Originally posted by SusanDoris:
As you are probably aware, Mark Twain was a well-known atheist; I googled Mark Twain atheist and there's a good page of his relevant quotes!
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for you and for your friend, Jude. All you can do is to continue to pray, and to give support to your friend in every way possible.
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quote:I see a lot of prayer which is (unconsciously) aimed at the audience. I know an unemployed person who puts up FaceBook requests for prayer for his situation. Guess what? 'God provides abundantly' - in other words, people who read the prayers help this person out. Shame they don't get the credit.
Originally posted by Ariel:
If you don’t deal with the problem yourself, or your fellow human beings don’t, nothing intangible is going to come to your rescue and provide that miracle to order.
quote:And sometimes, not even comfort.
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Expect no miracles. Expect only comfort. That's all that is on offer. It's all that ever was on offer and all that ever will be.
quote:Yeah, I've heard that one from churchy keenies of all stripes. It's not, actually, particularly helpful, because it merely works by redefining "unanswered" to a point where it has no meaning.
Originally posted by Anglicano:
A Roman Catholic friend once told me, "there is no such thing as an unanswered prayer".
quote:Ironically, as an Open Theist, prayer has more of a purpose, not less. We do believe prayer changes things-- or can change things-- so we have a greater commitment to prayer. But we do not believe that everything that happens is God's will, even when we pray. So, while we have a greater calling to intercede prayerfully, we don't look for some "greater purpose" when our prayers aren't answered. Unanswered prayer is part of the continued crappiness of our broken and fallen world, and part of the reason we pray "Maranatha: come Lord Jesus, come".
Originally posted by Boogie:
Thank you cliffdweller, I gave up praying after my mum died. There had been no let up for her for six years. But the comfort is still there even when I don't seek it. I rail against God and work hard to lose my faith, but, so far, God's comfort remains.
How/why to ever pray again - I can't think of a reason.
quote:Well said ... and the last sentence is absolutely the most important.
Originally posted by Firenze:
I am with Ariel. There is no Santa Claus. There is only the necessity to live in this now, this moment, however intolerable that seems. To do that, because you must, and find you can do it - because you must: there is a sort of strength in that that sometimes turns to peace.
That and the solidarity of other people.
quote:That's true. It's only comfort if you find it. It might be something else, like rage and resignedness.
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:And sometimes, not even comfort.
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Expect no miracles. Expect only comfort. That's all that is on offer. It's all that ever was on offer and all that ever will be.
All I know is, we waste too much time making excuses for God. Explaining his absence. Justifying his silence. Really, what sort of God is it whose worshippers feel they constantly have to apologise for him?
quote:Can you think of one thing in your life which can only be explained by something non-natural?
Originally posted by HCH:
In "The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn", Huck is told he should pray, so he tries it, and he gets (if I remember correctly) a fishing line but no hooks. He is then told he should pray for spiritual gifts, but he has no idea what that means, and he stops praying. Nonetheless, it seems clear that God does look out for him.
For many of us, most of our prayers should be thank-yous. Don't ask God for more blessings; thank God for what you have already received.
quote:Hear, hear. Prayer doesn't work (as in 'produce any kind of verifiable result') because prayer doesn't work.
Originally posted by Martin60:
And He guides us in every possible way except literally.
It's way past time to put away childish things kids.
quote:Actually, if you google Mark Twain's religious beliefs what you find is not that he is a "well-known atheist" but rather that his actual religious beliefs are a topic of
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
As you are probably aware, Mark Twain was a well-known atheist; I googled Mark Twain atheist and there's a good page of his relevant quotes!
quote:I didn't mean to suggest we should look for and expect to find, recognize (or agree with) a "bigger purpose." Most people I've known who guess "God is doing this to achieve that purpose" obviously get it wrong.
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Maybe it's just me, but I have trouble with the "look for the bigger purpose" answer.
quote:None of the big questions have well thought out answers that are cut and dried and hold water really well. If they did they'd no longer be Big Questions. Make of it what you will.
Originally posted by Trin:
I'm 29 and coming to a point in life where I'm seriously and deeply questioning the implications of questions like the one raised in the OP.
I find it quite discouraging that Christians twice my age don't seem to have worked out any solid answers to these things either. (That's not based just on reading this forum.)
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quote:Well it all hangs on how you define natural. If you mean "fully explained by a set of deterministic chemical/biological processes which are measureable in principle, if not in practice due to their complexity" then I would cite anything down to the free choice of free non-determined individuals. You are quite welcome to believe freedom and consciousness are essentially illusions but I disagree. Yes you can mount a case for it, a la Daniel Dennett, but I am just not convinced.
Can you think of one thing in your life which can only be explained by something non-natural?
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quote:I think I've worked out some pretty solid answers on this: prayer doesn't change God. If the purpose is to get God to do something and/or to change his mind about something, then that's not going to happen.
Originally posted by Trin:
I'm 29 and coming to a point in life where I'm seriously and deeply questioning the implications of questions like the one raised in the OP.
I find it quite discouraging that Christians twice my age don't seem to have worked out any solid answers to these things either. (That's not based just on reading this forum.)
quote:The problem might be that God's ways are not our ways?
Originally posted by Trin:
I find it quite discouraging that Christians twice my age don't seem to have worked out any solid answers to these things either. (That's not based just on reading this forum.)
quote:Some very smart people have been trying to work out what Christ was up to for two thousand years, and that's on top of work done by Jews, Greeks and others. Glib phrases like "God works in mysterious ways" annoy the heck out of me and I wish there were answers too, but I can't help thinking that if there were solid answers, faith wouldn't be a matter of faith, just dry, systematic scholarship.
Originally posted by Trin:
I'm 29 and coming to a point in life where I'm seriously and deeply questioning the implications of questions like the one raised in the OP.
I find it quite discouraging that Christians twice my age don't seem to have worked out any solid answers to these things either. (That's not based just on reading this forum.)
quote:Then why bother?
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I think I've worked out some pretty solid answers on this: prayer doesn't change God. If the purpose is to get God to do something and/or to change his mind about something, then that's not going to happen.
quote:We're all different characters/personalities. We each relate to God in our own way. We all ask different questions and need different answers, maybe different answers at different times.
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:None of the big questions have well thought out answers that are cut and dried and hold water really well. If they did they'd no longer be Big Questions. Make of it what you will.
Originally posted by Trin:
I'm 29 and coming to a point in life where I'm seriously and deeply questioning the implications of questions like the one raised in the OP.
I find it quite discouraging that Christians twice my age don't seem to have worked out any solid answers to these things either. (That's not based just on reading this forum.)
quote:(I understood this part is earlier, not later.)
Tortuf:
(sans the later addition of the "he got more stuff so everything is OK and better")
quote:Hope.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:Then why bother?
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I think I've worked out some pretty solid answers on this: prayer doesn't change God. If the purpose is to get God to do something and/or to change his mind about something, then that's not going to happen.
quote:I couldn't comment on whether or not it's a Jewish pov, but it's certainly not a Christian one, since Christians believe God intervened in a rather big way a few hundred years later...
Originally posted by Tortuf:
I heard this morning that Job is at the end of the Jewish Testament because (sans the later addition of the "he got more stuff so everything is OK and better") it is an announcement that God is done intervening in the world.
Don't know if it is true. It is interesting.
quote:Absolutely true IMV.
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:I think I've worked out some pretty solid answers on this: prayer doesn't change God.
Originally posted by Trin:
I'm 29 and coming to a point in life where I'm seriously and deeply questioning the implications of questions like the one raised in the OP.
I find it quite discouraging that Christians twice my age don't seem to have worked out any solid answers to these things either. (That's not based just on reading this forum.)
quote:If God already knows what you are feeling, why does God not know the feelings of those in areas run by, for instance, IS? Perhaps you think he does, and does nothing on purpose?
Originally posted by Philip Charles:
God already knows what you are feeling so your expressed fury etc is a sign of the trust you have in him..
quote:Thank you for the link which I have read- very interesting and I hadn't seen it before. Bearing in mind his wife's belief and the time in which he lived, I think he would be very happy in today's world of communication to be known as a well-known atheist!
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Actually, if you google Mark Twain's religious beliefs what you find is not that he is a "well-known atheist" but rather that his actual religious beliefs are a topic of
great debate.
The article has to work quite hard to find quotes which could identify him as a believer. quote:Agreed! He was a one-off though, wasn't he?
He certainly was a sharp critic of American fundamentalist Christianity-- in a way that would fit in quite well here at the Ship. Religion appears to be an area of great interest for him, both the negative but also the positive (his take on Joan of Arc). But whether he was an atheist, agnostic, Deist, or liberal Christian is a matter of significant and ongoing debate.
quote:Rather a naive comment. The world has plenty of evil people who try to defy God. And it always has had.
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
quote:If God already knows what you are feeling, why does God not know the feelings of those in areas run by, for instance, IS? Perhaps you think he does, and does nothing on purpose?
Originally posted by Philip Charles:
God already knows what you are feeling so your expressed fury etc is a sign of the trust you have in him..
quote:
quote:Originally posted by Philip Charles:
quote:.
God already knows what you are feeling so your expressed fury etc is a sign of the trust you have in him.
If God already knows what you are feeling, why does God not know the feelings of those in areas run by, for instance, IS? Perhaps you think he does, and does nothing on purpose?
quote:Of course he knows No one ever said the world was fair or that there was no injustice or that God's knowledge would stop it. God suffered this injustice himself at the crucifixion.
quote:Originally posted by Philip Charles:
quote:.
God already knows what you are feeling so your expressed fury etc is a sign of the trust you have in him.
If God already knows what you are feeling, why does God not know the feelings of those in areas run by, for instance, IS? Perhaps you think he does, and does nothing on purpose?
quote:If God sees suffering and is able to act, but chooses not to act, then he is a very naughty god. If he's as nice as we are told in at least a few books in Bible (rather than those passages where he seems like a tyrant) then we can only hope that he is either unable to act or has a rule that he will not act—otherwise we face a God capable of tremendous cruelty.
Originally posted by Philip Charles:
OOps, try again.
Quoted by Susan Doris
quote:Of course he knows No one ever said the world was fair or that there was no injustice or that God's knowledge would stop it. God suffered this injustice himself at the crucifixion.
quote:Originally posted by Philip Charles:
quote:.
God already knows what you are feeling so your expressed fury etc is a sign of the trust you have in him.
If God already knows what you are feeling, why does God not know the feelings of those in areas run by, for instance, IS? Perhaps you think he does, and does nothing on purpose?
quote:Fascinating! Thank you. And yet the same dissonance is captured so beautifully.
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Excellent posts, Komensky. Just pointing out that 'born sick and commanded to be well' was quoted by Hitchens, and is much older in origin actually, from Fulke Greville, an Elizabethan poet, this written about 1609.
Oh wearisome Condition of Humanity!
Born under one law, to another bound:
Vainly begot and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound.
(Mustapha).
I don't think that Greville intended it as an argument against theism.
quote:No, I suppose a better way of saying what I mean would be to refer to things that happen anyway, regardless of whether people believe in God/god/s or not; and that, of course, is everything.
Originally posted by anteater:
SusanDoris:
quote:Well it all hangs on how you define natural. If you mean "fully explained by a set of deterministic chemical/biological processes which are measureable in principle, if not in practice due to their complexity" then I would cite anything down to the free choice of free non-determined individuals.
Can you think of one thing in your life which can only be explained by something non-natural?
quote:Since the words ‘freedom’ and consciousness’ came into being, their range of definitions has expanded so that, even with checking their distant origins, we’ll never know exactly what the originators had in mind. Whatever it was, it hoped to be a word to describe and discuss different aspects and behaviours of humans. Some people have then tried to define them as being somehow independent of humans and human understanding.
You are quite welcome to believe freedom and consciousness are essentially illusions but I disagree.
quote:Do you have a link to what Daniel Dennett said, please?
Yes you can mount a case for it, a la Daniel Dennett, but I am just not convinced.
quote:I cannot see any reason why such reasoning by a Christian should be counted as ‘broader’ than a non-believer’s identical opinion. The Christian reasoning includes the unnecessary complexity of a God, instead of crediting humans with the evolved ability to act, whether or not such actions are split-second-ly decided on by the brain.
Of course, Christians have a broader concept of natural and would class, say, the decision of my wife to marry me, as entirely natural but not pre-determined.
quote:*I’ve listened to this several times - do you mean ‘an’?
So natural for most christians can include non-material causes, and non-natural would imply anything not part of the natural order, like as* Ass speaking.
quote:Yes, certainly, but that does not mean I cannot think about and consider every idea considered to be of God (god/s) by theists.
But most atheists are also materialists which is why I sort of assume you are.
quote:I entirely agree! And it’s in the atheist sense of natural too!
In the christian sense of natural, nothing has happened outside it, which is ok with me. It gets too random for me if Asses speak. Life's complicated enough without that.
quote:Yes: dissatisfaction.
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Can you think of one thing in your life which can only be explained by something non-natural?
quote:That's pretty, but surely there are quite a lot of explanations of dissatisfaction. For example, in some areas of Buddhism, there is the idea that the ego has split itself from reality, and then yearns to return 'home'. This does not involve God.
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
quote:Yes: dissatisfaction.
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Can you think of one thing in your life which can only be explained by something non-natural?
I know of only one plausible explanation for it: You have made us for Yourself, and our souls are restless until they rest in You.
Prayer, then, is not intended to supply our wants, but to remind us that there is only one way to be entirely satisfied, and to bring us as close as possible to that satisfaction in this life.
quote:I can think of lots SD.
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
quote:Yes: dissatisfaction.
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Can you think of one thing in your life which can only be explained by something non-natural?
O
I know of only one plausible explanation for it: You have made us for Yourself, and our souls are restless until they rest in You.
Prayer, then, is not intended to supply our wants, but to remind us that there is only one way to be entirely satisfied, and to bring us as close as possible to that satisfaction in this life.
quote:Well, to use the example in hand, because they continue to act like prayer does work.
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Why would you expect Christians twice your age to have developed clearer answers, Trin?
quote:I guess this depends on which church you go to.
Trin: I've noticed that no one tells you that prayer doesn't work before hand. Occasionally one of these conversations happens and the old "ah but who is prayer really for?" line comes out, but if that's what we actually believe, it's odd that it isn't taught that way right from Sunday school, or talked about in those terms during the sermon at the 6:30 service.
quote:I appreciate the response. It's often been said to me in recent years that "if we had all the answers we wouldn't need faith". It doesn't sit well with me because I feel that as a line of reasoning it turns "faith" itself into the end goal, rather than the tool by which we get to some other end goal.
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
... I can't help thinking that if there were solid answers, faith wouldn't be a matter of faith, just dry, systematic scholarship.
quote:This is just my opinion, but seeing the words 'faith' and 'goal' in the same sentence feels weird to me. Faith isn't a goal and doesn't have a goal. Goal-orientedness doesn't seem the right dimension for me to talk about faith.
Trin: It doesn't sit well with me because I feel that as a line of reasoning it turns "faith" itself into the end goal, rather than the tool by which we get to some other end goal.
quote:I do have the feeling that what 'mainstream Christian' is, differs from place to place.
Ikkyu: While I sympathize with praying being useful for comfort and as a form of meditation, both uses I find sensible, I don't think that is the mainstream Christian claim.
Claiming that Christianity does not teach that our prayers will be answered, might be true for some liberal theologies but is not the bill of goods being sold by most churches.
quote:But you sometimes do. I never do. Never have. Never will. I thank Them for Their provision, including and especially this. In my frequent prayers.
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I continue to pray, and I continue to hope for the answers I want (which of course I don't always get), but I'm bothered by the idea of prayer "working," as if it were some sort of automatic process or maybe a spell.
quote:That's what it is for you. Your story. Your take. It isn't for me. It never will be. As the Person I talk to is not unpredictable at all: They never answer my requests. Except in Their provision. And for me, They never answer anyone else's. And that is so encouraging. I lie of course, as try as I might only to ask rhetorical questions, I make petitions, a useless, tearful one for Pauline Cafferky yesterday. When she's dead I will thank Them for her life and look forward to meeting her. If she lives it will be by the miracles of science and her constitution. But she will never recover fully in this life. It's not possible. I was bitten by a Rottweiler just over a year ago. The chewed up finger looked like I'd been holding a hand grenade too long. Not a mark on it now. Works fine. The crushed one next to it will never work properly again.
Prayer is asking. Asking a person, who can be just as unpredictable as any person is, and who has free will to do what he wants with my request. So when I don't get the answer I hope for, I'm forced to deal with the question of "why did he say no, or not yet?" which is an even bigger can of worms.
quote:I have Them figured out in the elephant shaped hole in the room of any expectation in life whatsoever. That's the procedure.
But that's also sort of a good thing for me, because it's easier for me to remember that I don't have God completely figured out ("My thoughts are not your thoughts," says the Lord) than to think that I'm screwing up some sort of procedure.
quote:For me there's nothing to forgive Them for. They've done it all and will yet. And therefore that'll do for now. I have that underlying personal knowledge of God. I have no reason to go away with the idea that either God is a jerk or non-existent.
And because of the way I know him, and he me, it is easier to ... forgive? ... his not reacting the way I want/expect him to when I pray. It would be much harder and lead me to some nasty conclusions about him if I didn't know otherwise already. Which is why it doesn't surprise me a bit that those, like Huck, who pray without apparently any underlying personal knowledge of God, quickly go away with the idea that either God is a jerk or nonexistent.
quote:Indeed. I've been taught since I don't know when that there is only one prayer that always works: "Lord, let they will, not my will, be done."
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:I guess this depends on which church you go to.
Trin: I've noticed that no one tells you that prayer doesn't work before hand. Occasionally one of these conversations happens and the old "ah but who is prayer really for?" line comes out, but if that's what we actually believe, it's odd that it isn't taught that way right from Sunday school, or talked about in those terms during the sermon at the 6:30 service.
quote:Open Theists would suggest that with something like healing we can assume that it is God's will-- because it is always God's will to heal, to restore. So we don't need to ask "if it is..." because we can assume that it is. But we also know that not everything that God wills happens in the world right now-- and this may be one of those cases. So our friend may not be healed, but it's not because God didn't will it to be so.
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:Indeed. I've been taught since I don't know when that there is only one prayer that always works: "Lord, let they will, not my will, be done."
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:I guess this depends on which church you go to.
Trin: I've noticed that no one tells you that prayer doesn't work before hand. Occasionally one of these conversations happens and the old "ah but who is prayer really for?" line comes out, but if that's what we actually believe, it's odd that it isn't taught that way right from Sunday school, or talked about in those terms during the sermon at the 6:30 service.
quote:Good points here. The 'leaders' (God they love that word) in the UK evangelical scene not only believe that prayer works (in the mechanical sense; you can get what you ask for) but believe it to be an actual external force. I watched many, many times at HTB (and elsewhere) as the prayer tzar, a guy called Jeremy, asked the congo to 'aim a beam of prayer' at whomever it was they were praying for. Here in Canterbury I've heard evangelicals use similar language and even tell God 'we give you permission', etc. It is, even for theists, total and complete nonsense—and at least some of them must know it. Yet, it is part of their praxis and there is no way they'll change. I would go further still and say that many practices and habits of evangelicals are demonstrably harmful, but there is no way they'll change. Because they believe that what they do is 'anointed' (they love that word!) it, ipso fact, cannot be harmful, but only good. I should add a more cautious tone; of course I don't mean all evangelicals, I'm really only speaking of my experience with the HTB set and their satellites around the country.
Originally posted by Ikkyu:
The impression I get from a lot Christians about prayer is that "of course it works". And when you give an example of it not working in some particular case they keep changing the definition until they find something that "works".
Or they blame you for wanting something that you should have no right to expect like your child not dying of cancer. Or a parent not suffering from Alzheimer's.
Of course if the person you are praying for gets better the credit its all God's. If the person dies the blame is on your expectations or your lack of faith.
While I sympathize with praying being useful for comfort and as a form of meditation, both uses I find sensible, I don't think that is the mainstream Christian claim.
Claiming that Christianity does not teach that our prayers will be answered, might be true for some liberal theologies but is not the bill of goods being sold by most churches.
quote:I like this idea, but it is an all-too-rare one in Christian culture.
Originally posted by Martin60:
It's got NOTHING to do with God. Except in Their provision. God's will is that we - transitively and intransitively - heal. Their will and their provision are one and the same. Prayer - therapeuo - is part of that. Like charity, it is its own reward, its own answer.
quote:How do you know that it's rare?
Komensky: I like this idea, but it is an all-too-rare one in Christian culture.
quote:Ahem… 'seems rare'.
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:How do you know that it's rare?
Komensky: I like this idea, but it is an all-too-rare one in Christian culture.
quote:I went on a course about stress-reduction techniques recently, and one of the pieces of advice was 'give yourself fifteen minutes every day to worry as much as you can about everything you can think of, then put all of it out of your mind and get on with the rest of your life'.
I've noticed that no one tells you that prayer doesn't work before hand. Occasionally one of these conversations happens and the old "ah but who is prayer really for?" line comes out...
quote:I was just thinking of something which is (maybe tangentially) related to this.
Originally posted by Komensky:
Good points here. The 'leaders' (God they love that word) in the UK evangelical scene not only believe that prayer works (in the mechanical sense; you can get what you ask for) but believe it to be an actual external force. I watched many, many times at HTB (and elsewhere) as the prayer tzar, a guy called Jeremy, asked the congo to 'aim a beam of prayer' at whomever it was they were praying for. Here in Canterbury I've heard evangelicals use similar language and even tell God 'we give you permission', etc. It is, even for theists, total and complete nonsense—and at least some of them must know it. Yet, it is part of their praxis and there is no way they'll change.
quote:Tangentially, to someone with anxiety issues it also sounds like "If you've done six impossible things already this morning, why not round it off with lunch at Milliways, the Restaurant and the End of the Universe?"
Originally posted by Jane R:
Trin:quote:I went on a course about stress-reduction techniques recently, and one of the pieces of advice was 'give yourself fifteen minutes every day to worry as much as you can about everything you can think of, then put all of it out of your mind and get on with the rest of your life'.
I've noticed that no one tells you that prayer doesn't work before hand. Occasionally one of these conversations happens and the old "ah but who is prayer really for?" line comes out...
That sounds remarkably like a secular version of prayer to me.
quote:The concept of "putting these things out of your mind" comes dangerously close to denying or trivialising their existance. This may be OK for some things but, you will only have to confront them 24 hours later. Prayer ought to enable you to park them with God, not to be picked up later.
Originally posted by Jane R:
Trin:quote:I went on a course about stress-reduction techniques recently, and one of the pieces of advice was 'give yourself fifteen minutes every day to worry as much as you can about everything you can think of, then put all of it out of your mind and get on with the rest of your life'.
I've noticed that no one tells you that prayer doesn't work before hand. Occasionally one of these conversations happens and the old "ah but who is prayer really for?" line comes out...
That sounds remarkably like a secular version of prayer to me.
quote:It doesn't involve the *word* "God" but...
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:That's pretty, but surely there are quite a lot of explanations of dissatisfaction. For example, in some areas of Buddhism, there is the idea that the ego has split itself from reality, and then yearns to return 'home'. This does not involve God.
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
quote:Yes: dissatisfaction.
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Can you think of one thing in your life which can only be explained by something non-natural?
I know of only one plausible explanation for it: You have made us for Yourself, and our souls are restless until they rest in You.
Prayer, then, is not intended to supply our wants, but to remind us that there is only one way to be entirely satisfied, and to bring us as close as possible to that satisfaction in this life.
quote:I didn't say it was a *good* course, did I?
Tangentially, to someone with anxiety issues it also sounds like "If you've done six impossible things already this morning, why not round it off with lunch at Milliways, the Restaurant and the End of the Universe?"
quote:Ouch!
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Komensky, I share your anger with this kind of crap, but it is possible to avoid it - even in a place like Canterbury.
My London years with it were much harder. At least we have the cathedral here, which I adore.quote:For some of us, anxiety is a self-perpetuating mechanism. We will spend hours and hours and hours running thru the same cyle of anxious ruminating about things that we have no control over and which may or may not happen. For people like me, the advice to put some boundaries on that anxious "what if-ing" is actually extraordinarily helpful-- to set aside some time for it, and then set it aside til the next day. Suggesting that we put it away permanently is probably not an option, but limiting it to a set period so that it doesn't control and zap your energy the entire day, is.
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:The concept of "putting these things out of your mind" comes dangerously close to denying or trivialising their existance. This may be OK for some things but, you will only have to confront them 24 hours later. Prayer ought to enable you to park them with God, not to be picked up later.
Originally posted by Jane R:
Trin:quote:I went on a course about stress-reduction techniques recently, and one of the pieces of advice was 'give yourself fifteen minutes every day to worry as much as you can about everything you can think of, then put all of it out of your mind and get on with the rest of your life'.
I've noticed that no one tells you that prayer doesn't work before hand. Occasionally one of these conversations happens and the old "ah but who is prayer really for?" line comes out...
That sounds remarkably like a secular version of prayer to me.
note: I agree that "passing Him the burden" doesn't have universal acceptance amongst Christians, but the idea of "forgetting about it" isn't my idea of a mechanism for coping with stress and anxiety either.
quote:note to self: issue a hell-call to Piper. This sort of uber-Calvinist crap is nothing short of spiritual abuse.
Originally posted by Komensky:
If your prayer is still unanswered, you should consider that it was God's plan all along that your five-year old daughter should die a painful death from bone cancer; at least she's with Jesus now—think of how happy she must be!'. This might be followed by a quote from John Piper (they love him!) about how you should 'love your cancer' because it is a gift from God. Your cancer has to be a gift from God because everything that happens is part of his plan. This is the shit you will hear over and over again. .
quote:Not if done properly.
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
School assemblies are an utterly self-defeating and pointless activity.
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
By contrast, my impression from the Ship is that evangelicals almost expect God to make them champions of the universe. (If only!)
![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
quote:Yes. That's why we pray "thy Kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." It's why the early persecuted Christians prayed "Maranatha: come Lord Jesus come". So many many times when I see the news reports of human trafficking and child abuse and genocide, that's all I can do. Maranatha.
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Maybe the only thing really worth praying for, apart from forgiveness, is for Jesus to come back, so we can leave this tear-stained, sin-soaked world behind.
quote:I think forcing a community of teenagers to do something for the possible benefit of a tiny minority is a pointless activity. I suspect that very little reflection is actually going on.
Originally posted by leo:
Not if done properly.
I led collective worship regularly for over 30 years and have written stuff for teachers about it.
Students value a time for reflection every day.
Is reflection pointless?
quote:FWIW, I think the problem is that the habit of protesting about the supposedly undesirable aspects of evangelicalism actually actually fixes those undesirable aspects in our minds. And progressive evangelicalism (if you like) always tends to be compared with the more conservative types, which similarly highlights conservatism.
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
By contrast, my impression from the Ship is that evangelicals almost expect God to make them champions of the universe. (If only!)
I had hoped we'd done a better job than that of demonstrating, at least on the Ship, the diversity of evangelicalism. Apparently not.
quote:Like learning how to play hockey and make scones.
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:I think forcing a community of teenagers to do something for the possible benefit of a tiny minority is a pointless activity.
Originally posted by leo:
Not if done properly.
I led collective worship regularly for over 30 years and have written stuff for teachers about it.
Students value a time for reflection every day.
Is reflection pointless?
quote:Who is the "our" you're referring to? I never envisioned you as part of the evangelical camp, whereas I self-identify as such.
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:FWIW, I think the problem is that the habit of protesting about the supposedly undesirable aspects of evangelicalism actually actually fixes those undesirable aspects in our minds. And progressive evangelicalism (if you like) always tends to be compared with the more conservative types, which similarly highlights conservatism.
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
By contrast, my impression from the Ship is that evangelicals almost expect God to make them champions of the universe. (If only!)
I had hoped we'd done a better job than that of demonstrating, at least on the Ship, the diversity of evangelicalism. Apparently not.
A more subtle diversionary tactic is probably required. Or a change of terminology.
quote:That sounds like a good idea - for all parties concerned - if you are to avoid (further) Hostly attention on this thread.
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
why not just issue a hell call? At least then we'd be free to talk about the personal aspects/implications of what you are saying
quote:Or learning most of the subjects we teach them, for that matter.
Originally posted by Truman White:
quote:Like learning how to play hockey and make scones.
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I think forcing a community of teenagers to do something for the possible benefit of a tiny minority is a pointless activity.
quote:My apologies - I did not see this post before my latest. Would you please, therefore, delete the one I have just put in. Thank you.
Originally posted by Eutychus:
hosting/
quote:That sounds like a good idea - for all parties concerned - if you are to avoid (further) Hostly attention on this thread.
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
why not just issue a hell call? At least then we'd be free to talk about the personal aspects/implications of what you are saying
/hosting
quote:If by hockey Truman White means "Fighting on Ice" then that and scone making are a good start.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:Or learning most of the subjects we teach them, for that matter.
Originally posted by Truman White:
quote:Like learning how to play hockey and make scones.
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I think forcing a community of teenagers to do something for the possible benefit of a tiny minority is a pointless activity.
quote:Yes, we've gotten off the very personal aspect of what you shared into more typically purgatorial theonerd responses.
Originally posted by Jude:
Prayer is not a means whereby we twist God's proverbial arm, although I hsve heard many times in church when the intercessions seem to ask for this. My own interpretation of prayer is that it is a means whereby we learn to align our will with God's. My question in the OP referred to times when what we pray for surely must be God's will too, but He doesn't seem to be listening. On a grand scale, this could be when we pray for an end to war in, for exsmple, Syria. On a small, personal scale, it could be when praying for someone who is ill. BTW, the person I referred to in the OP does not suffer from a terminal illness, but rather a spiritual/mental sickness, which could however be fatal if they continue on their current downhill road.
quote:thank you-- forgiven.
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I want to apologise for upsetting you.
quote:Most progressive evangelicals (whatever that means-- it's a slippery term, of course) would probably do both. I would. As I mentioned earlier, I would pray for healing, without necessarily asking "if it's your will" because I would assume that God's desire for your mother was healing, for the reasons mentioned above. But, as I said, I don't believe that everything that happens in the world at this point is the way God wants it to be, so I wouldn't assume that we would see healing, and would attempt not to appear to be promising that.
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
The prayers of evangelical family members overseas for my dying mother were welcomed. However, the question, to my mind, is whether they should have prayed for her healing, or for something else. But healing is what she asked them to pray for, and perhaps she was wrong in that. A more progressive evangelical approach might have helped her to prepare for death rather than focusing on praying for miracles.
quote:I do agree - and automatically sang it in my head! It is a great pity that CofE has all the good tunes!
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
God be in my head, and in my understanding;
God be in mine eyes, and in my looking;
God be in my mouth, and in my speaking;
God be in my heart, and in my thinking;
God be at mine end, and at my departing...
How's that for a prayer?
I had it for a hymn once, sung by a soloist and then by the congregation. She sang the last line so softly that congregation followed suit. Intensely moving.
GG
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
[/QB][/QUOTE]quote:Not a minority and not forced. They are 'invited' to reflect and periodical evaluation shows that they value this time.
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:I think forcing a community of teenagers to do something for the possible benefit of a tiny minority is a pointless activity. I suspect that very little reflection is actually going on.
Originally posted by leo:
Not if done properly.
I led collective worship regularly for over 30 years and have written stuff for teachers about it.
Students value a time for reflection every day.
Is reflection pointless?
But of course, YMMV.
quote:Quasi-religious assemblies are against the law/guidance - we have to 'take into account' the family backgrounds, aptitudes' etc. of the pupils - these are mainly non religious so assemblies are designed to cater for secular spirituality.
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
the "lessons" learned in quasi-religious assembly have been completely useless.
quote:Surely death is the greatest form of healing.
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
The prayers of evangelical family members overseas for my dying mother were welcomed. However, the question, to my mind, is whether they should have prayed for her healing, or for something else. But healing is what she asked them to pray for
quote:I think you are moving the goal-posts. You said, that there is only one plausible explanation for dissatisfaction, that is, our yearning for God.
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
quote:It doesn't involve the *word* "God" but...
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:That's pretty, but surely there are quite a lot of explanations of dissatisfaction. For example, in some areas of Buddhism, there is the idea that the ego has split itself from reality, and then yearns to return 'home'. This does not involve God.
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
quote:Yes: dissatisfaction.
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Can you think of one thing in your life which can only be explained by something non-natural?
I know of only one plausible explanation for it: You have made us for Yourself, and our souls are restless until they rest in You.
Prayer, then, is not intended to supply our wants, but to remind us that there is only one way to be entirely satisfied, and to bring us as close as possible to that satisfaction in this life.
quote:I suppose so. But for sick people and their families that's not always what they want to hear, is it?
Originally posted by leo:
quote:Surely death is the greatest form of healing.
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
The prayers of evangelical family members overseas for my dying mother were welcomed. However, the question, to my mind, is whether they should have prayed for her healing, or for something else. But healing is what she asked them to pray for
quote:I don't think it's about that. To me, it is more about acknowledging your despair over a problem for a short while. The other 23:45 hours the problem will still be there, and you might still think about it, but the despair might be less.
Sioni Sais: The concept of "putting these things out of your mind" comes dangerously close to denying or trivialising their existance.
quote:I like the parallels that are being drawn here with Buddhism. Also important to note that Buddhist practice also isn't without it's pitfalls. I do sometimes wonder though if Buddhism turns out quite some many dissatisfied, yearning and depressed people as Christian practice unfortunately seems apt to do .
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
......the idea in Buddhism that the separation and alienation caused by the ego also produces dissatisfaction. Interestingly, this is religious but not theistic.
quote:Christianity is full of images of pain and suffering, and pervaded by the themes of renunciation and sacrifice. Walk into any church and there'll probably be multiple images of a tortured man dying a horrible death, and/or martyrs. Pop into Kamakura in Japan, and there's a huge statue of a laughing Buddha, replicated on smaller scales throughout the Far East. When did you last see a picture of Jesus or the saints laughing?
Originally posted by rolyn:
I do sometimes wonder though if Buddhism turns out quite some many dissatisfied, yearning and depressed people as Christian practice unfortunately seems apt to do.
quote:Death is the gateway to resurrection and so is the instrument of healing.
Originally posted by Martin60:
No, resurrection is.
quote:Another point to make is that Buddhism has many strands. You could even say that some Buddhists pray, although it might be more accurate to speak of devotional practice. But I think some regional Buddhist traditions honour local gods and so on.
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:I like the parallels that are being drawn here with Buddhism. Also important to note that Buddhist practice also isn't without it's pitfalls. I do sometimes wonder though if Buddhism turns out quite some many dissatisfied, yearning and depressed people as Christian practice unfortunately seems apt to do .
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
......the idea in Buddhism that the separation and alienation caused by the ego also produces dissatisfaction. Interestingly, this is religious but not theistic.
TMM Le Roc is on it by talking of Christian prayer easing despair, maybe even turning it to joy. But certainly not compounding it otherwise what is the point in prayer?
quote:Not just death:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Hmmm. In Buddhist Bhutan, some say that the country's Gross National Happiness -high- is due in part to the philosophy of thinking of death five times a day.
quote:This probably has a good deal to do with it.
Originally posted by Ariel:
Christianity is full of images of pain and suffering, and pervaded by the themes of renunciation and sacrifice. Walk into any church and there'll probably be multiple images of a tortured man dying a horrible death, and/or martyrs. Pop into Kamakura in Japan, and there's a huge statue of a laughing Buddha, replicated on smaller scales throughout the Far East. When did you last see a picture of Jesus or the saints laughing?
quote:There's some real good stuff in this.
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
At the moment I'm reading a book by John Stott, in which he says that 'the Christian knows that the nearer he approaches God, the more he becomes aware of his sin' and 'the more the saint grows in likeness to Christ, the more he perceives the vastness of the distance which still separates him from his ideal.'
He implies that the yearning and dissatisfaction are routine and not undesirable parts of the developing Christian life. But in contemporary spirituality, the impression one gets is that such feelings drive many people away from the faith. Ex-RCs apparently have to train themselves to sin without feeling guilty about it.
Maybe it's because in our culture feeling guilty for one's choices and behavior is a total no no. Religion, if it has a role, is to make us feel better, not worse! I've heard of commentators who imply that much of American Christianity in particular has more or less become a branch of the self-help movement, in which feeling good, not bad, about yourself if the goal.
quote:After reading your comment I wonder if Stott seems to touch on a dimension called 'plug in'. Prayer is a telephone or call up device?
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
At the moment I'm reading a book by John Stott, in which he says that 'the Christian knows that the nearer he approaches God, the more he becomes aware of his sin' and 'the more the saint grows in likeness to Christ, the more he perceives the vastness of the distance which still separates him from his ideal.'
M
quote:I'm not sure Will Self is a particularly good source for information on Christianity in general or the Anglican church in particular.
Originally posted by Martin60:
mr cheesy, thanks for that poignant eyewitness snapshot of the ABC. My flinty hearted response BEFORE this is reinforced by it. JW is a nice, privileged chap who nicely embodies two nasty things common to Christians which I certainly nastily embodied: he's a de jure and therefore de facto homophobic warmonger.
No wonder he's pained. The cognitive dissonance must be gnawing at his vitals. Prayer isn't the only thing that doesn't work as evangelicals let alone charismatics claim. Or may be it IS working and JW is having a Damascene moment.
quote:No. I'm saying that I think the two ideas are entirely consistent, just use different language.
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:I think you are moving the goal-posts. You said, that there is only one plausible explanation for dissatisfaction, that is, our yearning for God.
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
quote:It doesn't involve the *word* "God" but...
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:That's pretty, but surely there are quite a lot of explanations of dissatisfaction. For example, in some areas of Buddhism, there is the idea that the ego has split itself from reality, and then yearns to return 'home'. This does not involve God.
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
quote:Yes: dissatisfaction.
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Can you think of one thing in your life which can only be explained by something non-natural?
I know of only one plausible explanation for it: You have made us for Yourself, and our souls are restless until they rest in You.
Prayer, then, is not intended to supply our wants, but to remind us that there is only one way to be entirely satisfied, and to bring us as close as possible to that satisfaction in this life.
I dispute that, and cite as an example, the idea in Buddhism that the separation and alienation caused by the ego also produces dissatisfaction. Interestingly, this is religious but not theistic.
So you say, 'but ...', implying that God might be involved. So you are saying that the ego idea is not plausible for someone who already believes in God. Well, OK, that is a bit circular.
quote:Christianity isn't "working" because we're all fallible human beings. However, I don't believe that God needs us to be perfect in order to answer prayers, otherwise none of our prayers would be answered - and some are, unquestionably.
Christianity isn't working yet, no wonder prayer doesn't.
quote:There is no 'answered prayer' which can't be accounted for by co-incidence.
Originally posted by Jude:
- and some are, unquestionably.
.....
quote:Jude, of course Christianity is working on an individual and collective level, it just can't at the highest. Our prayers for that cannot be until our titular leaders; Andrew, Justin and George follow our once and future leader and declare peace. My prayers for enlightenment are obviously being answered, what's being answered for you?
Originally posted by Jude:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:Christianity isn't "working" because we're all fallible human beings. However, I don't believe that God needs us to be perfect in order to answer prayers, otherwise none of our prayers would be answered - and some are, unquestionably.
Christianity isn't working yet, no wonder prayer doesn't.
What I am wondering about is rather, if there is some kind of block to our prayers being answered, and how that can be overcome.
quote:Here you have it. 'some [prayers] are [answered, unquestionably'. Jude, now is your chance to utterly change the world. You could net a million USD through the James Randi Foundation and you would be on most newspapers and your work could answer questions long abandoned by scientific journals. At last! You finally have proof that prayers are answered 'unquestionably'!
Originally posted by Jude:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:Christianity isn't "working" because we're all fallible human beings. However, I don't believe that God needs us to be perfect in order to answer prayers, otherwise none of our prayers would be answered - and some are, unquestionably.
Christianity isn't working yet, no wonder prayer doesn't.
What I am wondering about is rather, if there is some kind of block to our prayers being answered, and how that can be overcome.
quote:We are *all* "people like Jude", whatever that means, aren't we? - made in God's image, broken, trying to be whole, longing. Always longing.
Originally posted by Komensky:
There really are people like Jude, though.
quote:Always telling people that God isn't answering their prayers for some reason. As God is perfect and it cannot be his fault, it's the fault of the petitioner. Probably a blockage or demons! Time to get onto Dyno Rod!
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
quote:We are *all* "people like Jude", whatever that means, aren't we? - made in God's image, broken, trying to be whole, longing. Always longing.
Originally posted by Komensky:
There really are people like Jude, though.
quote:Well, the 'unquestionably' is a safe guess, really, since nobody can disprove that. There are always going to be some coincidences, which amaze and enthrall. Furthermore, prayer probably has effects on the person doing the praying, but then so does meditation and yoga, or in fact, going for a ten mile walk. (It knackers me).
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:Here you have it. 'some [prayers] are [answered, unquestionably'. Jude, now is your chance to utterly change the world. You could net a million USD through the James Randi Foundation and you would be on most newspapers and your work could answer questions long abandoned by scientific journals. At last! You finally have proof that prayers are answered 'unquestionably'!
Originally posted by Jude:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:Christianity isn't "working" because we're all fallible human beings. However, I don't believe that God needs us to be perfect in order to answer prayers, otherwise none of our prayers would be answered - and some are, unquestionably.
Christianity isn't working yet, no wonder prayer doesn't.
What I am wondering about is rather, if there is some kind of block to our prayers being answered, and how that can be overcome.
This is the kind of destructive behaviour I complained about earlier in the thread. And the total bollocks about 'blockages' again. To be honest, I'm glad that Jude has weighed in on this. I think that some of you were beginning to think that I had made it all up! There really are people like Jude, though.
K.
quote:Awk! Logic alert, logic alert...
Originally posted by Komensky:
Absolutely, 'it makes me feel better' is an honest reason to pray, do yoga, meditate, etc., or engage in some kind of spiritual activity. That's different from saying there is a positive external force at work. There simply isn't. To answer the other comment above, it's not for me to disprove, it's for those claiming The Force to do the proving. To date, it hasn't been done. It might happen one day—and I'm certainly open to that possibility, but that's a long way away from claiming there is an external force available to some Christians. Lots of other religions make similar—and similarly unsubstantiated—claims.
The problem is that those who believe they have The Force, cannot be dissuaded. The very act of saying you have The Force is the same, in their ears, as actually having The Force.
'We pray in hope', I heard a (now) Bishop say. That seems fine to me.
K.
quote:The anthropologist Scott Atran has written some interesting stuff on religion (e.g. 'In Gods We Trust'), and one of the things he often says, is that it's important that religion is counter-intuitive.
Originally posted by Komensky:
Absolutely, 'it makes me feel better' is an honest reason to pray, do yoga, meditate, etc., or engage in some kind of spiritual activity. That's different from saying there is a positive external force at work. There simply isn't. To answer the other comment above, it's not for me to disprove, it's for those claiming The Force to do the proving. To date, it hasn't been done. It might happen one day—and I'm certainly open to that possibility, but that's a long way away from claiming there is an external force available to some Christians. Lots of other religions make similar—and similarly unsubstantiated—claims.
The problem is that those who believe they have The Force, cannot be dissuaded. The very act of saying you have The Force is the same, in their ears, as actually having The Force.
'We pray in hope', I heard a (now) Bishop say. That seems fine to me.
K.
quote:It sounds like the sort of church that 'dissenters' would want to leave in any case. Too big and too influential to allow much room for voices that are off-message. Perhaps this is an argument for smaller, weaker churches with a more democratic tradition of lay leadership?
Originally posted by Komensky:
The HTB attitude to prayer was completely clear: prayer is an external force, a power, which the 'faithful' can use for others and for themselves. They fully believed that prayer could be used like The Force to move and change objects in the physical world. We heard the full gamut of miracle stories, including resurrection stories, mind reading, you name it.
Once you create an entire church culture on this kind of BS, it makes it very difficult to back down or alter your beliefs. Moreover, it makes any dissent from the party line practically impossible.
quote:Unless starfish are really really good at prayer.
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
And I don't think the 100% unanswered prayer for the replacement of amputated limbs has been mentioned yet, so I'll just do that very quietly.!
quote:For the same reason children are taught about art and poetry and music.
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
My answers to my own questions go something like this:
Praying to God is of no benefit at all to the children, since it asks them to listen to an adult talking to something that many of them nowadays know or believe does not exist. I do not know the statistics, but not only are far more children nowadays from homes with a wide variety of religious beliefs, but there are possibly as many from homes where the idea of God/god/s simply does not arise.
I suppose it could benefit the Head teacher and Governors, if their funding depended on ( a)still obeying an old law and (b) current sources of funding, but not being a cynical person, I will say no more on that account!
An Assembly, say, once or even twice a week – if managed well, can benefit the smooth running of the school I think, but I have been out of teaching for a long time.
With all the astronomical, scientific, technological, geographical, biological,, etc detailed knowledge available to all, why show children how to do something like saying prayers to a God?
quote:Hmmm. The only 'balance' I can see in our church landscape is that you can leave one type of church to attend another, and hence benefit from a good all-round view (as you yourself have done).
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
[...]
There's a balance in here somewhere.
quote:Not any more. It used to provide me with great comfort, but it glosses over too much, and often affirms a world and God view I cannot but stumble over, e.g.,
Originally posted by Martin60:
Anybody NOT like Taizé?
quote:Much as I agree with a lot of your criticisms of HTB and the American evangelicalism it often imitates, I would have to disagree here. Of course, it all hinges on your definition of small-o "orthodox". Myself, I would define orthodoxy by the ecumenical creeds: Apostle's and Nicene. By that definition, HTB definitely and most American evangelicals are very much orthodox, for all their other faults.
Originally posted by Komensky:
You may have noticed that HTB-type evangelicals now refer to themselves as 'orthodox'. This is part of their strategy to achieve a paradigm shift so that their theology is seen to sit at the centre of Christian life.
K.
quote:]Yes, I agree. I should have added that of course the subject should be taught about as it is an integral part of our history.
Originally posted by Pomona:
quote:For the same reason children are taught about art and poetry and music.
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
With all the astronomical, scientific, technological, geographical, biological,, etc detailed knowledge available to all, why show children how to do something like saying prayers to a God?
quote:But if appreciation of the Arts is such an important part of human life, it must have been a survival strategy.
Beauty is useless - that is part of its beauty. Prayer to me is similar.
quote:Very interesting point. A topic on the value and 'usefulness' of monks and nuns, or not, could be a good one, I think. Their choice of life sthyle could well be considered to be a selfish one.
I know some contemplative Anglican nuns in Oxford - their lives are entirely devoted to prayer and they do not leave the convent except for medical treatment/going to the post office etc, and slightly unexpectedly, Greenbelt (a progressive Christian festival). Their novice guardian has spoken about the uselessness of that kind of life, but that useless doesn't mean without value or beauty.
Look up a book called New Habits - if anyone knows the whys and hows of prayer, it's nuns.
quote:When I was in an accident, in the split second when I could see a car was obviously going to directly hit the driver's door with me in the driver's seat, I prayed. I didn't ask that I would come out of it alive or in one piece. I simply said 'I love and trust you Lord.' I knew the closeness of God in that moment. The car was a write- off, and I came out of it without a scratch.
Originally posted by Ikkyu:
I had an experience last night that made me think about this thread. We had rain here in Arizona and being such a rare event it makes roads slick and rather unsafe due to the many drivers that lack experience driving in the rain.
On my way to the pharmacy I slowed down too fast and lost control of my car. I spun but was able to avoid hitting anything and stopped safely out of harm's way. I felt quite lucky, I stopped short of saying a prayer of thanks since I haven't prayed in many years. And I'm not much of a believer, but it definitely crossed my mind.
And then this morning I open the local papers and find that on that same night an SUV with a young couple in their twenties and their 3 young children was not so lucky. Ill spare you the tragic details.
I wondered what would have been the value of my prayer if I had prayed giving thanks for my luck that very same night. And I wondered if anyone prayed for them before they left on their car trip.
I am sure many are praying for them now. But going back to the title of the thread. Does it work?
quote:Nature, human evolution, and the ever-advancing skills of Medicine have done it all. The difficulty for so many is that, by accepting this, they would have to relinquish all the beliefs which require faith alone. If this is going to happen - and of course I think it will eventually,
Originally posted by Martin60:
Or healing Down's syndrome or ANY other genetic disorder Susan Doris.
So what can God heal? That shows in the statistics? In anyone's experience? Anyone here?
after maybe several hundred years, probably more, it will have to work through and evolve, as it cannot be any sort of instant imposition. quote:The problem here is that, of course, science has proven that faith is a very strong influence on healing - hence the placebo effect and numerous studies which have shown the impact on health of belonging to a faith community.
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Nature, human evolution, and the ever-advancing skills of Medicine have done it all. The difficulty for so many is that, by accepting this, they would have to relinquish all the beliefs which require faith alone. If this is going to happen - and of course I think it will eventually,
In the meantime, it is always a privilege and a pleasure to be a member of this community.
quote:Correction accepted. I would change it to 'there is simply no evidence for it.' It is the same approach I have for aliens, ghosts or Elvis sightings. Lots of people believe in them and with absolutely heaps of anecdotal evidence, but I see no reason to believe them simply because I cannot prove those claims to be untrue. You are shifting the burden of proof. 'Some people believe in an invisible power for which there is no evidence, but it may be true because it cannot be proven to be false'. Hardly the stuff that's going to get people into your tent.
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Awk! Logic alert, logic alert...
Start with "That's different from saying there is a positive external force at work. There simply isn't."
You don't know that, you can't know that, unless you can directly access the experience of basically every human being who ever existed. "There simply isn't" is a faith position, not a fact.
quote:Only someone who knows absolutely nothing about monastics could consider their 'choice of lifestyle' (none of them would consider it to be a choice, but a vocation and something they had to do) to be a selfish one. I mean if nothing else, not all monks and nuns are enclosed and many do work in the world. However both are equally important, after all enclosed monastics are responsible in the West for enormous contributions towards literature, printing, medicine etc. But of course you know that this wasn't the point I was making - the point I was making was that if you were genuinely interested in the workings of prayer, monastics are great resources for this.
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
quote:]Yes, I agree. I should have added that of course the subject should be taught about as it is an integral part of our history.
Originally posted by Pomona:
quote:For the same reason children are taught about art and poetry and music.
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
With all the astronomical, scientific, technological, geographical, biological,, etc detailed knowledge available to all, why show children how to do something like saying prayers to a God?quote:But if appreciation of the Arts is such an important part of human life, it must have been a survival strategy.
Beauty is useless - that is part of its beauty. Prayer to me is similar.quote:Very interesting point. A topic on the value and 'usefulness' of monks and nuns, or not, could be a good one, I think. Their choice of life sthyle could well be considered to be a selfish one.
I know some contemplative Anglican nuns in Oxford - their lives are entirely devoted to prayer and they do not leave the convent except for medical treatment/going to the post office etc, and slightly unexpectedly, Greenbelt (a progressive Christian festival). Their novice guardian has spoken about the uselessness of that kind of life, but that useless doesn't mean without value or beauty.
Look up a book called New Habits - if anyone knows the whys and hows of prayer, it's nuns.
quote:Why would it imply a 'puppet God'? Surely most people taking part would genuinely desire a new leg for a little girl who had it blown off by a mine, no?
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
They wouldn't be attempted a) because it's based on a false idea of what prayer is and b) because it would imply a puppet god.
quote:Sounds like putting God to the test (Luke 4:12). Why would God oblige?
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:Why would it imply a 'puppet God'? Surely most people taking part would genuinely desire a new leg for a little girl who had it blown off by a mine, no?
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
They wouldn't be attempted a) because it's based on a false idea of what prayer is and b) because it would imply a puppet god.
K.
quote:A few examples: heaven, hell too of course, after-life, God, resurrection, the idea that the ‘soul’ or ‘spirit’ of a person who lived 2,000 years ago is still alive in a somewhere which is never defined…..
Originally posted by Anglicano:
quote:Please could you give us some examples of such beliefs and why we would need to relinquish them all?
SD: The difficulty for so many is that, by accepting this, they would have to relinquish all the beliefs which require faith alone.
quote:But it isn’t any actual gods behind the faiths and communities that help, is it? It’s the very human faith belief of those who think their god exists.
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
The problem here is that, of course, science has proven that faith is a very strong influence on healing - hence the placebo effect and numerous studies which have shown the impact on health of belonging to a faith community.
quote:Yes, I agree. I don’t think it is weird as such, but there are still many functions of the human brain that will be better understood sooner or later.
Expectation has a big part to play. Of course, that's not the same as believing prayer A leads to healing B. But still - being a part of a community that believes miraculous things can happen may indeed have an impact on the rates of effective medical treatment. As weird as it sounds.
quote:Well obviously they would think it to be a vocation and not a selfish choice!
Originally posted by Pomona:
Only someone who knows absolutely nothing about monastics could consider their 'choice of lifestyle' (none of them would consider it to be a choice, but a vocation and something they had to do) to be a selfish one.
quote:And those like the prayer of St Ignatius are gems that remain in memory. (Thought I’d double-check it but google keeps coming up with a most annoying panel my software really doesn’t like!)
I mean if nothing else, not all monks and nuns are enclosed and many do work in the world. However both are equally important, after all enclosed monastics are responsible in the West for enormous contributions towards literature, printing, medicine etc. But of course you know that this wasn't the point I was making - the point I was making was that if you were genuinely interested in the workings of prayer, monastics are great resources for this.
quote:Agreed, but such things exist. Prayer exists too, but the God/god/s behind prayers…?
Children are taught to create art/music/poetry as well as learn about it.
quote:I am not an evolutionary biologist, and I don’t think such aesthetic traits were evident before the human species, but they have not only persisted, but show no sign at all of dying out, so it would seem logical that they strengthen our survival success.
How do you know that the arts had to be a survival tactic?
quote:I am not uncomfortable with faith beliefs – that’s the way people are, but it is the people who do all things anyway, whether they believe a God has anything to do with it or not.
Is that not just because you're uncomfortable with something useless having value?
quote:Well, no, that stark picture does not allow for any ‘grey’ areas, which are also an integral part of human nature. Would you agree, though, that so many things which used to be ascribed to God are now scientifically explained that it is not unreasonable to think that most of the rest will be too. Those that remain will be the don’t knows. Subjects such as love may not have detailed, complete and specific scientific explanations, but they all need a living brain with its emotions, and which is gradually being more scientifically defined. This, I would say, will increase their value, not diminish it.
Reducing everything to what can be quantified and measured strikes me as knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing. Unless you want society to never produce artists or poets or musicians again, and to only produce engineers, 'all the astronomical, scientific, technological, geographical, biological,, etc detailed knowledge available to all' is not the only thing children need teaching.
quote:That's a wonderful example of circular reasoning:
Originally posted by SusanDoris
I am not an evolutionary biologist, and I don’t think such aesthetic traits were evident before the human species, but they have not only persisted, but show no sign at all of dying out, so it would seem logical that they strengthen our survival success.
quote:It sounds like a group of people trying to help someone. If prayer is a power that can produce results then it must be demonstrable, even if only occasionally. Imagine that there is a God that says 'Aha! Those earthlings are trying to test me, rather than just heal that little girl (whom I'm not sure I would have healed either way), I'll teach them. Ignore!'
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:Sounds like putting God to the test (Luke 4:12). Why would God oblige?
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:Why would it imply a 'puppet God'? Surely most people taking part would genuinely desire a new leg for a little girl who had it blown off by a mine, no?
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
They wouldn't be attempted a) because it's based on a false idea of what prayer is and b) because it would imply a puppet god.
K.
Praying for the sick is part of our faith, but Christians are already aware that God doesn't always give us what we want. We don't need scientific experiments to prove that!
quote:This topic might require a new thread. I recall a recent interview with Steven Pinker who argued that there is no evidence that things like composing music had any evolutionary 'purpose'. He found that unusual, given all of our other behaviours.
Originally posted by Niminypiminy:
quote:That's a wonderful example of circular reasoning:
Originally posted by SusanDoris
I am not an evolutionary biologist, and I don’t think such aesthetic traits were evident before the human species, but they have not only persisted, but show no sign at all of dying out, so it would seem logical that they strengthen our survival success.
a) any trait that has persisted in human beings must have strengthened survival success
b)the arts have persisted
c) therefore they must have strengthened our survival success.
quote:It's surely demonstrable to the people whom it helps in a demonstrable way. And for those whom it doesn't help in this way, what purpose would this test serve? If God doesn't cure that sick little girl, what then? Should her family become atheists in one fell swoop, or is there another lesson that God might be teaching them? And how would the experiment judge that?
Originally posted by Komensky:
It sounds like a group of people trying to help someone. If prayer is a power that can produce results then it must be demonstrable, even if only occasionally.
quote:If you or others don't like what your churches are teaching about prayer, you can simply leave. Join the mainstream churches like the Methodists or the URC and find your consolation there. I really can't understand why this should be so difficult for you!
Let go of the idea that prayer is like The Force and much more consoling answers can be discovered.
quote:Oh, BTW, I read this message the other day but didn't understand it. Could you say what you mean by 'plug in', and how it refers to the quotation from Stott?
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:After reading your comment I wonder if Stott seems to touch on a dimension called 'plug in'. Prayer is a telephone or call up device?
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
At the moment I'm reading a book by John Stott, in which he says that 'the Christian knows that the nearer he approaches God, the more he becomes aware of his sin' and 'the more the saint grows in likeness to Christ, the more he perceives the vastness of the distance which still separates him from his ideal.'
M
but I'll defend this one as being fairly reasonable, unless someone can come up with a better one!quote:Googgling a question about music this link comes up. I've only read the beginning so far.
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:This topic might require a new thread. I recall a recent interview with Steven Pinker who argued that there is no evidence that things like composing music had any evolutionary 'purpose'. He found that unusual, given all of our other behaviours.
Niminypiminy: a) any trait that has persisted in human beings must have strengthened survival success
b)the arts have persisted
c) therefore they must have strengthened our survival success.
K.
quote:Hmmmm, I can think of one at least, but I'll need to think a bit before answering.
Originally posted by Pomona:
SusanDoris - you try and live with 20 women, of varying ages, and promise to be faithful to the community for life. Also, you cannot own any possessions or money of your own (which often extends to clothing), and cannot have romantic relationships. Why would someone do that for selfish reasons?
quote:It is not in itself a problem, but becomes one when the people concerned want special privileges, deference because they hold their beliefs in God/god/s, etc, or try to insist that others should believe what they do; i.e. when they assume what is true for them must perforce be true for all.
To your other responses (which don't really answer my questions but oh well) - why does it matter if the deities children pray to don't exist? Why does it matter if the deities anyone prays to don't exist? If people pray and feel it works, why is that not good enough? If someone wants to ascribe something like music or physical beauty to God/gods, why is that a problem?
quote:Nothing at all of course, but when any mystery is taught to children as truth without reference to independent, objective (and all those adjectives that come to mind in this context) then that perpetuates a problem that should not be perpetuated.
What's wrong with a bit of mystery?
quote:At my age I don't bother to leave that required room for the possibility that a God might turn up one day, although I acknowledge that this is the strictly correct way of thinking about it, so to my own satisfaction, yes, I know!
Originally posted by Anglicano:
quote:I agree entirely with what you say. I'm not sure if Susan Doris "knows" that God doesn't exist.
why does it matter if the deities children pray to don't exist? Why does it matter if the deities anyone prays to don't exist? If people pray and feel it works, why is that not good enough? If someone wants to ascribe something like music or physical beauty to God/gods, why is that a problem?
What's wrong with a bit of mystery?
quote:Yes, I fully understand that and as a choir singer I was sad to leave the choral part of it. I'm a person who learns words easily and enjoyed the routine and repetition in services, but there came a point when I could no longer say the words without thinkin, Oh, for goodness' sake, this makes absolutely no sense at all.
][/q I don't. I think/hope He does. But if my "imaginary friend" as the new atheists call Him, doesn't exist, well, I've still got a lot of solace from church, from the eucharist and from the love and companionship I get at church.
quote:As I recall, I have never said that I wish to deny it to anyone. Yes, I think the world would be a better place if religious beliefs gradually phased themselves out, but It would be silly to suppose that this is going to happen any time soon.
Presumably Susan Doris doesn't want or even like this, but why does she want to deny it to us?
quote:That is not what I said or implied. For a start, atheism cannot be 'taught'; the definition of the word is simple: lack of belief in any god.Children should be taught as much as possible about everything. The history of religious belief is an integral part of human history and they should learn as much about it and its many ideas as possible.
Originally posted by Anglicano:
So, you'd rather they were taught "humanism" or atheism? And who would teach it? A duly vetted sociology graduate from a new-wave university?
quote:That's one way of defining atheism. Alternatively, we can define it as believing there is not a god.
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
quote:That is not what I said or implied. For a start, atheism cannot be 'taught'; the definition of the word is simple: lack of belief in any god.Children should be taught as much as possible about everything. The history of religious belief is an integral part of human history and they should learn as much about it and its many ideas as possible.
Originally posted by Anglicano:
So, you'd rather they were taught "humanism" or atheism? And who would teach it? A duly vetted sociology graduate from a new-wave university?
quote:Practically impossible. How is the state school system supposed to teach children about all the varieties of religious experience and practice without unduly giving support to one over all the others.
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
If children should be taught as much as possible about everything, they should certainly be taught how to pray. They should be given every opportunity to find God for themselves. This might mean that they are not taught that God will be at their beck and call to fulfil their every desire.
quote:To whom? To which of the thousands of gods? Maybe they draw straws at the start of each term?
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
If children should be taught as much as possible about everything, they should certainly be taught how to pray.<snip>
quote:Well, good Religious Education departments managed in England until the Tories marginalised the subject.
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Practically impossible. How is the state school system supposed to teach children about all the varieties of religious experience and practice without unduly giving support to one over all the others.
quote:Exactly! they should at least be able to track down, verify, sbstantiate, find a fact about, the chosen god to which they are being taught to pray. Teaching the definition of the word 'pray' is necessary of course.
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:To whom? To which of the thousands of gods? Maybe they draw straws at the start of each term?
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
If children should be taught as much as possible about everything, they should certainly be taught how to pray.<snip>
K.
quote:No they didn't - utter rubbish. Every school that has a Religious Education department has only been able to focus on a small number of world religions. Obviously.
Originally posted by leo:
Well, good Religious Education departments managed in England until the Tories marginalised the subject.
quote:As there is only one living God, they will either find him or not if they pray.
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:To whom? To which of the thousands of gods? Maybe they draw straws at the start of each term?
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
If children should be taught as much as possible about everything, they should certainly be taught how to pray.<snip>
K.
that's for YOU.
quote:It makes me sad too, Jude. The natural response is to bring our sadness to God in prayer, and to ask God to give the person the strength to get through this.
Originally posted by Jude:
The case in point in the OP is not one of terminal illness or somebody asking for a miraculous healing or replacement limb etc. It was much more positive, originally. The person concerned was going through a difficult time and I prayed that God would give them strength to get through it. They seemed to be doing well and I actually believed they were going to be all right.
Go forward a couple of weeks and they have gone from feeling quite positive to despair. Although I have continued in my prayers, this person has now taken a major backward step and I really don't know if they will be able to get out of it, or even if I'll see them again. It makes me very sad.
quote:I think we've been around this barn a few 100 times already...
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
quote:Exactly! they should at least be able to track down, verify, sbstantiate, find a fact about, the chosen god to which they are being taught to pray. Teaching the definition of the word 'pray' is necessary of course.
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:To whom? To which of the thousands of gods? Maybe they draw straws at the start of each term?
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
If children should be taught as much as possible about everything, they should certainly be taught how to pray.<snip>
K.
quote:Yes. I imagine your friend is better served by your "ministry of presence" than s/he would be by a bunch of meaningless pat answers. May God bless you both.
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I have no pat answers nor any placebos, you're doing the right thing in standing by this person in their time of need. That counts for a lot.
for this young man.quote:Not never, but certainly not always-- far from it. Not enough.
Originally posted by Martin60:
Until he is healed. And such NEVER happens this side of death. And ALWAYS does after. Until then, we must ALL suffer, from God on down.
quote:Yes, of course. Just trying to inject a little levity to lighten up an otherwise heavy topic.
Originally posted by Jude:
Thanks for your replies, much appreciated.
Just one thing - Fausto - that may be so if God's blessings came from outer space. However, I believe that He is right here with us and His blessings come from very close. Heaven is just a breath away.
quote:Andu what do you say to the Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, New-Agers, Spiritualists, followers of folks religions, followers of Thor or Zeus, who claim, just as you do, that their god answers their prayers and hears them? Or how about the millions of followers of Sathya Sai Baba? In the latter case we even have hundreds or possibly thousands of eye witness accounts of his miracles—including raising the dead.
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
quote:As there is only one living God, they will either find him or not if they pray.
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:To whom? To which of the thousands of gods? Maybe they draw straws at the start of each term?
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
If children should be taught as much as possible about everything, they should certainly be taught how to pray.<snip>
K.
quote:and
Originally posted by Komensky:
Does God intervene directly in our lives and temporarily suspend the laws of nature in our favour when we ask him to do so? This is the question at the heart of the matter. If the answer is 'no', the consequences are not necessarily that 1) there is no God or 2) prayer is useless. I find serious moral problems that result as a consequence of answering 'yes' to the question at the start of this paragraph.
I can imagine that some would answer the question with 'sometimes', but still leaves a rather ugly problem with theodicy. That answer can also take us back to the problem of 'abuse', where the unsuccessful petitioners are left to soak in blame.
K.
quote:If the purpose of prayer is not to ask God to intervene and to suspend the laws of nature, but to draw close to God, the Creator of the universe, as that is a good thing to do for our spiritual welfare and for the moral good of society as a whole, then none of the claims above about miracles apply.
And what do you say to the Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, New-Agers, Spiritualists, followers of folks religions, followers of Thor or Zeus, who claim, just as you do, that their god answers their prayers and hears them? Or how about the millions of followers of Sathya Sai Baba? In the latter case we even have hundreds or possibly thousands of eye witness accounts of his miracles—including raising the dead.
quote:Ah the old "world is the way I say it is, therefore everyone should do what I say" mantra. Every person of goodwill should resist this kind of nonsense.
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
If the purpose of prayer is not to ask God to intervene and to suspend the laws of nature, but to draw close to God, the Creator of the universe, as that is a good thing to do for our spiritual welfare and for the moral good of society as a whole, then none of the claims above about miracles apply.
It remains a good thing to teach children how to pray.
quote:Your source for tis information?
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:No they didn't - utter rubbish. Every school that has a Religious Education department has only been able to focus on a small number of world religions. Obviously.
Originally posted by leo:
Well, good Religious Education departments managed in England until the Tories marginalised the subject.
quote:The world contains more than 8 distinct religions. There are obviously more than 8 forms of very different and contradictory Christianity in the City of Birmingham.
Originally posted by leo:
Your source for tis information?
I have taught RE for nearly 40 years, been on a Standing Advisory Council on RE for 37 years and on National Standing Advisory Council on RE since its inception circa 1990 - so I can claim to know what was and is going on.
Before that, Birmingham SACRE introduced 8 religions/life stances - all of equal importance, in 1974.
quote:Rather, this is the truth as I see it, it is OK for me to express my opinion too.
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:Ah the old "world is the way I say it is, therefore everyone should do what I say" mantra. Every person of goodwill should resist this kind of nonsense.
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
If the purpose of prayer is not to ask God to intervene and to suspend the laws of nature, but to draw close to God, the Creator of the universe, as that is a good thing to do for our spiritual welfare and for the moral good of society as a whole, then none of the claims above about miracles apply.
It remains a good thing to teach children how to pray.
quote:In the same way as teachers have always been asked to set aside their own beliefs, and teach impartially. Teachers with faith in God are asked to do it all of the time.
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
How are atheist teachers exactly going to be expected to do this?
It may be a good thing to teach. I don't think it's the schools' job.
quote:My statements were in reply to teaching about religions (not merely 'prayer') - the post suggested that all RE privileges one religoin more than the others.
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:The world contains more than 8 distinct religions. There are obviously more than 8 forms of very different and contradictory Christianity in the City of Birmingham.
Originally posted by leo:
Your source for tis information?
I have taught RE for nearly 40 years, been on a Standing Advisory Council on RE for 37 years and on National Standing Advisory Council on RE since its inception circa 1990 - so I can claim to know what was and is going on.
Before that, Birmingham SACRE introduced 8 religions/life stances - all of equal importance, in 1974.
Therefore you cannot possibly be covering the prayer practices of different Christian denominations in Birmingham, never mind all of the other religions in the UK.
QED.
quote:Yes - and very good he is too.
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Leo
I am interested to hear you mention SACRE. Is (or was) there a Humanist representative on the panel?
quote:Thank you for reply. Salutations to him from a fellow humanist!!
Originally posted by leo:
quote:Yes - and very good he is too.
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Leo
I am interested to hear you mention SACRE. Is (or was) there a Humanist representative on the panel?
quote:Leo, when I googled it I got this from a Humanist site. What's going on? Is my quote out of date?
Originally posted by leo:
quote:Yes - and very good he is too.
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Leo
I am interested to hear you mention SACRE. Is (or was) there a Humanist representative on the panel?
quote:GG
The controversial Birmingham syllabus for RE is unusual in explicitly ruling out learning about non-religious beliefs like Humanism and is marketed under the name ‘Faith Makes a Difference’, a title that implicitly denigrates those who are not religious.
quote:Just done a quick clear out
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Leo
Thank you for your interesting pm - it seems, though, that your pm box is full!!
quote:Each diocese has its own SACRE and sets the syllabus for that area. So, for example, the Newcastle Diocese includes the northern saints in its syllabus (Aidan, Bede, etc), whereas Chelmsford looks to be following the suggested national curriculum with very little local flavour and London is charging for its version, so I can't get beyond the prices.
It is required by law that Religious Education (RE) be taught in schools, but RE is not part of the National Curriculum, instead RE is a local responsibility. SACRE oversees RE and collective worship in Community Schools.
quote:Thanks for this, Martin. I need to be reminded of it every day.
Originally posted by Martin60:
YOU are the answer to your prayer. For now. A dim, brief flicker in the dark. Before the dawn of the Son's endless day.
quote:That's very nice. I had the experience during a Zen retreat, that the question we were working on, (who am I? I think), was me, and I was the answer. The endless day also. Why wait for it?
Originally posted by Martin60:
Jude.
I'll tell him that people neither he nor I know are lighting candles for him.
It will comfort him as he is lost to us.
But not to God.
Thank you.
YOU are the answer to your prayer. For now. A dim, brief flicker in the dark. Before the dawn of the Son's endless day.
quote:Schoolteachers can teach children what prayer might mean for believers, and what different religions teach about it, but in today's pluralistic society can they really be expected to teach children how to pray??
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
quote:In the same way as teachers have always been asked to set aside their own beliefs, and teach impartially. Teachers with faith in God are asked to do it all of the time.
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
How are atheist teachers exactly going to be expected to do this?
It may be a good thing to teach. I don't think it's the schools' job.
It's surely as much the school's job to teach healthy spiritual practices as it is to teach healthy physical and mental practices.
quote:Heck, even teaching an explicitly Christian course at an explicitly evangelical college, that's all I'm doing. It's all "this is what most evangelicals believe/do re...." with a very explicit "ymmv".
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Schoolteachers can teach children what prayer might mean for believers, and what different religions teach about it, but in today's pluralistic society can they really be expected to teach children how to pray??
I don't know if I'd want my children (if I had any) being taught some school's idea of what constitutes 'healthy spiritual practices'. How would I as a Christian/Muslim/atheist parent know exactly what that entailed? And what if I didn't approve of the school's spiritual 'help'?
quote:As an American I'm partially arguing devil's advocate here since the loud Christians we have are definitely not people I'd trust my daughter's religious education to. Still: Why is it different to have someone teaching your child about nutrition or how to choose books and about spiritual practices. There are things my daughter gets about nutrition that I think are not completely right.* And I certainly haven't agreed with some of her teachers' advice about how to choose a book. So what. I responded with how I disagreed and let her decide what to think herself. Surely the same is true of religion?
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I don't know if I'd want my children (if I had any) being taught some school's idea of what constitutes 'healthy spiritual practices'. How would I as a Christian/Muslim/atheist parent know exactly what that entailed? And what if I didn't approve of the school's spiritual 'help'?
quote:I don't know if you have heard of
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Schoolteachers can teach children what prayer might mean for believers, and what different religions teach about it, but in today's pluralistic society can they really be expected to teach children how to pray??
I don't know if I'd want my children (if I had any) being taught some school's idea of what constitutes 'healthy spiritual practices'. How would I as a Christian/Muslim/atheist parent know exactly what that entailed? And what if I didn't approve of the school's spiritual 'help'?
quote:Because food, nutrition, etc are all real and clear evidence (scientific and practical) can be accessed in order to make a sensible choice. As far as spiritual growth is concerned, that term needs a far clearer definition, as all non-believers, all people whatever their beliefs, have spiritual/aesthetic aspects to their lives.
Originally posted by Gwai:
As an American I'm partially arguing devil's advocate here since the loud Christians we have are definitely not people I'd trust my daughter's religious education to. Still: Why is it different to have someone teaching your child about nutrition or how to choose books and about spiritual practices.
quote:No - because although there are mountains of evidence about the beliefs and practices of religions, there is zero (i.e. as near to zero as makes no difference) evidence of any actual god.
There are things my daughter gets about nutrition that I think are not completely right.* And I certainly haven't agreed with some of her teachers' advice about how to choose a book. So what. I responded with how I disagreed and let her decide what to think herself. Surely the same is true of religion?
quote:Agreed; frustratingly for the atheists and humanists of this world, the situation will change only very slowly, but if that makes for greater peace and security, then it is the best way.
(If my daughter were getting religious ideas at school that I found scary and fundie, I'd reteach the topic in a more open-minded think-for-yourself way.)
*I suspect that's her simplifying or misunderstanding rather than her teacher being wrong, but the outcome is the same.
