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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Religious monastic orders
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Religious orders: their purposes funding and
achievements.
In the topic about theologians *, the subject of monks and nuns occurred briefly. I thought it might be interesting to see what opinions there are here about religious orders, their value, benefits and/or drawbacks to society, how they are funded and their prospects for the future. I am thinking specifically of Christian orders, where those people who freely choose this way of life enrol nowadays, and who choose to set themselves apart** in order to serve God.
As an atheist I think such orders are a very long way past their sell-by date and are slowly but surely becoming an anachronism, but no doubt they will continue for a long time to come. I have googled ‘public funding for religious orders’ and a quick look shows that, for instance, one Dominican group are going to do a sponsored walk to raise £1 million to cover costs of training etc etc. Whether there is any government money allocated to any of these orders, or which ones may have charitable status, I do not know.
I can sort of understand their belief that the prayers they offer up, following a set format have a good effect, but think they are wrong. Well over ten years ago scientists, using Newton’s and later physicists’ knowledge, planned for a journey for a space module carrying a probe to travel for ten years, arrive at a comet and land the probe on said comet. This has happened just as planned. Do members of religious orders think that the God they believe in had any part in such an endeavour, or that their prayers are more useful than such an achievement?
I look forward to learning more about present-day orders and their justification for their place in society.
*i.e. the factthat they know nothing
** this phrase from a google linkabout God!!
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
They still exist in society because people want to belong to them.
If people want to devote their lives to prayer and study, where's the harm?
I agree! However, do you think there is any degree of selfishness involved?
I have an idea or two on this, but will wait for a while before posting.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
Christian religious orders have huge spiritual value to the communities in which they serve. Prayer is important, so too are the services they offer in terms of giving their time to people.
It isn't about people choosing to set themselves apart, it's about people choosing to accept God's calling for them to do so, which is not the same thing at all. Everyone is not called into a monastic order. It is one of the important functions of religious organisations to help each one of us to ascertain God's calling for us. Of course, if you think that there is no God, you may not understand the concept of calling.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
The thing with selfishness is, as I believe as been done before here, you can define your terms in such a way that all acts are "selfish" otherwise you wouldn't choose to do them. It's an intellectual/debating trick that always wins the argument (if you're arguing that everyone is inherently selfish) but is a bit sneaky and rather craps on any opportunity for altruism or self-less action.
You may guess that I think it's a dubious standpoint ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Regarding religious orders, I think you need to define what you consider to have value or demonstrate a net 'good' before one can comment on their efficacy or worth. Obviously from an atheistic position the prayer and ritual worship won't have any intrinsic value, but that's not the sole focus of religious orders in my limited knowledge. Those that also look outwards and have a strong emphasis on charitable works or social action could potentially be seen as contributing a 'good' independent of any spiritual aspects.
Of course, if one casts one's net wide enough, there's a question about whether any collective activty's positives outweigh perceived negatives or irrelevance, from reading groups to sports teams to knitting groups to religious groups to ... pretty much anything.
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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Whether there is any government money allocated to any of these orders, or which ones may have charitable status, I do not know.
I am surprised that you think that even the formal religious orders (i.e. the Catholic and Anglican orders) would have, or ever have had, any kind of government funding.
(But perhaps you have the Catholic teaching orders in mind. In England, the independent Catholic schools, many of which were founded by religious orders, are not state-run. However, Catholic schools in Northern Ireland ARE state-run.)
quote:
Do members of religious orders think that the God they believe in had any part in such an endeavour, or that their prayers are more useful than such an achievement?
Since you regard ALL prayers as useless and a waste of time, I don't see why you're singling out the prayers of nuns and monks in particular. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
quote:
I look forward to learning more about present-day orders and their justification for their place in society.
I'm not Catholic myself, or high Anglican, but I think that religious communities in the traditions of Benedict, or Francis, or whoever, or run by whoever (there are also Christian communities run by folk who aren't nuns or monks) have a great deal to offer about the value of simplicity, sustainability and simple living. In a world of consumerism gone mad, in a world where climate change is a huge threat, there is great value in modelling such a lifestyle. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Lots of people are drawn to go on retreat, and the Christian retreat houses also attract some non-Christians. So these communities clearly offer something very attractive. There is a great hunger in people for peace and quiet, and these communities, with their lovely traditions of hospitality, offer it.
As it happens, I had lunch at Buckfast Abbey in Devon last week. Benedictine community. Gorgeous place. With a lovely and unusual gift shop.
http://www.buckfast.org.uk/
Where I bought this: http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/en/cat/4794709
Gregorian plainchant accompanied by ancient Yemenite Jewish chants, OH YEAH BABY.
Despite falling vocations in Europe, I am quite sure that the monastic thing WILL continue, and perhaps develop and inspire other initiatives. Quite a lot of evangelicals are beginning to wake up to the contemplative tradition.
Besides: Christianity ain't dead yet, Susan.
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
I was brought up to believe (from the particular types of evangelical churches I attended) that monks and nuns were not following God, that they were not helping the world, that they were hiding themselves away, being self-absorbed, not doing what God commands in the Bible.
So when I felt drawn to monastic life, as I did from an early age, I immediately suppressed that urge as wrong and selfish. I'm in my 40s now, and only in the past few years have I allowed myself to think more openly about it, with the encouragement of a good friend who knows quite a bit about monastic life. And I have constantly struggled with these attitudes that I grew up with - plus, it's something that appeals to me, so surely that in itself makes it selfish?
From having visited quite a few convents, and prayed a lot about it, I see it rather differently now. The vital importance of a constant praying presence, a place of rest for people to visit and be refreshed. And besides, if God calls us to something, is it really so odd that he should make it something that appeals to us? Although there are plenty of nuns who say they resisted the calling at first, hating the idea of it.
And even though it appeals to me in general, seeming to fit the person God has created me to be, I know it will still be incredibly hard. Obedience is the hardest thing - you no longer have the freedom to do what you want when you want to (very few people have quite that freedom anyway, but as a nun, you've signed up for obedience for the rest of your life). You choose to do that, of course, but it's a big decision. The days are long, and even in an enclosed order, you are working throughout the day, as well as praying.
Sadly, there seems such little awareness of monastic life in general, which has contributed to why it's taken me so long to be able to puruse this seriously. Plenty of non-religious people think it's rather a humorous thing, to be made fun of, and a lot of Christians have this attitude that it's an outdated, selfish thing.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I'm sure that God was watching over every picometer of New Horizons' journey to Pluto, slightly bemused.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
Another attitude that some people have is that I'm throwing away my life - that I could do so much good (especially as I've always done caring-type jobs, supporting people with disabilities), and I'm depriving the world of the good I could do. And realistically, if a person doesn't believe in God, then prayer will seem pointless, and so the lifestyle won't make any sense to them. I understand that, but as I believe in God and I believe prayer is vital, I am of course coming from a completely different set of beliefs, and so will reach different conclusions.
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I'm sure that God was watching over every picometer of New Horizons' journey to Pluto, slightly bemused.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) I doubt it was any kind of surprise to Him.
Well said, Snags and Fineline.
quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
I was brought up to believe (from the particular types of evangelical churches I attended) that monks and nuns were not following God, that they were not helping the world, that they were hiding themselves away, being self-absorbed, not doing what God commands in the Bible.
I remember that kind of prejudice from more fundie days. Awful. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
I'm still strongly evangelical myself, but I discarded those prejudices many moons ago, I'm very glad to say. Especially when it became clear to me that the evangelical tradition is not some kind of magical protection against the human temptation to selfishness!
All the best to you in your new-found vocation, btw.
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
All the best to you in your new-found vocation, btw.
Thanks, Laurelin. I'm still in the stages of discernment, so don't know for definite if this is my vocation, but so far it seems to be leading this way.
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Many thanks for the replies so far. I will have another read this evening, and then post.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Well over ten years ago scientists, using Newton’s and later physicists’ knowledge, planned for a journey for a space module carrying a probe to travel for ten years, arrive at a comet and land the probe on said comet. This has happened just as planned. Do members of religious orders think that the God they believe in had any part in such an endeavour, or that their prayers are more useful than such an achievement?
Bunch of glory boys playing model rockets if you ask me. Wouldn't it have been more useful for all of that brain power to be put to work on a cure for Parkinson's?
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Do members of religious orders think that the God they believe in had any part in such an endeavour, or that their prayers are more useful than such an achievement?
To answer this seriously, in my experience, members of religious orders don't tend to see life as a competition as to who is most useful. It's more about following where you believe God is calling you, which may be something very humble.
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
Bunch of glory boys playing model rockets if you ask me. Wouldn't it have been more useful for all of that brain power to be put to work on a cure for Parkinson's?
The exploration of space is an incredible springboard for creativity. It engineers enormous technological innovation which enhances daily life - from advances in aviation to medical devices that help save lives.
It's a really important motivation for young people to become interested in science, maths, physics and technology.
Everyone on Earth benefits from space exploration.
Who benefits from the prayers of monks and nuns? If it's the monks and nuns themselves then I say good luck to them, let them do what makes them happy. But I would hesitate to say they were being altruistic in any way, any more than other people who decide to live together in close knit communities.
I do know that I couldn't do it - it's hard enough living with two other people!
[ 12. November 2015, 16:34: Message edited by: Boogie ]
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Garden. Room. Walk
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
Yeah, that was really more of a comment about how silly it is to call someone out for not doing what you subjectively rank as "useful" work.
[ 12. November 2015, 16:58: Message edited by: Og, King of Bashan ]
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
I was brought up to believe (from the particular types of evangelical churches I attended) that monks and nuns were not following God, that they were not helping the world, that they were hiding themselves away, being self-absorbed, not doing what God commands in the Bible.
So when I felt drawn to monastic life, as I did from an early age, I immediately suppressed that urge as wrong and selfish. I'm in my 40s now, and only in the past few years have I allowed myself to think more openly about it, with the encouragement of a good friend who knows quite a bit about monastic life. And I have constantly struggled with these attitudes that I grew up with - plus, it's something that appeals to me, so surely that in itself makes it selfish?
From having visited quite a few convents, and prayed a lot about it, I see it rather differently now. The vital importance of a constant praying presence, a place of rest for people to visit and be refreshed. And besides, if God calls us to something, is it really so odd that he should make it something that appeals to us? Although there are plenty of nuns who say they resisted the calling at first, hating the idea of it.
And even though it appeals to me in general, seeming to fit the person God has created me to be, I know it will still be incredibly hard. Obedience is the hardest thing - you no longer have the freedom to do what you want when you want to (very few people have quite that freedom anyway, but as a nun, you've signed up for obedience for the rest of your life). You choose to do that, of course, but it's a big decision. The days are long, and even in an enclosed order, you are working throughout the day, as well as praying.
Sadly, there seems such little awareness of monastic life in general, which has contributed to why it's taken me so long to be able to puruse this seriously. Plenty of non-religious people think it's rather a humorous thing, to be made fun of, and a lot of Christians have this attitude that it's an outdated, selfish thing.
From a sociological perspective, I'm wondering if self-preservation is one reason why evangelicals haven't historically had much esteem for the monastic life.
For most of its long history the RCC has been the largest Christian denomination, and has therefore not been short of families and practical, world-centered people for most of that time. Therefore the existence of monasteries and convents wasn't really about 'wasting' anything that the RCC didn't already have in abundance. (Indeed, for some of its history wasn't it the custom to send 'surplus' daughters into convents?)
Evangelicals, meanwhile, have mostly been in much younger, smaller, fragmented groups which have needed to try harder to impose themselves on the world, and to expand their numbers by births as well as conversions. From their point of view, sending healthy, committed believers to live among themselves and eschew family life would be of little use to the wider church. Not unless these evangelical monastics were sufficiently numerous and influential to be able to run schools, charitable endeavours, evangelistic programmes, etc, the way that some of the RC ones do. This is unlikely to be the case.
There may be an increasing interest in Catholic spirituality among all Protestants, but it's hard to imagine evangelical groups funding their own monasteries! Perhaps there'll be more (rather expensive) retreat centres for overworked evangelical executives, and 'community houses' where young single Christians will live together for a few years. But the lifelong celibacy thing isn't really where it's at in any of the denominations. Even the RCs don't seem all that convinced about it.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I've just returned from a residential editorial session for a Christian magazine whifh was held at a Quaker study centre. I was impressed with the ethos there and could certainly see value in such a place - likewise with retreat centres and so on - although these need not necessarily be monastic, of course.
If someone feels led to pursue sone kind of contemplative or monastic life then that's great - why do we feel compelled to question their motivation or suspect them of selfishness?
There aren't that many 'enclosed' orders and many 'religious' do things in the community - teaching, working with people with special needs etc.
The contacts I've had with monks and nuns - RC, Orthodox or Anglican - have largely been favourable. Like Laurelin I don't find it anywhere near as problematic as I would have done at one stage.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Please see NB at end of post before reading.
This is a bit long I’m afraid…
With all its problems, both natural and political, the’western’ world provides the security and support in which religious orders can function well. We are so very lucky that all our physical needs for food, clothing, heating, lighting, medical needs, and transport, are met by non-monastic workers and that’s the way things are. I imagine it is very unlikely that any monastic religious group in the UK does not have the means to access these services. Even if a group decide to provide for themselves, the materials they need are available. This is not a problem, there is no reason why this should be otherwise. *
Raptor Eye
The point about being ‘called by God’ to take up a role as a monk or a nun does of course raise my scepticcal antennae!! It is their own, human, very personal choice, but however the choice is made, what they do, and how and why remain interesting questions I think. I have no reason to suppose that the motivation for the choice is other than a genuine desire to do good, and I take your point about not doing it to set themselves apart. In my opinion, the person’s genetic make up, plus nature/nurture, is what makes them decide, not any ‘call’ from God, .
Snags
YesThank you – plenty to think about there. I suppose we have all evolved to stay alive, but it is fortunate that altruism seems to have been a strong survival trait, since survival of the group provides a greater likelihood of survival of the individual.
As far as the value of monastic orders is concerned in the 21st century, well, I cannot think of what they do that could not be done by non-religious people and maybe done better, since there would be no reference to God and it would be more clearly understood that it is an entirely human dicision.
Laurelin
Leaving aside the question of faith schools,
The prayers of nuns and monks in religious orders are very formalised, aren’t they, and I wonder why they think that’s what their God wants?
I see your point about these orders being an example of simple living etc, but there are an increasing number of individuals and groups who are well aware of the need for sustainability and set about it directly without the need for God. (I read ‘Human Planet’ recently – very encouraging.)
Retreats, for rest and catching up with oneself seem to be on the increase, and I imagine they will continue to be popular, while at the same time losing the close connection with faith beliefs.
Yes, as you say, ‘Christianity ain’t dead yet’ – It will long outlast me for a start!
Fineline
I think it might well take quite some courage to take up a life-long commitment to a religious order and it certainly wouldn’t suit someone like me one little bit, even when I had a belief. One advantage of this time in history - you would not suffer any dire consequences or anything if you changed your mind after some years!
Thank you for your later point about competition and usefulness.
Boogie Well said!
(**Pause to google whether religious orders pay income tax, and then of course I wonder, what is the major source of their income?
NB: I typed this on a Word doc and when I previewed all sorts of odd things turned up in the place of various punctuation marks. I am not sure if I can correct it - my apologies.
[ 12. November 2015, 17:47: Message edited by: SusanDoris ]
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
If someone feels led to pursue sone kind of contemplative or monastic life then that's great - why do we feel compelled to question their motivation or suspect them of selfishness?
Yes, this is what I'm curious about too - the idea that one can and should attribute certain motives to a whole group of pretty diverse people. Every nun and monk is an indvidual, with their own set of personality traits, motives, flaws and strengths. I've met nuns I thought were selfish, but not because they were nuns. I've also met nuns I thought were exceptionally altruistic/selfless or whatever you want to call it, but again, not specifically because they were nuns. I think any vocation where you're following God sincerely and praying humbly should help you grow and develop in love and the ability to look beyond yourself and reach out to others. It's about a whole relationship with God rather than just what you happen to be doing.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
SusanDoris, I appreciate you asking the questions about monastic life. You are voicing what a lot of people think, but many are afraid to say, for fear of offending, but I like it when people ask, because then it becomes an open discussion.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
So, what kind of prayers might their God prefer, SusanDoris?
Why might he/she prefer less formalised ones?
The point is about a particular calling and way of life and the pattern/model of prayer reflects that. As to whether other agencies can do things better or more effectively, well yes ... but monastic groups do what they do.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
The prayers of nuns and monks in religious orders are very formalised, aren’t they, and I wonder why they think that’s what their God wants?
This is a huge overgeneralization, I think. In my experience, the prayers of nuns and monks in religious orders are a healthy mix of "formalized" prayer and very "informal" prayer. Indeed, and again in my experience, the goal of those in these communities is to make prayer of every aspect of life, whether one is engaged in liturgical prayer in community, in growing and preparing food for others to eat, in solitary study, or simply in being in the presence of another.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
Nuns and monks do the Divine Office, which are psalms chanted (or spoken) together, at certain times of the day - that is their 'formal' prayer.
Other than that, their prayer is incredibly varied, and they sometimes lead workshops to help people pray more creatviely and find individual ways of praying. One nun has written a book on praying with colours. Often nuns and monks pray with no words - they aim to develop a communication with God that transcends words. Silence is a big part of their prayer. And they often see their work as a prayer. Prayer infuses everything. SusanDoris, if you are curious to know more, there are some excellent books out there on monastic life and prayer and love. The Carthusian books are particularly good, such as Interior Prayer and Way of Silent Love. Monastic life is actually pretty hard to explain unless you experience it.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I have met plenty of monastic people, in the Middle East, Haiti ... who managed to channel the energy and inspiration they receive through prayer into working towards peace and reconciliation in very difficult situations. They literally saved lives. I am very impressed by their work, and I am convinced that their prayer helped them to do these very real and important things.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
Also, thinking about how to word this - I don't think nuns and monks go about their prayer because they think God wants a particular type of prayer. It really isn't like that at all. They pray because they love God and want to worship him and communicate with him and be in his presence. The Divine Office is part of the church tradition - it's a way of connecting with Christians all around the world who are also praying it.
SusanDoris, I think your understanding of monastics is quite different from the reality - you seem to be thinking they are worrying about what kind of prayer God wants, or whether their way of life is more useful than people going into space. It's not about proving themselves or competing or trying to win heaven points or have the best kind of prayer or anything like that. That sort of thinking is very alien to monastic life. Very alien to me too, which is why I'm finding it hard to explain - I think the best way for you to get a sense of it would be to visit a monastery - stay there for a few days, talk to the nuns/monks, experience the silence. Monastic life is about humility, loving and respecting everyone, serving God quietly. It's a struggle, because nuns and monks are human and it's hard living in a community of very different people, but the aim is humility and service and loving God and knowing God in a deeper way.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Susan Doris I puzzle about you. You say you do not believe, you are an atheist, you think science has the answers to everything. Yet you worry over bones that, according to your sitzimleben, ought to be completely irrelevant. And you argue about these on a website where most people have a completely different world view from the one that you adamantly self-proclaim.
Why?
Monks and nuns function according to a view of life, the universe and everything that you insist you do not share. You are open about the fact that you say you don't understand them. To understand them, would involve adopting a view of life, the universe and everything that you clearly determined you don't want anything to do with.
It is both impossible and unreasonable to evaluate them according to your view of life, the universe and everything rather than according to theirs.
You can say 'from my perspective, they are wasting their lives'. However, the corollary is that you must accept that they are equally entitled to say (though they would probably put it more charitably) that according to their perspective, you are wasting yours. You would doubtless say, 'no, this is different because from my perspective, I am modern, rational and right, whereas they are benighted, backward and wrong'. However, this depends on perspective, opinion. Self-evidently, they wouldn't agree with you.
So once again, why get into an argument on this? What is it about the issue that bugs you?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
I have respect for anyone wanting to pursue a deeper relationship with Divine Influence by joining a monastery or convent . Or more to the point, respect for the reason or motivation that leads them towards this path.
Calling it self-indulgent is an easy criticism to make, and there have been good points made above to counter such criticism.
Comparing it in my mind to the indulgent living an average modern lifestyle makes me wonder which is the most indulgent, or how we even go about quantifying the whole concept of indulgent living.
AIUI there are different levels of austerity to different Orders. It could be said that the Orders which enjoy all the trappings of modern living make themselves an easier target for critics.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Raptor Eye
The point about being ‘called by God’ to take up a role as a monk or a nun does of course raise my scepticcal antennae!! It is their own, human, very personal choice, but however the choice is made, what they do, and how and why remain interesting questions I think. I have no reason to suppose that the motivation for the choice is other than a genuine desire to do good, and I take your point about not doing it to set themselves apart. In my opinion, the person’s genetic make up, plus nature/nurture, is what makes them decide, not any ‘call’ from God
It is their personal choice to accept God's calling into service in this way. I disagree that it is to do with who they are in terms of genetic make-up and nature/nurture. It is not something they dream up for themselves as they would naturally fit into that lifestyle, quite the opposite from those I've spoken to. Many fight God's calling for a long time before they give in to it.
It takes years to allow and co-operate with God as they are continually shaped into it. They grow in faith and spirituality, which spills the love of God out into the community around them, so that the place becomes a centre of goodness, a place where God's presence is tangible.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
Susan Doris writes: quote:
With all its problems, both natural and political, the’western’ world provides the security and support in which religious orders can function well. *snip*
I fear that my eyebrows raised on this one-- there are many historical periods where the monasteries have been centres of safety and learning during extended periods of civil strife and societal dislocation. Indeed, for folk of no religion, this has long been identified as the most beneficial of monastic activities.
I do not know about the UK, but religious activity is a charitable activity under the (Canadian) Income Tax Act, and so donations to monasteries would be eligible for an income tax receipt (the sum is deducted from one's taxable income and often there can be a rebate or refund of the tax paid). Aside from a very few houses which received public endowments from France before 1763, none have received any public support.
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Adeodatus
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# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I agree! However, do you think there is any degree of selfishness involved?
I have an idea or two on this, but will wait for a while before posting.
I think this is the sort of thing that happens when a selfish person tries to live in community: Soliloquy of the Spanish Cloister.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
I have respect for anyone wanting to pursue a deeper relationship with Divine Influence by joining a monastery or convent . Or more to the point, respect for the reason or motivation that leads them towards this path.
Calling it self-indulgent is an easy criticism to make, and there have been good points made above to counter such criticism.
Comparing it in my mind to the indulgent living an average modern lifestyle makes me wonder which is the most indulgent, or how we even go about quantifying the whole concept of indulgent living.
And it could be said that in many respects Christianity is a 'self-indulgent' religion anyway. Monastics aren't the only Christians expected to devote a considerable amount of time to their own souls, their own theological education, their own salvation, their own religious destiny, etc. Many of us attend churches which expect us to manage most of this on our own.
Moreover, living in a monastery or convent involves conforming oneself to the standards of a 'Christian community' 24/7, so how is it more self-indulgent than going to church on Sunday mornings and doing your own thing the rest of the week?
Many Westerners who identify as Christians on census forms can't even tolerate 'Christian community' on Sunday mornings. Most of us want to do faith our way - alone. There may be perfectly good reasons for this, but it could certainly be presented as a form of self-indulgence.
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
All of what I write is obviously with the added caveat that Susan Doris will think a lot of it silly and the people stupid for believing the fairytale she calls 'God', but with that in mind let me add something.
The conversation has been circling around whether or not religious orders are selfish. Perhaps in the past it could have been said to have been the case - you got medical care (of a sort), you got a roof over your head, you ate reasonably well - but the question of whether people entered orders with the wrong motives or not seems to me to be an eternal one that doesn't necessarily follow through into the objectives of any given order. It would be a little akin to saying that politicians are all defunct and should be allowed to die out because of a few corrupt ones who are doing it solely to line their own pockets.
If we take the Dominicans that have been mentioned, they initially worked at ridding the church of the gnostic heresies. They weren't particularly good at this it must be said, but perhaps things would have been worse without them, it is (as with many orders) hard to quantify. Later they experienced a revival of sorts in the nineteenth century, mainly due to their record on the protection and development of human rights as a result of the exploitation and cruel treatment of natives they witnessed in colonies.
Like other orders today it could be argued that they have lost a focus. Some of this is due to the fact that their work is done. This is an important point, because some orders only exist for a particular role and once that role is complete they either naturally fold or they deliberately shut themselves down. There are many orders in the past and even in the present who essentially work towards their own extinction. I'm not sure I can call this a selfish enterprise.
Looking at orders generally, very few orders actually only involve themselves in the activity of constant prayer. Most of them have some kind of work - either of an academic or theological nature (some are involved in the area of the advancement of scientific knowledge, so not necessarily always 'humanities)'or as employees in the world contributing to society as a whole. Part of their lifestyle is to only take what they need and generally speaking, almost all orders follow a path of both charity and poverty. For those that are involved in constant contemplation, they are praying for the world believing that it shall make a difference. They feel drawn to doing this act full time and in a very focused way because they believe that prayer does make a difference. To say that this is in some sense a selfish act seems rather difficult when you consider what it is that they give up, but the world today believes all sorts of strange things about orders and perpetuates various myths, partly because they don't understand it but largely because they have never taken the time to talk to any of them.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Well, I'm a member of a dispersed neo-monastic community (Northumbria Community) and use its four daily offices. A number of neo-monastic communities have introduced (re-introduced) daily offices. Here are the guidelines I work to.
The two aspects of the value of daily offices which I relate to most strongly are that they provide a regular rhythm of prayer and act as an antidote to the activity-based "noisiness" of my life.
There is some self-selection in this. Like a lot of Protestants, I've spent a lot of my life as an activist, been busy doing stuff. About 20 years ago (following a minor heart attack), I realised that the activist lifestyle was getting in the way of my ability to reflect, take stock, contemplate. That realisation acted as a spur to find means of reflection and contemplation; I felt such steps would be good for all aspects of my health (mental, physical, spiritual, the way they all connected). I wasn't sure at the time that it would help me to live longer, but I hoped ..
So what started essentially as self-interested protection has in practice turned out to be very helpful in all sorts of ways, particularly in terms of how I relate to others. I don't claim it would be helpful for all; it's certainly been very good for me.
[ 13. November 2015, 09:54: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
Are we talking about all monastic orders, or only contemplatives*?
Plenty of monastic orders spend significant amounts of their time doing practical good for the people around them.
If you’ve never seen it, the French film “Des hommes et des dieux” (Of men and gods) is a masterpiece. It is based on the true story of eight French Catholic monks living in Tibérine, Algeria during the civil war in the 1990s. Six of them were kidnapped and presumably murdered, although it has never been entirely clear who killed them, whether the Islamists or the Algerian government. The bodies have never been found. Two survived, one of whom has since died of old age.
Several times the brothers are seen debating whether they should leave and go back to safety in France. They eventually decide that the servant is not above his master and they cannot abandon the Algerian people. One of the brothers is a trained doctor, who provides free medical care to the village where they live. He treats anyone who turns up no questions asked, including Islamist fighters (this is one reason why the Algerian government is suspected of collusion in the murder). They hand out food and clothes. They help the illiterate fill in official paperwork and write letters. The kidnap of these men was a horrific tragedy. They had done nothing but good for the community where they lived.
*Not that I think there’s necessarily no value in being a contemplative, FWIW. But there does seem to me to be an implicit assumption that monastic = contemplative.
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
That's a good point. I've learned that restoring the balance between activist and contemplative behaviour is good for both aspects. And I agree entirely that many of the traditional monastic orders are by no means lacking in activism.
It's a mistake to assume that monasticism = withdrawal from the world into a lifetime of contemplation.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Many thanks for all the new posts. I was going to try to contain the points in one response, but they are all so interesting that that won't work. Fortunately, I have plenty of free time today and the weekend, so I'll get started asap!
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
There is some self-selection in this. Like a lot of Protestants, I've spent a lot of my life as an activist, been busy doing stuff. About 20 years ago (following a minor heart attack), I realised that the activist lifestyle was getting in the way of my ability to reflect, take stock, contemplate. That realisation acted as a spur to find means of reflection and contemplation; I felt such steps would be good for all aspects of my health (mental, physical, spiritual, the way they all connected). I wasn't sure at the time that it would help me to live longer, but I hoped ..
So what started essentially as self-interested protection has in practice turned out to be very helpful in all sorts of ways, particularly in terms of how I relate to others. I don't claim it would be helpful for all; it's certainly been very good for me.
This makes a lot of sense to me, and something I've realised is that one's life doesn't always have to be one thing. There may be a time in one's life for activism and a time for contemplation. It's not necessarily God's will that everyone does 'active' things for the entire of their lives. Nor that everyone constantly combines the two. There is a place for both, but that doesn't mean that everyone must be embodying both all the time.
There is such a vast variety of people in the world - God makes everyone different and we all glorify him in our own way. Some may combine the contemplative and active throughout their life. Some may just do one of these throughout their life. Some may have a period of doing one and then a period of doing the other. And all of those possibilities are okay. God can use people for good in all sorts of ways that don't necessarily fit our idea of the ideal Christian life.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
That's a good point. I've learned that restoring the balance between activist and contemplative behaviour is good for both aspects.
This is so very true in all walks of life.
99% of teachers lack time for this sort of balance. Simply thinking about the work and considering what works well takes time. They have precious little, despite the holidays.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
It's a mistake to assume that monasticism = withdrawal from the world into a lifetime of contemplation.
Yes, and I don't think that is the case even for enclosed orders. I say 'enclosed' rather than 'contemplative' because I've found the monastics who are not enclosed sometimes dislike the enclosed monastics being called contemplatives, because it suggests the non-enclosed are not contemplative, when they see themselves as contemplative too.
Enclosed orders may not go out physically into the world, but they are generally giving rest and hospitality to people who come to visit. There is a deep peace in enclosed orders and people seek this out, and it helps them in their faith. The contemplation of the monastics is essential for fostering that peace. And many people really appreciate the prayer - they bring their prayer petitions to the monastics to be prayed for.
And while enclosed monastics spend time in contemplation, they are not sitting contemplating all day long - they are welcoming visitors, building relationships with the community, and also doing practical things throughout the day - from making meals for the community and the guests, to cleaning the chapel and the guest rooms, and often paid work such as packaging altar breads to send to places that need it, as a way of earning money, and also sometime sending them free to places in the world who can't afford it.
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Fineline
*sigh*I had transferred this from doc to edit area, did something accidentally and it disappeared. Lucky most of it is still here in doc.
Thank you for your interesting thoughts and commentss. I think I'll combine them and respond in one post.
quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
I think any vocation where you're following God sincerely and praying humbly should help you grow and develop in love and the ability to look beyond yourself and reach out to others.
That certainly motivates many. Obviously non-believers can reach out to others equally well, although they might well, if asked, say that it is simply a right and natural thing for humans to do. quote:
SusanDoris, I appreciate you asking the questions about monastic life. You are voicing what a lot of people think, but many are afraid to say, for fear of offending, but I like it when people ask, because then it becomes an open discussion.
Yes, and that’s why the SofF is a good thing and where I appreciate the opportunities to discuss such subjects. I don’t know any place quite like it, or a discussion group where such topics are included ! quote:
Nuns and monks do the Divine Office, which are psalms chanted (or spoken) together, at certain times of the day - that is their 'formal' prayer.
We humans have evolved to function better if we have a routine of things to do which leaves the mind plenty of time to think and be alert for unexpected emergencies. As I mentioned earlier, I wish the humanists had something similar to psalms to sing in harmony. quote:
Other than that, their prayer is incredibly varied, and they sometimes lead workshops to help people pray more creatviely and find individual ways of praying. One nun has written a book on praying with colours. Often nuns and monks pray with no words - they aim to develop a communication with God that transcends words.
What is it I wonder that convinces them there is God with which to communicate, when so many others believe in different gods or none at all? That question doesn’t apply here, though, as this topic is much more about religious orders themselves and I’m staying away from the question of God’s existence!! quote:
Silence is a big part of their prayer. And they often see their work as a prayer. Prayer infuses everything. SusanDoris, if you are curious to know more, there are some excellent books out there on monastic life and prayer and love. The Carthusian books are particularly good, such as Interior Prayer and Way of Silent Love.
Thank you for the titles. I would love to be able to borrow them from the Library and scan through them, but can’t do that of course. You just can’t do a quick browse with audio books. quote:
Monastic life is actually pretty hard to explain unless you experience it.
Actually, I think it would be very interesting to stay in such a place for a few days, especially if there were a couple of nuns or monks who would enjoy a challenge – very courteously put of course – from me! The trouble is of course that I can’t be independent in such circumstances and need guiding most of the time.
You mention humility – I know what you mean, but too much humility is not a good idea in my opinion. Respect, certainly, but humility is a separate consideration.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
So, what kind of prayers might their God prefer, SusanDoris?
Ah, well, I have to admit that I have no idea! quote:
Why might he/she prefer less formalised ones?
The point is about a particular calling and way of life and the pattern/model of prayer reflects that. As to whether other agencies can do things better or more effectively, well yes ... but monastic groups do what they do.
Yes - and obviously fulfil a need, but I venture to say that if the number of applicants for such roles does not continue to decline,* perhaps it would suggest that indoctrination of the younger generations has too much of a hold.
*I do not know the statistics for this.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
You mention humility – I know what you mean, but too much humility is not a good idea in my opinion. Respect, certainly, but humility is a separate consideration.
Interesting point SusanDoris.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Nick tamen
Thank you. As a child, I was given the idea that I should do everything as if God could observe, but am glad I did not spend too much time concerning myself about it!
Le Roc
I would agree that the monastic people you refer to focused their energy to help them achieve their objectives. Naturally, I would interpret the source of their energy differently.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
What is it I wonder that convinces them there is God with which to communicate, when so many others believe in different gods or none at all? That question doesn’t apply here, though, as this topic is much more about religious orders themselves and I’m staying away from the question of God’s existence!!
Heh, yes, that is a much broader question about people of faith in general, so not specific to monastic life! And may well be a different answer from each person you ask anyway.
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Thank you for the titles. I would love to be able to borrow them from the Library and scan through them, but can’t do that of course. You just can’t do a quick browse with audio books.
Well, those types of books don't really lend themselves to a 'quick browse' anyway. I've found monastic life isn't the kind of thing that can be easily summarised into bullet points. So you'd be reading them - not sure if they are on audiobook or if you'd have to get someone to read them to you. You could just read the first couple chapters to get a sense of them though - and they are pretty short books.
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Actually, I think it would be very interesting to stay in such a place for a few days, especially if there were a couple of nuns or monks who would enjoy a challenge – very courteously put of course – from me! The trouble is of course that I can’t be independent in such circumstances and need guiding most of the time.
I imagine you'd find it interesting, if you could find a way to travel to a monastery or convent. They tend to be pretty accommodating. I stayed at a convent where a young blind woman often came to visit and talk to the nuns. Or maybe you could email a convent to ask questions. Or read their websites - they often have a FAQ section, and sections that tells you about the routine of the nuns/monks and why they do what they do. For me, the only way to really get a sense of monastic life, and why the monastics do what they do, has been to talk to them, to read their websites, their books, etc.
Another really interesting book - if you're up for reading an entire book (or even a few chapters) - is New Habits by Isobel Losada. The author went to visit various women who'd become Anglican nuns fairly recently, and interviewed them. So there are chapters from a whole variety of different nuns, from very different backgrounds, and they talk honestly about what motivated them to become nuns, the struggles they've had, the reactions of friends and family. It may well answer some of your questions.
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Nick tamen
Thank you. As a child, I was given the idea that I should do everything as if God could observe, but am glad I did not spend too much time concerning myself about it!
I don't think many monastics would understand it that way at all, though. It's not about God observing all that you do—which for too many children (and too many adults) typically entails the suggestion of not doing anything that will get you in trouble, because God is watching.
Monastics would, I think, see it more as an awareness of the presence of God in all circumstances, and of looking for the presence of God in all circumstances. It's not about not getting in trouble at all. It's about growing in relationship with the divine and living an authentically human life.*
* And I don't think any monastic worth his or her salt would suggest that the monastic life is the only way to live an authentically human life. They would, I think, say it is the way for them personally to do so.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
You mention humility – I know what you mean, but too much humility is not a good idea in my opinion. Respect, certainly, but humility is a separate consideration.
You say you know what I mean, but how can you be sure? You don't know me, and I find different people have very different understandings of humility.
You were talking as if nuns were competitive, needing to prove themselves the best. To me, the opposite of this is humility - being secure in who they are, not needing to prove themselves to anyone or be better than anyone. To have their security in God, rather than in others' opinions, or needing to achieve worldly status. To me that is a far happier and freer way of being.
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
I don't think many monastics would understand it that way at all, though. It's not about God observing all that you do—which for too many children (and too many adults) typically entails the suggestion of not doing anything that will get you in trouble, because God is watching.
Monastics would, I think, see it more as an awareness of the presence of God in all circumstances, and of looking for the presence of God in all circumstances. It's not about not getting in trouble at all. It's about growing in relationship with the divine and living an authentically human life.*
* And I don't think any monastic worth his or her salt would suggest that the monastic life is the only way to live an authentically human life. They would, I think, say it is the way for them personally to do so.
Yes. All of this - this is what I observe when I spend time in convents and talking to nuns. It's not a 'God is watching you' mindset, but a mindset of wanting to be in God's presence. Valuing the time focused on God, knowing God, loving God, experiencing his love. God is not seen as the enemy - he's your deepest, closest friend, and it's a privilege to in his presence. Gosh, if faith were about God as a big brother figure watching you to make sure you behave yourself, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be a Christian, let alone be pursuing a monastic vocation!
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Susan Doris I puzzle about you. You say you do not believe, you are an atheist, you think science has the answers to everything. Yet you worry over bones that, according to your sitzimleben, ought to be completely irrelevant. And you argue about these on a website where most people have a completely different world view from the one that you adamantly self-proclaim.
Why?
First, I do not believe that Science has the answer to everything; there are innumerable don’t knows which provide a never-ending source for research and, one hopes, greater increase in reliable, factual knowledge. I do not ‘worry over bones’, especially at my age, and in certain knowledge that, if I did, the only person who might suffer in however small a way from doing so would be me!! I googled that sitzimleben phrase, but don’t think I quite understand it!
I’m not sure either whatis irrelevant. The more one knows about how people think and feel and choose to run their lives, the more interestinglife is.
I do not know whether I would have joined discussion forums if I had retained reading vision – unlikely, I think, because, although I would certainly have bought a computer, I would be taking part in a range of other activities. quote:
Monks and nuns function according to a view of life, the universe and everything that you insist you do not share. You are open about the fact that you say you don't understand them. To understand them, would involve adopting a view of life, the universe and everything that you clearly determined you don't want anything to do with.
But, in a way, being interested in something I certainly would not choose to do myself all adds to how interesting life, the universe and everything are.
A week or so ago, I spent an hour with a Psycho-Therapist. This had been recommended as it might be helpful in recovering from being knocked down last year. I was practically certain that she would not be able to think of anything I hadn’t thought of myself, but unless I went, I’d never be quite sure, would I? I am always interested in learning new things. At the end I asked her if she thought I needed any more counselling. Her answer was immediate with no reservations. ‘Oh, no,’ she said, ‘I can see you’ve thought it through and are a very determined lady!’ Even if at some later date I find myself remembering the actual impact plus the subsequent 40 minutes, it will not cause me any concern. quote:
It is both impossible and unreasonable to evaluate them according to your view of life, the universe and everything rather than according to theirs.
You can say 'from my perspective, they are wasting their lives'. However, the corollary is that you must accept that they are equally entitled to say (though they would probably put it more charitably) that according to their perspective, you are wasting yours.
That sounds very fair; I would not disagree with that. quote:
You would doubtless say, 'no, this is different because from my perspective, I am modern, rational and right, whereas they are benighted, backward and wrong'. However, this depends on perspective, opinion. Self-evidently, they wouldn't agree with you.
I would not in discussion call them either 'benighted' or 'wrong' but if we had agreed to find out more about each other's point of view, I would ask why and how and expect to be similarly challenged. .But I hope very much we would both have benefited from the conversation. quote:
So once again, why get into an argument on this? What is it about the issue
that bugs you?
Nothing about it 'bugs me'. I was thinking about the subject and thought it might be of interest here.
[ 13. November 2015, 15:46: Message edited by: SusanDoris ]
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
I have respect for anyone wanting to pursue a deeper relationship with Divine Influence by joining a monastery or convent . Or more to the point, respect for the reason or motivation that leads them towards this path.
Calling it self-indulgent is an easy criticism to make, and there have been good points made above to counter such criticism.
Comparing it in my mind to the indulgent living an average modern lifestyle makes me wonder which is the most indulgent, or how we even go about quantifying the whole concept of indulgent living.
AIUI there are different levels of austerity to different Orders. It could be said that the Orders which enjoy all the trappings of modern living make themselves an easier target for critics.
Thank you. In some ways, I suppose, to make the choice today to become a monk or a nun could be considered more difficult because of the ease of access to many detractin and opposing views.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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