to write in their journals after Issy's death, and the different things they wrote, Zippy feeling sick when watching the frog get dissected, and thinking about what happens to Issy's body, Zippy and Ian dressing Issy's body, Jacob trying to resurrect a spider and thinking the fish was resurrected, Al swearing when kids say his name is a girl's name, and being sent to his room, and Al having to clean toilets and deciding that logically it would be better to run off and get in trouble than to clean toilets, Ian trying so hard, and Al's conversations with Brother Rimmer. I think the thing I will remember as not quite making sense to me is Al taking that money from his mother. I understood all the things he did afterwards to try to return it without being caught, but I didn't really get why he took it in the first place. It didn't really fit his character, from my understanding.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
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Posted
I though Alma taking the money was the sort of thing a teenager would do without htinking too much about it. He was struggling with fitting into the family and maybe he saw it as the promise of some sort of freedom.
It would be interesting to see how the family moved on after Claire's rescue (assuming she was). Did anyone else think that she might discover she was pregnant again?
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'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
Posts: 2035 | From: London | Registered: Jan 2007
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Tree Bee
Ship's tiller girl
# 4033
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sarasa:
It would be interesting to see how the family moved on after Claire's rescue (assuming she was). Did anyone else think that she might discover she was pregnant again?
Ah yes, you could be right! That episode was strange wasn't it, made me very uncomfortable.
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"Any fool can make something complicated. It takes a genius to make it simple."
Woody Guthrie
http://saysaysay54.wordpress.com
Posts: 5257 | From: me to you. | Registered: Feb 2003
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
I didn't think she was pregnant again, though I suppose she could be from that one time when Ian got into bed with her. I did think it would be a very difficult transition for both her and the family though, for her to come back to them after being so detached - I was thinking 'How would this actually work, in reality?' There was no development in her mindset in the novel - no sense of her finding it easier to cope or wanting to return to her family or to seek help. She just got more and more detached - dissociated, I think I mean. She'd gone to the beach to let herself die and be with Issy. She'd need some kind of therapy, and it would be a long process. And I think her behaviour would have been quite traumatic for the kids, even though they were portrayed as coping very well. I imagine there would be some post traumatic stuff to deal with afterwards - it would be a lot harder for them once the crisis had passed and things were getting back to normal.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
I felt both Claire and Ian detached themselves, in different ways. The huge elephant in the room was the question - if Ian, having said he would help with Jacob's party, hadn't reneged on that commitment in order to attend a church meeting, would they have realised how ill Issy was in time to save her?
Ian was just as dissociated from that question as Claire was. The difference was that he was able to function as a teacher, bishop, husband and father while he was dissociating himself.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
Interesting. I didn't see it in terms of that particular question. And I didn't even think Claire had dissociated herself from that question - she'd thought about lots of 'what ifs', and felt anger at both herself and at Ian. And there are always what ifs and regrets when someone dies.
By dissociation, I meant a more pathological state of depersonalisation. Ian had quite a bit of denial going on - there were things he wouldn't pursue or think about - but then I think that was actually necessary for his survival, and his ability to carry on in his roles. There are times when denial is a necessary coping mechanism. He couldn't fall apart because Claire had - one parent had to keep going, and care for the children. Obviously at some point, for his own mental health, and for a deeper relationship with his family, he'd need to face the awkward questions and not gloss them over with simple platitudes, but I imagine that would be a gradual process, and when Claire isn't so fragile, so he's in a safer position to do so.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
I didn't find Claire's behaviour that unrealistic. The level of depression described is that disabling and disengaged. Coming out of it is a different matter.
I don't think the story could continue as a book because of those difficulties. The ambiguity of the ending means that lots of things are unresolved and messy. But so is real life.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
I didn't find Claire's behaviour unrealistic either. Faced with an environment in which she was expected to carry on as though nothing momentous had happened, it's no wonder she took to bed. She didn't seem to have the option of expressing her grief in any other way.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
I didn't find her behaviour unrealistic at all. When I said 'But I think that level of shut-off would be way more complex than is described, both in terms of Claire's psychological state and the impact on the family', I was talking about the depiction of her psychological state and the impact on the family.
I am thinking how to describe what I mean. I think there are many women who would want to do what Claire did, but they would have some part of their brain telling them to look after the kids, to keep going - they'd be falling apart inside but that overall love for their kids, focus on the family, etc. would keep them going. Or if they couldn't, they'd be trying to reassure the kids that they care for them.
But Claire's level of breakdown is such that she loses this overall awareness and loses empathy for her family - this is certainly a reaction some people experience, but I think the psychological state would be more complex and chaotic and fragmented than Claire's was depicted as being. I wasn't convinced by the depiction of her thoughts, from knowing people who have reached this state, from other books I've read that are real life stories, or where the author has experienced this level of shutdown themselves. So I wondered if this author had experienced wanting to shut down but still having that overall awareness and focus on her kids that stopped her doing it, and she was imagining what it would be like. I just wasn't quite convinced when I was reading Claire's perspective, especially as it got further into the book.
And yes, as Curiosity Killed... said, coming out of that level of disengagement would be very difficult. And the impact on the whole family - there would be a lot of trauma all round. For instance, I think there would have been an element of horror and fear for Jacob, seeing his mother basically change into a completely different person, who doesn't react to him. But there wasn't really a sense of this in the novel.
And the whole symbolic, spiritual-like bit at the end, with Claire's family running towards her in slow motion, to rescue her, and the ambiguity, the brink of life and death, the footprints reference - that just seemed to me to be evading the messy reality of the ongoing trauma the family will experience, by trying to turn it into something clever and spiritual and symbolic. For me, it didn't really work. Claire is suicidal and so detached from reality that the boundaries between life and death have become blurred for her - she's seriously mentally unwell.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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