Ship of Fools: Smoking

Thread: Smoking Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :

Just heard on the news that the Australian Labor Party has promised to raise the price of a packet of cigarettes by 60% if they win the next election.

My father was a heavy smoker, and I still find the smell of cigarette smoke evokes a feeling of domesticity and childhood security.

He claimed that during WWII he worked his way through a whole New Testament that his mother had given him when he went away, using the pages as cigarette papers.

These days I find myself feeling very judgmental and dismissive of cigarette smokers, particularly young ones, which is not consistent because I still enjoy the occasional cheap cigar (on the pattern of Spurgeon, who claimed to smoke cigars "to the glory of God").

At university I smoked a pipe for a while, presenting, I imagine, a fairly ludicrous spectacle.

As a young Christian I was amused by preachers who never watched their diets or exercised, but who condemned smoking because it harmed Christians' bodies, the temple of the Holy Spirit.

Any smokers or ex-smokers out there who want to share their experiences?

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

Raising taxes has been proven to have a depressive effect, so I'd go for it. What happens in the states, where the taxes vary by state, is that people develop a lucrative business in cigarette smuggling.

Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :

E-cigarettes have been very successful in helping people reduce and quit - despite fears about their lack of regulation. Worked well for me. Now if I want an occasional nicotine hit I buy one - same price as a packet of fags, or slightly cheaper, anyway. I find I do it less and less often though.

Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :

I loved smoking. From the very first drag, it seemed to be exactly what my brain needed -- to focus, to relax, to ease anxiety. I think I was probably always a little ADHD, back before the condition had a name beyond, "Doesn't pay attention in class" on every report card, and the nicotine was a little like self medication

So I smoked two packs (40) cigarettes a day for 25 years and then finally quit. It's now been 23 years tobacco-free, but I still miss them and feel like my quality of life dropped when I quit and never quite made it back to the same level of contentment.

I'm sure lung cancer would feel worse, though.

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

One problem with raising the price of cigarettes is that the cost will be borne disproportionately by the poor. They have a far higher rate of smoking than those who are better off.

I have never smoked, but AIUI, it is tranquilizing. Given the fact that the lives of the poor tend to be much more stressful, it's natural that they should smoke more. I think that many of them will give up other things before they give up tobacco.

Moo

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

The city council here is debating and likely will pass a bylaw banning extending the ban to all parks from buildings, and increasing the distance I think to 10 m from any doorway.

E-cigarettes are to be included. Most support this. We are finding the e-cigarettes are being used by the young, and while people do indeed use them to stop smoking, the growing segment is the under 18 years old group, and First Nations (North American Indians).

[tangent]
The reference to "fag" even when referring to cigarettes is startling within my western Canadian context.
[/tangent]

Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
E-cigarettes have been very successful in helping people reduce and quit - despite fears about their lack of regulation. Worked well for me. Now if I want an occasional nicotine hit I buy one - same price as a packet of fags, or slightly cheaper, anyway. I find I do it less and less often though.

I am not clear about how they work.

Was talking just recently to friends who had relations visiting from the UK, who were disappointed to find that Australian e-cigarettes didn't have the same kick.

Do they vary on things like nicotine content?

Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
One problem with raising the price of cigarettes is that the cost will be borne disproportionately by the poor. They have a far higher rate of smoking than those who are better off.

I have never smoked, but AIUI, it is tranquilizing. Given the fact that the lives of the poor tend to be much more stressful, it's natural that they should smoke more. I think that many of them will give up other things before they give up tobacco.

Moo

There was a riot in a prison here recently after rumours that cigarettes were going to be banned.

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
There was a riot in a prison here recently after rumours that cigarettes were going to be banned.

They are banned in provincial jails here (sentences of less than 2 years) and in federal jail buildings since 2006 with a total ban on smoking in 2008 in all prisons. The rioting will pass.

Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:

quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
There was a riot in a prison here recently after rumours that cigarettes were going to be banned.
They are banned in provincial jails here (sentences of less than 2 years) and in federal jail buildings since 2006 with a total ban on smoking in 2008 in all prisons. The rioting will pass.

Any research on how many stay off cigarettes after release?

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

The first time I ever saw an e-cigarette was at a small Shipmeet several years ago. We were all furious that a man was blatantly smoking in the restaurant and complained to the manager, who explained to us that it was not a real cigarette. (I believe that e-cigarettes are now banned as well, but they were almost unheard of then.)

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

I never smoke tobacco.

Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on :

Never smoked but that comment made me realise I have never even been offered tobacco although I have been asked for a light (and considered carrying one).

Jengie

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

I'm a bit with Twilight. On the while, I really enjoyed smoking: preferably things like Players Navy Cut, Senior Service, Sweet Afton, Gitanes, someimtes Turkish cigarettes (I had what must have been one of the last packets of Benson & Hedges Turkish ever made, and Sullivans once)Lovely. Enjoyed the cigarettes and enjoyed the atmosphere of a good tobacconist. Enjoyed the connection that you made when having a cigarette with someone else. Smoked a pipe at one time too.
But Mrs A sometimes didn't like the smell, and it's an expensive habit, and most importantly it may well kill you in a rather nasty way. So I gave up. but if it wasn't for those three things, I'd be cheerfully smoking today.

Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
E-cigarettes have been very successful in helping people reduce and quit - despite fears about their lack of regulation. Worked well for me. Now if I want an occasional nicotine hit I buy one - same price as a packet of fags, or slightly cheaper, anyway. I find I do it less and less often though.
I am not clear about how they work.

Was talking just recently to friends who had relations visiting from the UK, who were disappointed to find that Australian e-cigarettes didn't have the same kick.

Do they vary on things like nicotine content?

It is basically a cigarette shapped nicotine inhaler. Strength varies and they are not currently regulated as a medicinal product.

There are mixed views on there regulation - they seem to work better than conventional nicotine replacement therapies in helping people quit and reduce. However, work on their health effects is limited (though they are definitely less harmful than cigarettes) and there is a concern they may renormalise smoking.

Most premises that won't allow smoking inside don't allow ecigs inside either.

Some medical groups are arguing against banning ecigs because they are so successful and the evidence of long term take up by the young is also currently very weak.

[ 24. November 2015, 11:28: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

A brief web search for research shows very mixed results for e-cigs and smoking cessation. Some say they help, some say they don't with effects to increase smoking rather than limit. Perhaps some people are helped and some are hindered. The conern about children using them as a gateway to smoking is discussed. Doublethink, it is more worrisome here re children than your statement, perhaps jurisdiction dependent?

I was wrong about the timing of our city council vote. All city owned property and workspace ban on e-cigs was passed last night.

Kaplan, I don't know that bans of smoking in jail causes post jail cessation. Something about the people wanting to quit.

[ 24. November 2015, 12:41: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]

Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on :

D. and I both smoked regularly until about 10 years ago, when (a) the pubs here banned it; and (b) we decided it was a colossal expense that we really couldn't afford, so we gave up. We used patches - I doubt that I'd have been able to do it on my own - but as our preferred brand was so low-tar, the patches were probably giving us more nicotine than the cigarettes were. The only real side-effect I noticed was several completely unrelated but surreal dreams every night, presumably caused by getting a "hit" of nicotine in one's sleep ... [Paranoid]

These days we have the odd puff, but although I quite enjoy it, it really wouldn't matter if I never had another, which suits me fine.

Having said that, there are memories associated with the smell of assorted tobacco-smoke (the dressing-rooms of the old theatre back home springs to mind) which wouldn't be replicated now, as they're all sterile and smoke-free.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

I smoke. I find it helps to calm me, which as someone with an anxiety disorder I find very helpful.

I do, however, fully support any measures aimed at eradicating the habit in the young. If that includes e-cigs then so be it. I've only tried one of them once, and my impression was that it was somewhat like a shisha pipe - pleasant, but insufficient to slake my desire for nicotine.

Posted by tessaB (# 8533) on :

Totally with you Marvin. I used to smoke over 20 a day and have switched to an ecig about three years ago. I still have one or two 'real' fags a day as there is something about it that just satisfies me more. I comfort myself with the thought that 2 is better than 20!

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

The thing about smoking calming your nerves is a myth. It just appears to be a stress reliever because when you're addicted to nicotine, you become stressed when you've not had a smoke for a while, so getting the "fix" of a cigarette removes the stress and anxiety (i.e. withdrawal symptoms) of not having a fag. Kick the habit and most of that stress and anxiety goes too.

I speak as an ex smoker who has actually experienced this.

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

I was one of those fortunate folk who was able to enjoy a roll up or cigarette at times, but never seemed unable to do without it.

I don't smoke now because the people in my life don't like it. I'm not too sure smoking would be as enjoyable now as it used to be because of the unrelenting demonization.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
The thing about smoking calming your nerves is a myth. It just appears to be a stress reliever because when you're addicted to nicotine, you become stressed when you've not had a smoke for a while, so getting the "fix" of a cigarette removes the stress and anxiety (i.e. withdrawal symptoms) of not having a fag. Kick the habit and most of that stress and anxiety goes too.

I speak as an ex smoker who has actually experienced this.

I suspect there's a physical element there too- the act of sucking on something and breathing deeply to inhale- and also a bit of displacement activity- the business of getting a fag out, lighting it, taking time to smoke it rather than do anything else.
I certainly used to find that smoking a pipe had a calming effect, on me and on those around me (e.g. when doing door duty at an evening centre for homeless people), probably because it is a very unhurried thing to do.

[ 24. November 2015, 21:42: Message edited by: Albertus ]

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

My wife's experience with the e-cig was that it became an addiction of its own in a way that the gum is not. Not only was she getting a fix, it came with the physical act she was conditioned to, and she could take a drag just about any time she wanted. She had to quit after a few months. (She's been "quitting" cigarettes for 6 years, and will probably be a lifetime quitter. She goes from regular gum to nicotine gum to the occasional relapse into regular cigarettes, usually to match the stress level at work.)

I always say that not starting in the first place was the best thing I ever did for myself. It helps that I can't handle a nicotine buzz- even a small cigar has me sweating, turning pale green, and fighting back the urge to vomit.

Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :

But ecigs are much less likely to give you you lung cancer, so you're still be better off addicted them than to actual cigarettes.

Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :

http://www.theweek.co.uk/58735/e-cigarettes-should-be-prescribed-on-the-nhs-says-health-body

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
http://www.theweek.co.uk/58735/e-cigarettes-should-be-prescribed-on-the-nhs-says-health-body

quote:
from your link
WHO has previously said that their safety is "illusive", noting that it is impossible to know what effect they may have on the body because "the chemicals used in electronic cigarettes have not been fully disclosed, and there are no adequate data on their emissions".
Rather like cigarettes in the 50s and 60s, we really need to look at [advertising] and, I believe, ban it, to stop them advertising in a way that attracts children,"

This one is interesting: Burning Desire: from those wonderful folks who brought you lung cancer…

[ 25. November 2015, 01:11: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]

Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :

28th May 1979 I cold turkey-ed from 40 a day to zero! I had given up before [many, many times, as Dame Celia Molestrangler would say] but that was the last one [so far] courtesy of a major hangover which left me on a diet of soggy cornflakes and weak tea for several days.

These days I can't abide the smell most of the time but occasionally get a whiff of smoke that makes me feel nostalgic.

Here the only place in which one can legally smoke is in a private home or vehicle - smoking anywhere else is an offence - and that applies to the whole, rather extensive, country.

As for 2 or 3 fags a day, I should be so lucky - but that is another subject altogether.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

The ban is not as extensive here, but all public transport, including planes, outside but within 10 metres of a place where food is served - restaurants, coffee shops, milk bars etc - office blocks, railway stations, the list goes on. No tobacco advertising and all products sold in plain wrappers from a cabinet with blank doors. Only 1 checkout at supermarkets and so forth.

The anti-smoking campaign here has been extremely effective in reducing smoking and the associated diseases. There are still some areas where smoking is tolerated. It seems largely a class thing, and also dependent upon origin. Chinese from East Asia are heavy smokers on arrival and remain so; their children born here are not. Smoking seems more predominant among young women than young men.

[ 25. November 2015, 01:35: Message edited by: Gee D ]

Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
...Smoking seems more predominant among young women than young men.

Not so here [very few women smoke but they do chew paan, etc.] but strikingly so in UK, or so I'm told by UK friends.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

I suspect the smoking among young people depends on class. The students I work with often smoke, both boys and girls. I usually work with young people, with a majority of boys, usual age group 14 to 16, often from a working class background. Of the staff there are a handful of smokers, both men and women, of different ethnic origins - Asian, Afro-Caribbean, Spanish and one white British. We have a number of Greek smokers around and only one Greek woman who doesn't. Those staff smokers are 50:50 male female.

I would add anecdotal concerns about young people using e-cigarettes too, having watched a couple of students. They were both definitely using them far more heavily than they would cigarettes and using them as an excuse to smoke inside - clouds of e-cigarette fumes - even though the rules forbade it. There were issues about cost, and access to the materials. This is a couple of 15-17 year olds.

Most of our young people who smoke come from homes where parents smoke. In school, preventing smoking amongst this peer group does not improve behaviour as they seem to come in addicted from the home environment, so the school rules force withdrawal every day.

Posted by Timothy the Obscure (# 292) on :

I smoked a pack a day from age 16-25. Thereafter, I would intermittently fall off the wagon and smoke from 0-5 cigarettes a day before quitting again for months at a time. I haven't touched one since August of 2003, and have no desire to, though I do kind of miss the ritualistic aspect of it. There was something about lighting up with that first cup of coffee in the morning, or the last smoke at night, (OK, especially after sex) that felt...meaningful, almost poetic.

On the other hand, I don't miss waking up in the morning with the feeling of a German Shepherd sitting on my chest and the taste of ashes in my mouth. However, I have no desire to punish people for smoking, and have a reflexive impulse to defend their right to pollute their own bodies against the prigs who want to control everything.

Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
last smoke at night, (OK, especially after sex)

"Do you smoke after sex?"

"I've never looked".

Sorry

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I loved smoking. From the very first drag, it seemed to be exactly what my brain needed -- to focus, to relax, to ease anxiety. I think I was probably always a little ADHD, back before the condition had a name beyond, "Doesn't pay attention in class" on every report card, and the nicotine was a little like self medication

Me too - for the same reasons. I have ADHD and found smoking gave me the focus and relaxation I needed. I gave up as soon as I knew I was pregnant with Boogiedog1 and have never smoked since.

But I still sniff deeply when I see someone lighting up - I love the smell!

Posted by Huia (# 3473) on :

Cigarettes are heavily taxed here costing over $1 per smoke. It would cost someone who smokes 20 a day around $7,400 a year, according to Quit Line, the government sponsored agency giving free advice and nicotine patches.

As Moo said, smokers here tend to be those with the least money to spend.

I try to avoid people smoking (usually encountered at bus stops), as it triggers asthma for me. I hate that because it comes across as judgemental.

Huia

[ 25. November 2015, 08:28: Message edited by: Huia ]

Posted by cattyish (# 7829) on :

I took on my brother's dog when he moved into his own council house. She was a lovely ginger collie cross and a 40 a day passive smoker. At first she tried repeatedly to take me out for a cigarette, but after a few weeks she settled in and got used to life without smoking.

After a few months, she started to sneeze repeatedly every time we passed a smoker. It was slightly embarrassing. When my brother visited she still went out with him sometimes, but only when she wanted a nose around the garden.

Cattyish, missing the smelly old beast.

Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
The thing about smoking calming your nerves is a myth. It just appears to be a stress reliever because when you're addicted to nicotine, you become stressed when you've not had a smoke for a while, so getting the "fix" of a cigarette removes the stress and anxiety (i.e. withdrawal symptoms) of not having a fag. Kick the habit and most of that stress and anxiety goes too.

I speak as an ex smoker who has actually experienced this.

I've been looking for a definitive answer on this and every article I read seems to contradict itself. Like
this one.
It begins by saying that nicotine goes straight to the brain causing relaxation, increased concentration, etc. Then later it says it doesn't really because stopping causes withdrawal which makes us anxious. It's like saying Prozac doesn't relieve anxiety because when you suddenly give it up, it makes you anxious.

OTOH I've read that experienced smokers unconsciously smoke in a manner to achieve the brain kick they need at the moment. Rapid smoking, short quick drags, stimulate the brain for tasks. Long, slow, deep drags, flood the brain with nicotine to the point of closing receptors and bringing on relaxation.

I don't think the jury is back on this yet. they've tried to ban smoking in mental hospitals and all hell has broken out. I think banning it in jail is cruel and unusual punishment.

Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
... the business of getting a fag out, lighting it, taking time to smoke it rather than do anything else ...

Absolutely. One of the hardest parts about giving up was what to do with my hands in the spaces when I'd have been lighting up.

A couple of friends used to smoke pipes, and they used to say they were really just smoking matches; the ritual of tapping out the tobacco and lighting up seemed more important than the pipe itself.

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:

quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
The thing about smoking calming your nerves is a myth. It just appears to be a stress reliever because when you're addicted to nicotine, you become stressed when you've not had a smoke for a while, so getting the "fix" of a cigarette removes the stress and anxiety (i.e. withdrawal symptoms) of not having a fag. Kick the habit and most of that stress and anxiety goes too.

I speak as an ex smoker who has actually experienced this.
I've been looking for a definitive answer on this and every article I read seems to contradict itself. Like
this one.
It begins by saying that nicotine goes straight to the brain causing relaxation, increased concentration, etc. Then later it says it doesn't really because stopping causes withdrawal which makes us anxious. It's like saying Prozac doesn't relieve anxiety because when you suddenly give it up, it makes you anxious.

OTOH I've read that experienced smokers unconsciously smoke in a manner to achieve the brain kick they need at the moment. Rapid smoking, short quick drags, stimulate the brain for tasks. Long, slow, deep drags, flood the brain with nicotine to the point of closing receptors and bringing on relaxation.

I don't think the jury is back on this yet. they've tried to ban smoking in mental hospitals and all hell has broken out. I think banning it in jail is cruel and unusual punishment.

Totally non-scientific experiment, but next time you're in the supermarket look out for the people who get stressed out and yell at their kids. Chances are they are the ones who light up the moment they get to the car park.

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I don't think the jury is back on this yet. they've tried to ban smoking in mental hospitals and all hell has broken out.

Given that folks with mental health issues smoke at a higher rate than folks without, I can see why there would be quite a bit of push-back.

What always surprises me is that health care workers also smoke at an alarming rate. One of our neighbors is a nurse, and when we went to a party at her house a few weeks ago, nearly everyone in the smoker circle was a nurse.

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Piglet:

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
... the business of getting a fag out, lighting it, taking time to smoke it rather than do anything else ...
Absolutely. One of the hardest parts about giving up was what to do with my hands in the spaces when I'd have been lighting up.

In college I knew many women who took up smoking as a tactful way of keeping an over-amorous date at arms length.

Moo

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I don't think the jury is back on this yet. they've tried to ban smoking in mental hospitals and all hell has broken out. I think banning it in jail is cruel and unusual punishment.

Banned here. Both in buildings and on grounds.

Smoking and mental illness (from APA.org)

In addition to discussion of how nicotine can mask symptoms of mental illness...

quote:
...the tobacco industry specifically marketed cigarettes to patients with schizophrenia and worked successfully to exempt psychiatric hospitals from smoking bans. She also found that tobacco companies funded research to support the idea that people with schizophrenia needed to smoke as a form of self-medication

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