quote:

---

Dafyd: Gomez, even if her version is based on Simm, takes the character out from under Delgado's shadow.

---

I can see how Gomez wanted to start out with Simm and take it from there. I have seen the 'start out with Simm' part; now please give me the 'take it from there' part I guess this is one of my hopes for Season 9.
 

---

Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:
Ainley was a camp imitation of Delgado; Simm a more modern updating of Ainley. Gomez, even if her version is based on Simm, takes the character out from under Delgado's shadow.

---

quote:

---

Ariel: I can't stand Missy - thanks for the warning. I may skip the episode.

---

I think it's a two-parter, so you may want to skip the next one too
 

---

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 

quote:

---

Jack o' the Green: I'm not a great fan either. I prefer my evil 'almost normal/sane but lacking empathy and remorse' rather than pantomime whacky.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hedgehog:
Delgado's Master was evil. Charming, but evil. But it was a very cold, calculating, sane evil.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:
I have the feeling that they tried to bring some drama into the Master with this "Gallifreyans are forced to look into the Untempered Schism when they're eight years old" thing. I think there is more to be explored there, more stories to be told.

---

quote:

---

Dafyd: I don't think that's drama. That's just angst for the sake of angst.

---

quote:

---

Dafyd: Anyway, I thought you wanted to get away from the Simm Master.

---

I'm just having a light chat here I guess what I want to get away from is the feeling that she is imitating his mannerisms a bit too much.

[ 10. September 2015, 09:04: Message edited by: LeRoc ]
 

---

Posted by Sipech (# 16870) on :
 
I quite liked Missy. I think it was a case of the writers testing the waters to see how fans would react to a female Doctor. If they do go down that road, I think Mariah Gale would be a good choice.

I'm hoping they'll come up with a good new villain. Since the show was brought back with Christopher Eccleston's doctor, I've only found the Weeping Angels and The Silence to be particularly good.
 

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Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :
 
I wish we could get the current series here in the US.

Our adult daughter is a hard-core fan: she goes to a meeting of a local Dr. Who fan club every Tuesday night.
 

---

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sipech:
I quite liked Missy. I think it was a case of the writers testing the waters to see how fans would react to a female Doctor.

---

quote:

---

I'm hoping they'll come up with a good new villain. Since the show was brought back with Christopher Eccleston's doctor, I've only found the Weeping Angels and The Silence to be particularly good.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:
Have you thought about some of the schemes Delgado's Master got up to? In his first adventure he tried to take over the world by distibuting deadly plastic daffodils. Then the Doctor tells him that his allies might try to double-cross him and the Master goes oh dear, I hadn't thought of that, I'd better switch sides.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hedgehog:
The free daffodils wouldn't get everybody, but they would go to enough people to kill enough people to cause massive disruption to society--which was the point.

---

quote:

---

As for abandoning it because he realized his ally would double-cross him, that also is logical.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
I wish we could get the current series here in the US.

Our adult daughter is a hard-core fan: she goes to a meeting of a local Dr. Who fan club every Tuesday night.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hedgehog:
Wasn't there an episode where Jo asks the Doctor why the Master is doing such-and-such, and the Doctor explains that he is just like a small boy stirring up an ant pile. Just doing it for the fun of it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bene Gesserit:
I have now - and that is interesting!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:

---

Jack o' the Green: I'm not a great fan either. I prefer my evil 'almost normal/sane but lacking empathy and remorse' rather than pantomime whacky.

---

I like my villains a bit tragic. For example a villain doing terrible things who honestly believes that he's doing good.

---

quote:

---

HCH: In an episode at the end of season 8, Clara (pretending she is the doctor) recites various facts about him, including the existence of his daughter. How could she know this? (I know, the facetious answer is that she has watched that episode.)

---

quote:

---

Jack o' the Green: However, it takes a very good actor and script to pull it off well. As illustrated by its extremely poor execution in 'Revenge of the Sith'.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by HCH:
I have a stray question. As I recall, at the end of the episode about the doctor's daughter, she died, or appeared to, and the doctor left thinking she was gone. After that, she revived and dashed off to have adventures.

If that's correct, then the doctor must still think she is dead. In an episode at the end of season 8, Clara (pretending she is the doctor) recites various facts about him, including the existence of his daughter. How could she know this? (I know, the facetious answer is that she has watched that episode.)

I would like the BBC to create a spin-off series about the daughter. The actress who played the role was charming, but if she does not want to do it again, she could regenerate into another actress. She needs to have a Tardis or at least one of those time-travel wrist gadgets, but it would be fun to have a genuinely young Time Lady learning who she is. What kind of companions should she have? (Nonhuman, to avoid sexual complications.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:

---

Jack o' the Green: However, it takes a very good actor and script to pull it off well. As illustrated by its extremely poor execution in 'Revenge of the Sith'.

---

I completely agree. In fact, I've all but forgotten about RotS.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
But the actress who plays Arya Stark in "Game of Thrones" is to be in, and in more than one episode, with an aside about her being a special character.

---

quote:

---

Pine Marten: Anyone else seen this yet?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
But the actress who plays Arya Stark in "Game of Thrones" is to be in, and in more than one episode, with an aside about her being a special character.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:
The Daleks have been a bit over-used in recent years I think.

---

I think not! My wife and I were on holiday in Cornwall and we visited Land's End in 2007. There was a traveling Dr. Who museum there. The scariest monsters we ever saw in our lives were the
FLYING Daleks! Pity they were out of salt cellars and pepper mills!

My wife does think the Weeping Angels are worse, but they did not exist at the time.

Pity we cannot get a Television Licence!


 

---

Posted by The Rogue (# 2275) on :
 
One of my best Delgardo moments was last year when I was watching the Daemons and he appeared as the local vicar. Middle Rogueling (aged 14) was audibly shocked.
 

---

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
Clara is leaving. To be honest, I'm not terribly sad over that. The latest interviews have been all about how very much attuned Clara and the Doctor have become to each other. I think that's a dead end in the long run; I'd like a little more tension between the Doctor and his companion.
 

---

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 
I like Jenna - I hope she is in all sort of other stuff.
 

---

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
Okay, the stakes have been set. I definitely need to see that one again.
 

---

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
Well I thought that was rather good. A couple of slow bits - notably the medieval scene, which I didn't like at all - but generally really rather good and, I hope, a setup for a suitably twisty conclusion to the story next week. (If next week is the conclusion - I've been carefully avoiding spoilers.)

I thought Missy was much better than last time round - back to a semi-rational Delgado style Master rather than the twitching maniac we saw from Anthony Ainley onwards. And I thought the Other Guest Character was perfectly acted and really quite disturbing - just how he should be!
 

---

Posted by Jack o' the Green (# 11091) on :
 
I very much enjoyed it. I agree that Missy was significantly better than last series. Some thought provoking ideas, and nicely set up for next week.
 

---

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 

quote:

---

Adeodatus: I thought Missy was much better than last time round

---

quote:

---

Adeodatus: notably the medieval scene, which I didn't like at all

---

quote:

---

Jack o' the Green: nicely set up for next week.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by balaam:
Capaldi was playing the guitar for real. Released by Radio Times.

---

I was fairly sure he must be, partly from watching the fingering, and partly because it wasn't that flash, which made it plausible he could be doing it rather than having Steve Vai doing overdubs
 

---

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 
I am guessing that might be a reason for it lasting so long.
 

---

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 

quote:

---

balaam: Capaldi was playing the guitar for real.

---

quote:

---

Schroedinger's cat: I am guessing that might be a reason for it lasting so long.

---

I don't have a problem with the length of the guitar solo, but the whole speech and him inventing the word 'dude' ... We already had the big anachronism joke, I don't think there was a need for a couple of small ones after that.
 

---

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
I had a feeling that as well as referencing Star Wars in the cantina, there were hints of Bill and Ted as well.
 

---

Posted by Jack o' the Green (# 11091) on :
 
Yep, you could be right. I've watched the episode for a second time and am even more impressed with Michelle Gomez's performance. I do find her both likeable and rather sexy . Which may say more about me, but does perhaps say something about her superficial charm as a psychopath.
 

---

Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on :
 
I don't know if this can even be answered without giving an undue amount of spoilers, but what the heck did the title of the episode have to do with...ummmm....the episode?
 

---

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
LOL a lot of fans are asking that. In the second prequel, the Saxon guy called the Doctor "magician" repeatedly. Maybe that's a clue?
 

---

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
The second episode is called "The Witch's Familiar". In next week's Radio Times, the listed characters are the Doctor, Colony Sarff, the Boy, Davros, and Daleks. No witch.

Bors, by the way, is the name of one of Arthur's knights, who's life is pure enough for him to see, but not not fully, the mass of the Holy Grail.

I was not aware of the existence of the second prequel, but managed to track down a thumbnail version of it. It looks as though Bors is the apprentice. The Doctor being the magician, since sufficiently advanced science will look like magic.

And I'm not very happy that what is quite useful information about the story has been hidden from large parts of the audience - YouTube copies had been blocked by the BBC, which I have paid for.

[ 22. September 2015, 17:56: Message edited by: Penny S ]
 

---

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 

quote:

---

Penny S: I was not aware of the existence of the second prequel

---

quote:

---

Penny S: It looks as though Bors is the apprentice.

---

That's what I thought too. But I'm not seeing many of the usual elements of the Magician's Apprentice trope here. You know, the apprentice wants to be as good as the magician, but he gets in way over his head. Instead, what we've seen Bors do is swing his axe a couple of times at the Doctor, and then he turned out to be a Dalek. And if he's not on the list for next week's episode ...
 

---

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
I tried to avoid that spoiler in case of people waiting until the Friday broadcast. But Bors' early behaviour doesn't seem to fit with it. And as you say, there's nothing of the out of control broom about. I also thought of Lewis' "The Magician's Nephew" with its between world travel, and making of choices. Doesn't really work, either.

At the moment, my friend and I are running with "and then they woke up and it was all a dream and they went home for tea and went to bed. THE END" (I spent a lot of time trying to persuade children that that didn't work.) Second choice - we're in a different trouserleg of the universe from previous stories and it's going to come together at the end of next week. She may not be in the cast list, but the article about Michelle Gomez in next week's Radio Times does not imply that she is gone.

Things I would like to be told. How he got to 1138 and why. What made him think he was going to die - it's a re-run of Trenzalore, isn't it? How Missy survived.

Things I don't like about NuWho. Secret stuff that only the in-crowd know. Long story arcs. Too many short bits without coherent links. Things without explanation. (Even at the level of reversing the polarity.) Too much backstory. Child Who, child Master/Missy, and now child Davros.

[ 22. September 2015, 19:23: Message edited by: Penny S ]
 

---

Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on :
 
Episode titles can be misleading. I remember back in the first season of nuWho there was an episode called "The Long Game" which really didn't seem to fit the episode all that well. Oh, you could sort of force it to kind of fit, but not very comfortably. But then when you got to the season finale six weeks later (or however long it was) it tied in with the plot then. In other words, the title was something of a clue to the season arc, not so much the episode itself.

I wonder if something similar is happening here. Maybe we won't understand the title(s) until later on in the season. But one thought that occurred to me was that, if the Doctor is identified with "The Magician" then his "apprentice" could be Clara. For next week, then, could Missy be seen to be "The Witch" and her Familiar...? Could it also be Clara?
 

---

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
That's the way my mind was going, but for that absence from the cast list - though that could be deliberate. And sneaky.

So here's the bit from the Radio Times collection of episode descriptions.

quote:

---

"The Doctor is trapped. He's a prisoner of the creatures who hate him most in the universe. Between us and him is everything the greatest warrior race in history can throw at us. We, on the other hand, have a pointy stick." There are places the Doctor should never go. Planets where his life would not be worth an hour's purchase. Where he finds himself in the very worst of these, withut his Tardis, or his sonic, and with his best friends murdered in front of his eyes, he has only his wits to keep him alive. And perhaps something else. What is the Doctor's confession? Why did he really leave Gallifrey all those centuries ago? And is it a secret he is willing to give up?

---

quote:

---

Penny S: I tried to avoid that spoiler in case of people waiting until the Friday broadcast.

---

quote:

---

Penny S: At the moment, my friend and I are running with "and then they woke up and it was all a dream and they went home for tea and went to bed. THE END"

---

quote:

---

Penny S: She may not be in the cast list, but the article about Michelle Gomez in next week's Radio Times does not imply that she is gone.

---

quote:

---

Penny S: How he got to 1138 and why.

---

That one seems easy. With his TARDIS He knew that after he'd left the child on the battlefield, he had to face Devros. But he wanted to spend some time there first to meditate (actually, to procrastinate).

quote:

---

Penny S: What made him think he was going to die

---

quote:

---

Penny S: it's a re-run of Trenzalore, isn't it?

---

quote:

---

Penny S: How Missy survived.

---

quote:

---

Penny S: Things I don't like about NuWho. Secret stuff that only the in-crowd know. Long story arcs. Too many short bits without coherent links. Things without explanation. (Even at the level of reversing the polarity.) Too much backstory. Child Who, child Master/Missy, and now child Davros.

---

quote:

---

Hedgehog: I wonder if something similar is happening here.

---

quote:

---

Penny S: but why then and there

---

quote:

---

Penny S: how did he know he was going to have to deal with old dying Davros, and why did he think that was going to lead to his permanent death

---

• Davros was a nice kid
• The Doctor didn't save him on the battlefield
• The handmines got him, but he survived
• His bitterness set in motion a chain of events that led to him creating the Daleks
• So in a sense, the Doctor created the Daleks

quote:

---

Athrawes: Or, alternatively, he did save child Davros, who still went on to create the darleks. This makes more sense of the episode's ending.

---

Well, in wibbly wobbly timey wimey ways there are still many things possible. I'm reacting to what I've seen so far.
 

---

Posted by Jack o' the Green (# 11091) on :
 
It'll be interesting how this turns out. The creation of the Daleks by Davros is a fixed point in time surely. If that's the case, whatever the Doctor does will in some way lead to their creation. Unless he kills him, in which case, he will affect his own time line profoundly. His history is bound up with theirs, and didn't they cause the regenerations of both Hartnell and Tennant (the first one)? It would've been much simpler if Capaldi's Dr had just saved Davros the first time round without assuming that there could only be one person with that name!
 

---

Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :
 
I have to say that I am becoming increasingly tired of Dr Who. Or rather, I am tired of the shenanigans that Moffatt and the writers are doing. I think I like Peter Capaldi as the Doctor, but Moffatt seems so inordinately pleased with his own cleverness that instead of telling a good story, he wraps everything up in bizarre story arcs, where you need to watch and rewatch a whole series before you really make sense of it.

Just tell the f@@@ing story!

I got bored with the first episode, especially at the end. We all know that Clara, the Tardis and even Missy are not going to be written out of the show in the first episode. So don't even try and make this some sort of "cliffhanger". And the random going backwards and forwards in time is just emphasising the illogicality of time travel. And we all know that the Doctor will never be able to eliminate Davros (and the Daleks) because that would just be plain silliness.

(Having said that, I really REALLY wish we could have a Dr Who series that DIDN'T include the Daleks OR the Cybermen at some point. Get a bloody imagination, Moffatt!)

Take the "hand mines". A great and scary idea (who would knowingly go out into a muddy field after watching that?) - yet it was really tossed out there and thrown away. It could (and should) have been a really scary moment - a classic Dr Who "hide behind the sofa" moment. But it was lost so that more attention could be given to Moffatt's cleverness.

As you can tell, I wasn't that impressed!
 

---

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 

quote:

---

Oscar the Grouch: Just tell the f@@@ing story!

---

quote:

---

Oscar the Grouch: We all know that Clara, the Tardis and even Missy are not going to be written out of the show in the first episode.

---

quote:

---

Oscar the Grouch: Take the "hand mines". A great and scary idea (who would knowingly go out into a muddy field after watching that?) - yet it was really tossed out there and thrown away. It could (and should) have been a really scary moment - a classic Dr Who "hide behind the sofa" moment. But it was lost so that more attention could be given to Moffatt's cleverness.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
I have to say that I am becoming increasingly tired of Dr Who. Or rather, I am tired of the shenanigans that Moffatt and the writers are doing. I think I like Peter Capaldi as the Doctor, but Moffatt seems so inordinately pleased with his own cleverness that instead of telling a good story, he wraps everything up in bizarre story arcs, where you need to watch and rewatch a whole series before you really make sense of it.

Just tell the f@@@ing story!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
I have to say that I am becoming increasingly tired of Dr Who. Or rather, I am tired of the shenanigans that Moffatt and the writers are doing. I think I like Peter Capaldi as the Doctor, but Moffatt seems so inordinately pleased with his own cleverness that instead of telling a good story, he wraps everything up in bizarre story arcs, where you need to watch and rewatch a whole series before you really make sense of it.

Just tell the f@@@ing story!

I got bored with the first episode, especially at the end. We all know that Clara, the Tardis and even Missy are not going to be written out of the show in the first episode. So don't even try and make this some sort of "cliffhanger". And the random going backwards and forwards in time is just emphasising the illogicality of time travel. And we all know that the Doctor will never be able to eliminate Davros (and the Daleks) because that would just be plain silliness.

(Having said that, I really REALLY wish we could have a Dr Who series that DIDN'T include the Daleks OR the Cybermen at some point. Get a bloody imagination, Moffatt!)

---

quote:

---

Oscar the Grouch: Instead of a story, we get silly gimmicks, like the airplanes freezing in mid air. Why are they doing that? No reason - just to show off and get attention.

---

quote:

---

Oscar the Grouch: As for the argument about running out of ideas - I don't really buy it. The great thing about Dr Who is that you don't have ANY limitations - the universe is your oyster. You can dream up all sorts of new worlds, creatures and situations - you just have to have the imagination.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by HCH:
I tend to agree that some of the best episodes are those that stand alone, not essentially tied into larger story arcs. Even in the old series, there were sometimes long arcs ("Trial of a Time Lord", "The Key to Time"), but there were many episodes that were just good individual tales.

I sometimes think of "Horror of Fang Rock" as an archetype of Dr. Who. The Doctor and Leela visit a lighthouse off the coast of England in the early 20th Century. Various events occur--a shipwreck, an alien invasion--and at the end, the two of them are the only survivors.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
I think that part of the problem is that Moffatt has forgotten that Dr Who is, above all else, a sci-fi programme.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:
The "nobody survives" idea in Fang Rock is actually very rare in Doctor Who. (I'm struggling to call to mind another example, in fact.) I very much prefer it to Moffat's favourite "everybody lives!"

---

quote:

---

There's a lovely simplicity to a lot of the classic stories, especially in the "gothic" period, roughly 1975-78. I think the nearest we've had recently were last year's Mummy on the Orient Express and Listen, both of which were very close to my idea of Doctor Who heaven.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:
The "nobody survives" idea in Fang Rock is actually very rare in Doctor Who. (I'm struggling to call to mind another example, in fact.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hedgehog:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:
The "nobody survives" idea in Fang Rock is actually very rare in Doctor Who. (I'm struggling to call to mind another example, in fact.)

---

Warriors From The Deep, perhaps?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hedgehog:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:
The "nobody survives" idea in Fang Rock is actually very rare in Doctor Who. (I'm struggling to call to mind another example, in fact.)

---

Warriors From The Deep, perhaps?

---

Pyramids of Mars. It may be the first.

---

O yes! How could I forget Pyramids

And why did you make me remember Warriors?
 

---

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
It wasn't so much the guitar (though I did not "get" the axe joke without research). It was the tank.

How did that get there? (I know it was missing from the house near Beulah Hill with the fish, which is also missing, but that doesn't get it to 1138.)

Still haven't found any reason for that year.
 

---

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hedgehog:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:
The "nobody survives" idea in Fang Rock is actually very rare in Doctor Who. (I'm struggling to call to mind another example, in fact.)

---

Warriors From The Deep, perhaps?

---

Pyramids of Mars. It may be the first.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
The Doctor pretty much leaves everyone to perish in The Myth Makers, and well and truly leaves everyone to die in The Massacre (the clue's in the title).

---

quote:

---

It is much to be regretted that so much of that section of season 3 is missing, frankly.

---

quote:

---

orfeo: So on the whole, reasonably good, and a few bits of interesting set-up about Gallifrey both past and present.

---

quote:

---

LeRoc: £10 in the Organ Fund says that this is all Missy's doing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hedgehog:
I don't know if this can even be answered without giving an undue amount of spoilers, but what the heck did the title of the episode have to do with...ummmm....the episode?

---

quote:

---

Penny S: Still think he did it for the wrong reason.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robin:
Did anyone else notice the Steptoe reference, or was I imagining it?

"Vampiring off your own creations just to eke out your days" (around 17:50). In the voice of Harold Steptoe / Harry H Corbett, particularly the second half of the sentence. Fits the context perfectly.

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:
The "nobody survives" idea in Fang Rock is actually very rare in Doctor Who. (I'm struggling to call to mind another example, in fact.)

---

Warriors From The Deep, perhaps? I forget if literally everybody died, but the body count was high. I seem to recall that, as the TARDIS crew leaves, the Doctor sadly mutters "there should have been another way."

---

quote:

---

Penny S: The wrong reason was to save one person, knowing that that would lead to many deaths. He said as much.

---

quote:

---

Penny S: OTOH, hearing Clara speak of mercy told him that he would be going to have done it.

---

quote:

---

Penny S: Not sure if that is the right tense.

---

Wibbly wobbly timy wimey

quote:

---

Penny S: Pity they couldn't have had him keep child Davros away from Skaro until his brain was set on a less psychopathic path.

---

quote:

---

Penny S: It's been done in Star Trek.

---

quote:

---

Penny S: And then they could explore the tyrannicide question of whether another of Davros' persuasion would have filled the void.

---

quote:

---

Jay-Emm: Which made the 'oh, I knew it all along' grate a little.

---

quote:

---

Penny S: Star Trek has done it in the new run of films

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beatmenace:
Sadly Moffat must consider Davros too essential to lose, but I wish he had been sacrificed, as that would have set a bit of an 'all bets are off' vibe which Moffatt likes to try and generate and usually backtracks on. Even Gallifrey escaped in the end.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:
Another question: did the Doctor pull a man from his wheelchair and leave him on the ground? Is this disturbing?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Athrawes:
I also think we are forgetting that the Doctor lies. He may have worked out what Davros was going to do, or he may have lied about it. And he didn't say *when* he had worked it out. I still see the Doctor with dying Davros being genuine rather than acting.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I thought Part 2 of the story was a big improvement on Part 1. Some good old fashioned stuff for the older fans, bu which would have looked new to the younger - I'm thinking of the Clara in the Dalek scenes. There might be complaints about the story's consistency with "established" Dalek history, but then, when has Dalek history ever been consistent?

What's a bit worrying is that, even allowing for the fact that the show was scheduled against the rugby world cup, the ratings are significantly down on last year. What is it that people don't like?

---

quote:

---

Athrawes: I also think we are forgetting that the Doctor lies. He may have worked out what Davros was going to do, or he may have lied about it. And he didn't say *when* he had worked it out. I still see the Doctor with dying Davros being genuine rather than acting.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
Give me a rattling good story, a few freaky aliens, a healthy dollop of imagination tinged with scariness and some giggles. Just stop farting around.....

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quote:

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Adeodatus: Having watched the preview clips on the BBC website, it looks like tonight you'll be granted at east some of your wishes.

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
What's a bit worrying is that, even allowing for the fact that the show was scheduled against the rugby world cup, the ratings are significantly down on last year. What is it that people don't like?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
What's a bit worrying is that, even allowing for the fact that the show was scheduled against the rugby world cup, the ratings are significantly down on last year. What is it that people don't like?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Penny S:
Last Sunday, for no apparent reason, both the first two episodes were broadcast in the afternoon instead of car racing, so maybe they are trying to get the usual audience back again.

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Yes, I thought that was odd, wonder if it will happen again next week?

Wasn't mucking about with transmission times one of the methods they used to get rid of OldWho?

That occurred to me as soon as I'd posted!
 

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Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 

quote:

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Ann: Wasn't the young scientist kept out of the alien ship (twice)? Does that mean he's the only one not to have seen the four symbols?

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quote:

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
The actress who plays Cass really is deaf. As in: wow.

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That is awesome. Serious cred to her.
 

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Posted by Sipech (# 16870) on :
 
I thought it was a fantastic episode. Up there with the "Are you my mummy" episode and the introduction of the Weeping Angels.
 

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Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :
 
Speaking of Star Trek has Dr Who ever done an alternate universe version where the Doctor traipse around messing things up and someone like the Master is busy trying to fix the damage? Could make an interesting place to visit.
 

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Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Speaking of Star Trek has Dr Who ever done an alternate universe version where the Doctor traipse around messing things up and someone like the Master is busy trying to fix the damage?

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quote:

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Palimpsest: Speaking of Star Trek has Dr Who ever done an alternate universe version where the Doctor traipse around messing things up and someone like the Master is busy trying to fix the damage?

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From the Master's point of view, this is what happening in our universe

Alternate universes have been done by Dr Who, mostly as an explanation of where this week's baddies come from. The interaction of our universe with the one in Season 2 of NuWho (where Rose's father still lived) was a bit more complex.

I don't think that Dr Who has ever done a Trek style mirror universe, where the Doctor is suddenly evil as evidenced by him having a goatee. Perhaps I'm glad they didn't.

[ 06. October 2015, 12:50: Message edited by: LeRoc ]
 

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Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
I don't think that Dr Who has ever done a Trek style mirror universe, where the Doctor is suddenly evil as evidenced by him having a goatee. Perhaps I'm glad they didn't.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Penny S:
And relying on someone to come and get him out of the energy extracting apparatus? That didn't look like thinking it out.

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quote:

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Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:

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Ann: Wasn't the young scientist kept out of the alien ship (twice)? Does that mean he's the only one not to have seen the four symbols?

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Hmm ...

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quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

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Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:

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Ann: Wasn't the young scientist kept out of the alien ship (twice)? Does that mean he's the only one not to have seen the four symbols?

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Hmm ...

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Hmm. Is he the one the ghosts left alone?

I think he is. Although one of my criticisms of the episode is that the characterisation was sufficiently bland that I'm not certain of that.

No vision, no transmission.

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quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
...Although one of my criticisms of the episode is that the characterisation was sufficiently bland that I'm not certain of that... [/QB]

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quote:

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
If I got it right, giggly girl and tall geek are with the Doctor in the past, while clever deaf woman and her translator are still with Clara under water.

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quote:

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Ann: Wrong way round - it was translator guy back on base who hadn't seen the words.

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Yes, I was a bit confused about this also.

Can't say I'm entirely happy with the conclusion. It feels a bit like a cop-out.
 

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Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
I really enjoyed this story. Toby Whithouse is a very good writer - his stories are starting to have an identifiably different "feel" to them than much of Moffat's material. I thought the design of the alien was brilliant, but the bit that had me almost jumping off the sofa was (avoiding too much of a spoiler) the ghost dragging the axe along the floor ...
 

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Posted by Jay-Emm (# 11411) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:

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Ann: Wrong way round - it was translator guy back on base who hadn't seen the words.

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Yes, I was a bit confused about this also.

Can't say I'm entirely happy with the conclusion. It feels a bit like a cop-out.

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It doesn't help that that's exactly the wrong way to submerge a village in normal conditions (although to be fair the village is a bit unnatural anyway). So the fact that the rest was pretty much forshadowed ...

And it pretty much proved the criticism of the Dr was pretty much exactly right.

But did enjoy much of it, and the axe bit (especially once I got it was good)

[ 11. October 2015, 07:37: Message edited by: Jay-Emm ]
 

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Posted by M. (# 3291) on :
 
I really liked - much much better than the first story.

M.
 

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Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 
I think it was very good. Very scary.

I suppose the one thing that I always struggle with in these types of story is that a ghost only appears when we know someone has died. But (without giving too much away), one character died in the past - meaning that they were already dead at the start, and so should have been a ghost.

The alternative is that the future was changed by the activity in the past. Which would seem to contravene the Doctors principles (why could he not change it back?)

I realise it is a dramatic trick, but it is mistaken. and bugs me, especially given the emphasis put on not changing things. And the Beethoven paradox.
 

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Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 

quote:

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Schroedinger's cat: I suppose the one thing that I always struggle with in these types of story is that a ghost only appears when we know someone has died. But (without giving too much away), one character died in the past - meaning that they were already dead at the start, and so should have been a ghost.

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quote:

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orfeo: I just watched "Under the Lake".

I dunno, I was put off by the early behaviour of the Doctor and (especially) Clara. Rather too glib.

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quote:

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orfeo: I did kind of like it, and most of all it did the scares well.

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quote:

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orfeo: But I could have really done without the Beethoven exposition business

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quote:

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orfeo: Also, pointless romance with no backgrounding.

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quote:

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Siegfried: Actually, I think the Doctor was talking to Clara at the start, as he is talking to her at the end when he brings up Beethoven again. That only makes sense if he'd told her about it already. The fourth wall breaking was a trick in camera positioning to avoid showing us Clara.

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quote:

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Dafyd: For me the story is pretty much summed up by the axe on the floor scene. The only reason that the axe is on the floor is that it then makes a sound for Cass to be unable to hear.

In short, while the scene is genuinely suspenseful, not only is it a scene where a disabled character is in peril because of their disability, but it's utterly contrived in the way it sets up the peril.

And then again we have a likeable female character whose only dramatic role is to get killed in order to provoke some perfunctory Davies-style questioning of the Doctor's willingness to put other people in danger to show how angsty we are.

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quote:

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Penny S: I would have wished he would apply what he feels for Clara to others.

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quote:

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Penny S: I would have wished he would apply what he feels for Clara to others.

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Penny S: And the guy who lost his colleague would have no reason to know that Clara has lost someone important. All he has seen is her with the Dr. No help at all, she's as useless as the Doctor in the circumstances.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dafyd:
For me the story is pretty much summed up by the axe on the floor scene. The only reason that the axe is on the floor is that it then makes a sound for Cass to be unable to hear.

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quote:

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Penny S: Useless solely in the situation of trying to show sympathy. He could not see that she had suffered the loss.

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Sometimes I have problems parsing your sentences I can see that 'he' is the Doctor here, but who is 'she'?

quote:

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Originally posted by Jay-Emm:

quote:

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Originally posted by Dafyd:
For me the story is pretty much summed up by the axe on the floor scene. The only reason that the axe is on the floor is that it then makes a sound for Cass to be unable to hear.

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To be fair, they were often feeble, which both justified that scene (against the axe not on floor variant, not the staying in place), and enabled other escapes earlier.

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quote:

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
For me, this scene apart from being really scary was about reaffirming how badass Cass is. She couldn't hear the axe, but she had a way of visualising it and thereby she saved herself.

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quote:

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Dafyd: She did have another way of visualising it than using her super reading vibrations through her fingers power. She could have turned around to see if anything was behind her.

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But that wouldn't have been cool

I can come up with kind of an explanation. It goes like this:

She wasn't aware there was someone behind her. She just had a sense of danger; maybe she already felt the axe's vibrations a bit through her shoes. But at that point, the danger could still be anywhere, not necessarily behind her. So she took the logical step: finding out where the vibrations came from with the sense that works best for her.

But to be honest, I think that few television programmes or films stand up to the tests of logic you want to submit them too. Including old Dr Who.
 

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Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 

quote:

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Penny S: Sorry. I meant that Bennett had no way to know that Clara knew about loss.

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quote:

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Penny S: Sorry again. Nobody in the research group knew anything about the Doctor's and Clara's pasts. So they wouldn't know about Danny and his pointless death and how that shattered Clara. They had seen the relationship between the Doctor and Clara which could have suggested that it was her important relationship, and so that she wouldn't have really understood loss, since the Doctor was still there. Bennett would have been perfectly justified in thinking, as people often do when someone tries to offer comfort, that they cannot possibly know what is felt. "I know how you are feeling" is the wrong thing to say.

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quote:

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Penny S: And thinking about this, though it isn't part of the argument, the Doctor knows about loss, even though it isn't due to death, many many times. In his other avatars he has been perfectly capable of recognising people's feelings.

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quote:

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
What I'm still unsure about: are we supposed to think about Danny in that scene? Sometimes it seems to me that Moffat wants us to forget he ever existed.

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quote:

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
But to be honest, I think that few television programmes or films stand up to the tests of logic you want to submit them too. Including old Dr Who.

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quote:

---

Dafyd: Obviously it's an allusion to Danny. Who else would it be to?

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quote:

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Dafyd: I'm not quibbling with the lack of logic as such. It's that I can see too easily what the writer is up to and I think it's cheap.

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quote:

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Pine Marten: is it cos I'm getting old and deaf, or can nobody else hear a bloody word Clara is saying these days???

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I have to concentrate a bit to understand a number of Dr Who actors, including Peter Capaldi. This probably is because I'm not British?
 

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Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on :
 
Well, I'm British and sometimes find it very hard to follow - but I find increasingly these days actors either gabble or do not speak clearly enough. I had some ado to follow Matt Smith at times.

it is one of several pleasures ( ) to listen to actors like Tom Hiddleston, who speak uncommonly well (as a reviewer once said of Ralph Fiennes).
 

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Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :
 
Given that some were wanting the present Doctor to share their same sex, it would be good to see a companion having a disability. It would be an interesting challenge for a lot of people if a companion relied upon sign language.
 

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Posted by HCH (# 14313) on :
 
I often find that the doctor--any doctor--speaks too rapidly for me to follow easily.
 

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Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 

quote:

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HCH: I often find that the doctor--any doctor--speaks too rapidly for me to follow easily.

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I'm glad I'm not the only one
 

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Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
LOL, this is the world map of the year 2119 that was shown in the control room of the Drum. The most important features:

• Global warming has taken the west of the US, some chunks of Africa, the south of India and a part of Brazil (including my house ). Inexplicably, Europe is mostly intact. Even the Netherlands are completely above water.
• The geo-political situation is exactly as in 2015. The only thing I can see is that South Sudan has united with Sudan again. The Vector Petroleum marker wisely masks whether Scotland is still part of the UK or not

quote:

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Originally posted by HCH:
I often find that the doctor--any doctor--speaks too rapidly for me to follow easily.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Penny S:
no, No, NO! That is so wrong, Wrong, WRONG!

The Vikings did NOT have COW HORNS on their helmets! Nor did they have whopping great feathered wings on their helmets either!

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You got there before I did, Penny S. I had no mead to weep into, but I did a fair bit of shouting at the screen.

Let us be charitable and hope that one of the characters corrects this in passing...Actually, I doubt it

[ 14. October 2015, 09:55: Message edited by: Pine Marten ]
 

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Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Penny S:
no, No, NO! That is so wrong, Wrong, WRONG!

The Vikings did NOT have COW HORNS on their helmets! Nor did they have whopping great feathered wings on their helmets either!

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quote:

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Charles Read: Did people spot that the amp was supplied / made by Magpie electronics?

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quote:

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Originally posted by balaam:

quote:

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Originally posted by Penny S:
no, No, NO! That is so wrong, Wrong, WRONG!

The Vikings did NOT have COW HORNS on their helmets! Nor did they have whopping great feathered wings on their helmets either!

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But they id have spiked helmets.

Yes, really.

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quote:

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Originally posted by LeRoc:

• Global warming has taken the west of the US,

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quote:

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
Ooo ... kay?

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I hope that is Ok as in intriguing, not Ok as in what was that about...
 

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Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
I guess a bit of both
 

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Posted by Athrawes (# 9594) on :
 
Yes, I've just watched it. It will be interesting to see where it goes.
 

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Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
Until now, I was a bit critical about Peter Capaldi. I felt that his timing as an actor was a bit off at times, both in the comical bits as in the serious work. To me, this was the first episode where he got it exactly right.
 

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Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Athrawes:
Yes, I've just watched it. It will be interesting to see where it goes.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jay-Emm:
rule-of-funny.

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Rufus Hound is in the next episode I believe, and DW has a history of casting a comedian and letting him/her do their thing within the script.

Should be good.
 

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Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
Odd thing, I was sure, from reading in advance, that Ashildr's name would be As-hildr, meaning god-battle, which would have been very fitting. But everyone said Ash-ildr, which doesn't mean anything.
Wherever the eels hailed from, I'm not sure they would have had enough power for the job.

Echoes of late Quatermass, as well as the Magnificent 7. And something else, not sure what. "How to train your dragon"? "Noggin the Nog"? Can't place it.

[ 18. October 2015, 14:16: Message edited by: Penny S ]
 

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Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
It is well known that the Vikings had colonies in North America. The eels were a curiosity gift from a South American tribe they were trading with at some point.
 

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Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
I thought last night's story was rather patchy, ranging from the unbearably cheesy (most of the Viking "Dad's Army" stuff) to the utterly brilliant (all the other bits that had Peter Capaldi in them).

I actually got a shiver down my spine when he started his translation of the "baby talk". The tone of it was judged to perfection.
 

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Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
Nice hall. Very nice carvings. Wonder where they shot it. Wasn't the one at Borg on Lofoten.

It was a bit too nice for that size settlement.

And I wonder where the Doctor got all his knowledge of the projection equipment and stuff in the helmets. Didn't see him with an electronic source (with Don't Panic on the cover).
 

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Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
I've been reading elsewhere.

Apparently the production team knew the horns were wrong, but used them because "some of the audience would expect them".

One comment suggested the reference to "corn" was another anachronism. got corrected, Though.

O tempora, O flipping ignorance.
 

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Posted by Eigon (# 4917) on :
 
Nothing wrong with "corn".

I did wonder where Ashildr's mum was, though - and Baby Lofty's mum.
 

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Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 

quote:

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Adeodatus: I actually got a shiver down my spine when he started his translation of the "baby talk". The tone of it was judged to perfection.

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quote:

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Penny S: It was a bit too nice for that size settlement.

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quote:

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Penny S: And I wonder where the Doctor got all his knowledge of the projection equipment and stuff in the helmets. Didn't see him with an electronic source (with Don't Panic on the cover).

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quote:

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Eigon: I did wonder where Ashildr's mum was, though - and Baby Lofty's mum.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dafyd:

(Nitpick: viking ...

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In Norse maybe, but clearly the Tardis translator, translated Gaet (or whatever) as Viking*

Also, I found wikipedia does have a (very partial) old english version.

*I'm now trying to think of an appropriate country with a really mismatched stereotype or etymology.
 

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Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
Did they call being Viking a nationality on the show?
 

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Posted by Jay-Emm (# 11411) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
Did they call being Viking a nationality on the show?

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Not quite.
But the non-viking(verb) norse* people declared themselves vikings (as supposed to the other trades).

*I bet this is just as bad.
 

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Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on :
 
Moving on from Vikings...is this the end of the sonic shades? Is the screwdriver going to make a welcome return? And since when did the Doctor have the ability to choose his next face?
 

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Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
Romana chose her next face, so it's possible.

And I liked that little callback, personally. Maybe remembering the importance of the few (or the one) will put an end to this silly idea that this Doctor doesn't know to relate to humans. The 'cue-cards' the other week felt like a leftover Sherlock joke from Moffatt's bottom drawer.

And please lose the glasses! Midlife crisis or what?
 

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Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on :
 
Ah, I'd forgotten Romana - I've not seen those eps in years.

And I second the rest of your post, Gill H. It was a touching little scene that brought a lump to the throat.
 

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Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
Sorry, still not working for me. Electric eels, the Doctor talking baby, high tech gadgets whipped up out of nothing - it all felt very silly. (And the enemy shared a name with a villain from Classic Who, without any apparent connection, but that is a bit geeky I know.)

Also, early on the Doctor says he only wants to make ripples, then goes and creates an immortal - surely that is a tidal wave? By the end I didn't care sufficiently for Asshilder to care if she was brought back, instead of any of the other characters who'd died. Have I said on these boards that I fear Capaldi is in danger of becoming another McCoy - a good actor who never gets the chance to shine because of silly scripts?
 

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Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 

quote:

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Robert Armin: Also, early on the Doctor says he only wants to make ripples, then goes and creates an immortal - surely that is a tidal wave?

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quote:

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Originally posted by ArachnidinElmet:
In other news, I'm greatly enjoying the old Who repeats on the Horror Channel on my newly re-tuned freebox. We've had 2 stories per Doctor, the best IMO being The Silurians and Inferno, both Jon Pertwee. I hadn't seen much number three stuff but am pretty impressed.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ArachnidinElmet:
Re: Inferno and The Silurians. Apart from all the other good things (Oh logical plotting, where did you go?) Liz Shaw is an excellent companion: capable and straight forward and not fawning.

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I agree about Liz Shaw, though the then production team decided she was too competent and didn't even bother to write her out.

If you wanted to subject the logic of the plots of Inferno and Silurians to the same scrutiny as the modern series you'd get about the same results. The old series, seven episodes, can get away with putting long chunks of technobabble over the cracks, where the new series just has to lampshade it and run.
The Silurians is the one where the Doctor originally reverses the polarity of the neutron flow.
 

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Posted by Erik (# 11406) on :
 
Going back to the underwater ghosts episode, I was really pleased to see a deaf character where her deafness did not turn out to be integral to the plot. It was just part of her character. I also really enjoyed the scene with the axe.

I wasn't sure about this week's Viking episode either. Especially bring the girl back an immortal. I can't help wondering if hybrids are going to be a significant polt arc this series (with both the dalek/time lord hybrid and the immortal girl being refered to as a hybrid). Or it could just be coincidence.
 

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Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on :
 
I've just seen a load of comments on Facebook about who Ashildr might be - a lot of people seem to want her to be either the new companion, or Capt Jack ...can't see that meself, and as (I believe) she's still filming Game of Thrones, I doubt whether she'll be much of a recurring character, let alone a new companion. But who knows?

I really really want the new companion to be male...
 

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Posted by ArachnidinElmet (# 17346) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Pine Marten:
I really really want the new companion to be male...

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quote:

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Originally posted by ArachnidinElmet:
I maintain that Bernard Cribbins would have made an excellent companion.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Roseofsharon:

quote:

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Originally posted by ArachnidinElmet:
I maintain that Bernard Cribbins would have made an excellent companion.

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Me too - very disappointed that he didn't get that job!
I'm not expecting any surprises in the choice of next companion.

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Thirded - I still miss Wilf
 

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Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
I just have one request: can the next companion please please not have a boyfriend? (unless perhaps if it's a male companion) We've done that with Rose, with Amy and with Clara and it never worked well.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Pine Marten:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Roseofsharon:

quote:

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Originally posted by ArachnidinElmet:
I maintain that Bernard Cribbins would have made an excellent companion.

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Me too - very disappointed that he didn't get that job!
I'm not expecting any surprises in the choice of next companion.

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Thirded - I still miss Wilf

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quote:

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Dafyd: But how can anyone say Rory didn't work well?

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Pine Marten:
... she's still filming Game of Thrones, I doubt whether she'll be much of a recurring character, let alone a new companion. But who knows?

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quote:

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Penny S: no Will whats'isname from Star Trek

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quote:

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Pine Marten: as (I believe) she's still filming Game of Thrones, I doubt whether she'll be much of a recurring character, let alone a new companion. But who knows?

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
Really? What I wrote is ordinary? And there are other quirks to hand, surely? Being afraid of the dark? Always having to step out of a door left foot first? Reading a book at every available moment? Cooking to Bake-Off standards? Being able to play any musical instrument? Making musical instruments. Being dyslexic? High end Downs Syndrome? Deaf? Veteran with PTSD and injury? Someone as good at disguise as Sherlock Holmes or that guy in Greenmantle. Sandy Arbuthnot. Muslim. (Problem - where is Mecca? The Tardis would have to have a self-aligning prayer room.) They had one in Robin Hood. Friar. Educated shaman. First Nations from somewhere. With survival skills.

Some of those would have problems getting on with women, but that would be secondary.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ArachnidinElmet:
In other news, I'm greatly enjoying the old Who repeats on the Horror Channel on my newly re-tuned freebox. We've had 2 stories per Doctor, the best IMO being The Silurians and Inferno, both Jon Pertwee. I hadn't seen much number three stuff but am pretty impressed.

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quote:

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Dafyd: I'm not quite a fan of Doctor Who stories about how being a lonely immortal is a bad thing, but this was one of the better ones.

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quote:

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Dafyd: The ending of the action plot suffered from trying to do an alien invasion on a BBC budget.

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Hehe yes. If the aliens ever invade for real, I hope they'll invite the BBC to stage it for them

quote:

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Penny S: The gallows humour was a good touch

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quote:

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Penny S: And how did the lovely Maisie get into her beautifully laced dress with her hair so fancily coiffed without a maid?

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100,000 hours of practice
 

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Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
Nope, doesn't work. The hair, maybe, and could be a wig. Not the lacing. It's a two woman job. She'd have had her dressmaker make the bodice with front or side laces.
 

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Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
I've woken from a complex and instantly forgotten dream with a nasty thought.

quote:

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It seems a bit peculiar to criticise a work of fiction for having characteristics which made it seem unreal and dreamlike, but that is my impression. Then again, production staff who will put in cow horns just because they feel like it can't be trusted to try to suspend disbelief effectively. I'm left wondering if these inconsistencies are going to surface as a plot development or just vanish as trivial.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Sparrow:

quote:

---

Originally posted by ArachnidinElmet:
In other news, I'm greatly enjoying the old Who repeats on the Horror Channel on my newly re-tuned freebox. We've had 2 stories per Doctor, the best IMO being The Silurians and Inferno, both Jon Pertwee. I hadn't seen much number three stuff but am pretty impressed.

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Is that on Freeview? I don't think I have seen it on my Freeview box!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Penny S:
I've been reading other places, but no-one else seems to be thinking like me!

---

Okay, I admit that that is probably the strongest evidence that you have it right...

Personally, I am putting a lot of it down to "production office fatigue." When a production team has been with the show too long, a couple things happen. One is an increased tendency to send up the show. "Let's have a bit of fun with this one..." Whenever the production team gives in to wanting to have a "bit of fun" with a story, it is usually bad news. "Let's have stage Vikings! With an eyepatch! Ha! And let's have the day saved by electric eels that actually produce large quantities of electricity! It's funny! And let's get a popular guest star and put in huge allusions to the show that they are popular in so that everybody knows that we know who it is we cast!"

Another sign is the overuse of certain things. So the producer is thinking how to fill this season and thinks: "Daleks are popular, let's use Daleks. Missy was popular, let's use Missy. Osgood was popular, let's use Osgood (even if we did kill her off). Oh, and let's get a popular actor to be a guest star for a couple episodes! Secluded base stories are always fun and the Second Doctor thrived on them, so let's use secluded bases...there, that's this season sorted!" It is Doctor Who By The Numbers, and always a sign that the production team needs to be shaken up so that fresh ideas can come in.

All that said, I rather liked this most recent episode. While the theme of "why don't you take me with you" came up early in the episode, I confess I didn't think of the reason given until it was stated...and then it made sense to me. (I guess I can't say more than that without undue spoilers.)
 

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Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
I'm not sure which I prefer. It was all a dream, or who cares about the audience anyway. I don't like either, really.
 

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Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
Once again, I disagree

I realise how difficult it must be to run an action based series for such a long time. I don't know of many examples that have pulled this off. And I can forgive them if they need to pull a couple of tricks sometimes to make it happen.

To me, the difficulty of doing this isn't just about the danger of "running out of stories". It has much more to do with the dynamics of the universe you have created. Isaac Asimov has been mentioned as an example on this thread. He created this brilliant Foundation Universe, that is often seen as one of the highlights of Science Fiction of all times. Well, famously, Asimov has run out of stories to tell in this universe. This isn't because there weren't any interesting places to be created in the Foundation Universe, it is just how the dynamics of fictional universes work.

To me, the way Dr Who has avoided running into this wall for a bloody 52 years is because it has always played fast and loose with the rules. And it consistently had the ability to be tongue in cheek about itself. It has mostly avoided jumping the shark by jumping over it five times every episode. I think that's brilliant, and to me, there is something very British about this.

So yes, their portrayal of Vikings isn't according to how they really were. So fucking what? If I want to learn about Vikings, I'll read a book or watch a fucking documentary. They put horns on the Vikings' helmets because horns are cool, and I can live with that. The "Dad's army" part of the Vikings story was a bit daft, but it was part of a beautiful two-parter that told the old story about the burden of immortality in a new, gripping way to me. So I'm a happy camper.

Yes, they brought Missy back because she was popular with viewers. I can forgive them for that. Viewing numbers have dropped over the past years, and I can imagine that they want to pull some tricks like this. I thought Michelle Gomez's portrayal of the character was much better than in last season, so I liked that. And as for how she survived the Cybermen thing: to me, her line "Dying is for ordinary people" was the absolutely perfect explanation for that. Exactly in line with her character, and not giving a further explanation was a brilliant example of the show not taking its own rules too seriously. The non-explanation of her survival was one of the highlights of this season so far.

I don't watch Game of Thrones, so I just judged Maisie Williams' appearance on the quality of her acting in these two episodes. And boy, did she deliver! It was absolutely amazing, the range she has as an actor completely carried the episode for me. And that for an eighteen year old, I'm very impressed. So I just watch that, and I don't care why the BBC put her on this show.

Were there low points this season? Yes, absolutely. The first episode was far too convoluted. Some of the villains were a bit silly (I'm looking at you, lion man). And I was a bit frustrated of the cop-out that the Doctor's ghost turned out to be.

Of course, the show won't have the 10M viewers anymore it had under Tennant and Piper. And some people will already have made their minds up, continuing to grumble about the appearance of celebrities, and how everything was better under Old Who. Let them. I can forgive the show pulling some tricks, and even some low points, because it continues to amaze me with some of the stories it's able to tell me after more than 52 years.
 

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Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:
And as for how she survived the Cybermen thing: to me, her line "Dying is for ordinary people" was the absolutely perfect explanation for that. Exactly in line with her character, and not giving a further explanation was a brilliant example of the show not taking its own rules too seriously. The non-explanation of her survival was one of the highlights of this season so far.

---

quote:

---

how everything was better under Old Who.

---

quote:

---

Dafyd: but at the start of episode two she explained that she survived in exactly the same way she and Clara survived the episode one cliffhanger.

---

• 6 of 13 stories in Series 5
  The 2010 Christmas Special
  5 of 13 stories in Series 6
  The 2011 Christmas special
  4 of 13 stories in Series 7
  The 2012 Christmas special
  The Day of the Doctor anniversary story
  The 2013 Christmas special (The Time of the Doctor)
  7 of 12 stories in Series 8
  The 2014 Christmas special
  6 of 12 stories in the current Series 9, and
  The forthcoming 2015 Christmas special

quote:

---

Hedgehog: I also am enjoying that Peter Capaldi finally seems to have a good grasp on what he wants to do with the character. He appears much more comfortable in the part than he was in the last series.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hedgehog:
I went to The Font Of All Knowledge (a/k/a Wikipedia) and, since Steven Moffat took over producing the show in Series 5 (Matt Smith's first year), he has either written or co-written:

• 6 of 13 stories in Series 5
  The 2010 Christmas Special
  5 of 13 stories in Series 6
  The 2011 Christmas special
  4 of 13 stories in Series 7
  The 2012 Christmas special
  The Day of the Doctor anniversary story
  The 2013 Christmas special (The Time of the Doctor)
  7 of 12 stories in Series 8
  The 2014 Christmas special
  6 of 12 stories in the current Series 9, and
  The forthcoming 2015 Christmas special

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:
I enjoyed it. I'm not quite a fan of Doctor Who stories about how being a lonely immortal is a bad thing, but this was one of the better ones.

---

quote:

---

Jay-Emm: They quote less than 100,000,000,000 seconds (3000yrs) as though he's seen stars from alpha to omega

---

quote:

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Penny S: But this week, very little in Brockwell Park or Dulwich, despite the on screen notices.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
But this week, very little in Brockwell Park or Dulwich, despite the on screen notices.

---

They didn't spend any time in Brockwell Park.
 

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Posted by Sparrow (# 2458) on :
 
At last, an episode where I actually understood what was going on!
 

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Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
Ah, they filmed it in another park? (I go to London sometimes but I don't know the city that well.)
 

---

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:
To me, the way Dr Who has avoided running into this wall for a bloody 52 years ...

---

quote:

---

Penny S: I find it doesn't confirm my hypothesis of last week, nor destroy it. It may push it back a bit, depending on how long Clara has been in a pod, and how much we are meant to believe the versions of the scene on the flats landing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:
Point of fact: it hasn't been running for 52 years. It started in 1963 and ran out of steam by 1989, which gave it 26 years, during which time most people would probably agree it went downhill. It was then revived after a 16-year absence in 2005 with a new slant.

---

quote:

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Adeodatus: I was hooked from the first scene

---

quote:

---

Adeodatus: Also, did anyone notice that the guest cast were almost all women?

---

I did
 

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Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :
 
I like the way the double episodes give more time so the pace of the episides does not have to be too frenetic. Matt Smith was really good at that but a different Doctor needs different pacing.

2 45 to 50 minute episodes per story, and we are back to the story length of the classic series (3 to 5 25 minute episodes.)
 

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Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
I've seen a complaint about the women, and blaming the military inadequacies on them.

Last week there were complaints about the non-white faces in the Tyburn crowd.
 

---

Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
I've seen a complaint about the women, and blaming the military inadequacies on them.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
I've seen a complaint about the women, and blaming the military inadequacies on them.

---

At least Rebecca Front's Colonel Walsh could shoot straight enough to hit a church door at ten paces, which is more than you can say for most of the UNIT boys down the years.

And yes, Rosa Winkel, that was "Amazing Grace". I think Capaldi looks very much at home with a guitar slung round his neck. But there's a limit to what my delicate little ears can take.
 

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Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :
 
We need much more guitar to redress the balance of all the keyboard monstrosities we've been hearing for decades
 

---

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
I found Amazing Grace a bit of an odd choice too.

quote:

---

Hedgehog: I liked the spin on Osgood and her "sister," including her refusal to state whether she is the original human Osgood or her Zygon counterpart. I said back at the time of "The Day of the Doctor" that, of all the UNIT personnel, I thought Osgood really understood the Doctor's approach to problems. She is the peace--refusing to acknowledge that there is a difference between her and her sister.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:
I found Amazing Grace a bit of an odd choice too.

---

It might be a Scottish thing. (Warning: extreme bagpipe content.) Believe it or not, this was actually a No.1 hit in the UK in the 70s (or was it the 80s...?).
 

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Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
I see what you did there!
 

---

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
Last week there were complaints about the non-white faces in the Tyburn crowd.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:
Cleopatra died in the first century AD.

---

quote:

---

Dafyd: I think that's actually pointed out by one of the Romans in that episode.

---

quote:

---

One thing I am sure about - Moffat doesn't do things for no reason, and he isn't careless.

---

quote:

---

If you compare what we've had so far with Tennant's second season, with Martha, I can't see any reason to think there's been a decline.

---

quote:

---

Robert Armin: Capaldi playing his guitar - again - was self indulgent

---

quote:

---

Robert Armin: And yet... I found it cold and dull. Nothing gripped me, and I find it hard to care how it will be resolved in a week's time.

---

quote:

---

Robert Armin: For me, the Martha season was one of the high points of nu-Who

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:
For me too. The Shakespeare Code, Gridlock, 42, The Impossible Planet / The Satan Pit ... All good episodes. And of course, Blink is one of the best episodes ever.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
Somewhere earlier it was speculated as to why viewing figures are down.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
Somewhere earlier it was speculated as to why viewing figures are down.

---

One explanation: it doesn't start until after Strictly Come Dancing, so children can't watch it until they turn on iplayer on Sunday morning. (Also, more people using iplayer in general. I watch it on iplayer.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:


Penny S:

quote:

---

One thing I am sure about - Moffat doesn't do things for no reason, and he isn't careless.

---

I wish I had your faith.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Despite being someone who has seen a steady decline since Moff took over, I couldn't fault this week's episode.

---

quote:

---

Penny S: And I suspect we are going to see more of the States - they couldn't afford to go for such a small section, I would have thought.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Despite being someone who has seen a steady decline since Moff took over, I couldn't fault this week's episode.

---

Steady decline? As I remember it, you've pretty much declared every episode of the Moffat era a disaster from The Beast Below onwards.

---

quote:

---

Robert Armin: Tennant's overblown, lachrymose farewell was one of the low points of nu-Who.

---

I wasn't too keen on that either. NuWho has always had story archs from season to season; from season 3 to 7 they seem to have gotten bigger and bigger. I liked some of them, but it is also refreshing to see a return to 'smaller' stories again with Capaldi. Sure, there is talk about a hybrid in this season, but it isn't as heavy foreshadowing as in the previous seasons.
 

---

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
Tennant's overblown farewell.

Youtube

If you can make out any of the words!
 

---

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
Dreams.
 

---

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
And Clara acting outside herself in the pod as Oswin acted outside the Dalek.
 

---

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
I was reminded of the same thing.
 

---

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
And next week an isolated station with things breaking in - again.

And interruption of the sleep cycle - Hmm.


That was a brilliant speech from Capaldi. On the eve of Remembrance Sunday, and just before the Albert Hall do.
 

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Posted by Ann (# 94) on :
 
"Five rounds, rapid!"
 

---

Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
Let me confound Dafyd by saying I thought that was a really good episode. Even before all the stuff about forgiveness - which I thought was brilliant - I'd loved the struggle Clara had for control. And, as a lifelong asthmatic, the final scene was excellent.

(However, to confirm my reputation as an old miseryguts, I was expecting a new adventure to start tonight. Last week made so little impression on me that I'd forgotten it, and thought this was the first after the dull immortal Viking.)
 

---

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
And I was also reminded - and probably none of you will be - of a play produced by a Dover sec mod school as an entry in a competition for schools producing TV plays, way way back. It was in an anteroom of the afterlife, with the central character an ex-President of (probably) the USA, who had probably pressed the button. (It was in those days, when we expected someone to do it.) The boy playing the part had to deliver a speech justifying himself. There was a prosecutor and a defender.
There were two doors. For some reason, though it looked very much as if it were going the other way, the one he went through did not go to Hell.
Wish I could remember the words as well as the images and the intensity - which were what the way Dr Who presented it reminded me of.

I shall watch it again tomorrow.

[ 07. November 2015, 19:56: Message edited by: Penny S ]
 

---

Posted by Stumbling Pilgrim (# 7637) on :
 
"I'm old enough to be your Messiah"
 

---

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
One thing I didn't like - only two parachutes.
 

---

Posted by Sipech (# 16870) on :
 
That anti war speech was possibly the main reason they didn't delay airing the episode as the image of a plane being shot down could be seen to rather offensive, given the current affairs in the Sinai desert.
 

---

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 
I thought it was an excellent episode, and very relevant to this weekend. The anti-war message was strong and well done.

Next week looks interesting.
 

---

Posted by The Rogue (# 2275) on :
 
Did I see Tardis shaped litter bins and a flash of William Hartnell?
 

---

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
There was the use of a character self naming "Me" again.
 

---

Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Rogue:
Did I see Tardis shaped litter bins and a flash of William Hartnell?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
One thing I didn't like - only two parachutes.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beatmenace:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
One thing I didn't like - only two parachutes.

---

I spotted that too. Bad news for the pilot, the Zygon and at least one UNIT guard (seen in the background at the end of part one).

The Doctor doesn't save everyone this time.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
Somewhere earlier it was speculated as to why viewing figures are down.

---

One explanation: it doesn't start until after Strictly Come Dancing, so children can't watch it until they turn on iplayer on Sunday morning. (Also, more people using iplayer in general. I watch it on iplayer.)

---

I may have mentioned this elsewhere, but Doctor Who gets one of the biggest "catch-up" audiences of any show in the UK. For instance (it's the first one I came across) The Witch's Familiar got a "live" audience of only 3.7 million - but about another 2.4 million watched it from other sources within 28 days.

---

quote:

---

Stumbling Pilgrim: "I'm old enough to be your Messiah"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BroJames:

quote:

---

Originally posted by beatmenace:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
One thing I didn't like - only two parachutes.

---

I spotted that too. Bad news for the pilot, the Zygon and at least one UNIT guard (seen in the background at the end of part one).

The Doctor doesn't save everyone this time.

---

Well yes, and several piles of incinerated electric hair around the place.

---

quote:

---

Erik: But did anyone else notice that one of the helmets from the Viking episode was very prominantly visable right behind the Doctor for the whole of that speech? It might not mean anything but it seems a bit odd. After all, someone must have decided to put it there. Maybe I'm seeing significance where there is none.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:
To me, it felt a bit like an inside joke. To us, this is from last month's episode. To UNIT, it is 1100 years old.

---

quote:

---

Hedgehog: I am a bit surprised that we have heard nothing further about the Confession Dial after all the fuss they made about it back in episode one.

---

quote:

---

It has been established beyond doubt that the rules of time travel are whatever they need to be for the plot of the current episode.

---

quote:

---

Rachel Talalay, director of the final two episodes, told DWM: “[Steven Moffat has] layered in all these things from earlier in the series, which you never even thought were important. You have no clue what the series arc is, or how Clara leaves, until … well, until you do! It makes this finale so exciting – all these mysteries, numerous questions, some questions you hadn’t even realised were questions! It’s mind-blowing how well Steven has constructed this. At the end of this series, you’ll want to go back and watch it all again, ‘Now I see!’”

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Athrawes:
I find I don't like the recent Mark Gattis offerings. He tries too hard to make it horror, and doesn't quite carry it off.

---

I agree that I have not liked his recent offerings, but in this most recent one I'd say that it is not that he was trying too hard, but that he wasn't trying hard enough. He had a fairly simplistic concept for a story twist and then did some potboiling writing to fill it out. I got no sense that he really thought out the story. As the Doctor kept shouting, it made no sense. Even after the ending, it makes no sense.

Okay, okay. It is Doctor Who. I am used to the occasional story making no sense. No big deal.

But, as Schroedinger's cat observes, maybe we have not heard the last of this. After all, everything else this season has been done in two parts, so maybe next week's offering will provide a better wrap up on this one. Maybe.
 

---

Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
A monster made of sleep? What next, the Earwax Monster?

Or the Bogey Man?
 

---

Posted by M. (# 3291) on :
 
Oh, Gill H, that made me

M.
 

---

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
Not being the sort of person who watches things frame by frame to analyse what might happen next, I have missed a couple of things. (Probably far more, of course.) These two were done by someone who does that sort of thing.

In the episode in which Ashildr turns up on a photo from outside the school, she is dressed as Clara's mother from some episode in the far past.

In this episode, in a list of stuff projected at the beginning, Clara's name appears. Rather like, and this is me, the Dr put it in a list of victims in the lake one.
 

---

Posted by Rev per Minute (# 69) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
Rassmussen is trying, like Davros, to perfect a race. And his box's hoses reach for Clara like snakes, like Colony Sarf's snakes reach for the Dr in the guise of hoses.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
However, Clara's mother died in unexplained circumstances, and her name was Eleanor Alison Ravenwood, which is vaguely interesting.

---

So her initials were E.A.R.? My God, Gill H. was right! It is going to be the Earwax Monster!!
 

---

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
Didn't notice that! It was the Raven I thought vaguely interesting.

I suspect Moffat is so engrossed in pleasing the frame watchers who blow things up huge to read them that he has forgotten about what Pratchett called "narrativium", the element which makes stories work. And which, in my opinion, works best with the broad sweep of the story, not the little French knots of embroidery in the hearts of the flowers on the edge of the tapestry.
 

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Posted by Sipech (# 16870) on :
 
I was sat there thinking it was a rehash of Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS. The dust monsters picking off the rescue crew looked awfully like the burnt people that were picking off the salvage crew.

Far from a fine episode, but as others have mentioned, I think there are allusions here that will only become clear later on.
 

---

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
One thing I didn't like - only two parachutes.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
One thing I didn't like - only two parachutes.

---

Curiously, in defending the showing of the episode with the crashed plane, it was said that no-one died in the explosion by whoever was doing the defending. Not thought about it, I suppose.

---

• Dimly lit episodes where I can't be sure what's happening
• A Narrator telling us what is going on, rather then us seeing it for ourselves
• A Narrator telling us what characters are like ("He was the joker") instead of it being acted out. Lazy story telling.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hedgehog:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
One thing I didn't like - only two parachutes.

---

Curiously, in defending the showing of the episode with the crashed plane, it was said that no-one died in the explosion by whoever was doing the defending. Not thought about it, I suppose.

---

Depending on where you look, it is remarkable what utter rubbish you can find from commentators. I made the mistake of watching a YouTube video allegedly revealing 5 "Easter eggs" from that episode--and when it was done I was satisfied only that (a) the poster had no idea what the phrase "Easter egg" means and (b) the poster didn't pay particularly close attention to the episode (getting plots wrong, quotes wrong, incidents wrong...).

---

I couldn't be sure who had made the statement, but it was someone involved at the BBC end, not a commentator. Backpedalling madly, I suspect.
 

---

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :
 
Just watched it, and as found footage style thing go this was far scarier than the Blair Witch Project.

So scarier than a very tame unscary film.

I think the idea of doing something different was good, but could have been done better. There is only room for one 'base under siege' episode per series, and we had hat in Under the Lake.
 

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Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 
I thought it had interesting if undeveloped ideas, some reasonable scares, and a few perfunctory sketches of other emotions.

As a base under siege it was preferable to the Under the Lake two-parter, if only because of the meta-critique of the base under siege genre, namely that even a malevolent pile of sentient eyegunk can write a decent base under siege.
 

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Posted by ArachnidinElmet (# 17346) on :
 
I like the Alien films as much as the next person, but I could quite happily go years before I need to see another Doctor Who episode where the whole of the plot is 'named characters pursued down darkened corridor by shadowy monster'.
 

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Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
I've finally been able to watch this. I do think that this is a two-parter like the others, and to me it depends on how this is resolved.
 

---

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
I've discovered a "Dr Who Forum" where some of the things I've spotted have been spotted, too. But also a theme about Tarot, all the way through, apparently. I am totally blank on that. Though there was an obvious nearly Hanged Man.
 

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Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
There must be dozens of Dr Who forums

I just discovered that this isn't meant to be a two parter. But maybe we will see this resolved at the end of this series?

I have the feeling that they tried something different here: let's do a found footage episode with a twist in the end, but it didn't really work.
 

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Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on :
 
More and more I am convinced that it was just a mis-fire.

Reportedly, it scored the lowest Audience Appreciation Index since "Love and Monsters" in 2006--another story I had completely forgotten about until I looked it up.
 

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Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
Here's the one with the ideas: The Doctor Who Forum

According to Mark Gatiss, he pitched this story for the last season, and had to add to it to fit into this one (after reducing it to one episode because of the found footage concept being added) Clara being more independent. I suspect he added more than that.

Meanwhile, I have woken with theory version 2. The hints about stories within stories suggests that this may not be someone's dreams, but someone's stories that the Dr and Clara are trapped in, made up from fragments of older stories and half remembered bits of other real world stuff. Hence the Mire helmet in the Black Archive. And the street next week being Diagon Alley. The obvious someone would be Ashildr, except that elements of the season are earlier than her, and her episode is full of half remembered stuff before she is put into the helmet. Less obvious would be that Ashildr is Missy. Or Clara in the Dalek.
Clara, in the first episode in which she was herself, and not a timeline echo, was partially absorbed into a computer, wasn't she? Thus gaining her computer skills when rescued. And, apparently (can't remember this), the Spoonhead who trapped her was disguised as the character Kate from the book Summer Falls, (which wasn't that good.)
 

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Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
This version would allow the next season to be a complete reboot.

A brief shot of the environment in Heaven Sent looks like the place where Missy received the dead in the last season. (Not the bit that looked like New Mexico, obviously.)
 

---

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 

quote:

---

Hedgehog: More and more I am convinced that it was just a mis-fire.

---

Yeah, I have the same feeling. I like that they're prepared to take risks, and I guess I can forgive them if one of them doesn't work out. But don't let it happen again this season

quote:

---

Penny S: Here's the one with the ideas: The Doctor Who Forum

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
I was thinking this morning that the puzzles he sets are a bit like crossword puzzles - but that only works if it is solvable.

---

quote:

---

Penny S: And if there is going to be an apotheosis of Clara to become some sort of wonderful entity on whom the whole universe depends, I shall not be pleased.

---

quote:

---

Penny S: Wesley Crusher, Cordelia, and I think there was another female one in another of the Star Treks are extremely irritating.

---

I tried to look for the Cordelia you were talking about but couldn't find her. I'm also interested in who the other female is.
 

---

Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on :
 
Personally, I am still banking on my theory that Clara is going to be in the spin-off series set at Coal Hill School. Possibly her and what's-his-name, P.E. (Seriously, I can't remember his name--I can only recall the Doctor always calling him P.E.) Of course, that means we have to get him back from the dead, but the last two series having Heaven and Hell in the titles gives me hopes.

I doubt Ashildr is the Master because, well, we have a dandy one right now and the last we saw she was going to hatch a wonderful scheme with the Daleks. You want to talk about dangling plot threads, there is one right out in the open.

And, of course, those first episodes were also the ones where the whole hybrid thing got started. What was it again? A legend of a hybrid of "two great warrior species" which Davros decided was the Daleks and Time Lords. But having Ashildr referred to by the Doctor as being a hybrid suggests the possibility that she is of two warrior species: humans and Time Lord.

Oh. Oh. Oh. Surely the Moff is not going to bring back that line from the TV Movie that the Doctor is "half human" and then make him the hybrid of legend?? And then have that be the reason he fled Gallifrey, which he disclosed in the Confession Dial? Oh, I will spit if that is it. That line is better left untouched and assumed to be just an unaccountable joke by the 8th Doctor.

Oh, LeRoc, Cordelia was on "Angel" the spin-off show from "Buffy the Vampire Slayer." Aha!! There is a theme of spin-offs throughout this!!!!
 

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Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 

quote:

---

Hedgehog: Oh, LeRoc, Cordelia was on "Angel" the spin-off show from "Buffy the Vampire Slayer."

---

quote:

---

Hedgehog: Aha!! There is a theme of spin-offs throughout this!!!!

---

Star Trek: The Next Generation had a strong theme about malfunctioning holodecks. I think it is a comment on the futility of the narrative frameworks we construct around our own lives (I'm just fooling around a bit here, I do think that discerning themes in TV series can be interesting.)


(Psst the name is Danny Pink.)
 

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Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:
(Psst the name is Danny Pink.)

---

quote:

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Penny S: I think the female I was thinking about was Neelix's beloved.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:

---

Penny S: I think the female I was thinking about was Neelix's beloved.

---

I try to block Neelix out of my mind, but her name was Kes.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Please tell me Clara isn't really dead........

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
Whopping great big plot hole, right at the onset of the conspiracy. How on earth could be arranged that Riggsy, last known of in Bristol, could pass by Diagon Alley at a moment convenient for whoever has it in mind to kidnap the Dr, and how was it known that he could call on the Dr?

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Jay-Emm:

quote:

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Originally posted by Penny S:
Whopping great big plot hole, right at the onset of the conspiracy. How on earth could be arranged that Riggsy, last known of in Bristol, could pass by Diagon Alley at a moment convenient for whoever has it in mind to kidnap the Dr, and how was it known that he could call on the Dr?

---

He had a phone message at 6:00 (though what it was that made him just leave without a note ...).
That still leaves them to chose him as a victim, and to make sure he contacts the Dr.
Though if they knew he had Clara's details, I guess they can be fairly confident of things being predictable (and if not I'm sure there are ways to drop hints).

---

quote:

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Penny S: But it does underline that Ashildr knows too much.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jack o' the Green:
Part of me hopes Clara has died. Not because I didn't like her - I thought her and the Doctor's relationship was the best companion/Doctor relationship for a long time - but because it was so well done and genuinely moving. There is a nice contrast between a stupid miscalculation and its result - especially with regard to the 'impossible girl'. The ramifications could be significant.

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quote:

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Hedgehog: I am also getting a little tired with the concept that every time a companion leaves there must be tragedy.

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quote:

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Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:

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Hedgehog: I am also getting a little tired with the concept that every time a companion leaves there must be tragedy.

---

I get what you mean. I can see that they want the companions to leave on an emotional note, and the easiest way to do this is to make it tragic.

Having said that, most companions you mentioned didn't end up that bad. Rose was with her family and with her version of the Doctor. Amy and Rory led fulfilling lives. And at least, they made an effort to make the tragedy different each time.

I have the feeling we're going to see Clara again two episodes from now, but I'm not entirely sure of it.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Penny S:
[QUOTE]Should you fancy a spoiler, Imdb has a cast list for "Hell Bent", which has only two names on it, neither of which is Michelle Gomez, and neither of which is someone we don't know. You have to come at it by searching for the whole series first, as there's another page with no cast on it at all. (Not even the very extensive backstage lot.)

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quote:

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Penny S: I'm not sure how happy I am that Moffat implies that with Clara gone, the Dr has nothing left to care for. What about babies? For instance.

---

quote:

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orfeo: "Sleep No More" was odd, and initially interesting, but in the end it just seemed awkward.

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quote:

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And it is a scene that revolves around who Clara is: a deeply flawed bossy control freak capable of acting with indescribable grace. She lied and manipulated her way to death, like she inevitably would eventually, just as the Doctor inevitably does every couple of seasons. “Why can’t I be like you,” she asks, and there is no good answer. Indeed, she is. She gets a death scene, just like he always does...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
orfeo: I thought that Philip Sandifer had stopped his blog, finishing with a massive article. I see he didn't, like. Had I misunderstood?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
Philip Sandifer's review of "Face the Raven" encapsulated perfectly a little nugget of what was so right about the big speech...

quote:

---

And it is a scene that revolves around who Clara is: a deeply flawed bossy control freak capable of acting with indescribable grace. She lied and manipulated her way to death, like she inevitably would eventually, just as the Doctor inevitably does every couple of seasons. “Why can’t I be like you,” she asks, and there is no good answer. Indeed, she is. She gets a death scene, just like he always does...

---

Full text here.

There's more in the same vein in that review and another one I read, that this is the culmination of one characteristic of Clara that has been emphasised for the last couple of years: her desire to be the Doctor. And here is the great moment of tragedy as she tries to solve things with the kind of crazy move that the Doctor is always pulling. And finds out that it doesn't work.

That, I think, is why it feels so fitting.

---

quote:

---

orfeo: this is the culmination of one characteristic of Clara that has been emphasised for the last couple of years: her desire to be the Doctor. And here is the great moment of tragedy as she tries to solve things with the kind of crazy move that the Doctor is always pulling. And finds out that it doesn't work.

That, I think, is why it feels so fitting.

---

Yes, very good how they did this. I just looked back on my earlier posts on this thread, and here I wrote that there are two themes around Clara: she's becoming just like the Doctor, and she needs to face death. I didn't put those together and realise that this could mean that she'd get in over her head and therefore cause her own death

Also, the title The Magician's Apprentice makes sense now. It is very good when a show is able to do that.

quote:

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orfeo: Full text here.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:
I disagree with him on one point though: I don't think Sleep No More / Face the Raven is a two parter.

---

quote:

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orfeo: No-one agrees with him at all on that, and if you look in the comments he suggests it's his little joke.

---

quote:

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orfeo: And it seems that Sleep No More was a stand-alone (not even having normal intros and credits) so that we could have a 3-part finisher...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:
(Ok. I'm still unsure how careful I should be on this thread.)

---

quote:

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Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:

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Penny S: I'm not sure how happy I am that Moffat implies that with Clara gone, the Dr has nothing left to care for. What about babies? For instance.

---

Out of curiosity, did Moffat say that, or did you deduce this from the show?

---

quote:

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Penny S: He was quoted on the Imdb trivia page on "Hell Bent."

---

quote:

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Penny S: And I'm sure that the old man and his wife's story reminded me of something I read, or heard, somewhere else. Isaac Bashevis Singer, maybe?

---

quote:

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Penny S: What would have been different if the old man had stood his ground, I wonder.

---

quote:

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Penny S: The outcome was, apparently, the same, though. Both dead. Both with the black smoke going off.

---

quote:

---

Penny S: I'm not absolutely convinced the old man was a Cyberman.

---

quote:

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Penny S: Besides which, from what the other greeter said, referring to them always running, the whole thing seems as effective as school canings in the days when the punishment book showed the same names over and over again. Ashildr keeps killing. People keep breaking the rules.

---

quote:

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Penny S: And she obviously doesn't read her diary enough, since she has not remembered that deals done with aliens may not be what one expects. She has made the same mistake again.

---

quote:

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Penny S: What Ashildr said (and I've just rewatched, to find out) was "Would a Cyberman be afraid of a merciful death?" Which rather leaves it open. But a Cyberman would not be able to move as the old man did, even if he looked like an old man.

---

quote:

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Penny S: The bit about the punishment book was that her method simply doesn't work. She has to keep on executing people. If it worked, she wouldn't need to. It doesn't deter. And the one with the glasses knows it, and doesn't like it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
And why didn't the Doctor even try anything? To simply stand back and admit defeat is not in the character of any Doctor we've seen.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:
[QUOTE]Penny S:[qb] What I do find significant personally is that the Doctor is angrier about Clara's death than about the old man's. The episode doesn't pay much attention to this.

---

quote:

---

Erik: I agree that this is noteworthy. It reminded me of the 'Under the Lake' episode where the Doctor only really kicked into action when Clara was in danger. At the time I felt a bit uncomfortable at the implication that the other people's lives didn't really matter in the Doctor's eyes. Especially the comment that the Doctor put Clara's name on the list his ghost was reciting in order to make him act.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gill H:
Please tell me he lied about the hybrid...

---

quote:

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Penny S: He said "The hybrid...is me."

Which has another interpretation. If you capitalise the "me".

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:

---

Penny S: He said "The hybrid...is me."

Which has another interpretation. If you capitalise the "me".

---

Yes.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by M.:
I found it a mixture between boring and extremely irritating.

---

I thought it was like a Shakespeare play. Lots of long, convoluted speeches, very dramatic acting and no action!

Like Shakespeare I think it will grow on me, so I shall watch it again.
 

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Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
Heaven Sent was Doctor Who meets Camus meets 18th century gothic meets 1980s computer adventures meets Kafka meets M.R.James meets nightmare meets parable.

And I absolutely loved it!
 

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Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 
I loved it. Reminded me of Iain Banks. With GoT and Black Mirror thrown in for good measure.

I like this style of story - paradox, surrealism, a confused doctor, and (for me) a gripping storyline.
 

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Posted by Ceannaideach (# 12007) on :
 
Liked it and had spotted the cyclical nature very early one.

Also seemed to have echoes of Scherzo, for any other Big Finish fans
 

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Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
It was obviously necessary for the Dr not to have the confession dial when he put on the transporter bracelet or there would have been a horrible paradox.

And I wonder if the reason it fell off was because he had, like Kay in "The Box of Delights" gone small. (Though delightful this obviously wasn't.)

So why had he sent the dial to Missy in the first place?

And what did he mean by saying, presumably to the Gallifreyan lot, "I know what you've done"?

I haven't given up on the whole season being a dream, or a story, or the equivalent of a holodeck episode* with someone who doesn't really know the details of Earth history cobbling it together. Only it would have to be the Time Lords. The whole sequence could be inside the gadget.

As in "thanks very much for stopping us being destroyed - now we're going to give you hell, little by little by little".

Did you notice the flies, like the planes in the first episode?

I thought Ashildr looked more like herself in the trailer - no fancy hairdo, more relaxed.

*After all, they've now done the transporter trick idea.

[ 29. November 2015, 15:35: Message edited by: Penny S ]
 

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Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
Forgot to mention, somewhat irrelevantly, that the first comment under the Daily Telegraph review is always by someone (not the same someone) complaining that it is too politically correct. too many females (the director in this case) or a black face in the Tyburn crowd. The rest are mixed fan stuff. Odd.
 

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Posted by Rev per Minute (# 69) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I loved it. Reminded me of Iain Banks. With GoT and Black Mirror thrown in for good measure.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:
Just a question: did anyone get the part about the octagonal(?) sand pit with the chalk arrows?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Friends on Facebook are saying it is either a) brilliant or b) cockwomble. On the whole I'm going with b). When I watched it on iPlayer I got a phone call shortly before the end and had to pause it. When I realised there was still 10 minutes to go I had to force myself to turn it back on - I was so bored with all the repetition.

---

I'm solidly between the two positions. It was a good idea, but it was a tiny bit overlong and overstretched. You couldn't have anything too zany so soon after Clara's death so serious is fine, but 10 minutes too long is about right.

RA, may I compliment your use of Cockwomble. I'm thinking of slipping it into conversation tomorrow.
 

---

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Friends on Facebook are saying it is either a) brilliant or b) cockwomble. On the whole I'm going with b). When I watched it on iPlayer I got a phone call shortly before the end and had to pause it. When I realised there was still 10 minutes to go I had to force myself to turn it back on - I was so bored with all the repetition.

---

quote:

---

Hedgehog: But I am having trouble making the bits fit.

---

quote:

---

Hedgehog: Is that why, when he thought he was going to die, he sent the Dial to Missy--so that the other surviving Time Lord might find it? But...but...but...

---

quote:

---

Hedgehog: Of course, still one more episode left. Plenty of time for explanations.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ArachnidinElmet:
RA, may I compliment your use of Cockwomble. I'm thinking of slipping it into conversation tomorrow.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
Here is a reference to a bit of fun. Guardian piece

And here is the link to what it refers to. Peter Jackson

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by balaam:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Penny S:
Here is a reference to a bit of fun. Guardian piece

And here is the link to what it refers to. Peter Jackson

---

[/QUOTE

Whereas we get 12 parts lasting 45 minutes each plus a bit extra at the end plus the Christmas special. Not very different.
 

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Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
I wouldn't exactly say dream - but an imposed dream from outside. Something along the lines of what (I think) Tolkien said that elves could do. Which is why I have more recently mentioned the holodeck on Star Trek. Travelling in through layer 1, in which Moffatt has been doing this to the Doctor, we get to layer 2, in which someone in the Whoniverse has been doing it to him. Missy, the Time Lords, a group including Ashildr, I haven't the slightest idea any more. But I think it has been going on for at least most of this season, and possibly back further. He may have been in the dial far longer than the last episode, and only thinking he had it in his pocketses all that time.
I wish they would pronounce Ashildr's name properly. It wouldn't be Ash-ildr, it would be As-hildr. It's another thing that doesn't make sense.
One of the techies in the production cast list in Imdb is surnamed Oswald!
 

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Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on :
 
Oh, and I forgot to summarize the whole "hybrid" thing. So there is (apparently) an ancient Time Lord legend of a hybrid made of the two greatest warrior species in the universe (or something like that), and (apparently) the hybrid was destined to stand in the runs of Gallifrey (or something like that). Davros thought it would be a blend of Dalek and Time Lord but, as the Doctor pointed out in "Heaven Sent," the Daleks would never blend their DNA with anybody. As Ace observed back in classic Who, you can tell the Daleks are all about racial purity. So the Doctor finally stated that the hybrid was "me." Which could either refer to himself or to Ashildr, who tends to call herself "Me." (And kudos to Penny S for pointing that out.) And Ashildr is a human who has been made immortal because the Doctor gave her a Time Lord healing disk.

But, you ask, if the Time Lords have a healing disk that can make you immortal, then why do any Time Lords ever die? Good question. Don't know. Maybe the disk doesn't work as well with Time Lord physiology and it is only less complicated life forms, like humans, that the disk can make immortal.

There. You are ready for the finale, with everything made crystal clear except for, you know, the plot.
 

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Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on :
 
I am so glad I have you lot here, to explain what nobody understands anyway.... I love this thread
 

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Posted by Jack o' the Green (# 11091) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hedgehog:
So the Doctor finally stated that the hybrid was "me." Which could either refer to himself or to Ashildr, who tends to call herself "Me." (And kudos to Penny S for pointing that out.) And Ashildr is a human who has been made immortal because the Doctor gave her a Time Lord healing disk.

---

quote:

---

Jack o' the Green: a piece of alien technology taken from the invading alien's (I forget their name) armour.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
I think my version was better. (Hubris...)

---

quote:

---

Penny S: And all those infuriating wrongnesses throughout the season turning out to be incompetences and not plot features at all. And Rachel Talalay saying we would have to rewatch the lot to pick up all the clues. Nuts. Rubbish writing.

---

quote:

---

Hedgehog: And possibly Orson Pink. Who, apparently, we should just forget.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
The 3-part finale had its moments, but I really didn't feel emotionally involved as often as I should have. "Heaven Sent" was the best, and the last part of it was very powerful. "Face the Raven" had good moments but was perhaps a bit overwrought, and then "Hell Bent" was even more along those lines, trying to make me feel things rather than actually letting it happen.

---

quote:

---

Hedgehog: I was going to warn you about getting too fond of your own theory. I did the same thing years ago. Back in series 5, the TARDIS blew up (the Pandorica thing). At the end of the series, the Doctor made some glib comment about figuring out why it blew up later. I then spent most of series 6 expecting it to explain the explosion. That was the Doctor-dies series. I figured the end result would be that the Doctor changing his own death would cause temporal feedback that would destroy the TARDIS--but that was a price he was willing to pay because he had already fixed it! I thought it was a great twist: to have the Doctor free to do the unthinkable because he had already dealt with the consequences before he even knew he'd have to cause it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by M.:
Meh. So boring again.

Why is it that no character is actually allowed to die these days? It takes all the power out of it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by M.:
Why is it that no character is actually allowed to die these days? It takes all the power out of it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:
My not so humble opinion:

The Magician's Apprentice The Witch's Familiar: the first part was a bit chaotic, with too many ideas being thrown at us. The confrontation with Davros was not brilliant, but it was OK. Good.

Under the Lake / Before the Flood: people who wanted behind-the-couch moments got them here. Cass was a good character. The resolution left a bit to be desired. Okay.

The Girl Who Died / The Woman Who Lived: the Dad's Army part was a bit daft, but it can be forgiven because the two parter told a good story about immortality. Good acting by Williams. Very good.

The Zygon Invasion / The Zygon Inversion: the running around in New Mexico and Turmezistan didn't do much for me, but it was more than made up for in the second part, with as highlight of course the Doctor's speech about war. Very good.

Sleep No More: an experiment that misfired. But I can forgive them for doing that every once in a while. Meh.

Face the Raven / Heaven Sent / Hell Bent: I wasn't that attached to Clara, but I admire that they faced her death in the eyes (the last episode didn't take that away for me). Heaven Sent was pure brilliance. Hell Bent didn't do much for me. So I have good, classic, okay for the three parts. It still gives a very good for me overall.


So, I have a meh, an okay, a good and three very goods. I don't think there are many seasons that can live up to that.

---

I find myself largely in agreement with your not so humble opinions.

I still think I prefer last year to this year, just a little. Last year's themes felt more coherent. After last year's finale, I found myself wanting to rewatch the season in a way that had never happened before.
 

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Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on :
 
I'm not a Whovian, but we happened to catch an episode of it tonight on the Space Channel, and were mightily amused at the Doctor describing Gallifrey as "like Glasgow, but in space".

Which possibly explains what are probably the coolest chairs in the known universe.
 

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Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
I thought Mackintosh - but didn't make the connection!
 

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Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on :
 
We reckoned the ones in the show were based on this one, but with "Glasgow roses" carved from the oval bit.

We have a very crude copy of the Swallow chair, made of shot-blasted Mexican pine which D. found in a scruffy furniture shop in Belfast and lovingly coated with lots of black paint to hide the shot-holes. When I came home from w*rk and saw it silhouetted against the dining-room window I was completely gobsmacked.

[ 07. December 2015, 13:10: Message edited by: Piglet ]
 

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Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
Now they can do stuff like that, and still think horned helmets, electric eels, codices and confused centuries are OK! Complete dissonance.
 

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Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
And Gomez is in the cast list. Clara isn't, despite the diner.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Why was the President so angry with the Doctor that he (at first) tried to kill him? Isn't that a rubbish way of getting information out of any one? (Even when the topic is as boring as the Hybrid.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
Like why the Dial turned up with Missy anyway. Why the Dr thought he was going to die - again.

---

quote:

---

Robert Armin: OK - Clara's continued survival threatens the space-time continuum (whatever) because she was meant to die in London 2015. Agreed?

---

quote:

---

Robert Armin: So how does forgetfulness get round that? Especially if it is the Doctor who forgets?

---

quote:

---

Hedgehog: because I rate the Zygon story even higher than your "Very good" rating.

---

quote:

---

Penny S: Like why the Dial turned up with Missy anyway.

---

quote:

---

Penny S: Why the Dr thought he was going to die - again.

---

quote:

---

Penny S: Given what happened with it in the end, does that really make sense? Construct his own Purgatory?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
OK - Clara's continued survival threatens the space-time continuum (whatever) because she was meant to die in London 2015. Agreed? So how does forgetfulness get round that? Especially if it is the Doctor who forgets?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:

---

Penny S: Given what happened with it in the end, does that really make sense? Construct his own Purgatory?

---

I think the Time Lords messed with his confession dial?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:
Yes. Basically it was aiming for silly and fun and succeeded admirably.

---

Totally agree. It was what I had hoped for: just a fun, funny romp. It was good to see the Doctor laugh.
 

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Posted by Sparrow (# 2458) on :
 
"Hello Sweetie"


 

---

Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
Agree with all of you. Lots of fun, and who cares how it fits into the timelines!
 

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Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sparrow:
"Hello Sweetie"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hedgehog:
But it might--nuWho has shown a fondness for Victorian England and it wouldn't totally surprise me if they plucked a companion from there.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by M.:
There have been alien companions in the past, of course, Adric, Turlough and Nyssa spring to mind.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hedgehog:
Any categories that I missed?

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