Ship of Fools: Religious monastic orders

Thread: Religious monastic orders Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :

Religious orders: their purposes funding and
achievements.

In the topic about theologians *, the subject of monks and nuns occurred briefly. I thought it might be interesting to see what opinions there are here about religious orders, their value, benefits and/or drawbacks to society, how they are funded and their prospects for the future. I am thinking specifically of Christian orders, where those people who freely choose this way of life enrol nowadays, and who choose to set themselves apart** in order to serve God.

As an atheist I think such orders are a very long way past their sell-by date and are slowly but surely becoming an anachronism, but no doubt they will continue for a long time to come. I have googled ‘public funding for religious orders’ and a quick look shows that, for instance, one Dominican group are going to do a sponsored walk to raise £1 million to cover costs of training etc etc. Whether there is any government money allocated to any of these orders, or which ones may have charitable status, I do not know.

I can sort of understand their belief that the prayers they offer up, following a set format have a good effect, but think they are wrong. Well over ten years ago scientists, using Newton’s and later physicists’ knowledge, planned for a journey for a space module carrying a probe to travel for ten years, arrive at a comet and land the probe on said comet. This has happened just as planned. Do members of religious orders think that the God they believe in had any part in such an endeavour, or that their prayers are more useful than such an achievement?

I look forward to learning more about present-day orders and their justification for their place in society.

*i.e. the factthat they know nothing
** this phrase from a google linkabout God!!

Posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger (# 8891) on :

They still exist in society because people want to belong to them.

If people want to devote their lives to prayer and study, where's the harm?

Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
They still exist in society because people want to belong to them.

If people want to devote their lives to prayer and study, where's the harm?

I agree! However, do you think there is any degree of selfishness involved?
I have an idea or two on this, but will wait for a while before posting.

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :

Christian religious orders have huge spiritual value to the communities in which they serve. Prayer is important, so too are the services they offer in terms of giving their time to people.

It isn't about people choosing to set themselves apart, it's about people choosing to accept God's calling for them to do so, which is not the same thing at all. Everyone is not called into a monastic order. It is one of the important functions of religious organisations to help each one of us to ascertain God's calling for us. Of course, if you think that there is no God, you may not understand the concept of calling.

Posted by Snags (# 15351) on :

The thing with selfishness is, as I believe as been done before here, you can define your terms in such a way that all acts are "selfish" otherwise you wouldn't choose to do them. It's an intellectual/debating trick that always wins the argument (if you're arguing that everyone is inherently selfish) but is a bit sneaky and rather craps on any opportunity for altruism or self-less action.

You may guess that I think it's a dubious standpoint [Smile]

Regarding religious orders, I think you need to define what you consider to have value or demonstrate a net 'good' before one can comment on their efficacy or worth. Obviously from an atheistic position the prayer and ritual worship won't have any intrinsic value, but that's not the sole focus of religious orders in my limited knowledge. Those that also look outwards and have a strong emphasis on charitable works or social action could potentially be seen as contributing a 'good' independent of any spiritual aspects.

Of course, if one casts one's net wide enough, there's a question about whether any collective activty's positives outweigh perceived negatives or irrelevance, from reading groups to sports teams to knitting groups to religious groups to ... pretty much anything.

Posted by Laurelin (# 17211) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Whether there is any government money allocated to any of these orders, or which ones may have charitable status, I do not know.

I am surprised that you think that even the formal religious orders (i.e. the Catholic and Anglican orders) would have, or ever have had, any kind of government funding.

(But perhaps you have the Catholic teaching orders in mind. In England, the independent Catholic schools, many of which were founded by religious orders, are not state-run. However, Catholic schools in Northern Ireland ARE state-run.)

quote:
Do members of religious orders think that the God they believe in had any part in such an endeavour, or that their prayers are more useful than such an achievement?

Since you regard ALL prayers as useless and a waste of time, I don't see why you're singling out the prayers of nuns and monks in particular. [Biased]

quote:
I look forward to learning more about present-day orders and their justification for their place in society.

I'm not Catholic myself, or high Anglican, but I think that religious communities in the traditions of Benedict, or Francis, or whoever, or run by whoever (there are also Christian communities run by folk who aren't nuns or monks) have a great deal to offer about the value of simplicity, sustainability and simple living. In a world of consumerism gone mad, in a world where climate change is a huge threat, there is great value in modelling such a lifestyle. [Cool]

Lots of people are drawn to go on retreat, and the Christian retreat houses also attract some non-Christians. So these communities clearly offer something very attractive. There is a great hunger in people for peace and quiet, and these communities, with their lovely traditions of hospitality, offer it.

As it happens, I had lunch at Buckfast Abbey in Devon last week. Benedictine community. Gorgeous place. With a lovely and unusual gift shop. [Smile]

http://www.buckfast.org.uk/

Where I bought this: http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/en/cat/4794709

Gregorian plainchant accompanied by ancient Yemenite Jewish chants, OH YEAH BABY. [Cool]

Despite falling vocations in Europe, I am quite sure that the monastic thing WILL continue, and perhaps develop and inspire other initiatives. Quite a lot of evangelicals are beginning to wake up to the contemplative tradition.

Besides: Christianity ain't dead yet, Susan. [Biased]

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

I was brought up to believe (from the particular types of evangelical churches I attended) that monks and nuns were not following God, that they were not helping the world, that they were hiding themselves away, being self-absorbed, not doing what God commands in the Bible.

So when I felt drawn to monastic life, as I did from an early age, I immediately suppressed that urge as wrong and selfish. I'm in my 40s now, and only in the past few years have I allowed myself to think more openly about it, with the encouragement of a good friend who knows quite a bit about monastic life. And I have constantly struggled with these attitudes that I grew up with - plus, it's something that appeals to me, so surely that in itself makes it selfish?

From having visited quite a few convents, and prayed a lot about it, I see it rather differently now. The vital importance of a constant praying presence, a place of rest for people to visit and be refreshed. And besides, if God calls us to something, is it really so odd that he should make it something that appeals to us? Although there are plenty of nuns who say they resisted the calling at first, hating the idea of it.

And even though it appeals to me in general, seeming to fit the person God has created me to be, I know it will still be incredibly hard. Obedience is the hardest thing - you no longer have the freedom to do what you want when you want to (very few people have quite that freedom anyway, but as a nun, you've signed up for obedience for the rest of your life). You choose to do that, of course, but it's a big decision. The days are long, and even in an enclosed order, you are working throughout the day, as well as praying.

Sadly, there seems such little awareness of monastic life in general, which has contributed to why it's taken me so long to be able to puruse this seriously. Plenty of non-religious people think it's rather a humorous thing, to be made fun of, and a lot of Christians have this attitude that it's an outdated, selfish thing.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

I'm sure that God was watching over every picometer of New Horizons' journey to Pluto, slightly bemused.

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

Another attitude that some people have is that I'm throwing away my life - that I could do so much good (especially as I've always done caring-type jobs, supporting people with disabilities), and I'm depriving the world of the good I could do. And realistically, if a person doesn't believe in God, then prayer will seem pointless, and so the lifestyle won't make any sense to them. I understand that, but as I believe in God and I believe prayer is vital, I am of course coming from a completely different set of beliefs, and so will reach different conclusions.

Posted by Laurelin (# 17211) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I'm sure that God was watching over every picometer of New Horizons' journey to Pluto, slightly bemused.

I doubt it was any kind of surprise to Him. [Smile]

Well said, Snags and Fineline. [Cool]

quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
I was brought up to believe (from the particular types of evangelical churches I attended) that monks and nuns were not following God, that they were not helping the world, that they were hiding themselves away, being self-absorbed, not doing what God commands in the Bible.

I remember that kind of prejudice from more fundie days. Awful. [Roll Eyes]

I'm still strongly evangelical myself, but I discarded those prejudices many moons ago, I'm very glad to say. Especially when it became clear to me that the evangelical tradition is not some kind of magical protection against the human temptation to selfishness!

All the best to you in your new-found vocation, btw. [Smile]

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
All the best to you in your new-found vocation, btw.

Thanks, Laurelin. [Smile]

I'm still in the stages of discernment, so don't know for definite if this is my vocation, but so far it seems to be leading this way.

Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :

Many thanks for the replies so far. I will have another read this evening, and then post.

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Well over ten years ago scientists, using Newton’s and later physicists’ knowledge, planned for a journey for a space module carrying a probe to travel for ten years, arrive at a comet and land the probe on said comet. This has happened just as planned. Do members of religious orders think that the God they believe in had any part in such an endeavour, or that their prayers are more useful than such an achievement?

Bunch of glory boys playing model rockets if you ask me. Wouldn't it have been more useful for all of that brain power to be put to work on a cure for Parkinson's?

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Do members of religious orders think that the God they believe in had any part in such an endeavour, or that their prayers are more useful than such an achievement?

To answer this seriously, in my experience, members of religious orders don't tend to see life as a competition as to who is most useful. It's more about following where you believe God is calling you, which may be something very humble.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
Bunch of glory boys playing model rockets if you ask me. Wouldn't it have been more useful for all of that brain power to be put to work on a cure for Parkinson's?

The exploration of space is an incredible springboard for creativity. It engineers enormous technological innovation which enhances daily life - from advances in aviation to medical devices that help save lives.

It's a really important motivation for young people to become interested in science, maths, physics and technology.

Everyone on Earth benefits from space exploration.

Who benefits from the prayers of monks and nuns? If it's the monks and nuns themselves then I say good luck to them, let them do what makes them happy. But I would hesitate to say they were being altruistic in any way, any more than other people who decide to live together in close knit communities.

I do know that I couldn't do it - it's hard enough living with two other people!

[ 12. November 2015, 16:34: Message edited by: Boogie ]

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

Yeah, that was really more of a comment about how silly it is to call someone out for not doing what you subjectively rank as "useful" work.

[ 12. November 2015, 16:58: Message edited by: Og, King of Bashan ]

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
I was brought up to believe (from the particular types of evangelical churches I attended) that monks and nuns were not following God, that they were not helping the world, that they were hiding themselves away, being self-absorbed, not doing what God commands in the Bible.

So when I felt drawn to monastic life, as I did from an early age, I immediately suppressed that urge as wrong and selfish. I'm in my 40s now, and only in the past few years have I allowed myself to think more openly about it, with the encouragement of a good friend who knows quite a bit about monastic life. And I have constantly struggled with these attitudes that I grew up with - plus, it's something that appeals to me, so surely that in itself makes it selfish?

From having visited quite a few convents, and prayed a lot about it, I see it rather differently now. The vital importance of a constant praying presence, a place of rest for people to visit and be refreshed. And besides, if God calls us to something, is it really so odd that he should make it something that appeals to us? Although there are plenty of nuns who say they resisted the calling at first, hating the idea of it.

And even though it appeals to me in general, seeming to fit the person God has created me to be, I know it will still be incredibly hard. Obedience is the hardest thing - you no longer have the freedom to do what you want when you want to (very few people have quite that freedom anyway, but as a nun, you've signed up for obedience for the rest of your life). You choose to do that, of course, but it's a big decision. The days are long, and even in an enclosed order, you are working throughout the day, as well as praying.

Sadly, there seems such little awareness of monastic life in general, which has contributed to why it's taken me so long to be able to puruse this seriously. Plenty of non-religious people think it's rather a humorous thing, to be made fun of, and a lot of Christians have this attitude that it's an outdated, selfish thing.

From a sociological perspective, I'm wondering if self-preservation is one reason why evangelicals haven't historically had much esteem for the monastic life.

For most of its long history the RCC has been the largest Christian denomination, and has therefore not been short of families and practical, world-centered people for most of that time. Therefore the existence of monasteries and convents wasn't really about 'wasting' anything that the RCC didn't already have in abundance. (Indeed, for some of its history wasn't it the custom to send 'surplus' daughters into convents?)

Evangelicals, meanwhile, have mostly been in much younger, smaller, fragmented groups which have needed to try harder to impose themselves on the world, and to expand their numbers by births as well as conversions. From their point of view, sending healthy, committed believers to live among themselves and eschew family life would be of little use to the wider church. Not unless these evangelical monastics were sufficiently numerous and influential to be able to run schools, charitable endeavours, evangelistic programmes, etc, the way that some of the RC ones do. This is unlikely to be the case.

There may be an increasing interest in Catholic spirituality among all Protestants, but it's hard to imagine evangelical groups funding their own monasteries! Perhaps there'll be more (rather expensive) retreat centres for overworked evangelical executives, and 'community houses' where young single Christians will live together for a few years. But the lifelong celibacy thing isn't really where it's at in any of the denominations. Even the RCs don't seem all that convinced about it.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

I've just returned from a residential editorial session for a Christian magazine whifh was held at a Quaker study centre. I was impressed with the ethos there and could certainly see value in such a place - likewise with retreat centres and so on - although these need not necessarily be monastic, of course.

If someone feels led to pursue sone kind of contemplative or monastic life then that's great - why do we feel compelled to question their motivation or suspect them of selfishness?

There aren't that many 'enclosed' orders and many 'religious' do things in the community - teaching, working with people with special needs etc.

The contacts I've had with monks and nuns - RC, Orthodox or Anglican - have largely been favourable. Like Laurelin I don't find it anywhere near as problematic as I would have done at one stage.

Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :

Please see NB at end of post before reading.
This is a bit long I’m afraid…

With all its problems, both natural and political, the’western’ world provides the security and support in which religious orders can function well. We are so very lucky that all our physical needs for food, clothing, heating, lighting, medical needs, and transport, are met by non-monastic workers and that’s the way things are. I imagine it is very unlikely that any monastic religious group in the UK does not have the means to access these services. Even if a group decide to provide for themselves, the materials they need are available. This is not a problem, there is no reason why this should be otherwise. *

Raptor Eye
The point about being ‘called by God’ to take up a role as a monk or a nun does of course raise my scepticcal antennae!! It is their own, human, very personal choice, but however the choice is made, what they do, and how and why remain interesting questions I think. I have no reason to suppose that the motivation for the choice is other than a genuine desire to do good, and I take your point about not doing it to set themselves apart. In my opinion, the person’s genetic make up, plus nature/nurture, is what makes them decide, not any ‘call’ from God, .

Snags
YesThank you – plenty to think about there. I suppose we have all evolved to stay alive, but it is fortunate that altruism seems to have been a strong survival trait, since survival of the group provides a greater likelihood of survival of the individual.

As far as the value of monastic orders is concerned in the 21st century, well, I cannot think of what they do that could not be done by non-religious people and maybe done better, since there would be no reference to God and it would be more clearly understood that it is an entirely human dicision.

Laurelin
Leaving aside the question of faith schools,
The prayers of nuns and monks in religious orders are very formalised, aren’t they, and I wonder why they think that’s what their God wants?
I see your point about these orders being an example of simple living etc, but there are an increasing number of individuals and groups who are well aware of the need for sustainability and set about it directly without the need for God. (I read ‘Human Planet’ recently – very encouraging.)
Retreats, for rest and catching up with oneself seem to be on the increase, and I imagine they will continue to be popular, while at the same time losing the close connection with faith beliefs.
Yes, as you say, ‘Christianity ain’t dead yet’ – It will long outlast me for a start! 

Fineline
I think it might well take quite some courage to take up a life-long commitment to a religious order and it certainly wouldn’t suit someone like me one little bit, even when I had a belief. One advantage of this time in history - you would not suffer any dire consequences or anything if you changed your mind after some years!
Thank you for your later point about competition and usefulness.

Boogie Well said!

(**Pause to google whether religious orders pay income tax, and then of course I wonder, what is the major source of their income?

NB: I typed this on a Word doc and when I previewed all sorts of odd things turned up in the place of various punctuation marks. I am not sure if I can correct it - my apologies.

[ 12. November 2015, 17:47: Message edited by: SusanDoris ]

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

If someone feels led to pursue sone kind of contemplative or monastic life then that's great - why do we feel compelled to question their motivation or suspect them of selfishness?

Yes, this is what I'm curious about too - the idea that one can and should attribute certain motives to a whole group of pretty diverse people. Every nun and monk is an indvidual, with their own set of personality traits, motives, flaws and strengths. I've met nuns I thought were selfish, but not because they were nuns. I've also met nuns I thought were exceptionally altruistic/selfless or whatever you want to call it, but again, not specifically because they were nuns. I think any vocation where you're following God sincerely and praying humbly should help you grow and develop in love and the ability to look beyond yourself and reach out to others. It's about a whole relationship with God rather than just what you happen to be doing.

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

SusanDoris, I appreciate you asking the questions about monastic life. You are voicing what a lot of people think, but many are afraid to say, for fear of offending, but I like it when people ask, because then it becomes an open discussion.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

So, what kind of prayers might their God prefer, SusanDoris?

Why might he/she prefer less formalised ones?

The point is about a particular calling and way of life and the pattern/model of prayer reflects that. As to whether other agencies can do things better or more effectively, well yes ... but monastic groups do what they do.

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
The prayers of nuns and monks in religious orders are very formalised, aren’t they, and I wonder why they think that’s what their God wants?

This is a huge overgeneralization, I think. In my experience, the prayers of nuns and monks in religious orders are a healthy mix of "formalized" prayer and very "informal" prayer. Indeed, and again in my experience, the goal of those in these communities is to make prayer of every aspect of life, whether one is engaged in liturgical prayer in community, in growing and preparing food for others to eat, in solitary study, or simply in being in the presence of another.

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

Nuns and monks do the Divine Office, which are psalms chanted (or spoken) together, at certain times of the day - that is their 'formal' prayer.

Other than that, their prayer is incredibly varied, and they sometimes lead workshops to help people pray more creatviely and find individual ways of praying. One nun has written a book on praying with colours. Often nuns and monks pray with no words - they aim to develop a communication with God that transcends words. Silence is a big part of their prayer. And they often see their work as a prayer. Prayer infuses everything. SusanDoris, if you are curious to know more, there are some excellent books out there on monastic life and prayer and love. The Carthusian books are particularly good, such as Interior Prayer and Way of Silent Love. Monastic life is actually pretty hard to explain unless you experience it.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

I have met plenty of monastic people, in the Middle East, Haiti ... who managed to channel the energy and inspiration they receive through prayer into working towards peace and reconciliation in very difficult situations. They literally saved lives. I am very impressed by their work, and I am convinced that their prayer helped them to do these very real and important things.

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

Also, thinking about how to word this - I don't think nuns and monks go about their prayer because they think God wants a particular type of prayer. It really isn't like that at all. They pray because they love God and want to worship him and communicate with him and be in his presence. The Divine Office is part of the church tradition - it's a way of connecting with Christians all around the world who are also praying it.

SusanDoris, I think your understanding of monastics is quite different from the reality - you seem to be thinking they are worrying about what kind of prayer God wants, or whether their way of life is more useful than people going into space. It's not about proving themselves or competing or trying to win heaven points or have the best kind of prayer or anything like that. That sort of thinking is very alien to monastic life. Very alien to me too, which is why I'm finding it hard to explain - I think the best way for you to get a sense of it would be to visit a monastery - stay there for a few days, talk to the nuns/monks, experience the silence. Monastic life is about humility, loving and respecting everyone, serving God quietly. It's a struggle, because nuns and monks are human and it's hard living in a community of very different people, but the aim is humility and service and loving God and knowing God in a deeper way.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

Susan Doris I puzzle about you. You say you do not believe, you are an atheist, you think science has the answers to everything. Yet you worry over bones that, according to your sitzimleben, ought to be completely irrelevant. And you argue about these on a website where most people have a completely different world view from the one that you adamantly self-proclaim.

Why?

Monks and nuns function according to a view of life, the universe and everything that you insist you do not share. You are open about the fact that you say you don't understand them. To understand them, would involve adopting a view of life, the universe and everything that you clearly determined you don't want anything to do with.

It is both impossible and unreasonable to evaluate them according to your view of life, the universe and everything rather than according to theirs.

You can say 'from my perspective, they are wasting their lives'. However, the corollary is that you must accept that they are equally entitled to say (though they would probably put it more charitably) that according to their perspective, you are wasting yours. You would doubtless say, 'no, this is different because from my perspective, I am modern, rational and right, whereas they are benighted, backward and wrong'. However, this depends on perspective, opinion. Self-evidently, they wouldn't agree with you.

So once again, why get into an argument on this? What is it about the issue that bugs you?

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

I have respect for anyone wanting to pursue a deeper relationship with Divine Influence by joining a monastery or convent . Or more to the point, respect for the reason or motivation that leads them towards this path.

Calling it self-indulgent is an easy criticism to make, and there have been good points made above to counter such criticism.
Comparing it in my mind to the indulgent living an average modern lifestyle makes me wonder which is the most indulgent, or how we even go about quantifying the whole concept of indulgent living.
AIUI there are different levels of austerity to different Orders. It could be said that the Orders which enjoy all the trappings of modern living make themselves an easier target for critics.

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:

Raptor Eye
The point about being ‘called by God’ to take up a role as a monk or a nun does of course raise my scepticcal antennae!! It is their own, human, very personal choice, but however the choice is made, what they do, and how and why remain interesting questions I think. I have no reason to suppose that the motivation for the choice is other than a genuine desire to do good, and I take your point about not doing it to set themselves apart. In my opinion, the person’s genetic make up, plus nature/nurture, is what makes them decide, not any ‘call’ from God

It is their personal choice to accept God's calling into service in this way. I disagree that it is to do with who they are in terms of genetic make-up and nature/nurture. It is not something they dream up for themselves as they would naturally fit into that lifestyle, quite the opposite from those I've spoken to. Many fight God's calling for a long time before they give in to it.

It takes years to allow and co-operate with God as they are continually shaped into it. They grow in faith and spirituality, which spills the love of God out into the community around them, so that the place becomes a centre of goodness, a place where God's presence is tangible.

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

Susan Doris writes:

quote:
With all its problems, both natural and political, the’western’ world provides the security and support in which religious orders can function well. *snip*

I fear that my eyebrows raised on this one-- there are many historical periods where the monasteries have been centres of safety and learning during extended periods of civil strife and societal dislocation. Indeed, for folk of no religion, this has long been identified as the most beneficial of monastic activities.

I do not know about the UK, but religious activity is a charitable activity under the (Canadian) Income Tax Act, and so donations to monasteries would be eligible for an income tax receipt (the sum is deducted from one's taxable income and often there can be a rebate or refund of the tax paid). Aside from a very few houses which received public endowments from France before 1763, none have received any public support.

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I agree! However, do you think there is any degree of selfishness involved?
I have an idea or two on this, but will wait for a while before posting.

I think this is the sort of thing that happens when a selfish person tries to live in community: Soliloquy of the Spanish Cloister.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
I have respect for anyone wanting to pursue a deeper relationship with Divine Influence by joining a monastery or convent . Or more to the point, respect for the reason or motivation that leads them towards this path.

Calling it self-indulgent is an easy criticism to make, and there have been good points made above to counter such criticism.
Comparing it in my mind to the indulgent living an average modern lifestyle makes me wonder which is the most indulgent, or how we even go about quantifying the whole concept of indulgent living.

And it could be said that in many respects Christianity is a 'self-indulgent' religion anyway. Monastics aren't the only Christians expected to devote a considerable amount of time to their own souls, their own theological education, their own salvation, their own religious destiny, etc. Many of us attend churches which expect us to manage most of this on our own.

Moreover, living in a monastery or convent involves conforming oneself to the standards of a 'Christian community' 24/7, so how is it more self-indulgent than going to church on Sunday mornings and doing your own thing the rest of the week?

Many Westerners who identify as Christians on census forms can't even tolerate 'Christian community' on Sunday mornings. Most of us want to do faith our way - alone. There may be perfectly good reasons for this, but it could certainly be presented as a form of self-indulgence.

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :

All of what I write is obviously with the added caveat that Susan Doris will think a lot of it silly and the people stupid for believing the fairytale she calls 'God', but with that in mind let me add something.

The conversation has been circling around whether or not religious orders are selfish. Perhaps in the past it could have been said to have been the case - you got medical care (of a sort), you got a roof over your head, you ate reasonably well - but the question of whether people entered orders with the wrong motives or not seems to me to be an eternal one that doesn't necessarily follow through into the objectives of any given order. It would be a little akin to saying that politicians are all defunct and should be allowed to die out because of a few corrupt ones who are doing it solely to line their own pockets.

If we take the Dominicans that have been mentioned, they initially worked at ridding the church of the gnostic heresies. They weren't particularly good at this it must be said, but perhaps things would have been worse without them, it is (as with many orders) hard to quantify. Later they experienced a revival of sorts in the nineteenth century, mainly due to their record on the protection and development of human rights as a result of the exploitation and cruel treatment of natives they witnessed in colonies.

Like other orders today it could be argued that they have lost a focus. Some of this is due to the fact that their work is done. This is an important point, because some orders only exist for a particular role and once that role is complete they either naturally fold or they deliberately shut themselves down. There are many orders in the past and even in the present who essentially work towards their own extinction. I'm not sure I can call this a selfish enterprise.

Looking at orders generally, very few orders actually only involve themselves in the activity of constant prayer. Most of them have some kind of work - either of an academic or theological nature (some are involved in the area of the advancement of scientific knowledge, so not necessarily always 'humanities)'or as employees in the world contributing to society as a whole. Part of their lifestyle is to only take what they need and generally speaking, almost all orders follow a path of both charity and poverty. For those that are involved in constant contemplation, they are praying for the world believing that it shall make a difference. They feel drawn to doing this act full time and in a very focused way because they believe that prayer does make a difference. To say that this is in some sense a selfish act seems rather difficult when you consider what it is that they give up, but the world today believes all sorts of strange things about orders and perpetuates various myths, partly because they don't understand it but largely because they have never taken the time to talk to any of them.

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

Well, I'm a member of a dispersed neo-monastic community (Northumbria Community) and use its four daily offices. A number of neo-monastic communities have introduced (re-introduced) daily offices. Here are the guidelines I work to.

The two aspects of the value of daily offices which I relate to most strongly are that they provide a regular rhythm of prayer and act as an antidote to the activity-based "noisiness" of my life.

There is some self-selection in this. Like a lot of Protestants, I've spent a lot of my life as an activist, been busy doing stuff. About 20 years ago (following a minor heart attack), I realised that the activist lifestyle was getting in the way of my ability to reflect, take stock, contemplate. That realisation acted as a spur to find means of reflection and contemplation; I felt such steps would be good for all aspects of my health (mental, physical, spiritual, the way they all connected). I wasn't sure at the time that it would help me to live longer, but I hoped ..

So what started essentially as self-interested protection has in practice turned out to be very helpful in all sorts of ways, particularly in terms of how I relate to others. I don't claim it would be helpful for all; it's certainly been very good for me.

[ 13. November 2015, 09:54: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on :

Are we talking about all monastic orders, or only contemplatives*?

Plenty of monastic orders spend significant amounts of their time doing practical good for the people around them.

If you’ve never seen it, the French film “Des hommes et des dieux” (Of men and gods) is a masterpiece. It is based on the true story of eight French Catholic monks living in Tibérine, Algeria during the civil war in the 1990s. Six of them were kidnapped and presumably murdered, although it has never been entirely clear who killed them, whether the Islamists or the Algerian government. The bodies have never been found. Two survived, one of whom has since died of old age.

Several times the brothers are seen debating whether they should leave and go back to safety in France. They eventually decide that the servant is not above his master and they cannot abandon the Algerian people. One of the brothers is a trained doctor, who provides free medical care to the village where they live. He treats anyone who turns up no questions asked, including Islamist fighters (this is one reason why the Algerian government is suspected of collusion in the murder). They hand out food and clothes. They help the illiterate fill in official paperwork and write letters. The kidnap of these men was a horrific tragedy. They had done nothing but good for the community where they lived.

*Not that I think there’s necessarily no value in being a contemplative, FWIW. But there does seem to me to be an implicit assumption that monastic = contemplative.

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

That's a good point. I've learned that restoring the balance between activist and contemplative behaviour is good for both aspects. And I agree entirely that many of the traditional monastic orders are by no means lacking in activism.

It's a mistake to assume that monasticism = withdrawal from the world into a lifetime of contemplation.

Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :

Many thanks for all the new posts. I was going to try to contain the points in one response, but they are all so interesting that that won't work. Fortunately, I have plenty of free time today and the weekend, so I'll get started asap!

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
There is some self-selection in this. Like a lot of Protestants, I've spent a lot of my life as an activist, been busy doing stuff. About 20 years ago (following a minor heart attack), I realised that the activist lifestyle was getting in the way of my ability to reflect, take stock, contemplate. That realisation acted as a spur to find means of reflection and contemplation; I felt such steps would be good for all aspects of my health (mental, physical, spiritual, the way they all connected). I wasn't sure at the time that it would help me to live longer, but I hoped ..

So what started essentially as self-interested protection has in practice turned out to be very helpful in all sorts of ways, particularly in terms of how I relate to others. I don't claim it would be helpful for all; it's certainly been very good for me.

This makes a lot of sense to me, and something I've realised is that one's life doesn't always have to be one thing. There may be a time in one's life for activism and a time for contemplation. It's not necessarily God's will that everyone does 'active' things for the entire of their lives. Nor that everyone constantly combines the two. There is a place for both, but that doesn't mean that everyone must be embodying both all the time.

There is such a vast variety of people in the world - God makes everyone different and we all glorify him in our own way. Some may combine the contemplative and active throughout their life. Some may just do one of these throughout their life. Some may have a period of doing one and then a period of doing the other. And all of those possibilities are okay. God can use people for good in all sorts of ways that don't necessarily fit our idea of the ideal Christian life.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
That's a good point. I've learned that restoring the balance between activist and contemplative behaviour is good for both aspects.

This is so very true in all walks of life.

99% of teachers lack time for this sort of balance. Simply thinking about the work and considering what works well takes time. They have precious little, despite the holidays.

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
It's a mistake to assume that monasticism = withdrawal from the world into a lifetime of contemplation.

Yes, and I don't think that is the case even for enclosed orders. I say 'enclosed' rather than 'contemplative' because I've found the monastics who are not enclosed sometimes dislike the enclosed monastics being called contemplatives, because it suggests the non-enclosed are not contemplative, when they see themselves as contemplative too.

Enclosed orders may not go out physically into the world, but they are generally giving rest and hospitality to people who come to visit. There is a deep peace in enclosed orders and people seek this out, and it helps them in their faith. The contemplation of the monastics is essential for fostering that peace. And many people really appreciate the prayer - they bring their prayer petitions to the monastics to be prayed for.

And while enclosed monastics spend time in contemplation, they are not sitting contemplating all day long - they are welcoming visitors, building relationships with the community, and also doing practical things throughout the day - from making meals for the community and the guests, to cleaning the chapel and the guest rooms, and often paid work such as packaging altar breads to send to places that need it, as a way of earning money, and also sometime sending them free to places in the world who can't afford it.

Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :

Fineline
*sigh*I had transferred this from doc to edit area, did something accidentally and it disappeared. Lucky most of it is still here in doc.
Thank you for your interesting thoughts and commentss. I think I'll combine them and respond in one post.

quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
I think any vocation where you're following God sincerely and praying humbly should help you grow and develop in love and the ability to look beyond yourself and reach out to others.

That certainly motivates many. Obviously non-believers can reach out to others equally well, although they might well, if asked, say that it is simply a right and natural thing for humans to do.

quote:
SusanDoris, I appreciate you asking the questions about monastic life. You are voicing what a lot of people think, but many are afraid to say, for fear of offending, but I like it when people ask, because then it becomes an open discussion.

Yes, and that’s why the SofF is a good thing and where I appreciate the opportunities to discuss such subjects. I don’t know any place quite like it, or a discussion group where such topics are included !

quote:
Nuns and monks do the Divine Office, which are psalms chanted (or spoken) together, at certain times of the day - that is their 'formal' prayer.

We humans have evolved to function better if we have a routine of things to do which leaves the mind plenty of time to think and be alert for unexpected emergencies. As I mentioned earlier, I wish the humanists had something similar to psalms to sing in harmony.

quote:
Other than that, their prayer is incredibly varied, and they sometimes lead workshops to help people pray more creatviely and find individual ways of praying. One nun has written a book on praying with colours. Often nuns and monks pray with no words - they aim to develop a communication with God that transcends words.

What is it I wonder that convinces them there is God with which to communicate, when so many others believe in different gods or none at all? That question doesn’t apply here, though, as this topic is much more about religious orders themselves and I’m staying away from the question of God’s existence!!

quote:
Silence is a big part of their prayer. And they often see their work as a prayer. Prayer infuses everything. SusanDoris, if you are curious to know more, there are some excellent books out there on monastic life and prayer and love. The Carthusian books are particularly good, such as Interior Prayer and Way of Silent Love.

Thank you for the titles. I would love to be able to borrow them from the Library and scan through them, but can’t do that of course. You just can’t do a quick browse with audio books.

quote:
Monastic life is actually pretty hard to explain unless you experience it.

Actually, I think it would be very interesting to stay in such a place for a few days, especially if there were a couple of nuns or monks who would enjoy a challenge – very courteously put of course – from me! [Smile]

The trouble is of course that I can’t be independent in such circumstances and need guiding most of the time.
You mention humility – I know what you mean, but too much humility is not a good idea in my opinion. Respect, certainly, but humility is a separate consideration.

Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
So, what kind of prayers might their God prefer, SusanDoris?

Ah, well, I have to admit that I have no idea!

quote:
Why might he/she prefer less formalised ones?

The point is about a particular calling and way of life and the pattern/model of prayer reflects that. As to whether other agencies can do things better or more effectively, well yes ... but monastic groups do what they do.

Yes - and obviously fulfil a need, but I venture to say that if the number of applicants for such roles does not continue to decline,* perhaps it would suggest that indoctrination of the younger generations has too much of a hold.

*I do not know the statistics for this.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:

You mention humility – I know what you mean, but too much humility is not a good idea in my opinion. Respect, certainly, but humility is a separate consideration.

Interesting point SusanDoris.

Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :

Nick tamen

Thank you. As a child, I was given the idea that I should do everything as if God could observe, but am glad I did not spend too much time concerning myself about it!

Le Roc
I would agree that the monastic people you refer to focused their energy to help them achieve their objectives. Naturally, I would interpret the source of their energy differently.

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
What is it I wonder that convinces them there is God with which to communicate, when so many others believe in different gods or none at all? That question doesn’t apply here, though, as this topic is much more about religious orders themselves and I’m staying away from the question of God’s existence!!

Heh, yes, that is a much broader question about people of faith in general, so not specific to monastic life! And may well be a different answer from each person you ask anyway.

quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Thank you for the titles. I would love to be able to borrow them from the Library and scan through them, but can’t do that of course. You just can’t do a quick browse with audio books.

Well, those types of books don't really lend themselves to a 'quick browse' anyway. I've found monastic life isn't the kind of thing that can be easily summarised into bullet points. So you'd be reading them - not sure if they are on audiobook or if you'd have to get someone to read them to you. You could just read the first couple chapters to get a sense of them though - and they are pretty short books.

quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Actually, I think it would be very interesting to stay in such a place for a few days, especially if there were a couple of nuns or monks who would enjoy a challenge – very courteously put of course – from me! The trouble is of course that I can’t be independent in such circumstances and need guiding most of the time.

I imagine you'd find it interesting, if you could find a way to travel to a monastery or convent. They tend to be pretty accommodating. I stayed at a convent where a young blind woman often came to visit and talk to the nuns. Or maybe you could email a convent to ask questions. Or read their websites - they often have a FAQ section, and sections that tells you about the routine of the nuns/monks and why they do what they do. For me, the only way to really get a sense of monastic life, and why the monastics do what they do, has been to talk to them, to read their websites, their books, etc.

Another really interesting book - if you're up for reading an entire book (or even a few chapters) - is New Habits by Isobel Losada. The author went to visit various women who'd become Anglican nuns fairly recently, and interviewed them. So there are chapters from a whole variety of different nuns, from very different backgrounds, and they talk honestly about what motivated them to become nuns, the struggles they've had, the reactions of friends and family. It may well answer some of your questions.

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Nick tamen

Thank you. As a child, I was given the idea that I should do everything as if God could observe, but am glad I did not spend too much time concerning myself about it!

I don't think many monastics would understand it that way at all, though. It's not about God observing all that you do—which for too many children (and too many adults) typically entails the suggestion of not doing anything that will get you in trouble, because God is watching.

Monastics would, I think, see it more as an awareness of the presence of God in all circumstances, and of looking for the presence of God in all circumstances. It's not about not getting in trouble at all. It's about growing in relationship with the divine and living an authentically human life.*

* And I don't think any monastic worth his or her salt would suggest that the monastic life is the only way to live an authentically human life. They would, I think, say it is the way for them personally to do so.

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
You mention humility – I know what you mean, but too much humility is not a good idea in my opinion. Respect, certainly, but humility is a separate consideration.

You say you know what I mean, but how can you be sure? You don't know me, and I find different people have very different understandings of humility.

You were talking as if nuns were competitive, needing to prove themselves the best. To me, the opposite of this is humility - being secure in who they are, not needing to prove themselves to anyone or be better than anyone. To have their security in God, rather than in others' opinions, or needing to achieve worldly status. To me that is a far happier and freer way of being.

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
I don't think many monastics would understand it that way at all, though. It's not about God observing all that you do—which for too many children (and too many adults) typically entails the suggestion of not doing anything that will get you in trouble, because God is watching.

Monastics would, I think, see it more as an awareness of the presence of God in all circumstances, and of looking for the presence of God in all circumstances. It's not about not getting in trouble at all. It's about growing in relationship with the divine and living an authentically human life.*

* And I don't think any monastic worth his or her salt would suggest that the monastic life is the only way to live an authentically human life. They would, I think, say it is the way for them personally to do so.

Yes. All of this - this is what I observe when I spend time in convents and talking to nuns. It's not a 'God is watching you' mindset, but a mindset of wanting to be in God's presence. Valuing the time focused on God, knowing God, loving God, experiencing his love. God is not seen as the enemy - he's your deepest, closest friend, and it's a privilege to in his presence. Gosh, if faith were about God as a big brother figure watching you to make sure you behave yourself, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be a Christian, let alone be pursuing a monastic vocation!

Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Susan Doris I puzzle about you. You say you do not believe, you are an atheist, you think science has the answers to everything. Yet you worry over bones that, according to your sitzimleben, ought to be completely irrelevant. And you argue about these on a website where most people have a completely different world view from the one that you adamantly self-proclaim.

Why?

First, I do not believe that Science has the answer to everything; there are innumerable don’t knows which provide a never-ending source for research and, one hopes, greater increase in reliable, factual knowledge. I do not ‘worry over bones’, especially at my age, and in certain knowledge that, if I did, the only person who might suffer in however small a way from doing so would be me!! I googled that sitzimleben phrase, but don’t think I quite understand it!
I’m not sure either whatis irrelevant. The more one knows about how people think and feel and choose to run their lives, the more interestinglife is.

I do not know whether I would have joined discussion forums if I had retained reading vision – unlikely, I think, because, although I would certainly have bought a computer, I would be taking part in a range of other activities.

quote:
Monks and nuns function according to a view of life, the universe and everything that you insist you do not share. You are open about the fact that you say you don't understand them. To understand them, would involve adopting a view of life, the universe and everything that you clearly determined you don't want anything to do with.

But, in a way, being interested in something I certainly would not choose to do myself all adds to how interesting life, the universe and everything are.

A week or so ago, I spent an hour with a Psycho-Therapist. This had been recommended as it might be helpful in recovering from being knocked down last year. I was practically certain that she would not be able to think of anything I hadn’t thought of myself, but unless I went, I’d never be quite sure, would I? I am always interested in learning new things. At the end I asked her if she thought I needed any more counselling. Her answer was immediate with no reservations. ‘Oh, no,’ she said, ‘I can see you’ve thought it through and are a very determined lady!’ Even if at some later date I find myself remembering the actual impact plus the subsequent 40 minutes, it will not cause me any concern.

quote:
It is both impossible and unreasonable to evaluate them according to your view of life, the universe and everything rather than according to theirs.

You can say 'from my perspective, they are wasting their lives'. However, the corollary is that you must accept that they are equally entitled to say (though they would probably put it more charitably) that according to their perspective, you are wasting yours.

That sounds very fair; I would not disagree with that.

quote:
You would doubtless say, 'no, this is different because from my perspective, I am modern, rational and right, whereas they are benighted, backward and wrong'. However, this depends on perspective, opinion. Self-evidently, they wouldn't agree with you.

I would not in discussion call them either 'benighted' or 'wrong' but if we had agreed to find out more about each other's point of view, I would ask why and how and expect to be similarly challenged. .But I hope very much we would both have benefited from the conversation.

quote:
So once again, why get into an argument on this? What is it about the issue
that bugs you?

Nothing about it 'bugs me'. I was thinking about the subject and thought it might be of interest here.

[ 13. November 2015, 15:46: Message edited by: SusanDoris ]

Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :

quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
I have respect for anyone wanting to pursue a deeper relationship with Divine Influence by joining a monastery or convent . Or more to the point, respect for the reason or motivation that leads them towards this path.

Calling it self-indulgent is an easy criticism to make, and there have been good points made above to counter such criticism.
Comparing it in my mind to the indulgent living an average modern lifestyle makes me wonder which is the most indulgent, or how we even go about quantifying the whole concept of indulgent living.
AIUI there are different levels of austerity to different Orders. It could be said that the Orders which enjoy all the trappings of modern living make themselves an easier target for critics.

Thank you. In some ways, I suppose, to make the choice today to become a monk or a nun could be considered more difficult because of the ease of access to many detractin and opposing views.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

I don't think it's the presence of detracting or opposing views so much- if you want to look at a time when, in England and among Anglicans at least, they were an obstacle, go back 150 years to a time when monks and nuns were seen by many as a popish fifth column.

Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :

quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
All of what I write is obviously with the added caveat that Susan Doris will think a lot of it silly and the people stupid for believing the fairytale she calls 'God', but with that in mind let me add something.

I can absolutely assure you that I do not think of believers as either silly or stupid. We are all at every stage in our lives the result of our nature, nurture, environment, education and our use of our senses to learn about the world.

quote:
The conversation has been circling around whether or not religious orders are selfish. Perhaps in the past it could have been said to have been the case - you got medical care (of a sort), you got a roof over your head, you ate reasonably well - but the question of whether people entered orders with the wrong motives or not seems to me to be an eternal one that doesn't necessarily follow through into the objectives of any given order. It would be a little akin to saying that politicians are all defunct and should be allowed to die out because of a few corrupt ones who are doing it solely to line their own pockets.

No, I don't think that works since however strong or weak they are, politicians are not working for, or because of, an invisible God.

quote:
Like other orders today it could be argued that they have lost a focus. Some of this is due to the fact that their work is done. This is an important point, because some orders only exist for a particular role and once that role is complete they either naturally fold or they deliberately shut themselves down. There are many orders in the past and even in the present who essentially work towards their own extinction. I'm not sure I can call this a selfish enterprise.

Looking at orders generally, very few orders actually only involve themselves in the activity of constant prayer. Most of them have some kind of work - either of an academic or theological nature (some are involved in the area of the advancement of scientific knowledge, so not necessarily always 'humanities)'or as employees in the world contributing to society as a whole. Part of their lifestyle is to only take what they need and generally speaking, almost all orders follow a path of both charity and poverty. For those that are involved in constant contemplation, they are praying for the world believing that it shall make a difference. They feel drawn to doing this act full time and in a very focused way because they believe that prayer does make a difference. To say that this is in some sense a selfish act seems rather difficult when you consider what it is that they give up, but the world today believes all sorts of strange things about orders and perpetuates various myths, partly because they don't understand it but largely because they have never taken the time to talk to any of them.

Thank you very much - that was most interesting.

Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :

[

quote:
raptor Eye:
They grow in faith and spirituality,
...

Thank you. An interesting assertion. Is there any way anyone could recognise the 'growth 'in spirituality'? It seems to me that one would have to take the pperson's word for that.

Augustine the Aleut
Thank you. The history of religious orders is too much to consider here, I think! I was thinking of the present day, when the UK is a country where I can walk around without having to think of imminent danger.

Adiodatus
Thank you for the link. I’ll go back to that later.

SvitlanaV2
Very interesting, as always.

Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on :

Note - I can only speak with any authority on Anglican religious orders, not RC ones.

SusanDoris, you mention a lack of decline in applicants to monastic orders equalling a degree of indoctrination. Regarding Anglican orders at least, this is assuredly not true since many Anglicans (at least in the UK - not so much in developing areas of the Communion) are not aware that Anglican monastics exist, and there is little to no promotion of Anglican religious life within the church or from vocations people, despite both ++Rowan and ++Justin being very keen on monastics. Out of all the Anglican orders, the ones that have a healthy rate of new members are the most enclosed ones - and these are the orders most Anglicans are least likely to know about (the nuns at the Royal Wedding were from the Community of the Sisters of the Church, an apostolic/'active' order for example). CSJD (the Call the Midwife nuns) and other nursing/teaching orders are the ones who struggle since their roles have vanished.

As others have said, the type of monastic roles around vary - when the very first Anglican orders (as Albertus says, these were viewed with deep suspicion by the church establishment and many lay people) were established, they were all apostolic since enclosed orders were seen as 'too Catholic' and they were not even allowed to take life vows until the 20th century. Nowadays, enclosed orders are growing much faster than apostolic ones, and also mixed-gender orders regardless of apostolic/enclosed status.

I would recommend the New Habits book although even in the 20 years or so since publishing, things have changed - not so much as to be unrecognisable (Sister Judith is still at SLG radiating holiness), but new developments have happened (eg Mucknell Abbey, the nuns in residence at Cuddesdon) and some orders have shifted focus slightly. Certainly if you wanted to visit a community (or more than one), your vision impairment wouldn't be a problem since many communities have elderly members with similar problems! I know of at least one Anglican order with an accessible building too. I would be happy to help if you wanted to visit one - I know Fineline has visited some RC orders so would be able to help there too.

Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on :

Sorry for the double post, but it's worth reinforcing - I have an aunt (great-aunt really) who is a sister with an Anglican order (who have a 'mixed' life of active work and contemplation). If it wasn't for her, like many Anglicans I probably would never have heard of Anglican religious orders even existing until Call the Midwife - even then, many assumed they were RC nuns.

Also we have spoken rather a lot about nuns and not so much about monks, who are even more invisible especially in the Anglican church - there are far fewer of them and that reflects historic patterns of the religious life being more attractive to more women, but particular orders are doing very well and there are now even Anglican Cistercian monks. I do think that mixed-gender orders is a way forward for many orders, eg the First Order Franciscans.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

I met a Lutheran nun once. My first reaction: I didn't know you existed!

Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on :

Ah yes - I had indeed forgotten about Lutheran religious, although that is more down to Lutheranism having barely any presence in the UK at all. There are also Methodist deaconesses who are effectively nuns.

The Sisters of Jesus Way on Merseyside are evangelical Anglican nuns.

Posted by Truman White (# 17290) on :

Monastic tradition is a depository of centuries of wisdom on how to live life well. If you want a decent introduction to what that's all about, try reading some stuff from Worth Abbey.

It's a place people with no faith, as well as people with faith, can discover deeper richness in life.

Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :

Pomona

Most interesting posts - thank you very much. I would indeed be interested to know where there is a monastery or nunnery within reasonable visiting distance from me.(BH25( There is a good local company who do taxiing for longer journeys and I use them quite a lot.

There was, if I remember correctly, a series of radio programmes quite a time ago which were about finding out about becoming monks or nuns and talked about individuals' experiences staing there to see for themselves.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
There are also Methodist deaconesses who are effectively nuns.

'Deaconesses' don't exist any more in British Methodism. Both men and women can become 'deacons'. And they can be married - we used to have a married female deacon in my circuit.

http://methodistdiaconalorder.org.uk/index.php?page=history-of-the-mdo

Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :

There is also the status of being a consecrated virign https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consecrated_virgin

I am not sure if men can do this.

Posted by Knopwood (# 11596) on :

Nope. I looked into it as a teenager.

Posted by Truman White (# 17290) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Pomona

Most interesting posts - thank you very much. I would indeed be interested to know where there is a monastery or nunnery within reasonable visiting distance from me.(BH25( There is a good local company who do taxiing for longer journeys and I use them quite a lot.

There was, if I remember correctly, a series of radio programmes quite a time ago which were about finding out about becoming monks or nuns and talked about individuals' experiences staing there to see for themselves.

Might be thinking about
this.

Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on :

SusanDoris - I will PM you.

Svitlana - deaconesses and female deacons are actually entirely separate. Deaconesses are not ordained whereas female deacons are. Deaconesses may not be around in the UK anymore but are apparently present in the UMC. Several Anglican religious orders have their roots in the deaconess movement, both Anglican and Wesleyan.

As for consecrated virgins (and the order of consecrated widows), the Anglican church has the consecrated single life which is open to all genders and includes divorced people as well as widowed and never married people.

Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
There are also Methodist deaconesses who are effectively nuns.

'Deaconesses' don't exist any more in British Methodism. Both men and women can become 'deacons'. And they can be married - we used to have a married female deacon in my circuit.

http://methodistdiaconalorder.org.uk/index.php?page=history-of-the-mdo

YEs but this is to overlook the historical origins and international relationships. For instance Methodist Diaconal Order is part of Diakonia which also has as members Deaconesses de Reuilly which are now tending towards being a contemplative order. It also ignores the fact that the Protestant deaconness orders arose at the same time as many of the more Anglo-Catholic religious orders. The Deacons are more an order than the Methodist ministry, they were still sent up to the 2000s and have their own authority structure. If you want to see this compare with URC CRCWs and every difference will point towards Methodist Deacons being a religious order.

What is more celibacy is not a defining definition of a religious order. How for instance would you distinguish a Methodist Deacon from a Third Order Franciscan? Certainly, not by the fact they are married; third order Franciscans have been married since St Francis' days. From experience it is within my life time that Methodist Deacons have been.

Jengie

[ 17. November 2015, 08:32: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

I wasn't offering any judgement on the diaconal order, on the various ecumenical connections of modern day deacons, nor on the virtue or otherwise of vocations of lifelong celibacy. I was simply referring to the reality of modern British Methodism, which is that there is no official institutional support for a female-only (or male-only) ministry, nor for lifelong celibacy.

However, I'm pleased to learn that Methodist deacons exist in happy ecumenical and historical relationships with deacons and deaconesses of other types in other denominations. I wouldn't expect anything less from the British Methodist Church!

[ 18. November 2015, 21:55: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

The Uniting Church here retains the permanent diaconate for those who wish to be Ministers of the Word but not of the Table. Not many choose it, but an example occurred at school a few years ago. The Chaplain retired and was replaced by 2 men, one already ordained as a Minister of the Table, and one ordained a few months into his appointment as a Minister of the Word.

Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :

I have phoned a nunnery in the Portsmouth area and will do so again after Christmas in order to arrange a personal visit. I look forward to it and will of course report back afterwards

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

You kind of make it sound as if you're going there to do an inspection!

Is it a retreat centre? If you don't mind the question, what are you planning to do there? Is it one of those places where you spend your time in quiet meditation/reflection?

Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
You kind of make it sound as if you're going there to do an inspection!

No, it is something I have never done and therefore I shall find it interesting to have a conversation with, maybe, one or two who won't mind talking to an atheist!

quote:
Is it a retreat centre? If you don't mind the question, what are you planning to do there? Is it one of those places where you spend your time in quiet meditation/reflection?

Yes, it seems to be a centre for varying needs and lengths of stay, including retreats. I hope that I shall be able to ask the questions I posed at the start of this thread, but will make this clear to them beforehand. If they decline to answer, then I will ask if someone can just guide me around and tell me more about their routines. I shall then thank them very much for their time and info and return home. (The taxi company charge on a journey to, plus waiting time, and return home 'free' basis.)

[ 20. November 2015, 11:02: Message edited by: SusanDoris ]

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

I'm sure we all look forward to reading your thoughts on your visit: hope it goes well. I am sure that, if nothing else, you will find it interesting (and I doubt very much that any of the nuns would mind talking to an atheist!)

Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on :

It's a convent that holds retreats, rather than a retreat centre - and though like most convents they have Greater Silence and silent meals, it isn't a silent convent like Fairacres is.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
It seems to be a centre for varying needs and lengths of stay, including retreats. I hope that I shall be able to ask the questions I posed at the start of this thread, but will make this clear to them beforehand.

You might be able to find some of the answers to your questions on their website, or in their other publications.

Looking at our society, it seems that not everyone is going to enjoy a brilliant career, a wonderful marriage, a happy family life, and the usual accoutrements of success (home, car, etc.) The prospects are in fact declining, as the competition for good jobs is increasing, home ownership is stretching out of reach for many, marriages and cohabiting arrangements are fragile and our teenagers are often very unhappy.

This being the case, the monastic life doesn't seem so 'anachronistic' (your word) after all. You need to believe in God and feel a sense of vocation, of course, but I think it's one of several valid responses to our culture's expectation that we can and should try to 'have it all'.

Whether the monastic life is likely to continue for a long time to come, as you say in your OP, is an interesting question. Apparently the number of women choosing to become RC nuns in Britain is at a 25 year high.. There had been concerns that the monastic life was inexorably on its way out.

I think it's unfortunate that in Britain there aren't more options outside the RCC and the CofE, although I note that some communities (perhaps including the one you're going to) accept lay associates from other denominations.

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Yes, it seems to be a centre for varying needs and lengths of stay, including retreats. I hope that I shall be able to ask the questions I posed at the start of this thread, but will make this clear to them beforehand. If they decline to answer, then I will ask if someone can just guide me around and tell me more about their routines. I shall then thank them very much for their time and info and return home. (The taxi company charge on a journey to, plus waiting time, and return home 'free' basis.)

It seems a shame to make it a flying visit. Wouldn't it be possible to stay on a retreat for a few days? That would give you more of a chance to absorb the atmosphere.

Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
It seems a shame to make it a flying visit. Wouldn't it be possible to stay on a retreat for a few days? That would give you more of a chance to absorb the atmosphere.

I agree and wish I could do so, but unfortunately having only some peripheral vision is a problem! There are too many hazards in a place I am not familiar with.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Might be worth asking about it though. They may have experience of guests in a similar situation to yours, and be able to assist you.

Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on :

I would imagine they're very used to guests with additional needs staying - do ask them. They hold Deaf Church services and have guests with access needs a lot. I agree that you can't really get the real impression of a place in one day without an overnight stay - a few days is best.

Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :

Today I spoke to a sister at the Sisters of Bethany in Southsea and after a most pleasant conversation have arranged to visit early February. I have sent her a link to my website and to this topic. I think it will be most interesting.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Do report back to us afterwards- it'd be fascinating to read about your visit and your response to it.

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