Ship of Fools: English National Anthem

Thread: English National Anthem Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :

MPs have given initial support to the idea of England adopting an official national anthem. So that teams representing England rather than the UK don't have to default to God Save The Queen.

The front-runners are (predictably) Jerusalem and Land of Hope and Glory.

Some have other ideas:

quote:
Mr Perkins said there had been a lot of interest in choosing an anthem when he spoke on radio stations across England.

"I won't say which area it was that thought the most appropriate choice for an English national anthem should be Heaven Knows I'm Miserable Now," he said.

"It will remain a secret between myself and the listeners of BBC Humberside, but it was perhaps reflective that each local area has its own sense of what Englishness means."

What would Shipmates pick?

Posted by Sipech (# 16870) on :

Go for all out ironic jingoism, in the form of Flanders & Swann's 'A Song of Patriotic Prejudice'. [lyrics]

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

I reckon "We're All in it together" by Grace Petrie would (with some minor updating) be perfect.

Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :

Put it to popular vote and there'll be a danger we end up with 'Vindaloo'

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
Put it to popular vote and there'll be a danger we end up with 'Vindaloo'

I believe it was Auberon Waugh who commented that a group of untrained English boys will make even the loveliest song sound like a football war chant, so why not just embrace it?

Posted by itsarumdo (# 18174) on :

The Arethusa probably captures traditional Englishness as well as anything else.

lyrics

Jerusalem is a song for revolutionaries, and I doubt that it will be chosen. Land of Hope and Glory - great tune, Proms, scarf waving, no ida what the lyrics are (Na Na Nanana Na Na..). Probably No. 1 choice.

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

We are the Champions?

There'll always be an England?

Who do you think you are kidding Mr Hitler?

Posted by itsarumdo (# 18174) on :

Actually there's probably a good contender in Les Barker's oevre

http://www.mrsackroyd.com/Poem-Index.html

Posted by Chill (# 13643) on :

Always look on the bright side of life...

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :

Instead of an anthem before the match, how about the Smith's Heaven Knows I'm Miserable Now after it.

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :

There's always Swing Low Sweet Chariot.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
There's always Swing Low Sweet Chariot.

Not a good idea. There are gestures associated with that which make it as unsuitable as Jerusalem.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

I'd vote for Land of Hope and Glory. Just the sort of "we are great" message a national anthem should convey.

Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I'd vote for Land of Hope and Glory. Just the sort of "we are great" message a national anthem should convey.

My instinct is to agree, but when it was used at the Commonwealth Games for England in 2002 the whole thing just didn't seem right to me. I think it might've been because it jumped straight to the chorus without the build up. I wonder whether Jerusalem is better for sporting events.

Posted by Uriel (# 2248) on :

Just do the theme tune to The Archers, and we "La la la la la la laaaa" along.

Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :

If you want to go really traditional then John Barleycorn would be appropriate.

But I do have a fondness in my heart for Wor Geordie's lost his penka.

Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :

Absolutely the best modern song to use, if you want a crowd singable one for sports events is Tubthumping.

Posted by Bob Two-Owls (# 9680) on :

An anthem doesn't necessarily have to be sung, there are quite a few instrumental anthems out there. This being so I suggest it is time our sportspersons stood to attention to the glorious strains of The Imperial March from Star Wars.

It would certainly make a statement.

Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :

The Hallelujah chorus would be fun, and the words would be easy to remember ....

Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I'd vote for Land of Hope and Glory. Just the sort of "we are great" message a national anthem should convey.

But it's about the British Empire, not England. No-one wants England's bounds to be set wider still and wider except for those odd people who want to get Monmouthshire back from the Welsh.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

OK then, if you want English, we'll have The Village Green Preservation Society.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

hosting/

To Heaven with this merriment.

/hosting

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

Maybe "They'll always be an England". I am sure some sporting crowds can amend the words appropriately.

"They'll always be an England
Who hates this Tory crap
And think the f*cking pigs head
Should have bitten back"

I could see that being sung.

Posted by Bob Two-Owls (# 9680) on :

Some London performance poet type came up to Sheffield University and sang a version in the Student Union causing a punch-up. The chorus I always remember goes:

"There'll always be an England
Just one that's split in two
the northerners just eat raw meat
and paint their faces blue."

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Great idea to have an English song for you before matches, but why the limited ambition? I'd submit this little number: good tune, wonderful self-deprecating lyrics, and could be trimmed if need be.

They're out of sorts in Sunderland And terribly cross in Kent,
They're dull in Hull And the Isle of Mull Is seething with discontent,
They're nervous in Northumberland And Devon is down the drain,
They're filled with wrath On the firth of Forth And sullen on Salisbury Plain;
In Dublin they're depressed, lads, Maybe because they're Celts
For Drake is going West, lads, And so is everyone else.
Hurray-hurray-hurray! Misery's here to stay.
There are bad times just around the corner

It might need editing ot cutting down (!) but it could be the first "anthem" to make people laugh.

(edited for copyright. I can remember when dear Noel was still with us)

[ 14. January 2016, 08:37: Message edited by: Firenze ]

Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
There's always Swing Low Sweet Chariot.
Not a good idea. There are gestures associated with that which make it as unsuitable as Jerusalem.

I've never understood why the English sing this at Rugby games. It's a spiritual from African slaves in the US who longed for death. Seriously why do you sing it let alone suggest for a national anthem, it seems really wrong to me.

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

Well, the World Cup was pretty depressing for England....

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

"Things can only get better"

Posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger (# 8891) on :

From Wikipedia

It was sung at a match in 1988, and was adopted from there on.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Maybe "They'll always be an England". I am sure some sporting crowds can amend the words appropriately.

"They'll always be an England
Who hates this Tory crap
And think the f*cking pigs head
Should have bitten back"

I could see that being sung.

Yes, because if there's one thing a national anthem needs to be it's politically divisive [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Maybe "They'll always be an England". I am sure some sporting crowds can amend the words appropriately.

"They'll always be an England
Who hates this Tory crap
And think the f*cking pigs head
Should have bitten back"

I could see that being sung.
Yes, because if there's one thing a national anthem needs to be it's politically divisive

So a song that is an appeal to a deity which most people don't believe in to support a hereditary ruler who some people don't agree with is OK then?

A national anthem is always going to be politically divisive. It is liable to be conservative, and so tend to alienate the more liberal minded.

Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Maybe "They'll always be an England". I am sure some sporting crowds can amend the words appropriately.

"They'll always be an England
Who hates this Tory crap
And think the f*cking pigs head
Should have bitten back"

I could see that being sung.
Yes, because if there's one thing a national anthem needs to be it's politically divisive

second verse is:

There'll always be an England
whose votes keep Labour out
and keep those braindead policies
still safely without clout

third:

There'll always be an England
that votes for the LibDems
but why they do that no one knows
they're sinking in the Thames

fourth:

There'll always be an England
that quite likes to vote Green
but what that will ever achieve
still remains to be seen

fifth:

some folks live north of England
and like the SNP
whatever will make them look good
will be their policy

sixth:

Some people west of England
cross their ballots for Plaid
but while they don't like Labourites
they're pretty red inside

seventh:

there are remaining Liberals,
who didn't want to merge
but like remaining SDP
they are a powerless dirge

I mean, presumably equal opportunities division is ok?
[Big Grin]

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

"Engerland, Engerland, Engerland..."

Simple tune, easy to remember.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

Another possibility would be to adopt a decent tune and not bother with words as these are bound to be divisive. GSTQ isn't well-loved north of the border and "Flower of Scotland" only seeks to balance it. They are both dirges and I can't see either of them inspiring anyone.

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
I've never understood why the English sing this at Rugby games. It's a spiritual from African slaves in the US who longed for death. Seriously why do you sing it let alone suggest for a national anthem, it seems really wrong to me.

Like many African-American spirituals, "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot" has layered meanings. It is about death, but it also about a longing for freedom. References to the Jordan River refer both to crossing from this world to the next, and going from the South to the North (whether north of the Ohio River or all the way to Canada). Songs like this were a "safe" way for slaves to express their longings.

Which to me, at least, doesn't make it any less strange a choice to be sung at rugby matches.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:

quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
I've never understood why the English sing this at Rugby games. It's a spiritual from African slaves in the US who longed for death. Seriously why do you sing it let alone suggest for a national anthem, it seems really wrong to me.
Like many African-American spirituals, "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot" has layered meanings. It is about death, but it also about a longing for freedom. References to the Jordan River refer both to crossing from this world to the next, and going from the South to the North (whether north of the Ohio River or all the way to Canada). Songs like this were a "safe" way for slaves to express their longings.

Which to me, at least, doesn't make it any less strange a choice to be sung at rugby matches.

It has been sung in rugby clubs for years. Mid-seventies at least. I'm pretty sure it became popular at the Middlesex Sevens.

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
It has been sung in rugby clubs for years. Mid-seventies at least. I'm pretty sure it became popular at the Middlesex Sevens.

Oh I know. But to an American Southerner, the mere fact that it has been and is regularly used this way is truly bizarre.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

I'm trying to imagine the whole crowd doing the hand gestures; wow, quite a surreal image. (Basically, hand movements imitating masturbation and other sexual antics).

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

Seeing as you're talking songs at sports, could you find any songs by Queen that would work? Given the name of the band, seems apropos. People sing along to We are the Champions, We Will Rock You, and Bohemian Rhapsody all the time here. I think I'd just choose the stomp/clap from We Will Rock You and leave it there.

Posted by Ferijen (# 4719) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Uriel:
Just do the theme tune to The Archers, and we "La la la la la la laaaa" along.

Dum de dum de dum de dum, surely...

Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on :

I think the absolute best would be Sandy Denny's mighty No End - the whole of the English condition in one song....

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ferijen:

quote:
Originally posted by Uriel:
Just do the theme tune to The Archers, and we "La la la la la la laaaa" along.
Dum de dum de dum de dum, surely...

Yes, everyone knows the Archers lyrics are

quote:
Dum de dum de dum de dum,
Dum de dum de dumm dumm,
Dum de dum de dum de dum,
Dum de diddle-de dum...

(It's said, really. I could probably have become an Archers fan if it weren't for that godawful tune that has me diving for the 'off' switch whenever I hear it.)

Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on :

quote:
Seeing as you're talking songs at sports, could you find any songs by Queen that would work?

Prince Charles might vote for 'Tie one's mother down (keep one's daddy out of doors, one don't need him nosing around)'...

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

[Killing me]

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

If we are going with Dum de dum tunes, maybe the Doctor Who theme?

Posted by Sipech (# 16870) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
If we are going with Dum de dum tunes, maybe the Doctor Who theme?

Plus, if we could sort of copy the New Zealand rugby team by having both a national anthem and their haka, we could introduce our "extra" in the form of the Mastermind theme, and all the players get to sit down for 90 seconds and look a bit nervous.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

Well, if we used Barwick Green (I think that's what the Archer's tune is called) our teams could enact a suitable bit of morris to counter the haka.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

"God save the Queen" by the Sex Pistols - seems appropriate given the messages the Government is putting out.

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Well, if we used Barwick Green (I think that's what the Archer's tune is called) our teams could enact a suitable bit of morris to counter the haka.

I think it might put the wind up the other team more if they imitated The Cloggies

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

I think I might have had in mind the punk side which performed in black bin liners with pins, and introduced moves including the knees and head butting. I saw them perform on the platform in front of St Martins in the Fields. I suspect a Cloggie influence.

Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
... Dum de dum de dum de dum,
Dum de dum de dumm dumm,
Dum de dum de dum de dum,
Dum de diddle-de dum ...

Apparently if you join the Archers fan club, you get a badge with that written on it. [Big Grin]

As a Scot (albeit one married to an Englishman), I don't really feel qualified to join in this thread; if I were, I'd probably vote for Jerusalem. The allegorical words don't bother me a jot - I just see it as rather nice imagery with a jolly good tune.

I suppose the other option would be Nimrod, but that always makes me want to cry.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Piglet:

As a Scot (albeit one married to an Englishman), I don't really feel qualified to join in this thread; if I were, I'd probably vote for Jerusalem. The allegorical words don't bother me a jot - I just see it as rather nice imagery with a jolly good tune.

I suppose the other option would be Nimrod, but that always makes me want to cry.

That would make it very suitable, for the performance of many of our sports teams does just that to me.

Posted by HarryLime (# 18525) on :

'Jerusalem' might not make a lot of sense, but it's stunning lyrically and musically, and if I were English, it would get my vote.

As a non-English person who's spent most of my life in England, I do regret this drifting apart of Britain. We're really not very different, you know. (Ireland excepted. I've never been there, so I don't have an opinion)

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

It seems to me that what is required is to separate the monarch's anthem from the national anthem.

In the case of Wales and Scotland, they've done that with Flower of Scotland (although as a muscian I wish they'd decide whether they want it to be in a natural or enharmonic minor key) and Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau; Northern Ireland has used The Londonderry Air for some sporting events so that just leaves England. If people want to sing then I guess it should be Jerusalem but for a tune I'd vote for Barwick Green.

So, keep God save the Queen for those occasions when the monarch is present - like our US cousins have Hail to the Chief - and use whichever national song is require otherwise.

A UK sports team will still have to use God save the Queen but surely someone could write a verse referring to the nation rather than the monarch?

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

After all, loads of others have words to "our" tune, so why not us as well?

[ 18. January 2016, 13:05: Message edited by: Penny S ]

Posted by Sparrow (# 2458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
It seems to me that what is required is to separate the monarch's anthem from the national anthem.

A UK sports team will still have to use God save the Queen but surely someone could write a verse referring to the nation rather than the monarch?

That might be a bit confusing. Why not just write a new verse for Jerusalem or I Vow to Thee My Country?

Posted by Rev per Minute (# 69) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:

A UK sports team will still have to use God save the Queen but surely someone could write a verse referring to the nation rather than the monarch?

God save the U...K
Don't let us break away
Fro-om each other.

Keep Britain in one piece,
English, Scots, Welsh, in peace,
And the-e Northern Irish,
Go-od save us all.

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