Ship of Fools: Theology of Jokes

Thread: Theology of Jokes Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Latchkey Kid (# 12444) on :

We've had a few jokes threads, but I don't remember seeing one discussing any theological basis for jokes.
There are only a few in the Bible, but there may be a bit more irony.

How do we respond to Jorge and William in The Name of The Rose?

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

Not a theology of humour: but this looks like a good place to start looking.

Posted by *Leon* (# 3377) on :

I often feel that the words of Jesus in the Bible (in English) sound like what would happen if you took the script of a great comedian and translated it twice, each time treating it as if it was a very serious religious text.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

Absolutely. As it happens, here is part of yesterday morning's sermon (introducing the story of the Camel and the eye of the Needle). I claim no originality:

" ... I also think that Jesus had quite a good line in jokes. I’m not saying that he would have been a headline act at the Nazareth Comedy Club; but he certainly did make some comments which must have had his hearers laughing. The problem is that humour doesn’t travel well (you’ll know how true that is if you’ve ever seen German or Swiss comedians on the television), and so we tend not to notice Jesus’ jokes. We live in a very different time and place.

But just think for a moment of the humour involved in picturing a man with a huge plank in his eye, or in visualising a herd of pigs trampling someone’s precious pearls into the mud. Think, too, of the comedy in the story of the man who built on sand and saw his house inevitably collapsing, in the idea of anyone lighting a lamp and then deliberately covering it with a basket, or in the thought that a kind father might give his son stones to eat instead of bread. Jesus may not have been like Bob Hope or Tim Vine, churning out a string of wisecracks or droll one-liners; but his audience certainly would have found humour amidst his more serious, even challenging, utterances. ...".

[ 10. August 2015, 10:13: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

quote:
Originally posted by *Leon*:
I often feel that the words of Jesus in the Bible (in English) sound like what would happen if you took the script of a great comedian and translated it twice, each time treating it as if it was a very serious religious text.

I think there is something in this. We don't get much of the humour in the bible, because humour does not translate very well (especially not where the humour is strongly cultural, as a lot of it is).

A lot of the humour relies on language humour - wordplay, puns. These are also incredibly difficult to translate. They can be explained, but because it needs this explanation, you lose the immediacy of it.

Posted by Latchkey Kid (# 12444) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Not a theology of humour: but this looks like a good place to start looking.

Thanks.
It does have a link to a theology of humour, but the link is broken. A quick search finds its new location.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

Gosh - well done!

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:

quote:
Originally posted by *Leon*:
I often feel that the words of Jesus in the Bible (in English) sound like what would happen if you took the script of a great comedian and translated it twice, each time treating it as if it was a very serious religious text.
I think there is something in this. We don't get much of the humour in the bible, because humour does not translate very well (especially not where the humour is strongly cultural, as a lot of it is).

A lot of the humour relies on language humour - wordplay, puns. These are also incredibly difficult to translate. They can be explained, but because it needs this explanation, you lose the immediacy of it.

We (in the West) have a lot of trouble with parables, repitition, poetic structure and the significance of apparently contradictory texts in scripture, so spotting aa joke must be more challenging than understanding them in Shakespeare and Chaucer. The latter can be worked out but you would have thought that using the same grammar and substantially the same language, they would be eaasier than they are.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

hosting/

Q. Why did the thread on the theology of jokes cross the Ship?

A. To get to the other board (in this case, Kerygmania).

/hosting

Posted by Latchkey Kid (# 12444) on :

Actually, I wanted the discussion to be wider than the Bible.

I find very little written about humour. Many sermons use humorous anecdotes and I wonder if any preachers have a theology of using humour.

The only book I have which deals with the subject is Blue's Jokes by Rabbi Lionel Blue.
In it he relates a joke about Dominicans. It was told o him by a Dominican. Maybe all our denomination use the joke about a person ting to heaven and finding a closed group that St Peter telling the newcomer that is a denomination that thinks they are the only one. The Brethren I grew up with told this one abut The Brethren, and good for them.
Rabbi Blue gives the warning

quote:
Jokes don't just depend on the words but on the overall situation and the feelings of those who tell them and those who listen to them. They change their message immediately if they are told not to people but at them

I am not sure if this constitutes part of a theology of humour.

In King Lear, King Lear has his fool, who uses humour to tell him things his advisors are afraid to tell. This seems comparable to the prophetic tradition in effect, though Nathan et. al. did not use humour.

[ 11. August 2015, 03:22: Message edited by: Latchkey Kid ]

Posted by Garasu (# 17152) on :

I think Gerald Arbuckle's Laughing with God might be addressing some of what you're interested in.

My own thought is that jokes might be the last gasp of an oral literature in our society in that they are one of the few things where we don't assume that there's a definitive version but just the current telling?

Posted by *Leon* (# 3377) on :

I apologize if I kicked this thread in an excessively biblical direction.

I'd be interested to hear more about a broader theological discussion about jokes, but it's a subject I've never thought about or read about, so I currently have nothing to say. (But I suspect others are in the same boat)

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

quote:
Originally posted by *Leon*:
I apologize if I kicked this thread in an excessively biblical direction.

I'd be interested to hear more about a broader theological discussion about jokes, but it's a subject I've never thought about or read about, so I currently have nothing to say. (But I suspect others are in the same boat)

Host hat on

Now that this thread is in Keryg, the hosts would prefer that you refrain from the broader theological discussion.

Host hat off

Moo

Posted by Latchkey Kid (# 12444) on :

So should I start a new thread in Purgatory to discuss the matter in the way I wanted in my OP? William and Jorge were talking about Aristotle and saints who made fun of their persecution.

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

Go ahead if you want to.

Moo

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

Why jokes end up in the Bible--or for that matter in other works?

Because they were easy to remember.

Funniest one in the Bible for me is Paul's line when he is discussing the Judiazers.

We usually hear it as "I wish they would cut themselves."

The word is much, much stronger.

But most translators will not go there.

Posted by windsofchange (# 13000) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
So should I start a new thread in Purgatory to discuss the matter in the way I wanted in my OP? William and Jorge were talking about Aristotle and saints who made fun of their persecution.

Please let me know when/if you start your new thread, as I would really be interested in it and have already followed it from Purgatory to here! Thanks! [Smile]

Posted by Nigel M (# 11256) on :

One relevant passage in The Name of the Rose has William of Baskerville ask, “But what is so alarming about laughter?” Jorge de Burgos answers, “Laughter kills fear, and without fear there can be no faith, because without fear of the Devil there is no more need of God.”

If fear of the satan is a necessary support for faith, then the revelation that the satan will be defeated for ever is a bit of a bummer. Knowing that could be said to be sufficient to remove a need for God in one's outlook. I suppose William could have replied along those lines, but alas Jorge committed suicide once he had relieved himself of his above wisdom. That, too, is a bit of a downer, because suicide is an effective filler of fear, too.

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