Ship of Fools: Low-key fictional Christians

Thread: Low-key fictional Christians Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Slightly surprised- though there's no reason why I should be- to discover that Ian Rankin's Inspector Rebus, though not a churchgoer, thinks of himself as a Christian.
Anybody else noticed any perhaps slightly unexpected (contemporary?) fictional characters who, while not 'Christian Characters' as such, turn out to be Christians of some kind? You would expect that if you were creating credible characters in fiction, every so often you would have one or to who are or who see themselves as Christians in some way: John le Carre does this, especially among his minor characters, but I wonder how many other authors do.

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

I do. (I have many limitations as a writer, but I have the rep for being able to write characters who are not only protagonists, but good persons.)

There are lots of quietly religious fictional characters. Dick Grayson (you know, Batman's sidekick) is on record as a believer, as is Nightcrawler of the X-Men. Colossal Boy (Legion of Super-Heroes) is a Jew, as is Mary Russell, heroine of Laurie King's Holmes novels.

And there's masses of religious persons in science fiction and fantasy. You will have heard of A Canticle for Liebowitz by Walter M. Miller or The Sparrow by Mary Doria Russell (Jesuits), or the Alvin books by Orson Scott Card (Mormon), or Judy Tarr's medieval fantasies (Catholic with elves).

Posted by ArachnidinElmet (# 17346) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
There are lots of quietly religious fictional characters. Dick Grayson (you know, Batman's sidekick) is on record as a believer, as is Nightcrawler of the X-Men.

IIRC, in one storyline, Nightcrawler was a priest.

Vampire Hunter, Anita Blake (please don't take this an endorsement, the books went very seriously downhill a while back) and Sookie Stackhouse in the Southern Vampire series (later the TV series True Blood) are both practising Christians. Very useful if you're likely to be exposed to blood-sucking fiends.

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ArachnidinElmet:
IIRC, in one storyline, Nightcrawler was a priest.

Yes, but comics fans don't talk about that.

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

Oh, and here is a superb comics example: the Confessor, from Astro City. He was introduced in a highly-recommended graphic novel of the same name, one of the best comics ever. With luck it is in your local library. I won't spoil it for you, but the Confessor is a Catholic priest turned super hero, and he has a variety of assistants and sidekicks: Altar Boy, the Choristers, and so on.

Also in Astro City is the Samaritan, who spends every waking moment doing good deeds and took his name from the parable.

Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Slightly surprised- though there's no reason why I should be- to discover that Ian Rankin's Inspector Rebus, though not a churchgoer, thinks of himself as a Christian.

One of the interesting sub-plots, weaving its way through the numerous Rebus books, is his attitude to faith and the church. It's done in a very subtle way, though.

Another "religious detective" is William Murdoch. Although the books are very different from the TV series (all that remains are the names of a few characters), Murdoch is always a Catholic in a society where Catholics were often distrusted. More of this is made in the (excellent) books - I wish Maureen Jennings had written more of them.

Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :

Does Lord Peter Wimsey count as low-key? And then there is the Gervase Fen series by Edmund Crispin (which deserve to be much better known).

Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :

It does come up in the Murdoch Mysteries TV series. My MIL loves them and we end up watching quite a few when we visit.

Posted by agingjb (# 16555) on :

Hathaway in "Lewis", but he isn't really low key.

Posted by Sarasa (# 12271) on :

Ricardus said:

quote:
Does Lord Peter Wimsey count as low-key?

I think he does. One of the things that annoyed me about the Jill Paton Walsh continuations was that Wimsey appears to become an agnostic, certainly his attitude to religion changed.

Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :

In the movie The Beach, one of the layabout expats is shown as extolling "thw twin pillars of civilization, cricket and Christianty".

Open exaltation of Christianity seems rather out of character for the type of person portrayed as inhabiting that community. I assume the theme is treated more extensively in the book.

Posted by beatmenace (# 16955) on :

quote:

Originally posted by Albertus:
Slightly surprised- though there's no reason why I should be- to discover that Ian Rankin's Inspector Rebus, though not a churchgoer, thinks of himself as a Christian.

It was a big part of the character in the first book 'Knots and Crosses' (which I think he wrote as part of his English degree) but Rankin seems to be constantly backtracking on this as the books progress.

In the recent books, Rankin seems to have completely forgotten that he originally wrote the character as a lapsed Christian, as there is seemingly no trace of it, even in the stories derived from Rebus's past ( for example 'Saints of the Shadow Bible' is based on events in Rebus's first posting).

Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on :

A slightly unobvious obvious one - Graham Greene?

Yes he dealt a lot with catholicism, but I've often wondered what led him, in England Made Me (a novel otherwise fairly religion free) to make Minty a quietly unobtrusive *Anglo* Catholic...

John Le Carre is an excellent and repeat offender for this, as has been noted. I could be wrong, but from memory I think the Inspector Morse of the novels is a non-observant at the Christian end of agnosticism (obviously his parent were Quakers).

Alexander McCall Smith (here I'm really not doing my cred any favours) has a nice line in out of the way but barely questioned religious observance. Basil in the Corduroy Mansions books is IIRC Anglo Catholic. Of course, Angus Lordie, in the 44 Scotland Street series, is a fervent member of the SEC (as much as he's fervent about anything).

Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Anybody else noticed any perhaps slightly unexpected (contemporary?) fictional characters who, while not 'Christian Characters' as such, turn out to be Christians of some kind?

Not contemporary in any sense, but a few years back I was reading some of the Zorro short stories/novellas and there were references to him, after an adventure, going to confession.

Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sarasa:
Ricardus said:

quote:
Does Lord Peter Wimsey count as low-key?
I think he does. One of the things that annoyed me about the Jill Paton Walsh continuations was that Wimsey appears to become an agnostic, certainly his attitude to religion changed.

Though Lord Peter is nominally CofE -- he reads the Lesson in Church in 'Busman's Honeymoon' -- he betrays his lack of familiarity with church services at least twice -- in 'The Nine Tailors' he gets confused saying the Our Father in the New Year service and later admits his unfamiliarity with the Burial Office. However, in one of the short stories he shows is familiarity with the Kensit-ite protests.
Sayers is quoted as saying that Wimsey isn't a Christian, but a 'Whig gentlemen born slightly out of his time, not at all sure that to claim having a soul isn't presumptuous.' (I'm quoting from memory and this may not be quite right.)

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
georgiaboy: in 'The Nine Tailors' he gets confused saying the Our Father in the New Year service and later admits his unfamiliarity with the Burial Office.

Sounds like a typical CofE member to me [Two face]

Posted by Chapelhead (# 21) on :

I've recently been reading some of the 'Lovejoy' books by Jonathan Gash. In the books, Lovejoy seems to be a regular church-goer and choir member.

Joe Sixsmith in Reginald Hill's books is also, IIRC, a (somewhat reluctant) church choir member.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
I've recently been reading some of the 'Lovejoy' books by Jonathan Gash. In the books, Lovejoy seems to be a regular church-goer and choir member.

Really? I've only read one, (involving an Irish burial mound) and I found the character utterly unlikeable, and the idea of his being any sort of Christian is a bit odd. He went on my list of not to be read again. (Like the TV, though.)

Posted by Chapelhead (# 21) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:

quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
I've recently been reading some of the 'Lovejoy' books by Jonathan Gash. In the books, Lovejoy seems to be a regular church-goer and choir member.
Really? I've only read one, (involving an Irish burial mound) and I found the character utterly unlikeable, and the idea of his being any sort of Christian is a bit odd. He went on my list of not to be read again. (Like the TV, though.)

Lovejoy of the books is, as you've spotted, very different from the Lovejoy of the television series. He is pretty unlikeable, except in an 'anti-hero' sort of way (but he doesn't even make a very good anti-hero). He's selfish, a womaniser, cares not a thing for anyone else's feelings and is generally difficult. But he believes his own publicity, which includes being an upstanding member of the community, and that means going to church.

I don't think I'll be reading any more after I've finished the one I'm on at the moment, though.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Penny S: ]Really? I've only read one, (involving an Irish burial mound) and I found the character utterly unlikeable, and the idea of his being any sort of Christian is a bit odd.

There are no unlikeable Christians?

Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on :

I;ll stand up for the Lovejoy books (this thread is going from bad to worse in exposing the blind spots of my literary consumption).

They were so toned down for Sunday night telly that I think that people probably come to them with the wrong baggage. I'd agree he's somewhat selfish, but I'm not sure some of the other accusations stick. It was always pretty clear from what I remember (I used to read the library books on the train to school back in the nineties) that the women he was with were giving as good as they were getting - there was a lot of adultery but most of it was sex as fun rather than either side getting into a relationship. He's a likeable rogue really from what I remember.

The plots are quite good, and the antiques world lore is spot on - it inspired a habit I still have today of wandering into provincial salerooms and seeing what I can pick up.

I was always under the impression that he was in the choir because it was a way to pick up women, and because most of the books were written in the 80s, he often didn't have a car, usually not a TV, and the church and the pub essentially were the social life of his tiny village.

Bit whatever else they are, they're not Ian McShane and Dudley Sutton getting into scrapes in the East Anglian countryside - they're harder edged, more violent, and a bit colder overall. Jonathan Gash really ought to go down as one of the UK's better late 20th century crimewriters on the strength of the best of them I think - off the top of my head The Judas Pair and Gold From Gemini.

There was also a late autumn summer at the beginning of the 2000s where about 3 new novels appeared, which were uniformly excellent.

But I think he is basically Christian - he tends to do the right thing eventually at a cost to himself - but it's more a reflection of the milieu within which he lives.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Re Sayers re Wimsey:
IIRC, she thought there was nothing less likely than him becoming/being a Christian. However, reading the books, I disagree.

IIRC, Sherlock Holmes (in the original stories) does acknowledge "Providence". Interestingly, in one of the Holmes movies (maybe "Sherlock Holmes' Smarter Brother"?), Moriarty has a kneeler with a coin-operated confessional--and it always pronounces him "absolved"!
[Smile]

And I, too, very much like Inspectors Hathaway and Lewis. I wouldn't mind hanging out with them. I care about Morse, but I probably wouldn't want to hang out with him--unless at the opera or a concert.

Oh, and Poirot is quietly Catholic.

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:

quote:
Originally posted by Sarasa:
Ricardus said:

quote:
Does Lord Peter Wimsey count as low-key?
I think he does. One of the things that annoyed me about the Jill Paton Walsh continuations was that Wimsey appears to become an agnostic, certainly his attitude to religion changed.
Though Lord Peter is nominally CofE -- he reads the Lesson in Church in 'Busman's Honeymoon' -- he betrays his lack of familiarity with church services at least twice -- in 'The Nine Tailors' he gets confused saying the Our Father in the New Year service and later admits his unfamiliarity with the Burial Office. However, in one of the short stories he shows is familiarity with the Kensit-ite protests.
Sayers is quoted as saying that Wimsey isn't a Christian, but a 'Whig gentlemen born slightly out of his time, not at all sure that to claim having a soul isn't presumptuous.' (I'm quoting from memory and this may not be quite right.)

A minor character in the Wimsey series was specifically noted as a Christian: his friend and eventual brother-in-law, Charles Parker was known to be a non-conformist who liked reading Christian commentary in his free time. He also didn't like women who swore.

Posted by Sarasa (# 12271) on :

It's interesting that most of the characters we've mentioned are detectives.
What annoys me is when a character is religious to fill a plot problem. I'm reading Andy Weir's The Martian at them moment. I'm only a quater of the way through it so maybe I'm being unfair, but Mark manages to make fire using a wooden cross a devout Catholic astronaut left behind. Most devout Catholics I know would be hanging onto to their rosary beads, or maybe carry a small crucifix, largesh wooden crosses don't sound right. Then there's the can't get divorced becuase my wife's a Catholic line....

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Yes, quite. There are also characters who are Christians, or a particular type of Christian, to emphasise their 'otherness' - Patrick O'Brian's Dr Maturin, for example, whose Catholicism is of a piece with his illegitimacy and Irish/Catalan background in establishing him as a contrast with hearty bluff English Jack Aubrey - but I didn't mean tham. I meant characters who happen to be Christian in one way or another who could quite easily, for the purposes of the novel, not be. Then there is the in-between category of those whose religion is a more integral part of their character but as part of rounding it out- Minty in England Made Me, mentioned by Betjemaniac, is rather seedy and shady and, I had always assumed, gay, and a particular type of Anglo-Catholicism would seem to be a natural development there.

Hadn't meant to restrict this to detectives but a couple of thoughts on Wimsey- hadn't noticed that Parker is a serious Nonconformist, by the way. I'd have thought that Wimsey's Christian observance and knowledge would be no more than might be expected of a man of his class and generation- a slightly sceptical goodwill towards of a social institution- perhaps in the tradition that ken used to call 'English state Shinto'. His magnificent occasional sidekick Miss Climpson, however, is an elderly and devout Anglo-Catholic of a kind with which Sayers must haave been very familiar.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

Back to Lovejoy - it was the violence, not the womanising I didn't like. I personally wouldn't want to be womanised by a man capable of the violence I read in the book I read.

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

You are rolling around several overlapping things here. Yes, many detectives are religious, either overtly or in the background. The form seems to demand it. Mysteries always present a status quo (a business, a town, a culture) which is upset by a crime, often a murder. Either someone from within steps up to set the disjointedness right, or someone comes in from outside to do it. If the outsider is police then they are deputed by society to fix things; but an unofficial investigator needs motivation. If there is no personal connection (you killed my father!) then you need some other drive to get the detective off the dime, and religion works well.

The way religion creeps into vampire stories is also a no brainer, as long as vampires are defeated by crosses. (I see here an opening for some novels about a Zen Buddhist vampire...)

And finally, all historical fictions that pretend to accuracy have religious elements. How could you write a novel about the Crusades without Catholicism and Islam? This is the great flaw in the novels of Georgette Heyer. She overlaid her own un-interest in religion onto a culture (Regency) which assiduously kept all the outward forms of religion.

So if you are ISO quietly backgroundish Christians you do have to eliminate all of the above.

Here's a good one that no one has mentioned:
Curse of Chalion, by Lois Bujold, one of the great fantasy novels of our generation. She invented out of whole cloth an entire religion which completely drives the book's culture and action. It is not Catholicism, not Trinitarian, not earthly in any way. However, it is powerfully redolent of Christianity. There's a master's thesis in there, outlining all the points of correspondence. And the hero is, essentially, a saint, by any definition of the word.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Though I can't see that Rebus's Christianity provides any significant motivation for him. One or two of le Carre's minor Christians do seem to be motivated to some extent by their faith or at least by a moral conscience which might be associated with it.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
... And finally, all historical fictions that pretend to accuracy have religious elements. How could you write a novel about the Crusades without Catholicism and Islam? This is the great flaw in the novels of Georgette Heyer. She overlaid her own un-interest in religion onto a culture (Regency) which assiduously kept all the outward forms of religion ....

That was a major point where the BBC series of the White Queen set in the second half of the Wars of the Roses fell down. Although there were bishops floating around etc. either the original writer or the person who had turned it into a script didn't really seem to have any sense of how religion meshed into peoples' psyches and the whole sitzimleben of the period. It was treated as though it was no more than part of the period decor, like the costumes or the style of tableware.

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

Yeah -- when you see something like that you are powerfully reminded that modern TV and movies are (duh!) targeted to a modern audience. They are 21st century works, with a light overlay of costume and history. You can get a better view of this phenomenon by viewing, or reading, a historical drama that was written or made long ago. Shakespeare's history plays make no pretense of being actually historical. Or peruse a really old historical novel -- I had occasion to read Mika Waltari's The Egyptian some time ago. It is powerfully reminiscent of the Eisenhower administration, even though it is set in ancient Egypt.

Posted by Helen-Eva (# 15025) on :

A number of Terry Pratchett's Discworld novels contain characters who belong to the religion of the Great God Om which is quite obviously a sort of riff on christianity. I think the early ones are very negative protrayals but his attitude seems to have mellowed in the later books.

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

In one of Rex Stout's Nero Wolfe murder mysteries (I forget which one), a character who is a communicant at St. Thomas Fifth Avenue, New York, observes that Good Friday is not a day on which to contemplate human failings.

(I disagree -- Good Friday is most certainly a day on which to do just that!)

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
One or two of le Carre's minor Christians do seem to be motivated to some extent by their faith or at least by a moral conscience which might be associated with it.

Both you and Betjemaniac have mentioned this; who are they?

There's a retired Baptist pastor in The Honourable Schoolboy, who I find Le Carré gets mostly wrong, Rick in A Perfect Spy (which, chronologically, opens in a Baptist church), Maria Ostrakova in Smiley's People... I'm struggling to think of any more.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Yes, I think he does get the retired Baptist pastor largely wrong. But there are references here and there to e.g. slightly bit-part civil servants as being motivated by e.g. a high Anglican moral conscience (can't remember where that one is or his name: I think it's in The Night Manager). Overall, though, I do have a sense of le Carre's fictional world as one in which there are people who go to church and believe, even if there aren't lots of them and they tend not to take centre stage.

Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
One or two of le Carre's minor Christians do seem to be motivated to some extent by their faith or at least by a moral conscience which might be associated with it.
Both you and Betjemaniac have mentioned this; who are they?

There's a retired Baptist pastor in The Honourable Schoolboy, who I find Le Carré gets mostly wrong, Rick in A Perfect Spy (which, chronologically, opens in a Baptist church), Maria Ostrakova in Smiley's People... I'm struggling to think of any more.

Strictly speaking I'm not sure I limited it to the *minor* characters...

IMO the BBC were onto something when they closed each episode of TTSS with the nunc dimittis. As a 34 year old ex public schoolboy I read his novels as a particularly English form of endorsing subversivism.

The overwhelming majority of his seedy characters (perhaps rather more succinctly observed in one sentence by Bruce Robinson as living in a house with "Vim under the sink and both bars on") are exactly like the ones I was at school with 15 years ago (for me) - sneering their way through yet utterly familiar with the cadences of the BCP at school, yet now utterly unselfconsciously trundling off to church on a Sunday morning.

I suppose I come to his novels with the assumption that pretty well everyone (certainly on the British side) is a church goer, placed somewhere up or down the scale of workaday hypocrisy. But perhaps that is a milieu that only exists these days amongst the public schoolboys (as in the default is that you will go unless you don't), the rest of the nation has moved on.

I don't know whether everyone is like this (I have to say I doubt it), but I read Le Carre like, warts and all, he's writing about me and my friends.

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

Oh, here's another great one: Cordelia Naismith Vorkosigan. She is the mother of Miles Vorkosigan, hero of a long series of novels by Lois Bujold. These are space opera. Cordelia is noted for being the voice of sanity in a militaristic culture. She is also the protagonist in the two prequel novels, which are collected as Shards of Honor. Samle chapters here, but be warned, they're like crack cocaine between book covers.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Helen-Eva:
A number of Terry Pratchett's Discworld novels contain characters who belong to the religion of the Great God Om which is quite obviously a sort of riff on christianity. I think the early ones are very negative protrayals but his attitude seems to have mellowed in the later books.

The religion changes. Without getting into too many spoilers, I'll say pay attention to Brutha in "Small Gods", Rev. Mightily Oats in "Carpe Jugulum", and some fine points in "Unseen Academicals".

ETA: Best to read them in that order, IMHO, if you can.

[ 11. October 2015, 22:06: Message edited by: Golden Key ]

Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :

I've always thought Mightily Oats would make a great Shipmate. Surprised no-one has used the name yet!

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Cool! Now imagine Granny Weatherwax and Nanny Ogg! (Well, we do already have a Nanny Ogg. You don't think...?)
[Biased]

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

I think I'll add Mark, from "I Heard The Owl Call My Name" by Margaret Craven.

He's a young Anglican priest, sent to a remote area of British Columbia, Canada, to serve First Peoples and others in the area. He has a lot to learn--and does. He mostly handles it all in a very low-key way.

Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :

The evangelical Christian salesman in the movie The Big Kahuna isn't exactly low-key, in fact, he's a bit of a zealot. However, the script's handling of his character could be seen as low-key, in that, while his religious activites are central to the story and portrayed with a measure of(somewhat anbiguous) symapthy, the point of the movie does not seem to be converting the audience.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

Kenwritez said that film should be mandatory viewing for church high school youth groups.

I wonder if the " subtle Christian" in this case is the playwright, because he does seem to be making a pointed statement about the character of evangelical Christianity.

Posted by jacobsen (# 14998) on :

How about Brother Cadfael* in the Ellis Peters series? His religion is quite fundamental, but low key and practical. It contrasts quite amusingly with the overt religiosity (and hypocrisy) of other monks such as Brother Jerome, who, with the utmost malice, delight in pointing out the failings of others.

* I know, another detective

[ 13. October 2015, 11:03: Message edited by: jacobsen ]

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

--I was thinking of mentioning Cadfael. [Smile]

I know him from the TV series. He was very compassionate. (Plus he knew about herbs--a good thing. [Smile]

)

My favorite moment in the series was when he needed to talk to a woman who'd been the mistress of a nobleman, and borne his son. He approached those topics very delicately. She'd become a (lay?) nun. She smiled and said "There is room in my life now for neither pride nor shame".

--Another good one is Gletha, from the book "Gletha The Goat Lady" by (something) Robbenholt. You might say she's a Christian witch. [Smile]

She's a healer and helper in a dirt poor little town. IIRC, the book was inspired by the author's childhood; but, over the years, he'd shaped it so much that he couldn't remember what was fact. Anyway, a good book.

--Also Susan Sowerby, Dickon's mom, in "The Secret Garden" by Frances Hodgson Burnett. There's one particular section, about halfway down this page at Online-Literature.

Colin is a boy who's been bedridden, wholly miserable, and made everyone else miserable. But he's gotten well. He refers to the energy that healed him as "magic". He, and Dickon, and Mary, and Ben Weatherstaff are in the garden, talking with Susan.

quote:
"Do you believe in Magic?" asked Colin after he had explained about Indian fakirs. "I do hope you do."

"That I do, lad," she answered. "I never knowed it by that name but what does th' name matter? I warrant they call it a different name i' France an' a different one i' Germany. Th' same thing as set th' seeds swellin' an' th' sun shinin' made thee a well lad an' it's th' Good Thing. It isn't like us poor fools as think it matters if us is called out of our names. Th' Big Good Thing doesn't stop to worrit, bless thee. It goes on makin' worlds by th' million—worlds like us. Never thee stop believin' in th' Big Good Thing an' knowin' th' world's full of it—an' call it what tha' likes. Tha' wert singin' to it when I come into th' garden."

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Cadfael's a good character but his Christianity is well-advertised and directly related to who he is as a fictional creation- he does what he does because he's in that particular setting. What I had in mind was more characters whose Christianity was more incidental, who are Christians rather as they might be tall or have grey eyes: an attribute which some people have.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

"The Secret Garden" is odd in that the invoked deity, as I recall, is Krishna.

Posted by Anglicano (# 18476) on :

Slightly surprised- though there's no reason why I should be- to discover that Ian Rankin's Inspector Rebus, though not a churchgoer, thinks of himself as a Christian.

Rebus is portrayed as a non-churchgoing Calvinist. I was irritated that in one television version he was a Roman Catholic. I complained but received no reply.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

I understand that there's a lot of Christianity (and sometimes other religions) in the crime/detective genre, either critical or broadly affirmative. Crime fiction is inherently about sin and probable punishment, with an emphasis on confessing and repenting.

OTOH, organised religious beliefs can themselves be seen as transgressive and contrary to natural order. Fictional detectives, of course, are tasked with restoring order to the world, of following apparently irrational hunches, of seeing secret signs and uncovering hidden knowledge.

All this being the case, it's unsurprising that these novels make use of religious themes and characters, though not always in the most orthodox sense.

On the whole, though, novelists aren't going to say much about orthodox Christian spirituality unless it has a particular bearing on the story, or helps to round characters out and give them more 'believability'. The novel is, arguably, a naturally secular genre, and we live in a secular age. Christianity provides useful imagery and problems for the Western novel to engage with, but the ordinariness of an ordinary Christian life, so to speak, isn't easy novelistic material.

I find that the postcolonial/Black British novel set within a Christian cultural setting is more likely to make passing reference to the ordinary Christian life, simply because this kind of life is more visible in such settings, and making reference to it helps to create depth and realism. Most mainstream Western novels can avoid mentioning Christianity and Christian characters entirely and yet not seem unrealistic.

Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Kenwritez said that film should be mandatory viewing for church high school youth groups.

I wonder if the " subtle Christian" in this case is the playwright, because he does seem to be making a pointed statement about the character of evangelical Christianity.

Yeah, it's hard to know how exactly to take that character. On the one hand, you could read him as a stereotypical fundamentalist buffoon, who can't stop blabbing about Jesus, even when it messes up his employment situation.

On the other hand, he's not painted all that ridiculously, and even non-evangelicals can probably sympathize with the desire not to pimp- out sincerely held beliefs(whatever they may be) in the service of corporate interests.

Posted by Anglicano (# 18476) on :

It seems to me that Roman Catholics in books written by people of that persuasion (especially converts such as Waugh, Chesterton and Greene, or Piers Paul Read, the son of a convert) are more likely to come across as "worthy" than the rather flawed Anglicans portrayed by CofE writers like Barbara Pym, Catherine Fox and PD James.

Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on :

Waugh's 'Brideshead Revisited' portrays an astonishing range of Christians (mostly RC). Almost all of them come off pretty badly IME. The establishment (if you will) are portrayed rather brutally and elicit little sympathy. At the end, only Charles (the outsider looking in), Sebastian (the insider trying to get out) and Cordelia (the clear-sighted innocent) remain.

It has been said that Waugh's conversion interfered with his fiction-writing. I think BR proves that -- if one could cut the preachy bits it would be a better book. At least, IMO

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anglicano:
It seems to me that Roman Catholics in books written by people of that persuasion (especially converts such as Waugh, Chesterton and Greene, or Piers Paul Read, the son of a convert) are more likely to come across as "worthy" than the rather flawed Anglicans portrayed by CofE writers like Barbara Pym, Catherine Fox and PD James.

Chesterton writes worthy Catholics, although I think that's the nature of the genre (Father Brown has to have some reason for getting involved and attending to a parishioner is an easy one).
Waugh and Greene a little less so; I gather Brighton Rock has a very unworthy Catholic indeed.

Muriel Spark, also a convert, often includes Roman Catholics who are less than worthy. (The Abbess of Crewe being an obvious example.)

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :

quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
It has been said that Waugh's conversion interfered with his fiction-writing. I think BR proves that -- if one could cut the preachy bits it would be a better book. At least, IMO

Looking at Waugh's career, I see Handful of Dust and Scoop are both post-conversion. And the Sword of Honour trilogy is I think of comparable standard. It's just that in Brideshead Revisited he's low on inspiration and puts in his thoughts on religion undigested.

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

Here's a good one: A Clergyman's Daughter by George Orwell. It's an early work, and semi-autobiographical -- you can feel the thing come to life when the protagonist goes hop-picking in Kent. Dorothy, the daughter of the title, is indeed a Christian at the beginning of the work. Her faith serves mainly as a plot complication, to keep her miserable and subservient and to supply a reason for her fear of sex, which essentially kicks off the plot by supplying a not-very-convincing mechanism for her amnesia. At the end, after appalling adventures through which she somehow manages to retain her virtue, she is right back where she began again, only sans faith.

Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I understand that there's a lot of Christianity (and sometimes other religions) in the crime/detective genre, either critical or broadly affirmative. Crime fiction is inherently about sin and probable punishment, with an emphasis on confessing and repenting.

OTOH, organised religious beliefs can themselves be seen as transgressive and contrary to natural order. Fictional detectives, of course, are tasked with restoring order to the world, of following apparently irrational hunches, of seeing secret signs and uncovering hidden knowledge.

All this being the case, it's unsurprising that these novels make use of religious themes and characters, though not always in the most orthodox sense.

I think it's also the case that detective novels, especially the Golden Age type, tend to have large casts of characters whose actions are ultimately driven by the author's need to set up a puzzle. To hide their artificial nature the author needs to do a lot of characterisation - and one way to do that is to bolt on some religious feelings.

Posted by Egeria (# 4517) on :

Jane Langton's detective characters Homer and Mary Kelly are certainly good low-key Christians, and the stories are infused with a spiritual atmosphere.

D.M. Greenwood's Theodora Braithwaite is an Anglican deacon and many clergy and church support staff appear in her mysteries.

In Barbara Hambly's excellent historical mysteries (the "Free Man of Color" series--she has another series that I've not read), the main character, Ben January, is a Roman Catholic who's particularly devoted to the Virgin Mary.

I stay away from self-consciously "Christian" novels, as the writing is usually execrable ("the pits" as John McEnroe would say) and the plotting simple-minded.

Posted by Anglicano (# 18476) on :

quote:
I stay away from self-consciously "Christian" novels, as the writing is usually execrable ("the pits" as John McEnroe would say) and the plotting simple-minded.

Please could you be more specific? For example, I think that Catherine Fox, wife of the Dean of Liverpool, writes well.

(Code fix)

[ 16. October 2015, 07:54: Message edited by: Firenze ]

Posted by Anglicano (# 18476) on :

Susan Hill is a good low key Anglican writer. I've never read any Susan Howatch, though my late sister liked her. Fay Weldon is also Anglican, and features in that worthy collection, "Why I am still an Anglican".

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

Anglicano, the little " " icon at the top of a Shipmate's post will obligingly paste it into a new post with ascription and quotation formatting. You can edit it down to the relevant section, and then add your own comment.

It helps clarify the conversation.

Firenze
Heaven Host

Posted by beatmenace (# 16955) on :

quote:

Rebus is portrayed as a non-churchgoing Calvinist. I was irritated that in one television version he was a Roman Catholic. I complained but received no reply.

Rebus has a close friend and adviser in the earlier books who is a Catholic Priest. He does explore (as much as Rankin is bothered to, that is) his issues of faith in a Catholic context in the stories so its not such a great leap in the TV adaptions - although as you rightly say its not where he originally comes from in 'Knots and Crosses'

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

To clarify, there is an entire genre 'Christian fiction' which may overlap with novels about Christianity or which have Christian characters in them. They are however not equivalent.

Christian fiction is specifically marketed to people who don't want to encounter a long list of things in their leisure reading: profanity, overt sex, violence, etc. (But, you say, then what's the point of reading novels at all? It is certainly a bubble, and some people do not want to be challenged.) One of many Christian Fiction groups. There are entire publishing houses, entire bookstores, devoted to meeting the needs of this market niche.

Interestingly, some proponents of Christian fiction have problems with works that we would ordinarily say are blatantly Christian. They don't like the Narnia books, for instance. Or The Lord of the Rings.

Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :

Brenda wrote:

quote:

Interestingly, some proponents of Christian fiction have problems with works that we would ordinarily say are blatantly Christian. They don't like the Narnia books, for instance. Or The Lord of the Rings. [/QB]

I've often wondered how the more high-brow Christian cultural conservatives, who for example lament that students don't spend enough time reading Shakespeare, interact with their more plebian co-ideologues, who pull their kids out of public-school so as to protect them from encountering stories that contain magic.

I once read a highbrow try to square the circle on that, by saying that Christians need only object to things that portray magic in a positive light(eg. Dungeons And Dragons). But that still leaves a lot of classical mythology and Shakespeare(eg. A Midsummer Nights Dream) on the Do Not Read list.

[ 16. October 2015, 17:43: Message edited by: Stetson ]

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

I can't be expected to square this circle either. I'm a member of SFWA!
I hold with JRRT, who said that it all came around to the same thing in the end. God is Lord of angels and men -- and elves. He made us, and therefore all we make. We are merely sub-creators, playing in His sandbox.

Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I can't be expected to square this circle either. I'm a member of SFWA!

For the record, I don't think you are obligated to square the circle, and I doubt the highbrow cultural conservatives feel obligated either. I suspect the alliance between the "More Shakespeare!!" crowd and the "OMG, wizards!! Run!!" crowd is one of cynical convenience, arising out of a shared antipathy to modern education.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

In detective mode, Harry Kemelman's Rabbi books include a catholic policeman who has discussions about faith with the Rabbi.

And there's James Runcie's Sidney Chambers, but he's a vicar, so probably doesn't count.

Posted by jacobsen (# 14998) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
To clarify, there is an entire genre 'Christian fiction' which may overlap with novels about Christianity or which have Christian characters in them. They are however not equivalent.
............

Interestingly, some proponents of Christian fiction have problems with works that we would ordinarily say are blatantly Christian. They don't like the Narnia books, for instance. Or The Lord of the Rings.

Or the fantasy worlds of Madeleine L'Engle.e.g. Many waters She came in for a lot of flack from the Bible Belt.
magic, you know....

[ 17. October 2015, 08:17: Message edited by: jacobsen ]

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
There is an entire genre 'Christian fiction' which may overlap with novels about Christianity or which have Christian characters in them. They are however not equivalent.

Christian fiction is specifically marketed to people who don't want to encounter a long list of things in their leisure reading: profanity, overt sex, violence, etc. (But, you say, then what's the point of reading novels at all? It is certainly a bubble, and some people do not want to be challenged.) One of many Christian Fiction groups. There are entire publishing houses, entire bookstores, devoted to meeting the needs of this market niche.

This genre doesn't seem to have much of a life in the UK, probably because the market for it is so much smaller. If you go to Christian bookshops here and look for fiction the vast majority of the titles appear to be from the USA.

American fiction about modern Amish women seems to be a popular sub-genre, and it has a prominent presence in UK Christian bookshops. I bought two such novels from a charity shop recently, and it'll be interesting to see what their appeal is.

African American church-based novels also have a following here. You don't find them in Christian bookshops (maybe in London?) but I've been to inner city libraries that have quite a large selection. I should think they appeal mostly to British people (probably women) of African Caribbean descent. Black British fiction contains a lot of religious characters, but you don't seem to get church-based fiction as such.

[ 17. October 2015, 12:41: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

I have never read any of them, although they have their own section (!) in my local public library. An important part of fiction for me is that sense of possibility -- that anything, anything at all, could happen if only the author is clever and creative enough. The idea that it must end HEA or HFN (Happily Ever After or Happy For Now, the only allowable endings for the romance genre) or that salvation must be achieved by the last page is anathema to me.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The idea that [...] salvation must be achieved by the last page is anathema to me.

This is one reason why even some Christian authors say that the 'Christian novel' is actually an impossibility, or at least an extremely problematic idea.

I think conversion, or just simple, unproblematised faith works more easily in the short story, but the novel is a troublesome beast. The famous literary critic Georg Lukacs said that 'the novel is the epic of a world abandoned by God'. This could mean a variety of things, but it certainly indicates that a neat Christian conclusion is unacceptable, at least for a 'good' novel.

Mind you, 'happily ever after' is not only acceptable but is required in the extremely popular romance genre. You could say that in some sense concluding with a successful love affair is the secular alternative to the Christian conversion narrative. And it's much more culturally tolerable in fiction too - even 'good' fiction.

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

Well, I have ended a novel with the troubled protagonist's conversion. But it took a couple hundred thousand words to orchestrate him there, and it was a very idiosyncratic journey indeed. I've only ever done it that once. I have had Christian protagonists, and their religion has not slowed them down for one tiny second in exploring the full panoply of sins open to humanity, and sometimes adding creative twists of their own. So I guess they are not Christian fiction.

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