Ship of Fools: War and Peace

Thread: War and Peace Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

What do people think of this version which started on BBC1 this evening?

Apologies if this question sounds a bit UK specific. Nevertheless, I think it's going to be shown in the US, but running about a fortnight behind ours. It's also going to be shown in Australia but I don't know whether that's simultaneous or not.

Apart from me, is anyone else old enough to have seen the previous television version from 1972 with Anthony Hopkins as Pierre?

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

I've not read the book, but I do (very vaguely) recall the 1972 version - and a very lengthy one on Radio 4.

Anyway, we loved it and will be tuning in again next week, definitely.

Posted by Tree Bee (# 4033) on :

Yes, I remember the 1972 version and I enjoyed the first episode last night.
The bloke playing Pierre was very good and I loved the jovial Ade Edmondson. Kept spotting actors from Dickensian too.

Posted by Jack the Lass (# 3415) on :

I haven't caught up with the first episode yet but will definitely be watching this. I finally read the book last year and am intrigued as to how they've managed to squeeze it into 6 hours - it took me 10 months!

I gather there has been some controversy about the portrayal of Anatole and Helene Kuragin's relationship (not sure if the offending stuff has been shown yet so I won't post anything else in case it's too spoiler-y).

Posted by Helen-Eva (# 15025) on :

I thought it was potentially a good story and gorgeous to look at - I'm really glad to see all the palaces and costumes and scenery that I couldn't imagine very well reading the book.

However, I'm not sure it's War and Peace. So much has been left out - lesser characters who get a lot of description and action in the book were just shown fleetingly with very little explanation of who they were. I can see the commercial reasons for making six episodes do, and possibly the viewing public would only be prepared to commit to that much, but it really does leave out too much.

Posted by Jack the Lass (# 3415) on :

Although to be fair, I often found when reading it that those long descriptions of lesser characters and events (5 chapters for one hunt?!) were just too much, and I longed for a ruthless editor to tell Tolstoy to just get on with the story!

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

Very enjoyable, with a stellar cast. Probably best not to compare it too much with the novel.

There are some interesting criticisms of it - that it looks too much like Downton, which is quite amusing. And that it looks very English, rather than Russian. Ah well, this is being picky. And that it's the BBC's way of saying to the Tories, who might want to dismantle them, fuck off.

Posted by BroJames (# 9636) on :

The 10 hour BBC radio production was played though in one day (New Years Day last year IIRC. It was available at the time as podcasts and I downloaded it.

I've not watched the new production. I remember the 1972 production quite well (given how long ago it was). The trailer for the new production seems to be visually quite similar, if the trailer is anything to go by.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

I thought it was good in parts - I liked Rebecca Front, Ade Edmondson and the guy who plays Pierre ... I remember the 1972 version too.

This one has staged the battle scenes more convincingly - but if anyone's seen the 1960s Russian film version by Sergei Bondarchuk which seemingly had the entire Red Army running around for the Battle of Borodino will feel a bit short-changed by the 'epic' cast of dozens battle scenes ...

To be fair, the uniforms and so on look pretty authentic and 'lived in' - which is more than can be said for many historical adaptations.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
... There are some interesting criticisms of it - that it looks too much like Downton, which is quite amusing. And that it looks very English, rather than Russian. ...

I think that's potentially quite an interesting angle. They and the setting so far have looked a bit like 'yet another Jane Austin' who is the same period and the same war, but in comfortable southern England.

A few years ago I was watching a programme about Tchaikovsky. The producer had 'borrowed' a student orchestra from a conservatoire in Russia to provide the musical demonstrations. There was no doubt that although the notes were the same, the timing was the same and the instruments were the same, they played it with a different sensibility from how a UK orchestra would play the same pieces.

I greatly enjoyed yesterday's episode, but so far, it's been a bit difficult to get the feeling that these are Russians, and that they live in early C19 Russia rather than early C19 Hampshire. They haven't so far quite got the feeling that the glitter is skin deep over a society that is otherwise very unsophisticated indeed and to our experience fairly alien.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

Sure ... but the 'Western' enthusiasms of some of the central characters do come over in the novel ... hence 'Pierre' for goodness sake and not 'Piotr' ...

I agree that some of the settings look a bit 'Home Counties' but they've tried to get around that by having basso-profundo in the sound-track at various points ... and the Austrian battle-scenes did look somewhat Alpine -- with mountains in the distance.

To be fair, some of the extras look Russian - the street scenes in Moscow don't look very much like early 19th century London for instance ... there are people wearing curious costumes ...

People of a certain class, though, did tend to adopt similar styles and manners right across Europe ... so the similarities to 'Pride and Prejudice' don't surprise me on one level ... and the director worked on the most famous recent adaptation of that ...

However, there wasn't much Jane Austen like about the Count's death-bed scene ... I've never seen an adaptation of a Jane Austen novel that had bearded priests in ginormous golden copes crossing themselves and intoning alongside the bed of the soon to be departed ...

Thinking about it ... is there even a death-bed scene at all in Jane Austen?

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

Only notional ones. Mrs. Bennett having severe vapours, Mr. Woodhouse convinced that he's going to die.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jack the Lass:
Although to be fair, I often found when reading it that those long descriptions of lesser characters and events (5 chapters for one hunt?!) were just too much, and I longed for a ruthless editor to tell Tolstoy to just get on with the story!

Agreed!

I enjoyed it - and the sets are spectacular!

Posted by luvanddaisies (# 5761) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Tree Bee:
Kept spotting actors from Dickensian too.

We commented on that too, there are a few, aren't the? From a lowly Inspector Bucket to a rich Russian prince!

I enjoyed it. When the announcer said "six episodes" I did sort of sputter "what?", but at least with that I was forewarned to accept it as a whistlestop summary, and on that basis, I enjoyed it. I can't remember anything about the book (which is weird, as I remember Anna Karenina really well) although watching it did pop stuff from the book into my head, so for example I recognised Pierre as soon as he entered, although his name escaped me at first.

It could be good. I like it so far.

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

I assume they have historical references for the costumes - but one of the dresses in the opening scene worried me: did they really have one-shouldered gowns with a terribly modern shape to the boned bodice and a back fastening that looked suspiciously zip-like?

Sadly, I tend to watch the frocks more closely than the actors.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
I assume they have historical references for the costumes - but one of the dresses in the opening scene worried me: did they really have one-shouldered gowns with a terribly modern shape to the boned bodice and a back fastening that looked suspiciously zip-like?

Sadly, I tend to watch the frocks more closely than the actors.

I clocked that straight away, if you mean the Gillian Anderson dress. I am an inveterate frock-watcher, and annoy my wife when I go into rhapsodies about cutting on the bias.

Anyway, I really doubt if they would not research the costumes to the nth degree, but it's quite a startling little number. I didn't notice the zip.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

http://www.express.co.uk/comment/expresscomment/631306/Gillian-Anderson-War-and-Peace-X-Files

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

For all frock-watchers, I have found a picture of a dress from 1810 in England, described as an 'asymmetric Grecian style', and it looks rather similar to Ms Anderson's, i.e. with one bare shoulder. I think it was a kind of imitation of 'classical Grecian drapery'. As for the 'short stays' worn underneath, maybe, I leave that to you inveterate students of women's underwear.

(But note, the V & A are doing a history of underwear this year, buy your ticket now!).

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

I remember a cartoon in Punch at the time of the 70s series, showing a battle scene with a messenger on horseback galloping up to Napoleon to say “Sire, sire. Kutusov is defeated, Andre is wounded and Natasha meets an old friend.”

I still find it funny after all these years.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I remember a cartoon in Punch at the time of the 70s series, showing a battle scene with a messenger on horseback galloping up to Napoleon to say “Sire, sire. Kutusov is defeated, Andre is wounded and Natasha meets an old friend.”

I still find it funny after all these years.

That is funny. There is something similar in Vanity Fair, where whole families decamp to hotels near Waterloo, partly to support their menfolk, but also to party!

At some point, there is fear that Boney has won, and various characters charge around trying to buy a horse, to get away.

But it also has the famous and poignant line, at the end of a chapter, “Darkness came down on the field and city: and Amelia was praying for George, who was lying on his face, dead, with a bullet through his heart.”

Posted by Sarasa (# 12271) on :

I find it very strange that vsiting battlefields appeared to be some sort of spectator sport at the time, if Pierre's visit later in the book is to be believed as being hsitorically accurate.
As for the frocks it wasn't the off the shoulder one that had me wondering about accuracy in the costume department, but the one wrn by Helene in ball near the end that appeared backless with some sort of cord fastening.
I'm enjoying it so far, and looking forward to the rest. I've even started re-reading the book.

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

It must be a period thing. At the First Battle of Manassas, at the beginning of the Civil War, people drove out from Washington DC to view the fun. Since the Union lost that battle it was not nearly as amusing as the spectators had hoped.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

Just watched the first episode. I enjoyed it - it is a well told story so far, with good characters, and while it is not W&P (because it would take a year not just 6 weeks), it is enjoyable.

I do remember the 1972 version, watched it, and loved it. My parents bought me the book, which I finally got to reading many years ago (it took me 3 months, reading on my tube journeys). I enjoyed the book, but I am not sure I followed it all.

The book is a wonderful work, and the conclusion is a great piece about the futility of war and, in particular, the futility of trying to organise war from afar.

I do think some of the casting is superb - Stephen Rea, Rebecca Front, Ade Edmondson are all fantastic in their respective roles, and all bring a certain style to distinguish the families.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

Many years ago, and I would have no idea how to trace it, I read a traveller's description of a visit to the site of Borodino somewhere around 1890. That is c 80 years later. He described that there were still bones visible.

Posted by St Everild (# 3626) on :

Has everyone given up on this.....?

I love the BBC adaptation, although I'm a bit bothered by how few clothes they wear when they are outdoors in the middle of the Russian winter....

Posted by Tree Bee (# 4033) on :

Still watching and enjoying. Loved the sequence as the sleighs travelled into the snowy forest, their passengers wrapped in furs. Reminded me of the Canadian tales my Grandad used to tell.
I too was bothered by the skimpy dresses and light shawls worn outside in wintry Moscow.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

I've tried to watch it but, having first seen the incredible film by Sergei Bondarchuk - it did win an Oscar and Golden Globe - have found the latest TV version very thin. The casting of Natasha, in particular, is dreadful.

Posted by Sarasa (# 12271) on :

I wouldn't go out in a British winter in those clothes, let alone a Russian one, but apart from that I'm really enjoying this.
I wasn't too sure at first, but now I think Andrew Davies has done a great job of getting the essence of the story. I still wish Pierre was about six inches taller though.

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :

I'm impressed with Ade Edmondson. In episode 1 with the little Cossack dance I thought he was the comic relief.

But he's keeping up with heavyweight actors like Gillian Anderson in the serious stuff too.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

Yes, I've been wondering about the skimpy clothes. Are they just very tough?

I thought last night's episode perked up a lot, and became a bit more Russian. I also liked the way Pierre threatened his lecherous brother-in-law.

Although it's about 50 years since I read the book, the sleigh ride through the snow to see the uncle and their experience of old Russia is something that really stands out in my memory as an important event in the book.

Posted by Alaric the Goth (# 511) on :

I've enjoyed the whole series. Last night's penultimate episode certainly brought the 'War' part home. It was such a well-recreated battle scene that it was difficult to believe it wasn't 'real'. Natasha (Lily James) is so lovely that I would be quite happy if it was entitled 'War and Natasha'!!!

Posted by Sarasa (# 12271) on :

I think it is getting better and better, the war scenes last night were so well done, specially the bit where Pierre was blown backwards. I'm still surpirsed that someone didn't forceably put him on a horse back to Moscow though, surely civilians in a bttle were a total liability.
Re-reading the book as I am (I'm just at the start of last nights episode, but according to my Kindle we have 50% of the story still to cover), I'm impressed at how Davies has managed to fillet the story out of it, and I think the severe editing is in some ways a good thing. I do wish he'd been given the money for a couple of extra episodes though, as it does seem a bit rushed in places.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

Although it covered a huge amount of ground, I thought this evening's final episode was excellent. I thought it conveyed well how those that had survived had grown up through it all. It was good to see Princess Maria after being sat on by her father for so long in the previous episodes, eventually take command of her own future.

Unexpected extras for me were the echoes of Goya at one point from the same war but the other end of Europe, and the flavour of the aftermath of the war in the later scenes with the drained feeling for the participants and the rebuilding of Moscow going on in the background.

Posted by Sarasa (# 12271) on :

ALthough I've very much enjoyed the series, I thought the last episode was a bit rushed, could have done with being quite a bit longer. All in all though it was much better than I feared it might be. The acting was pretty good, and I mostly thing Davies editing of such a sprawling story was spot on.
I'm racking my brains to remember the 1970s series as a comparison, but apart from Anthony Hopkins I can't remember much about it at all.

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