Thread: We should not expect God's help with human problems Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.
To visit this thread, use this URL:
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=70;t=029580
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on
:
So said the Dalai Lama quote:
humans have created this problem, and now we are asking God to solve it. It is illogical. God would say, solve it yourself because you created it in the first place.
from dw.com ( German public radio/tv, in english).
It fits my experience. Are we selling the wrong idea when we tell people God will do little or big miracles, beyond feeling supported in what we do?
Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on
:
I think it rather misses the point of the Incarnation.
I do get frustrated when Christians, esp of a pentecostal persuasion, think that God solving problems happens via miracles/revival. If that was the case then we wouldn't need the Holy Spirit.
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
:
I no longer expect God's help with any problems - whether they have a human cause or not.
Lighting a candle and saying a prayer makes us feel better, it cocks a snoop at the darkness. But that is all.
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
:
Hasn't He helped enough?
Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on
:
Boogie - then what is the point of your God?
The purpose of prayer is to commune with God, to bring us closer to God and to be intimate with Them. In doing so we are more aware of the murmurings of the Holy Spirit which then causes change - and of course God does grant petitions too, but even without that prayer still changes things.
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Boogie - then what is the point of your God?
God is the creator and sustainer of all things. Nothing would exist without God.
God created/creates this universe as it is and allowed/allows life to evolve - which involves the necessity of competition and of death.
I am thankful for it all, despite the seemingly cruel design. But I don't ask God for anything - all is pre-given.
Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on
:
In the end, it is magical thinking to assume that God will sort out our problems. We cause issues, and expect that something (be it the divine, Dumbledore or a lottery win) will sort it all out for us. It won't.
That does not mean that God will not ever intervene. Contra Nick Cave, I do believe in an interventionalist God, but I don't think we should just assume that he will sort things out because we CBA. That is laziness. If he does intervene, it is because he chooses to, for whatever reasons that he may or may not reveal to us.
So in terms of the title, I would agree - we should not EXPECT God to intervene. But he might, and he might also expect us to do something about it. I think he cares rather less about our human problems than we sometimes think, in terms of getting them sorted out. So many of our problems are really at the level of "Please God find me a parking space". I don't understand why we would expect God to intervene just to make our lives easier, or why him not doing so is such a problem.
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Boogie - then what is the point of your God?
God is the creator and sustainer of all things. Nothing would exist without God.
God created/creates this universe as it is and allowed/allows life to evolve - which involves the necessity of competition and of death.
I am thankful for it all, despite the seemingly cruel design. But I don't ask God for anything - all is pre-given.
Boogie's statement is about where I come down to. I am also remembering the end scene of the 1970 movie Little Big Man, when Old Lodge Skins (played by Chief Dan George) decided that "today is a good day to die", and he thanks the Creator for his victories and defeats, for the blindness (caused by a bullet wound) which has allowed his to see further than his eyes would allow. I hope that some day I can come to expressing thanks for the nasty things of life. In the movie, Old Lodge Skins has seen his family killed and his tribe (Cheyenne) exterminated, yet is able to express faith.
Both of the examples are nonChristian, but how much disagreement, save for magical thinking, is there? Is the Holy Spirit only available to Christians?
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
:
AIUI the Dalai Lama, being a Buddhist, doesn't actually believe in a objective God anyway. Or have I misunderstood that?
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
:
Yes, it's interesting coming from a Buddhist, who tend to have a non-dualist view of reality, whereas the distinction of God/human is profoundly dualist. For him, it's a non-issue, I guess.
If you are a dualist, then there is something of an abyss in front of you, but then spiders cross those with ease.
Posted by HCH (# 14313) on
:
In any case, why make more work for God?
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on
:
Well, because we are invited to? "Give us this day our daily bread" and all that. I agree that it makes for a theologically messy situation, to have a God who can intervene, says he will at times intervene, is occasionally seen to intervene, and yet doesn't intervene at the times when we are certain he should. But that is the data I'm confronted with.
[ 18. November 2015, 15:41: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I no longer expect God's help with any problems - whether they have a human cause or not.
Lighting a candle and saying a prayer makes us feel better, it cocks a snoop at the darkness. But that is all.
Yes. Waste of time asking for help, miracles, guidance, etc. You have to get on with it by yourself, the intangible isn't going to sort it out for you.
The world has the air of something incredibly and intricately designed, and is a marvel, and I can believe that it may have been created by an intelligence. But it also has the air of something abandoned, something left to run by itself.
Posted by anteater (# 11435) on
:
TheDl quote is about God solving our problems.
The OP is about God helping.
So no yes seems a reasonable expectation.
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
:
As I've said before, I don't believe in a personal God. Prayer, if it has any role at all, is not about changing the mind of the deity.
Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on
:
quote:
Is the Holy Spirit only available to Christians?
ISTM that goodness comes from God, who *is* love, truth, justice. These things can't be derived from materialist presuppositions - they just are, consubstantial, co-eternal...
If then a non-Christian exhibits goodness, where does that come from? Some other God? I don't think so.
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Well, because we are invited to? "Give us this day our daily bread" and all that. I agree that it makes for a theologically messy situation, to have a God who can intervene, says he will at times intervene, is occasionally seen to intervene, and yet doesn't intervene at the times when we are certain he should. But that is the data I'm confronted with.
I'd go a bit beyond that part even in the Lord's prayer to "your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." That's a rather bold prayer, and as Lamb said, theologically messy. But it means something. Jesus is explicitly inviting us to pray that God's Kingdom would be done on earth as it is in heaven. And if we ever needed reminding of how far this earth currently is from the complete fulfillment of God's Kingdom, we had that this week.
So we pray because when we pray because prayer is the way that we participate in extending the Kingdom. Because when we pray for healing, for restoration, and --boldly-- for peace, we are joining our hearts with the heart of God. If we don't yet have complete healing, complete peace, complete restoration, it is not (IMHO) evidence that those things are not "God's will". It is evidence that the Kingdom is not complete. So we pray. We pray to extend God's Kingdom, and the stretch our hearts and our faith to align with God's will-- God's Kingdom.
Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
As I've said before, I don't believe in a personal God. Prayer, if it has any role at all, is not about changing the mind of the deity.
I do believe in a personal God, but I would agree that prayer is not about changing Gods mind. It is about engaging ourselves with God, and changing ourselves. Or something.
There are some examples in the Bible of people arguing with God (e.g. Abraham over Sodom), apparently changing Gods mind, but I think we need to see these is other ways. So it was about Abraham learning that God is merciful, God would not destroy Sodom if there were 5 God-fearing people found there. That is merciful, and Abraham needed to know that. That was the point of the "prayer".
Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
It fits my experience. Are we selling the wrong idea when we tell people God will do little or big miracles, beyond feeling supported in what we do?
I neither expect God to solve my problems, nor do I tell people that God will do miracles, large or small. I don't expect God to stop people from doing evil things, as they are given the free will to do them and must take personal responsibility for them.
I don't see God as a support to me in what I do, unless I am serving God in what I am doing.
I do expect and trust God to bring something good out of bad or confusing experiences when I pray for guidance and I am ready to co-operate with God's will. It's a kind of hanging on by the fingernails trust and hope and expectation, but God is faithful.
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
:
At our home group Monday night, I did a very bad job - continued here - of expressing my postmodern view that I am a story rattling inside my head and whilst not deconstructing all Biblical claims, especially New Testament ones, especially-especially the words of Jesus, fully creedal incarnate Word and Son of God by the Spirit; above all, they are human, literary expressions, of their time and culture, full of metaphor, carriers of meaning; hyperbole, exaggeration for effect. Immensely powerful, poetic, rhetorical - endeavouring to persuade, challenging, aspirational. And therefore very open to interpretation, to unique impact on each of us as individuals with our utterly different life stories and ways of thinking.
Apart from the blatantly obvious: be kind.
I don't, can't deny the Holy Spirit, but haven't the faintest idea how He operates, apart from yearning with us. As far as I'm concerned what I feel and think is me feeling and thinking. Affected by other narratives, certainly. Above all the New Testament. Above-above all Jesus. But I cannot relate to God making me feel or think anything directly. Intervening at all. 99.9% (and yes, I do have a STRONG 0.1% doubt that all I have felt and thought and experienced is just me rattling around in my head in the material world: I have my bag of personal miracles; 'coincidences').
Shortly after I thought of quantum tunnelling as an analogy. Energy appearing on the far side of a barrier just by existing on the near side. Dunno. Blended with the analogy of an armour piercing round working not by passing through but by transferring energy to the inside layer of the armour and that blasts further on with its own characteristics.
I'm looking for a way in which the Holy Spirit can make us faithful, courageous, kind, forgiving, encouraging-encouraged when we otherwise wouldn't be APART from by the narrative.
...
This morning, as I walked across Victoria Park in Leicester, much exercised by the cares of life; health, work, I MOST clearly had an inner voice say, "I am not a story" ...
Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on
:
It's the truth Martin: God is not a story, any more than you are, but stories emanate from both.
Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on
:
Raptors Eye when will you learn not to talk about truth to a post-modernist. It's just not a polite topic of conversation.
Jengie
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
:
ISTM that Christianity raises expectations of God to a higher level than many individuals seem able to manage. We live in a culture where expectations are often high anyway; so many of us want to live the dream but can't, and the failure of Christianity to help us with that project must compound the sense of disappointment.
Islam, so I'm told, is a more fatalistic religion, and also less individualistic. Perhaps that means there's less likelihood of Muslims feeling let down by God's apparent lack of 'help' in the way that many Christians and ex-Christians often do.
There's surely a deficiency somewhere, if not in the Christian religion itself, then in the way it's taught. But whichever it is, there's not much point in Christianity without a God who cares, is there? You've got 'Do unto others... etc' and a nice set of aesthetics. Which is all good, but it makes the crucifixion seem like overkill....
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I'd go a bit beyond that part even in the Lord's prayer to "your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." That's a rather bold prayer, and as Lamb said, theologically messy. But it means something. Jesus is explicitly inviting us to pray that God's Kingdom would be done on earth as it is in heaven. And if we ever needed reminding of how far this earth currently is from the complete fulfillment of God's Kingdom, we had that this week.
So we pray because when we pray because prayer is the way that we participate in extending the Kingdom.
This sounds lovely. But I think we're actually being invited to do something ourselves: be part of the team. Not expect God to really help, provide or anything.
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
I do expect and trust God to bring something good out of bad or confusing experiences when I pray for guidance and I am ready to co-operate with God's will. It's a kind of hanging on by the fingernails trust and hope and expectation, but God is faithful.
This works for the mild bad experiences. It is absolute shit when it's murder or rape. God is absolutely nowhere with that. There is no good that comes out of things like this, 'cepting very incidentally. Someone can be kind or gentle in the midst of your suffering the aftermath, but that is hardly God doing anything. It's people.
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
I don't see God as a support to me in what I do, unless I am serving God in what I am doing.
I am uncertain what you mean. Your very life shall be a prayer I think. Everything you do Trying to live properly amidst the terrible that is often the daily lived experience in this world. I would probably have died if I hadn't had the help to realize this.
Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on
:
I would say that we shouldn't expect God's help - if by that you mean something extraordinary. Even more so if you mean that God will do it all without us lifting a finger.
But, we should expect God's help if we're working towards His Kingdom. We should expect that as we start doing good that God would provide others to help with the burden. We should expect that as we struggle to work out the best thing to do that He will provide wise people to guide us.
Posted by Galloping Granny (# 13814) on
:
Somewhere I found a great cartoon that showed a young man (of our time) sitting on a park bench chatting with Jesus.
Young man: So why do you allow things like famine, war, suffering,disease, crime, homelessness, despair, etc exist in our world?
Jesus: Interesting that you should bring that up as I was about to ask you the exact same question.
GG
Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
But, we should expect God's help if we're working towards His Kingdom. We should expect that as we start doing good that God would provide others to help with the burden. We should expect that as we struggle to work out the best thing to do that He will provide wise people to guide us.
In theory, I would agree. But so often it is the people who are working towards His kingdom who are most alone, most unsure, most burdened, because they are fighting against the stream.
If you want to feel loved, supported, helped then the easiest thing is to conform to the world (the church world or the non-church world). Fighting for the kingdom is the last place to be if you feel you always need help and other people.
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Fighting for the kingdom is the last place to be if you feel you always need help and other people.
In other words stop being human?
We all need help and other people, all the time. Independence is an illusion.
Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on
:
I wouldn't phrase it quite like SC but I know what he means, even if I think it is a little harsh on the Church.
It means that the World (and often the Worldly Church) is fighting against the Kingdom, so those fighting for the Kingdom are naturally fighting against them (or the forces behind them). Is that a fair summation?
I would be interested to know what those who don't believe in a personal God make of those who do? Because 'God doesn't intervene' is the opposite of my experience, just perhaps not in the way people expect. I tried to not believe in a personal God but I could not. My experience of Jesus in the Incarnation totally goes against the idea of a non-interventionist God. God's intervention is crucial to belief in the Trinity.
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
I would be interested to know what those who don't believe in a personal God make of those who do?
My reaction is to change the subject, I never argue, there's no point.
If asked directly I explain my viewpoint as I do on here.
My friend said the other day "and God provided in a wonderful way" (which always means people provided, in my view - nothing drops out of the sky like manna!). I know a bloke who is constantly praying for provision - in RL and online - guess what? "God provided abundantly"! often just in time! Then a lot of 'what an amazing Lord we have' choruses in.
Of course people see his prayers and pleas and feel moved to help. God? No!
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on
:
... and then there are those of us who pray without letting others know about the issue (I do this about half the time, figuring if I ask I'll look like even more of a drama queen than I do already).
It doesn't seem to make a difference in prayer outcomes, as far as I can recall. And most of my prayers are for things that people just plain CAN'T provide, anyway.
I'm with whoever it was upthread who pointed out that the Incarnation is the biggest example of God intervening. Once he has done that, why should we not ask for help in less spectacular ways? He's nailed his colors to the mast.
Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on
:
Pomona - pretty much. It was in response to Alans comment, that those working for the Kingdom should expect Gods help. I accept the principle, but I am not sure I see that in practice, and I am not sure that I see that message in the Bible either.
If you are working towards the Kingdom then you are in opposition to those around you (I would take that as by definition - the kingdom is counter cultural, whatever your culture is). And that is not a place that you see Gods help and support.
More to the point, Jeremiah, for example, who was "working towards Gods kingdom" and being honest and faithful was put down a well and left there. I don't see much sign in that of Gods help for his problems - in fact, quite the opposite. That is not an isolated example either.
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on
:
He wasn't actually "left there"--Ebed-melech (sp?) came with a lot of guys and pulled him out, at the king's command.
Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on
:
I find Jeremiah an interesting, and thoroughly real (as in, this is actually how people are - rather than necessarily that everything written about him is modern biographically accurate), person. Lamentations is a wonderful book. It starts with an extended description of just how shit everything is, how everything had got as bad as it could possibly get ... and then got worse. It is an anguished, pain filled, accusation directed towards God. One of the most angry prayers recorded anywhere. "God you did all this! You destroyed everything!"
And, then Jeremiah has a sudden change of tone, he's suddenly, almost miraculously lifted from the pits of despair to an incredible declaration of faith, "Great is your faithfulness". What has he done, he has remembered who God is, what he knows about God brings him around to declare his faith. And, unlike the hymn, he didn't see new mercies each morning (exactly the opposite infact), but he knows God is merciful. That's the result of his previous experiences, the people who taught him, the people who had tested his faith before and allowed God to show his mercy, people who were not there when he most needed them, but they had already given him what he needed. Is that not an answer to his prayers?
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I'm with whoever it was upthread who pointed out that the Incarnation is the biggest example of God intervening. Once he has done that, why should we not ask for help in less spectacular ways? He's nailed his colors to the mast.
You and I have been around the circle on this one a few times. This is the worst sort of puzzle. I'm around to thinking that the day-to-day experiences of most people aren't really that important, regardless of suffering, loss of life etc. What may be important is how we live through these things, and how we treat each other. Do we see our sister and brother, the face of Jesus, in other people or not? In all of them? Our level of responsibility is greater than we imagine. It is frequently absolute shit to have to live a Christian life, it is not less burdensome, it is not about less suffering and more happiness.
From evil acts that cause suffering, I think it is like a disease. The person may live as well and faithfully as possible, but the evil leaves a scar. Which can open and close and bleed. God doesn't stop the wounds from happening any more than he rescued Jesus from execution or rescues today an overloaded refugee boat in the Mediterranean or Indian Ocean or the people pretending they were dead in the Bataclan in Paris. We mustn't delude ourselves about miracles or Godly intervention. We must take the responsibility. We've been shown the way to live.
Posted by Truman White (# 17290) on
:
I'm with Ponoma on the incarnation - God comes to sort out humanity's problems by becoming human, and inviting us to join him in his mission of repair, rejuvenation and redemption. I like the way Paul puts it - we're co-workers together with God.
Posted by Tortuf (# 3784) on
:
I no longer believe in God as a cosmic vending machine who can be cajoled into giving us what we want because we say the right words, have the correct set of beliefs, or donate money to a televangelist.
What I have found is a God who is there to steady me, help me to step away from my fears and face the world the way it is in the now. When I seek that I get all the help from God I need; not for an outcome, but for serenity.
When I attach to an outcome of my choice I find that God oftentimes has a different agenda.
Prayer for me, as wiser heads here have said, is about bringing myself closer to my connection with God. When I seek that my prayers tend to be answered.
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
But, we should expect God's help if we're working towards His Kingdom. We should expect that as we start doing good that God would provide others to help with the burden. We should expect that as we struggle to work out the best thing to do that He will provide wise people to guide us.
In theory, I would agree. But so often it is the people who are working towards His kingdom who are most alone, most unsure, most burdened, because they are fighting against the stream.
If you want to feel loved, supported, helped then the easiest thing is to conform to the world (the church world or the non-church world). Fighting for the kingdom is the last place to be if you feel you always need help and other people.
Yes.
But I'm reminded of Elijah, who similarly felt alone and abandoned when he was fighting for the Kingdom. God strengthened and encouraged him. And then reminded him that there were still 7000 who had not conformed to the easy path of aligning with evil (1Kings 19:18).
So, yes, when we are fighting for the Kingdom, we will feel alone. We will feel afraid. We will feel overwhelmed and overpowered. And it is at precisely that moment when we need to turn to our Lord and ask for his power, his strength-- and for his people.
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on
:
Define "fighting for the kingdom" please. Like "spreading the love", I don't know what it means unless the person defines it when they use it.
My associations to the phrase include: evangelicalism and getting people to turn into Christians, doing some good things in the world to help others, collecting money to further a ministry (which is another vague term that must be defined each time).
I find this language off-putting because of my association with bible-thumping, it sounds like war which is a metaphor and practice I abhor, and because it is really vague. I thought Jesus brought peace?
Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
I would be interested to know what those who don't believe in a personal God make of those who do?
My reaction is to change the subject, I never argue, there's no point.
If asked directly I explain my viewpoint as I do on here.
My friend said the other day "and God provided in a wonderful way" (which always means people provided, in my view - nothing drops out of the sky like manna!). I know a bloke who is constantly praying for provision - in RL and online - guess what? "God provided abundantly"! often just in time! Then a lot of 'what an amazing Lord we have' choruses in.
Of course people see his prayers and pleas and feel moved to help. God? No!
I would say that it is God working through people. Why is it necessary to assume God is not present in the situation? We do have an amazing Lord and there's nothing wrong in saying so. And as LC says, God often intervenes when nobody else other than the pray-er knows the situation.
Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Define "fighting for the kingdom" please. Like "spreading the love", I don't know what it means unless the person defines it when they use it.
My associations to the phrase include: evangelicalism and getting people to turn into Christians, doing some good things in the world to help others, collecting money to further a ministry (which is another vague term that must be defined each time).
I find this language off-putting because of my association with bible-thumping, it sounds like war which is a metaphor and practice I abhor, and because it is really vague. I thought Jesus brought peace?
I definitely don't mean that list of things! I don't know if you're familiar with Harry Potter, but I mean a kind of spiritual warfare I suppose but of a more Order of the Phoenix form - resistance rather than violence. To mean it would mean things like resisting capitalism and its evils, fighting for the rights of refugees and other vulnerable people, supporting disenfranchised people, working for peace and nonviolence, community living, etc etc.
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
We all need help and other people, all the time. Independence is an illusion.
I don't know what you're basing that on.
There are some people who are constantly in company with others, amounting to 24 hours a day (partners, friends, colleagues, family), and who can't cope with being by themselves for more than a few minutes without feeling "lonely". The rest of us seem to cope, get out of bed unaided, make decisions by ourselves, etc. We don't all need help and other people every single minute - that would be a really sad state of affairs.
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
We don't all need help and other people every single minute - that would be a really sad state of affairs.
And there are some of us that need regular solitude. People aren't all the same.
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
:
I didn't say we need company - I said we need help and other people, from the moment we wake up. Get up. Clean teeth. Who made the toothpaste/brush, who put the water in the tap? and on and on.
Our interdependence is never ending. If we think we are independent we forget all those people who help us all directly or indirectly.
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I'm with whoever it was upthread who pointed out that the Incarnation is the biggest example of God intervening. Once he has done that, why should we not ask for help in less spectacular ways? He's nailed his colors to the mast.
You and I have been around the circle on this one a few times. This is the worst sort of puzzle. I'm around to thinking that the day-to-day experiences of most people aren't really that important, regardless of suffering, loss of life etc. What may be important is how we live through these things, and how we treat each other. Do we see our sister and brother, the face of Jesus, in other people or not? In all of them? Our level of responsibility is greater than we imagine. It is frequently absolute shit to have to live a Christian life, it is not less burdensome, it is not about less suffering and more happiness.
From evil acts that cause suffering, I think it is like a disease. The person may live as well and faithfully as possible, but the evil leaves a scar. Which can open and close and bleed. God doesn't stop the wounds from happening any more than he rescued Jesus from execution or rescues today an overloaded refugee boat in the Mediterranean or Indian Ocean or the people pretending they were dead in the Bataclan in Paris. We mustn't delude ourselves about miracles or Godly intervention. We must take the responsibility. We've been shown the way to live.
We have been around this loop a few times, and I keep wondering if I'm missing your point or vice versa. Thus once more...
Here's what I'm wondering. Why in the world does it have to be an either/or? You say "We mustn't delude ourselves about miracles or Godly intervention. We must take the responsibility. We've been shown the way to live."
I don't know a single believer who sits on their hands while saying, "God will sort it out." The natural corollary to "God will sort it out" is "and I'd better start helping."
Most of that is due to the Holy Spirit, God in us doing what God's going to do. That's just the way we roll. You can't split up God and God's people, as if giving credit to one meant denying it to the other. Are the lungs somehow more or less necessary than the cardiovascular system?
And to bring down the tone of things with a Thump!, there's also the very obvious fact that, if I sit on my ass and say "let God deal with it, I've got popcorn to eat," I'm going to get the same reaction from him that I would have gotten from my mother if I'd said that about family housecleaning days. I mean, seriously? Past age 10 any decent excuse for a human being gets up and looks for a mop to help.
And so also with evil in this world.
[ 19. November 2015, 18:17: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on
:
... And then this.
quote:
I'm around to thinking that the day-to-day experiences of most people aren't really that important, regardless of suffering, loss of life etc. What may be important is how we live through these things, and how we treat each other. Do we see our sister and brother, the face of Jesus, in other people or not? In all of them? Our level of responsibility is greater than we imagine. It is frequently absolute shit to have to live a Christian life, it is not less burdensome, it is not about less suffering and more happiness.
Now I'm really confused. Of course daily sufferings matter, matter infinitely, whether they are our own or those of the people we care for. And yes, for just that reason living as a Christian can be absolute shit and burdensome, because Christianity will do two things: it will teach you to love your neighbors more and more, and simultaneously it will open your eyes to their suffering. Which puts you in a shit position, as you will feel that suffering right along with them (now that you love them), you will be driven to help them, and yet you will come smack up against your own human limits in how much you can do. Thus prayer. Even or especially of the swearing kind.
Of course Christianity is a shitty life, if you look at it from the angle of personal comfort. "Take up the cross and follow me," Christ said. "If only in this life we have hope, we are of all creatures most pitiable," Paul said. Basically it's "love God, love your neighbor, work your ass off to help your neighbor, and pray and grieve for what you can't help." It sucks. But a sucky life like that is still so much better than being the kind of blind asshole who sees and cares about nothing but his own 60 inch TV screen.
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I didn't say we need company - I said we need help and other people, from the moment we wake up. Get up. Clean teeth. Who made the toothpaste/brush, who put the water in the tap? and on and on.
Our interdependence is never ending. If we think we are independent we forget all those people who help us all directly or indirectly.
That's a by-product of life in the modern West. It's possible to be quite a bit more self-sufficient, if you don't mind the work involved.
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Define "fighting for the kingdom" please. Like "spreading the love", I don't know what it means unless the person defines it when they use it.
My associations to the phrase include: evangelicalism and getting people to turn into Christians, doing some good things in the world to help others, collecting money to further a ministry (which is another vague term that must be defined each time).
I find this language off-putting because of my association with bible-thumping, it sounds like war which is a metaphor and practice I abhor, and because it is really vague. I thought Jesus brought peace?
I think it is war-- war with the evil of this world-- human trafficking, child abuse, war, violence, genocide, racism. We are called to "take back territory from the enemy" (Matt. 16:18). But the weapons we use are not guns and bombs, but the "weapons of the Spirit" which I'm guessing look something like the fruits of the Spirit + spiritual disciplines. (If we used conventional weaponry that "making war on war" would be a bit ridiculous)
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I didn't say we need company - I said we need help and other people, from the moment we wake up. Get up. Clean teeth. Who made the toothpaste/brush, who put the water in the tap? and on and on.
Our interdependence is never ending. If we think we are independent we forget all those people who help us all directly or indirectly.
That's a by-product of life in the modern West. It's possible to be quite a bit more self-sufficient, if you don't mind the work involved.
Actually, I would say that the byproduct of life in the modern West is the illusion of self-sufficiency. People outside of the West seem far more aware of our inter-dependency, and are far more interested in communal good for that reason.
Posted by Ikkyu (# 15207) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
That's a by-product of life in the modern West. It's possible to be quite a bit more self-sufficient, if you don't mind the work involved.
Please share your recipe for home made microprocessors, keyboards , modems etc.
Well I guess, you can argue that you don't really need the internet.
What about home made antibiotics for when you pull your own teeth out instead of going to the dentist?
I hope you are very efficient at putting out fires with the water you draw from your own well or are you planning on calling the fire department for that?
I hope you can grow your own food without the use of fertilizers or pesticides.
If you are planning on raising animals for food
are you going to domesticate them yourself from their original wild state?
If not how "independent" are you?
[code]
[ 20. November 2015, 05:33: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
Independence is an inverse function of the proximity and number of people in your life. The greater those factors, the less independence is possible. The lesser, the greater the need for independence.
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ikkyu:
Please share your recipe for home made microprocessors, keyboards , modems etc.
Well I guess, you can argue that you don't really need the internet.
My niece is far more independent than me. She grows her own veg, fruit and fuel and shoots her own meat. Great, good for her, but she needs other people nearly as much as I do. Like you said - she's not doing without her ipad!
Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
This sounds lovely. But I think we're actually being invited to do something ourselves: be part of the team. Not expect God to really help, provide or anything.
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
I do expect and trust God to bring something good out of bad or confusing experiences when I pray for guidance and I am ready to co-operate with God's will. It's a kind of hanging on by the fingernails trust and hope and expectation, but God is faithful.
This works for the mild bad experiences. It is absolute shit when it's murder or rape. God is absolutely nowhere with that. There is no good that comes out of things like this, 'cepting very incidentally. Someone can be kind or gentle in the midst of your suffering the aftermath, but that is hardly God doing anything. It's people.
As per your earlier comment, it's people who are serving God, co-operating with God, who help to bring something good out of bad experiences. That takes nothing away from the desperate awfulness of the bad experience, it neither lessens it nor condones it.
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
I don't see God as a support to me in what I do, unless I am serving God in what I am doing.
I am uncertain what you mean. Your very life shall be a prayer I think. Everything you do Trying to live properly amidst the terrible that is often the daily lived experience in this world. I would probably have died if I hadn't had the help to realize this.
What I mean is that as long as our lives are a prayer in which we are serving God, as you suggest, then we can expect God's support - more than that, for God to be an enabler by bringing people together as necessary. In my experience, this happens.
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Independence is an inverse function of the proximity and number of people in your life. The greater those factors, the less independence is possible. The lesser, the greater the need for independence.
But again, independence is an illusion. If we have enough resources, we can nurture that illusion of independence, but it's still nothing more than an illusion. All of us are inter-related-- even the hermits living in the woods above my city are impacted by actions & choices of our residents in the city below.
In my experience, people in the developing world are far more aware of this reality than people in the West. Our relative wealth allows us to nurture this belief that being "off the grid" means we are independent. But we're not.
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Here's what I'm wondering. Why in the world does it have to be an either/or? You say "We mustn't delude ourselves about miracles or Godly intervention. We must take the responsibility. We've been shown the way to live."
I don't know a single believer who sits on their hands while saying, "God will sort it out." The natural corollary to "God will sort it out" is "and I'd better start helping."
Most of that is due to the Holy Spirit, God in us doing what God's going to do. That's just the way we roll. You can't split up God and God's people, as if giving credit to one meant denying it to the other. Are the lungs somehow more or less necessary than the cardiovascular system?
And to bring down the tone of things with a Thump!, there's also the very obvious fact that, if I sit on my ass and say "let God deal with it, I've got popcorn to eat," I'm going to get the same reaction from him that I would have gotten from my mother if I'd said that about family housecleaning days. I mean, seriously? Past age 10 any decent excuse for a human being gets up and looks for a mop to help.
And so also with evil in this world.
This is helpful. I decided to respond to let you know I am pondering it.
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on
:
I like your style, No Prophet.
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ikkyu:
Please share your recipe for home made microprocessors, keyboards , modems etc.
Well I guess, you can argue that you don't really need the internet.
What about home made antibiotics for when you pull your own teeth out instead of going to the dentist?
I hope you are very efficient at putting out fires with the water you draw from your own well or are you planning on calling the fire department for that?
I hope you can grow your own food without the use of fertilizers or pesticides.
If you are planning on raising animals for food
are you going to domesticate them yourself from their original wild state?
If not how "independent" are you?
I did say "quite a bit more" independent, not "completely". We managed without the internet until about 15-20 years ago, some people still do. I do grow my own fruit and veg and I wasn't planning to raise and slaughter any animals any time soon. Etc etc.
I don't like being dependent on other people or the thought that I "need" other people. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link: rely on other people and you'll always get let down sooner or later, either by accident or by design. Some things are unavoidable, or not do-able by yourself, but it's better to do as much as you can yourself while you can.
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on
:
Yeah, I think that's an illusion. A comfortable illusion, but an illusion. And the danger there is that you take people for granted, then-- not recognizing how much their actions, their contributions, however distant they might seem, impact and enhance your own life.
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on
:
quote:
Lamb Chopped:
Most of that is due to the Holy Spirit, God in us doing what God's going to do. That's just the way we roll. You can't split up God and God's people, as if giving credit to one meant denying it to the other. Are the lungs somehow more or less necessary than the cardiovascular system?
And to bring down the tone of things with a Thump!, there's also the very obvious fact that, if I sit on my ass and say "let God deal with it, I've got popcorn to eat," I'm going to get the same reaction from him that I would have gotten from my mother if I'd said that about family housecleaning days.
From this, probably I don't get much Holy Spirit experience or I don't know how to notice it. I just try to figure out what the best thing to do is.
The idea of non-separability of people and God is interesting. Not sure what to make of it just yet. Almost as if God needs people? Sounds like something I heard from a Jewish friend 30 years ago.
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on
:
Very Open-Theist (which does have a significant Jewish contingent)
Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
From this, probably I don't get much Holy Spirit experience or I don't know how to notice it. I just try to figure out what the best thing to do is.
The idea of non-separability of people and God is interesting. Not sure what to make of it just yet. Almost as if God needs people? Sounds like something I heard from a Jewish friend 30 years ago.
I included a reply to you in the 'forgiveness' thread No Prophet, as the two I think are intertwined.
I don't think that God is in need of us, or of anything, but I believe that God loves us enough to want spiritual intimacy with us. God facilitates that intimacy through the Holy Spirit. It is for us to say yes or no, to invite and welcome God in or to leave God outside the door. We might not notice an immediate difference, it may not make a huge impact on us, although sometimes it does. Either way, we gradually become aware of God's presence in us as we make our very life a prayer, helping us to do what's right against the odds in a world that's wrong.
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
:
In response to the OP and regardless of virtually everything I say and feel, I just got His help here.
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
:
no prophet's flag wrote:
quote:
The idea of non-separability of people and God is interesting. Not sure what to make of it just yet. Almost as if God needs people? Sounds like something I heard from a Jewish friend 30 years ago.
I find non-separability interesting, in fact, I find separability puzzling. Dualism haunts the Western mind, and creates its own hell.
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
I included a reply to you in the 'forgiveness' thread No Prophet, as the two I think are intertwined.
I presume this from there:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
I don't see it that God needs us, No Prophet, but God does love us, all of us, and would like close relationship with all of us, if we are willing.
Which takes me back to a much less personal relationship than I think you wish to imply. I get it much more like children who moved away from home, and in days before internet and phone call, dropped the parents a card in or letter in the mail. We're holding it out on faith that they are reading their mail, as we don't get replies.
I'm continuing to think through the non-separability, but turning in my thoughts toward: God never does things independent of people and always has to work through people. So not really needing us in the way I was thinking yesterday.
Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
I don't see it that God needs us, No Prophet, but God does love us, all of us, and would like close relationship with all of us, if we are willing.
Which takes me back to a much less personal relationship than I think you wish to imply. I get it much more like children who moved away from home, and in days before internet and phone call, dropped the parents a card in or letter in the mail. We're holding it out on faith that they are reading their mail, as we don't get replies.
I'm continuing to think through the non-separability, but turning in my thoughts toward: God never does things independent of people and always has to work through people. So not really needing us in the way I was thinking yesterday.
It's interesting that three or four threads are intertwining here in ideas, thank you for finding it.
To me it is more the relationship of a married couple who know each other closely, and who over time become aware of each other's presence without looking.
I think that God does sometimes do things independently although it's usually through people. There's a Psalm which says if God can't find a person willing to serve, he'll use an eagle.
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Lamb Chopped:
Most of that is due to the Holy Spirit, God in us doing what God's going to do. That's just the way we roll. You can't split up God and God's people, as if giving credit to one meant denying it to the other. Are the lungs somehow more or less necessary than the cardiovascular system?
And to bring down the tone of things with a Thump!, there's also the very obvious fact that, if I sit on my ass and say "let God deal with it, I've got popcorn to eat," I'm going to get the same reaction from him that I would have gotten from my mother if I'd said that about family housecleaning days.
From this, probably I don't get much Holy Spirit experience or I don't know how to notice it. I just try to figure out what the best thing to do is.
The idea of non-separability of people and God is interesting. Not sure what to make of it just yet. Almost as if God needs people? Sounds like something I heard from a Jewish friend 30 years ago.
As for getting Holy Spirit experience--if you are a baptized believer in Christ, he lives in you and works in you whether you perceive anything or not. Most of the time it's not, though I think it's possible to train oneself to be a bit more aware. But still, look at the sheep in that parable of Jesus', who look up at the throne with their sheepy little jaws hanging open and say, "Derrrr, Lord, we don't remember doing any of that!" Of course not, fools, it just looked like your daily routine to you. And it was your daily routine--for people in Christ, that is. Of course you forgot it all, never being very much aware of it in the first place. Which is probably a good thing™, as it forestalls pride.
As for nonseparability of God's people and God, this is what it means to be the body of Christ. A person's actions take place through his body, right? And both the person and the individual hand or toe can be credited for it, without contradiction developing.
But all of this is speaking of those who are in Christ. As for those who are not (yet) in Christ, I can't say much with any surety I know what I'm talking about.
Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by Ikkyu:
Please share your recipe for home made microprocessors, keyboards , modems etc.
Well I guess, you can argue that you don't really need the internet.
What about home made antibiotics for when you pull your own teeth out instead of going to the dentist?
I hope you are very efficient at putting out fires with the water you draw from your own well or are you planning on calling the fire department for that?
I hope you can grow your own food without the use of fertilizers or pesticides.
If you are planning on raising animals for food
are you going to domesticate them yourself from their original wild state?
If not how "independent" are you?
I did say "quite a bit more" independent, not "completely". We managed without the internet until about 15-20 years ago, some people still do. I do grow my own fruit and veg and I wasn't planning to raise and slaughter any animals any time soon. Etc etc.
I don't like being dependent on other people or the thought that I "need" other people. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link: rely on other people and you'll always get let down sooner or later, either by accident or by design. Some things are unavoidable, or not do-able by yourself, but it's better to do as much as you can yourself while you can.
This just makes me think of the story about trying to feed yourself in Heaven v feeding others. How sad. We all need each other no matter how much our pride might say otherwise. Believe me, I know I feel like you a lot of the time, but I think we miss the essence of our human identity if we don't exist within community and interdependence.
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
:
To the OP. It seems Justin did until Paris. He never ceases to disappoint me. At least one of his bishops - Stephen Cottrell - obviously agreed with the OP. Which is why he backs bombing.
Even Owen Jones was on the sodding bandwagon, saying that it was impossible to talk to the death cult of so called Syria-Iraq.
I trust that we are.
© Ship of Fools 2016
UBB.classicTM
6.5.0