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What To Do: Refugees, Migrants, Undocumented Immigrants, Homeless... (Page 1)
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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: What To Do: Refugees, Migrants, Undocumented Immigrants, Homeless...
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
When, who, and why do we help? Where? Here? (Your particular "here".) Or where they came from?
Resources and energy aren't limitless, and we have to help local residents, too.
So what can we do? And what are the right things to do?
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
It is such a difficult question, isn't it? I have been listening to various phone-ins, comments on radio and articles in papers, but I'm afraid I'm going to remain on the sidelines.
There was one comment I heard yesterday: someone asked why the father of the two drowned boys and their mother who were on all the front pages subjected them to a sea journey in an over-loaded boat when they were already in Turkey.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
"No one puts their children in a boat unless the water is safer than the land" (Warsan Shire)
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I find the media really doesn't help to know the answer.
For one thing, it hopelessly distorts circumstances and numbers and focuses on what will fuel clicks rather than less exciting material that may be just as critically important.
For another, it fuels guilt, which in my experience and theology is a particularly bad motivator.
My personal commitment to social action is embodied right now by prison chaplaincy, a field I did not enter through guilt, in which I like to think I have some ability, can become familiar with some aspects of migrancy, and perhaps even do a little to help. I find it hard to envisage doing more.
If people want to do something more, my personal recommendation is to get involved with any reputable local non-profit association catering to migrants that has a good working relationship with local government. Useful abilities range from foreign languages to being able to dole out soup. Meeting people as fellow human beings is where solutions, experience, and changes in attitude can begin.
I also think that a long-term political solution involves giving migrants the right to work: any significant policy moves in that direction would be one of the things I'd look out for in terms of deciding who to vote for.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Humble Servant
Shipmate
# 18391
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Posted
We hear (particularly from our Prime Minister here in the UK) that helping individuals won't solve the problem, and we have to fix the problems that are causing them to migrate.
I fear that his "fix" is going to be more bombs, more guns, more death.
Posts: 241 | Registered: Apr 2015
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Humble Servant:
We hear (particularly from our Prime Minister here in the UK) that helping individuals won't solve the problem, and we have to fix the problems that are causing them to migrate.
I fear that his "fix" is going to be more bombs, more guns, more death.
One of the self-righteous types phoning in was a woman whose response was something on the lines of, 'We must face them with love.' When challenged by Stephen Nolan with the obvious statement that the IS have no respect at all for anyone's reasonable opinions, she of course had no even half-rational answer.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Humble Servant
Shipmate
# 18391
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
... she of course had no even half-rational answer.
The message of the cross is foolish to those who are headed for destruction! But we who are being saved know it is the very power of God.
Don't expect a rational answer if you live in "Christian country".
[edit - I hadn't finished before it submitted itself]
[ 05. September 2015, 06:57: Message edited by: Humble Servant ]
Posts: 241 | Registered: Apr 2015
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
I'm deeply ambivalent about this. The plight of the Syrians moved me a lot in the past couple of years. But I'm not comfortable with what I've seen recently. There are some terrible stories coming out and people in genuine need and of course they should be helped. But at the same time, the impression I'm getting is that many of the refugees seem to know exactly what they want and refuse to settle for anything less. If you really are desperate, do you refuse the first offer of help you get?
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
There was one comment I heard yesterday: someone asked why the father of the two drowned boys and their mother who were on all the front pages subjected them to a sea journey in an over-loaded boat when they were already in Turkey.
Yes. I read this article recently about one young Syrian's journey from Turkey to Sweden. The bit that stands out for me is:
"For two years in Istanbul, she enjoyed a comfortable life. Nour found work in a hair transplant salon, and later with Turkish state TV. She learnt Turkish, went horse-riding and dyed her hair blonde for the summer.
But she wanted to start a new life away from the region. She aimed to make it to the Swedish city of Gothenburg where her brother lives with his young family. There, she would apply for political asylum."
She and her mother were safe, they had a comfortable life, she had a job, and presumably friends. But she left her mother behind on her own in Turkey and embarked on a journey involving a lot of subterfuge and danger to get to Sweden.
Cameron is right that something needs to be done about the root problem. Trying to have a dialogue with Daesh isn't going to work.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Part of the solution has to be to address the issues at source. Why are people leaving their homes in such massive numbers? For Syria, it's obviously the ongoing war which has already resulted in 4 million people fleeing the country, and many more displaced within Syria. We're going to be faced with a Syrian refugee crisis until either the war is stopped and a moderate government established or the entire population has fled. And, of course, that isn't going to happen by sending over more bombs - that's just likely to make things worse. It doesn't help that there is no moderate government in waiting in Syria either - so an attempt to stop the war with more bombs will (at best) only give us another Libya.
But, stopping the conditions that result in people fleeing their own countries is a long term project. In the mean time there are crises all along the refugee routes. The first destination nations simply can't cope with the numbers (almost 2 million Syrians in Turkey, similar numbers shared between Lebanon and Jordan), these people need adequate housing, they need schools for their children, hospitals for the sick, food, water and clothing, jobs so that they can earn the money to pay their own way. Turkey can not provide that, so a minority (though still a large number of people) risk overcrowded boats to enter Europe.
Immediate action is needed to help those countries neighbouring Syria, and other source countries, to provide for the refugees there. Because that is where the majority will remain at least until the war finishes. And, coupled to that we need to provide refuge within Europe (and beyond) for a significant number of people - and, provide transport from the camps in Turkey or Libya so that they aren't going to drown in the Med or die in the back of trucks.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Humble Servant:
We hear (particularly from our Prime Minister here in the UK) that helping individuals won't solve the problem, and we have to fix the problems that are causing them to migrate.
This is such a stupid comment (from Mr Cameron, not from you). The last few years have shown the problems in Syria are pretty much insoluble by Europe. On the other hand, taking in refugees at least helps those refugees.
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
One of the self-righteous types phoning in was a woman whose response was something on the lines of, 'We must face them with love.' When challenged by Stephen Nolan with the obvious statement that the IS have no respect at all for anyone's reasonable opinions, she of course had no even half-rational answer.
On the other hand, I thought one of the key tenets of conflict resolution was 'de-escalation'. Except when it involves nations, of course, when it must be 'more dakka'.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
A few mixed thoughts...
1. I definitely think that making the places people are leaving into better places is the long term solution. Not only does that help refugees, it also discourages economic migrants. That is, however, a long term goal and frankly with some of the current situations, such as Syria, it's going to be pretty much all refugees and not much in the way of economic migrants.
2. It's necessary to have a good hard look at why people aren't claiming asylum in the first Refugee Convention country that they reach. (One also, consequently, has to look very carefully at which countries are signatories to the Convention, because in some cases - such as en route to Australia - a lot of commentary misses the fact that refugees have no rights at all in the transit countries.) Is it because there is no help for them there, or just because they are deciding they want to choose another country with a better economic deal? I don't think the Convention was ever meant to allow the latter kind of choice.
3A. Germany is not helping matters in the slightest by encouraging people to move there to claim asylum rather than staying put in some other safe location. We need a coordinated, joint effort to solve these problems, not countries going off on their own tack. And that's just as true for a country breaking ranks to "help" in that fashion as it for a country refusing to help.
3B. Countries further away need to help countries closer to the action
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
This seems to be being regarded as a European problem. It isn't, necessarily. Pressure needs to be put on Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states to start taking refugees. And why not Africa? It's not all unstable. There's a long tradition of Lebanese in West Africa, for example.
And further afield, why not America? It was very welcoming to refugees during WW2. Would they not help this time during a crisis of similar proportions?
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
The parallel that comes to my mind is the Vietnamese boat people in the late 70s, but continued into the 1990s. Similar stories of people taking to boats to escape an intolerable situation, the nearby countries becoming inundated and an international solution.
The big difference there was that the war was over.
(I remember this one well as where I worked at the time took a substantial number of Vietnamese workers who had come over as refugees and I was aware of some of the stories.)
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
One of the self-righteous types phoning in was a woman whose response was something on the lines of, 'We must face them with love.' When challenged by Stephen Nolan with the obvious statement that the IS have no respect at all for anyone's reasonable opinions, she of course had no even half-rational answer.
There is seldom a rational answer to a stupid question. The question makes the assumption that the refugees are ISIS or ISIS supporters rather than the truth that the vast majority if Iraqi and Syrian refugees are trying to get away from ISIS.
We must face them with love.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Ariel
Lets get some facts in here. The rest of the world is dealing with less than 10% of the refugees from Syrian that surrounding countries are.
The developing world houses 86% of all refugees. For instance Sudan (hardly the most prosperous of African countries) housed around 160k, compared to the UK 125K according to the World Bank.
Jengie
[ 05. September 2015, 08:20: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Germany is not helping matters in the slightest by encouraging people to move there to claim asylum rather than staying put in some other safe location.
Yeah, despite my previous post I think Mr Cameron is bang on the money when he says we should be taking refugees directly from the camps on the Syrian border.
The German approach turns asylum into a sort of Tomb Raider style challenge where if you break through all the deadly obstacles - or are rich enough to get reliable transport - you are rewarded with the right to claim. I think Germany is commendable in being willing to take a multiple of the number of claimants the UK is allowing but Mr Cameron is probably correct about the means of selecting those claimants.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
Let's get some facts in here. The rest of the world is dealing with less than 10% of the refugees from Syrian that surrounding countries are.
That was last year; things have escalated a bit since December. Here are some more facts for you.
The population of Syria is 23 million. Currently, 4 million have left as refugees/migrants, etc. A further 9 million are displaced internally.
Currently, roughly 3000 people a day arrive in Macedonia/Greece. Assuming that rate remains constant that would be just under 1 million a month.
Germany plans to take in 800,000. That is equivalent to the entire population of the city of Munich.
One person in 4 in Lebanon is a Syrian refugee. It may be that the actual numbers are higher, because not all of them have been registered. At present, the infrastructure is struggling to cope. Many refugees in Beirut are sleeping rough, under bridges, in doorways, on the seafront. The hospitals are having to cope with an influx of people with physical wounds from the wars and mental scars. Lebanon already has long-established Palestinian camps. There are tensions within both Syrian and Palestinian refugee camps - there always will be when you have large groups of troubled people, children with nothing to occupy them, and young men with nothing to do. Ethnic tensions are high and rising. Jordan and Turkey have similar problems.
The media have been focusing on the exodus of Syrians, but the ethnic mix of migrants also includes and is not limited to Iraqis, Palestinians, Kurds (some of these first three will fall into the category of double refugees, having fled to Syria for refuge in previous years), Afghans, Eritreans, Sudanese, Nigerians, Ghanaians, Bangladeshis, Pakistanis, Albanians and Vietnamese, all seeking to start new lives in the West.
[ 05. September 2015, 08:52: Message edited by: Ariel ]
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
European countries should get their act together and decide how many refugees each can take - many are doing too little too late. It's good to see Germany showing the way.
Cameron talks like a prat. Solving the problems in Syria etc is not something within our ability. Caring for those displaced is.
[ 05. September 2015, 09:04: Message edited by: Boogie ]
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I think we need quotas internationally, financial aid to the closest countries - and probably also practical help not just money. On the today programme one contributor was suggesting quotas should be designed based on landmass, current population and GDP per head - which seems a sensible set of factors to consider.
It would help if people could work whilst claims are processed. We also need a system for economic migrants that is in some way functional. We also need people to understand that the economy is in part fueled by how many people we actually have. It is not simply that people arrive and resources diminish.
It might help to document skills and quakifications at the same time as registering the claim.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
The media have been focusing on the exodus of Syrians, but the ethnic mix of migrants also includes and is not limited to Iraqis, Palestinians, Kurds (some of these first three will fall into the category of double refugees, having fled to Syria for refuge in previous years), Afghans, Eritreans, Sudanese, Nigerians, Ghanaians, Bangladeshis, Pakistanis, Albanians and Vietnamese, all seeking to start new lives in the West.
The Internet is playing a large part in encouraging people to leave their homelands in search of a better life. Some of the refugees sleeping rough in European countries post I-phone images of themselves standing next to new cars which they pretend to own. Which in turn encourages more to embark on hazardous journeys under false pretences.
The world has fudged over the Mid East for a very long time, civil wars and famines have occurred in Africa for even longer. However mass migration, in the way we,re seeing it now, is a new phenomenon. One which has to be dealt in isolation to these other problems.
Many of us are mistaken in playing Molly Brown to the current refugee problem in Europe. The problems in Syria could be remedied if the joint global political will was there to do it. As we know, sadly, such a will does not exist. All we can do to help is continue in lending assistance to people in their own countries, and stand firm against chaos, including the chaos of open boarders and an unsustainable immigration policy.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Course, we could cancel the national debts of the closest countries and use the interest payment money for the refugee crisis. Billions a month seems like it would be helpful ...
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
The media have been focusing on the exodus of Syrians, but the ethnic mix of migrants also includes and is not limited to Iraqis, Palestinians, Kurds (some of these first three will fall into the category of double refugees, having fled to Syria for refuge in previous years), Afghans, Eritreans, Sudanese, Nigerians, Ghanaians, Bangladeshis, Pakistanis, Albanians and Vietnamese, all seeking to start new lives in the West.
The Internet is playing a large part in encouraging people to leave their homelands in search of a better life. Some of the refugees sleeping rough in European countries post I-phone images of themselves standing next to new cars which they pretend to own. Which in turn encourages more to embark on hazardous journeys under false pretences.
The world has fudged over the Mid East for a very long time, civil wars and famines have occurred in Africa for even longer. However mass migration, in the way we,re seeing it now, is a new phenomenon. One which has to be dealt in isolation to these other problems.
Many of us are mistaken in playing Molly Brown to the current refugee problem in Europe. The problems in Syria could be remedied if the joint global political will was there to do it. As we know, sadly, such a will does not exist. All we can do to help is continue in lending assistance to people in their own countries, and stand firm against chaos, including the chaos of open boarders and an unsustainable immigration policy.
Mass migration is definitely not new, it is how the world wass populated, and there have been waves ever since. Colonisation was also a form of mass migration.
Explain to me what is unstustainable about our net immigration + birthrate levels ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
The Internet is playing a large part in encouraging people to leave their homelands in search of a better life. Some of the refugees sleeping rough in European countries post I-phone images of themselves standing next to new cars which they pretend to own. Which in turn encourages more to embark on hazardous journeys under false pretences.
Not just the internet: it's in the traffickers' interests to persuade people to part with huge sums of money. Of course they're not going to tell them that the boats will be hopelessly overcrowded, that they may die long before they ever reach their chosen destination, that they will be maltreated, threatened with guns and have the rest of their money and maybe their belongings taken by the traffickers on route, that they may be crammed into a lorry with the doors welded and no air. The traffickers sell people in need a vision and an illusion of hope and they don't care how they enforce payment. Trafficking is a serious evil that urgently needs to be addressed and stamped out.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
How can you distinguish between a political refugee, an economic migrant and a potential sleeper terrorist? Those coming out of Syria are, by an overwhelming majority, political refugees seeking desperately to escape from an intolerable situation. And as Ariel observes, mixed in with them are folks from many other countries with a wide variety of motives for wanting to live in Europe.
This isn't simple at all.
Like Doublethink, I think there probably is a need for some kind of quota system but there is also a need for some consistent screening process. It is really hard to do the latter well, when dealing with people in great distress. The genuine ones must think their plight is obvious to anyone with half a brain. The fellow-travellers know that as well.
In the UK, this also getting mixed up hopelessly with membership of the EC and seems likely to colour the referendum debates.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Let them ALL come and share them ALL out on a population size basis in ALL of Europe.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Martin, I don't think any government these days can turn a blind eye to the potential security risks of a completely "open doors" policy. That's leaving on one side the vexed questions of accommmodation, education, economic support etc.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
The parallel that comes to my mind is the Vietnamese boat people in the late 70s, but continued into the 1990s. Similar stories of people taking to boats to escape an intolerable situation, the nearby countries becoming inundated and an international solution.
The big difference there was that the war was over.
(I remember this one well as where I worked at the time took a substantial number of Vietnamese workers who had come over as refugees and I was aware of some of the stories.)
It's a parallel that's been raised here along the way. Malcolm Fraser was the Australian Prime Minister at the time - from the Conservative side of Australian politics - and he stared down some of his own government to insist that Australia welcome the boat people.
He died earlier this year, but in the last couple of years he had a fair bit to say about our current government, from the same party, and none of it was complimentary. He resigned from the party. Among other things, he was appalled by our current "turn back the boats" strategy which others are being encouraged to adopt.
It's worth reading the Wikipedia page about him just to get a bit more flavour of a man who considered human rights extremely important in his political career.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
How can you distinguish between a political refugee, an economic migrant and a potential sleeper terrorist? Those coming out of Syria are, by an overwhelming majority, political refugees seeking desperately to escape from an intolerable situation. And as Ariel observes, mixed in with them are folks from many other countries with a wide variety of motives for wanting to live in Europe.
The sleeper terrorists need to be weeded out for sure. But there's nothing wrong with economic migrants imo.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Does "screening" for "sleeper terrorists" result in less terrorists in one's country, than treating refugees like shit and thereby radicalising a subset of your existing population ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
You can weed out people for whom there's evidence of them having done something - whether it's associations or whatever - but apart from that, you can't spot future terrorists any better than you can spot future burglars, future rapists, or future American shooting spree killers.
The world is not a risk free place, and given that one of the factors involved in creating terrorists is treating people like shit, trying to exclude people on the basis of vague ideas about what you think they might become later on is likely to be counterproductive.
EDIT: Cross-post/Snap.
[ 05. September 2015, 11:02: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
That's politics Barnabas62.
We're Christians.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
That little boy.
I'M GUILTY of 'Yeah but ...' until that happened.
(I mean never mind the thousand that have died elsewhere at sea ...)
God forgive me.
LET THEM IN.
[ 05. September 2015, 11:39: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
How can you distinguish between a political refugee, an economic migrant and a potential sleeper terrorist?
As you say, it isn't simple at all. It isn't helped by incidents like this.
[ 05. September 2015, 11:52: Message edited by: Ariel ]
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
It's VERY simple.
Let them in.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
The sleeper terrorists need to be weeded out for sure.
Would Syrians sympathetic to IS be leaving the country in the first place? Wouldn't those inclined towards armed struggle already be fighting in Syria? A terrorist attack in Europe requires some sort of organisation. An immigrant straight off the boat would need to get hold of some guns or explosives, that isn't going to happen unless there's an existing cell waiting for him. If a terrorist group is organised enough to get a cell in Europe to procure weapons and explosives they're not going to rely on the rather chaotic refugee migration routes and people smugglers with overcrowded boats and trucks. There would be more secure routes they could take to get someone in, or recruit someone locally.
Which basically means I consider the chances of an active terrorist entering Europe with the refugees is so close to zero that it can be discounted. On the other hand, if those refugees are dumped in inadequate accommodation, not allowed to work, treated almost like animals by the authorities the chances of some of them becoming radicalised and turning to terrorism are very much higher.
quote:
But there's nothing wrong with economic migrants imo.
Every study I've ever seen has shown that migrants are a net economic gain to the host country if they are integrated reasonably well into society (ie: allowed to work and/or study). The UK, and probably the rest of Europe, has desperate labour shortages in some sectors. The NHS depends heavily on non-UK doctors and nurses. There is a housing crisis due to low rates of house building and we are short of bricklayers, plumbers, electricians, plasterers etc to build houses. Without immigrants vast swathes of our agricultural produce would go unharvested.
The group of migrants that almost always cost the host nation are asylum seekers - usually because they are not allowed to work while their application is processed, and that processing takes a long time and costs money. Which is where Germany has been smart, they have effectively removed the cost of processing asylum applications by declaring that anyone from Syria doesn't need to demonstrate they are fleeing from imminent danger - cutting the costs to practically nothing and allowing these people to enter the workforce straight away, reducing the costs of providing welfare for them.
The refugees and migrants coming to Europe are a self-selected group. By definition they are the people with the resources to come this far. That may be determination, resourcefulness etc. More likely it's because they have (or, had) money. That almost certainly means they are professional, educated people (doctors, dentists, lawyers, teachers etc), skilled workers or entrepreneurs who have built up businesses (and then seen them destroyed by bombs from one side or the other). These are people that will rapidly make a contribution to the economies of their host nations if given the chance. Though, in some cases there may be difficulties establishing their qualifications - with certificates charred paper in the ruins of their homes, and no chance of anyone giving them a reference.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Would Syrians sympathetic to IS be leaving the country in the first place? Wouldn't those inclined towards armed struggle already be fighting in Syria?
Not necessarily. The latest tactic is for jihadists to return to their previous countries somehow and launch lone wolf attacks or organize local ones. The recent French train incident shows how much damage one man by himself could achieve. So yes, those sympathetic to IS may well be seizing the opportunity to cross back in.
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The refugees and migrants coming to Europe are a self-selected group. By definition they are the people with the resources to come this far. That may be determination, resourcefulness etc. More likely it's because they have (or, had) money. That almost certainly means they are professional, educated people (doctors, dentists, lawyers, teachers etc), skilled workers or entrepreneurs who have built up businesses (and then seen them destroyed by bombs from one side or the other).
Not only but also. They come literally from all walks of life: not all are from cities, some are from rural backgrounds. Some are wealthy enough to have paid for taxis to take them from Hungary to Germany, others haven't a penny and nothing but the clothes they're wearing. Determination springs from the drive to survive, not a background of confidence and wealth.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
The recent French train incident shows how much damage one man by himself could achieve.
Does it? In that case the answer is "not a lot".
Seriously? Is that the best incident you can come up with? Was it necessary for your example for the person to be Muslim? Because there are a heck of a lot of other people who've managed far worse. If you want to see how much damage one man by himself could achieve, look at Anders Breivik.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Yes, I said some had simply determination. Which is the sort of characteristic that employers would value.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
It's silly to think that the only "useful" refugees are educated professionals in any case.
Do you know what happened when we used to let Afghan refugees work here, before a whole lot of Kafkaesque rules got put in place? All the rural Afghanis went to the small Aussie farming towns and took jobs like fruit-picking. They were happy, the communities were happy... and then the politicians started ruining it on "principle".
It's utter madness to stop asylum seekers from working. I assume the theory is that you don't want them settling into the community, but the end result is you stop them settling into the community. No integration, no contribution to economic growth, just a lot of frustrated and bored people left in legal and monetary limbo.
Gee, I can't imagine how that could ever go badly. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
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Does it? In that case the answer is "not a lot".
Seriously? Is that the best incident you can come up with? Was it necessary for your example for the person to be Muslim?
Well, most members of IS are Muslim and I was thinking of their "lone wolf" attacks. If it hadn't been for the off-duty marines, his attack would have resulted in a massacre followed by an explosion and setting the train on fire. It was just pure good luck that they got hold of him and prevented him from doing that.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
It's silly to think that the only "useful" refugees are educated professionals in any case.
...
It's utter madness to stop asylum seekers from working. I assume the theory is that you don't want them settling into the community, but the end result is you stop them settling into the community. No integration, no contribution to economic growth, just a lot of frustrated and bored people left in legal and monetary limbo.
Gee, I can't imagine how that could ever go badly.
I entirely agree. And, I thought my example of the UK dependency on immigrants to harvest our fruit and veg would have made it clear that I wasn't talking just about educated immigrants.
Preventing anyone from working is a recipe for disaster, whoever they are.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
I keep thinking about the large number of houses here that are left empty for 9 months of the year, mostly starting now. We could probably house 500 people extra on this island alone for the next 6 months while more permanent accommodation is built. School capacity might be a problem depending on the proportion that are children. We could probably find permanent work to support as many as a dozen families and that many wouldn't overstretch our local services, excepting a short term need for interpreters.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
As I said in response to Steve Chalke's FB feed
"I'm SICK of hearing my OWN 'Yeah buts.' Steve! Thanks to you. Open ALL the borders and share them ALL based on a fag packet population by a per capita GDP multiplier. It's not just the Christian thing to do, it's the economic 3rd way. PEOPLE are a blessing."
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Does "screening" for "sleeper terrorists" result in less terrorists in one's country, than treating refugees like shit and thereby radicalising a subset of your existing population ?
Heck I don't have any problems with benefit of the doubt. But I think Ariel and I must have been looking at the same data. Why should you trust a cheat, masquerading as a Syrian refugee? It is actually possible to spot frauds, there are frauds in the queues, there are people making money out of producing and selling fraudulent documents.
Unpleasant as the consequences are, and they do seem to be that to me as well, immigration officers and security agencies have live with this stuff every day, try to produce necessary protective measures. These aren't "buts", they are a part of the real situation on the ground.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Unpleasant as the consequences are, and they do seem to be that to me as well, immigration officers and security agencies have live with this stuff every day, try to produce necessary protective measures. These aren't "buts", they are a part of the real situation on the ground.
You'd do more to prevent terrorism (as well as vastly reducing the number of refugees) if there was a concerted aim to stop funneling more arms into the conflict zone. Stuff like this:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/08/31/petraeus-use-al-qaeda-fighters-to-beat-isis.html
Should be treated as aiding and abetting the terrorists (and lets be clear - these aren't just proposals, these kinds of things already go on). The same with any UAE, Qatari and Saudi official with any links to groups funding ISIS - funds frozen and persona non grata anywhere in the west, and subject to arrest.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Refugee crises are indeed symptoms of other prior failings. Treating these failings at source is a good principle. It still doesn't change the present problems, though it may alleviate future ones.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Refugee crises are indeed symptoms of other prior failings. Treating these failings at source is a good principle. It still doesn't change the present problems, though it may alleviate future ones.
There is a very small gap between the 'prior' and the present in this case. The Kurdish forces fighting ISIS have in the past month been bombed by Turkey - is that more or less likely to see more people leave Syria?
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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