quote:

---

Originally posted by Doublethink.:
I wonder if they showed The Passion of the Christ in their cinemas.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
... It is overtly religious and Christian ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:
The correct secularist approach would be to collect evidence of the alleged offensiveness before taking action. To fail to do this is, literally (from the etymology), pre-judice - "judgement before (having the evidence)".

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doublethink.:
There are a load of ads I don't partocularly want to watch before the trailers too. I cope.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
so let's produce a third-rate ad that can be shown in cinemas and then people might try prayer,

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Humble Servant:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
so let's produce a third-rate ad that can be shown in cinemas and then people might try prayer,

---

As soon as I heard it, I thought people will complain about this. They'll complain that their not using the version they learnt at school.
Then it goes on and change the translation they're using, so the rest can complain that they're not using modern language. They even do forgive us our "trespasses" as we forgive those who "sin". What a shoddy piece of CofE wishy washy compromise.

---

• an indirect one for sanitary products (a cartoon about a goose - freedom),
• Haribos,
• car ads,
• insurance
• trailers for various films,
• popcorn and snacks from the shop,
• the cinema chain's adverts, things about online links, subtitles and audio description.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albertus:
I think it's a pity they didn't show it, though they are perfectly entitled to choose what they want to show. My only question was about how consistently they apply their 'no religious or political ads' rule. For example, what kind of ad, if any, might they accept from, say, Stonewall or Amnesty? I don't know.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albertus:
I think it's a pity they didn't show it, though they are perfectly entitled to choose what they want to show. My only question was about how consistently they apply their 'no religious or political ads' rule. For example, what kind of ad, if any, might they accept from, say, Stonewall or Amnesty? I don't know.

---

On that basis, if you want the church to come across as some sort of activist minority with a worthy cause, bring on the ads.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albertus:
' So come along to St Frideswides, Frogbury Parva: Sunday 8 am communion, 10 am all age worship, 7pm evening service; brownies Tuesdays 6pm, mums and toddlers group Thursday 3pm ; Alpha course starting soon. Only five minutes from this cinema'.

---

Sounds lovely, and marginally more plausible than what was attempted.

I really think advertising is just the wrong way to go for the Kingdom of God, but I could just about live with the above on the basis that you are marketing a product or (ha ha) service. Reducing something as universal as prayer to the level of a commodity (by the choice of medium), however, has me kind of looking round for some cords to make a whip out of.
 

---

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
I should perhaps add that the RC church hereabouts had a recent poster fundraising campaign featuring a grinning Pope Francis giving a Facebook-style "like". I wonder a) whether it brought in more than it cost to produce and display b) whether he signed his image rights over...
 

---

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
{Peering across the Pond, with American eyes.}

Um, errr, did the C of E have any reason to think this acceptable and a good idea???

(Tangentially: Is "God Save The Queen" still played/sung before films?)

Did they choose to put it before "Star Wars" because of its ongoing spiritual theme? Or maybe they wanted to counteract it?

I hate to think what would happen if it was tried over here. "Trespasses!" "No, debts!" "Shut up, you freaking weirdos! We want to watch the movie!" Then the guns might come out. And that's BEFORE any consideration of including/excluding other religions.

 

---

Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:
Reducing something as universal as prayer to the level of a commodity (by the choice of medium), however, has me kind of looking round for some cords to make a whip out of.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
As has been sais, you'd think they'd have checked the media owner's policy before makingbthe ad. Perhaps they weren't told, but it does seem an oversight - particularly as there'd be terms and conditions available.

---

quote:

---

2. Required Standards
2.1 To be approved, an Advertisement must:
2.1.1 have been cleared as compliant with the UK Code of Non-Broadcast Advertising;
2.1.2 have received any necessary classification (for example a film classification for age rating);
2.1.3 not in the reasonable opinion of DCM constitute Political or Religious Advertising; and
2.1.4 otherwise comply with DCM’s Terms and Conditions (effective from 1 January 2015), as published on DCM’s website (http://www.dcm.co.uk/).
2.2 For the purposes of clause 2.1.3 above, Political or Religious Advertising means:
2.2.1 political advertising for the purposes of section 321 of the Communications Act 2003; or
2.2.2 advertising which wholly or partly advertises any religion, faith or equivalent systems of belief (including any absence of belief) or any part of any religion, faith or such equivalent systems of belief.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albertus:
I think it's a pity they didn't show it, though they are perfectly entitled to choose what they want to show. My only question was about how consistently they apply their 'no religious or political ads' rule. For example, what kind of ad, if any, might they accept from, say, Stonewall or Amnesty? I don't know.

---

On that basis, if you want the church to come across as some sort of activist minority with a worthy cause, bring on the ads.

---

Isn't this precisely what the CofE is?

(OK, harsh, but someone was going to say it, so it might as well be me! I still love Evensong.)


 

---

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :
 
Am I the only one who finds the use of a prayer—and the Lord's Prayer, no less—as an advertisement really strange? The ad doesn't come across to me as an invitation to pray; it comes across as the prayer itself, as watching other people pray.

Seems to me an ad inviting and encouraging people to pray would try to tell people why they should pray, not just allow them to watch a prayer being prayed.

I think I would be very uncomfortable seeing that ad in a movie theater, because I think I'd feel like the prayer was being misused.
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
If you love Evensong, you'll adore Compline.

Sadly, neither are available that often in this town ...

Interesting link to the terms and conditions. I've been told elsewhet that the cinema chains initially approved the ad but then back-teacked. A case of 6 abd two 3s perhaps ...
 

---

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 
Just seen it. It's a nice ad, but not Christmassy enough. If they'd had some Santas or elves in the foreground and some discrete prayers in the background it might not have come across as quite so religious.

I also agree that the current Archbishop of Canterbury is not sufficiently telegenic. Why did he appear at the beginning? At least the previous one looked a bit like Santa!
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
If they'd had Santas and elves then they'd have been criticised for that ...

The ad is well produced but lacks point and punch.

All it says is, 'Look, we pray - you can yry it too.'

Which is hardly going to surprise anyone.
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
Am I the only one who finds the use of a prayer—and the Lord's Prayer, no less—as an advertisement really strange? The ad doesn't come across to me as an invitation to pray; it comes across as the prayer itself, as watching other people pray.

Seems to me an ad inviting and encouraging people to pray would try to tell people why they should pray, not just allow them to watch a prayer being prayed.

I think I would be very uncomfortable seeing that ad in a movie theater, because I think I'd feel like the prayer was being misused.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I find ALL adverts at the cinema annoying, basically because I paid to see a movie. And I know I'm not alone in that. So the whole project struck me as probably counter-productive. But that is not a good reason for banning it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
The word God is not a shibboleth,

---

No, but "Merry Christmas" is, in this country.
 

---

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
Am I the only one who finds the use of a prayer—and the Lord's Prayer, no less—as an advertisement really strange? The ad doesn't come across to me as an invitation to pray; it comes across as the prayer itself, as watching other people pray.

Seems to me an ad inviting and encouraging people to pray would try to tell people why they should pray, not just allow them to watch a prayer being prayed.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
If they'd had Santas and elves then they'd have been criticised for that ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
The word God is not a shibboleth,

---

No, but "Merry Christmas" is, in this country.

---

I overheard an interesting conversation at the (secular) asylum-seeker centre this morning.

The woman on the desk was inviting a Muslim mother with a little boy to the centre's Christmas party, and asking the mum what he would like as a present from under the tree eg car, football (yes, I know, gender stereotype...).

When the mother replied that he would like a toy gun, she was gently "corrected"!

What I found rally interesting, however, was the blithely unashamed reference to Christmas.

I asked the reception woman about it after the mother left, and she told me that no-one had any problem with it, despite the centre's clientele's being at least 90% Muslim.
 

---

Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :
 
I don't go to the cinema, and therefore do not see their adverts, so all I would add to the question of whether this particular ad should be shown or not is that all other ads have an actual product or service available to buy or find out facts about, and the prayer ad....? Hmmm, well, no!!
 

---

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Late Quartet:
I'm disappointed by the live prayer bit of the site, since it's unmoderated and full of hate speech and so on.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
The word God is not a shibboleth,

---

No, but "Merry Christmas" is, in this country.

---

I overheard an interesting conversation at the (secular) asylum-seeker centre this morning.

The woman on the desk was inviting a Muslim mother with a little boy to the centre's Christmas party, and asking the mum what he would like as a present from under the tree eg car, football (yes, I know, gender stereotype...).

When the mother replied that he would like a toy gun, she was gently "corrected"!

What I found rally interesting, however, was the blithely unashamed reference to Christmas.

I asked the reception woman about it after the mother left, and she told me that no-one had any problem with it, despite the centre's clientele's being at least 90% Muslim.

---

quote:

---

SusanDoris: I don't go to the cinema, and therefore do not see their adverts, so all I would add to the question of whether this particular ad should be shown or not is that all other ads have an actual product or service available to buy or find out facts about, and the prayer ad....? Hmmm, well, no!!

---

I know that "things are only true if they can be measured" is your bullshit hobby horse but come on, adverts? "Buy our stuff and you will be happy"
 

---

Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albertus:
can't remember where you're from, KC- if you're in one of a certain number of US states, perhaps this was just evidence of how quickly the family were integrating into their host community...)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Truman White:
It's a great missional opportunity. Open excuse to ask people what they think of the Lord's pray, have they every prayed it, do they ever pray, who to (sos, that should have been whom to...).

---

What is? The advert or the controversy?

If the former, I can just see me clambering out of my seat as the opening scenes of Star Wars roll with my impacted cinemagoing neighbour to some makeshift "inquiry room"... I bet I could get just as good a conversation out of the film itself for no outlay by the Church.

If the latter, this is fuel to the conspiracy theory that the whole thing is a stunt designed to be rejected anyway, which hardly goes along with the apostle Paul's injunction not to use deceptive means when preaching the Gospel.

[ 23. November 2015, 08:31: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
 

---

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
It might have been better just to survey public opinion about just how annoying cinema advertising is. Trailers for upcoming movies - that's fine unless they show more than 5! Anything else - just time wasting and/or irritating. I'd lay strong odds that would be a big majority opinion.

BTW SusanDoris, advertisers sell dreams which they claim their products meet. It's a fantasy world. Given your world view I would have thought you would see prayer fitting in very well.

[ 23. November 2015, 08:34: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
 

---

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dave W.:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
As has been sais, you'd think they'd have checked the media owner's policy before makingbthe ad. Perhaps they weren't told, but it does seem an oversight - particularly as there'd be terms and conditions available.

---

DCM's advertising policy is just two clicks from their home page - you can get there via the link at the bottom marked "Advertising Policy". From which:

quote:

---

2. Required Standards
2.1 To be approved, an Advertisement must:
2.1.1 have been cleared as compliant with the UK Code of Non-Broadcast Advertising;
2.1.2 have received any necessary classification (for example a film classification for age rating);
2.1.3 not in the reasonable opinion of DCM constitute Political or Religious Advertising; and
2.1.4 otherwise comply with DCM’s Terms and Conditions (effective from 1 January 2015), as published on DCM’s website (http://www.dcm.co.uk/).
2.2 For the purposes of clause 2.1.3 above, Political or Religious Advertising means:
2.2.1 political advertising for the purposes of section 321 of the Communications Act 2003; or
2.2.2 advertising which wholly or partly advertises any religion, faith or equivalent systems of belief (including any absence of belief) or any part of any religion, faith or such equivalent systems of belief.

---

---

I'm more embarassed at the lack of common sense shown in not checking that an ad like that would be shown in cinemas before spending the time and money creating one. The policy's pretty clear.

It's certainly not typical of the ads you see now - other movies, competitions, products and reminders to turn your phone off / not steal movies.

Vanity project then.


Tubbs

[ 23. November 2015, 08:37: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
 

---

Posted by Komensky (# 8675) on :
 
Well, you can't have it and not have it. How would you feel if you sat down in the cinema and heard the Call to Prayer as part of some effort to convert people to Islam or awaken latent Muslims? I'm not sure there's anything wrong with religious groups advertising in cinema's, provide they obey the same regulations as everyone else. I don't remember there being a big flap about Bear Grylls' cinema ad for the Alpha Course, about 10 years ago or so; does anyone remember any protestations about that?

K.
 

---

Posted by Truman White (# 17290) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Truman White:
It's a great missional opportunity. Open excuse to ask people what they think of the Lord's pray, have they every prayed it, do they ever pray, who to (sos, that should have been whom to...).

---

What is? The advert or the controversy?

If the former, I can just see me clambering out of my seat as the opening scenes of Star Wars roll with my impacted cinemagoing neighbour to some makeshift "inquiry room"... I bet I could get just as good a conversation out of the film itself for no outlay by the Church.

If the latter, this is fuel to the conspiracy theory that the whole thing is a stunt designed to be rejected anyway, which hardly goes along with the apostle Paul's injunction not to use deceptive means when preaching the Gospel.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albertus:
can't remember where you're from, KC- if you're in one of a certain number of US states, perhaps this was just evidence of how quickly the family were integrating into their host community...)

---

Australia actually, but close, because there is only the Pacific between us.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Truman White:
Shouldn't be too hard to start a casual conversation about the Gospel on the back of national news about prayer.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Komensky:
I'm not sure there's anything wrong with religious groups advertising in cinema's, provide they obey the same regulations as everyone else.

---

quote:

---

In any case, the chances of any such ad attracting more than either ridicule or boredom were going to be slight: Justin ought to get some sensible PR advice, not go with this type of cringe-making nonsense.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by fletcher christian:
On the other hand, there is something slightly incongruous about having films like the Passion of Christ and the Lord's Prayer as a number one Christmas single and nobody complaining....except those that probably quite rightly felt that both movie and single were crap.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
I'm gobsmacked that the powers-that-be didn't check what would be allowed before spending shedloads on a professional ad.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
I'm gobsmacked that the powers-that-be didn't check what would be allowed before spending shedloads on a professional ad.

---

According to Bishop Stephen Cotterrell, the DID check but the goalposts have moved.

Ther HAVE shown political ads. in the past e.g. the Scottish referendum campaign.

A spokesman from the British Humanist Association thought that the ad. should go ahead - like their 'There is no god...'

And in repose to an earlier post, no we don't get the national anthem any more - it was always my cue to walk out.

A much bigger issue is that cinemas are often places of spirituality as movies often deal with the big questions.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barnabas62:
It might have been better just to survey public opinion about just how annoying cinema advertising is. Trailers for upcoming movies - that's fine unless they show more than 5! Anything else - just time wasting and/or irritating. I'd lay strong odds that would be a big majority opinion.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
I'm gobsmacked that the powers-that-be didn't check what would be allowed before spending shedloads on a professional ad.

---

According to Bishop Stephen Cotterrell, the DID check but the goalposts have moved.

---

quote:

---

And in repose to an earlier post, no we don't get the national anthem any more - it was always my cue to walk out.

---

quote:

---

Tubbs: It would be interesting to know when they checked as the pdf says the policy is effective from 1 January 2015 and it's now November 2015.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I imagine that 'inviting and encouraging people to pray' would make for a very long-winded advert. You wouldn't be able to say much in one minute anyway.

The appeal of the ad, to me, is that it includes a variety of different types of people praying in different contexts, rather than one talking head (and I'm imaging a rather vicarish, Justin Welby-type character) telling us how and why to pray.

As it stands it doesn't belong in a cinema, but an ad in which a Welby lookalike yappers on about prayer would belong there even less.

---

Why would it have to be long-winded, or have a Welby lookalike yapping about prayer? Take those same people you find compelling and instead of having the viewer watch them pray, let them speak to the camera and finish the sentence "I pray because ____," or "I pray when _____."

"I pray because I'm grateful." "I pray because I need guidance" or "because I need comfort." '"I pray because I want to be closer to God."

Finish with something like "Whatever your reason, just pray."
 

---

Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :
 
Barnabas62

Well, I agree that the Lord's prayer ad would be promoting a dream/fantasy! Mind you, this would put any atheist ad rather at a disadvantage, because it would not attempt to promote belief in a fantasy.
 

---

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:

---

Tubbs: It would be interesting to know when they checked as the pdf says the policy is effective from 1 January 2015 and it's now November 2015.

---

From my experience, when an organisation announces that a new rule will be in place from a certain date, this doesn't mean that everyone in the organisation necessarily knows about this rule after the date has passed.

---

It also depends on who and what you ask.

If you ask a sales question about placing an ad you are likely to be greeted with delight and offered a discount if you're a new customer.

If you ask a compliance question about the policy about placing ads on certain subjects - say religion and politics - you may get another.

Neither of which would be untrue.

Also, the policy is on the website ... Did no one really think to look or double check?! (This is a retorical question as the answer is obvious!)

Tubbs

[ 23. November 2015, 12:32: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
 

---

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
I'm gobsmacked that the powers-that-be didn't check what would be allowed before spending shedloads on a professional ad.

---

According to Bishop Stephen Cotterrell, the DID check but the goalposts have moved.

Ther HAVE shown political ads. in the past e.g. the Scottish referendum campaign.

A spokesman from the British Humanist Association thought that the ad. should go ahead - like their 'There is no god...'

And in repose to an earlier post, no we don't get the national anthem any more - it was always my cue to walk out.

A much bigger issue is that cinemas are often places of spirituality as movies often deal with the big questions.

---

quote:

---

Tubbs: It also depends on who and what you ask.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:

---

Tubbs: It also depends on who and what you ask.

---

Yes, very much so. I'm starting to suspect that there was some internal miscommunication within the cinema company involved here.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Or all three. Within the company, within the CofE and between the company and the CofE.

That makes a nice, neat Trinitarian formulary of it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Meanwhile, here is an interesting take on the issue:

http://www.kouya.net/?p=7467

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Operational Success.

More people are talking, writing, tweeting and getting their panties in a wad about prayer than at any time in the last decade.

Communication, working as planned.

Getting is banned was a stroke of genius.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Meanwhile, here is an interesting take on the issue:

http://www.kouya.net/?p=7467

---

Andrew Graystone is a good friend and clearly a voice of reason here.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tubbs:
The Church Mouse's response is interesting. The policy reads as if it was issued in January 2015, but their comments suggest it may have been later.

Tubbs

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by argona:
Yes! So maybe not so ill-conceived. And it does seem the Church sought assurances the ad would be acceptable, and received them, only to face a U-turn after the ad was in the can and paid for. So not so naive, more fucked in fact.

Still glad it's not going out though. Not the way to do it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
I dunno. If you talk to the company involved and they say "no, there will be no problem, in fact, let us offer you a large discount" then it seems - understandable? excusable? - to think that it might be OK with everybody.

Why should it be any worse to screen a cinema advert about prayer (annoying or otherwise) than to put up an (annoying or otherwise) hoarding on the street?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr cheesy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by argona:
Yes! So maybe not so ill-conceived. And it does seem the Church sought assurances the ad would be acceptable, and received them, only to face a U-turn after the ad was in the can and paid for. So not so naive, more fucked in fact.

Still glad it's not going out though. Not the way to do it.

---

If it is actually the case that the advertising people changed their mind, then OK, maybe that's an issue.

But still. This was so bone-headingly stupid, I'd have thought that almost anyone could have told the media people at Lambeth Palace that this was going to backfire. I mean, really, did they think that there was going to be a great outpouring of support for the right of the established church to preach to the unsuspecting public at a cinema?

---

Nobody was claiming any 'right' in this. And nobody was preaching. Just praying. To the unsuspecting? Maybe, but when was an unsuspected prayer ever a threat? Tactically, this was probably a bad move I'd agree, but mainly because the most likely reaction would be yours. And, in our place with our limitations, we have to be tactical.
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Before this turns into another holier-than-thou 'lets bash the nasty Established CofE fest', did anyone else notice the quote from the Reverend Bazil Meade of the London Community Gospel Choir during his sound-bite interview for the BBC News last night?

"Whoever designed this prayer obviously found... seemed to have found...the language and words that makes one feel as though one is actually talking to God."


 

---

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by argona:
Nobody was claiming any 'right' in this. And nobody was preaching. Just praying. To the unsuspecting? Maybe, but when was an unsuspected prayer ever a threat? Tactically, this was probably a bad move I'd agree, but mainly because the most likely reaction would be yours. And, in our place with our limitations, we have to be tactical.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr cheesy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tubbs:
The Church Mouse's response is interesting. The policy reads as if it was issued in January 2015, but their comments suggest it may have been later.

Tubbs

---

To be honest, that makes zero difference to me. If the CofE media boffins didn't work out between them that a cinema advert about praying was going to be a problem, they should have.

Nobody needed to read the policy/tealeaves to know that.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tubbs:
Not really. They'd shown Alpha ads in the same cinema chains before without any bother so the date the policy was actually issued and communicated could be key in understanding what happened and why. Because no company ever has issued a policy and then backdated it for reasons of their own. Interestingly enough, when I looked at the policy document again, it didn't have an issue date on.

Tubbs

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by argona:

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr cheesy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by argona:
Nobody was claiming any 'right' in this. And nobody was preaching. Just praying. To the unsuspecting? Maybe, but when was an unsuspected prayer ever a threat? Tactically, this was probably a bad move I'd agree, but mainly because the most likely reaction would be yours. And, in our place with our limitations, we have to be tactical.

---

Right, so you'd be happy to go to the cinema to watch James Bond and have to listen to 60 seconds of a) an Islamic call to prayer b) Tibetan Buddhist prayer chanting or c) a Satanist spell, would you?

No, I didn't think so.

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tubbs:

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
I'm gobsmacked that the powers-that-be didn't check what would be allowed before spending shedloads on a professional ad.

---

According to Bishop Stephen Cotterrell, the DID check but the goalposts have moved.

Ther HAVE shown political ads. in the past e.g. the Scottish referendum campaign.

A spokesman from the British Humanist Association thought that the ad. should go ahead - like their 'There is no god...'

And in repose to an earlier post, no we don't get the national anthem any more - it was always my cue to walk out.

A much bigger issue is that cinemas are often places of spirituality as movies often deal with the big questions.

---

It would be interesting to know when they checked as the pdf says the policy is effective from 1 January 2015 and it's now November 2015.

The Scottish Referendum was before the new policy came into effect. And the arguement that they used to do it is rather weak.

Tubbs

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin60:
WHY does 'my' side score nothing but own goals?

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Operational Success.

More people are talking, writing, tweeting and getting their panties in a wad about prayer than at any time in the last decade.

Communication, working as planned.

Getting is banned was a stroke of genius.

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lilBuddha: ISTM, after a brief and minor kerfuffle, we shall see exactly as many people praying after as before.

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I can imagine an increase in prayer in the CofE's media department: please let our next idea be better
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Indeed.

I don't think the 'banning' which make a blind bit of difference to the CofE's fortunes/misfortunes - just as I don't think the ad would have made a happ'orth of difference had it been screened as planned.

Apart from people like us, nobody cares.

That's the grim reality. Nobody gives a flying fart.
 

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Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 

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Originally posted by mousethief:

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Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I find ALL adverts at the cinema annoying, basically because I paid to see a movie. And I know I'm not alone in that. So the whole project struck me as probably counter-productive. But that is not a good reason for banning it.

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"Banning"? Was it really banned? Or just not accepted as an advert that particular company wanted to run in its theatres? How can a private corporation "ban" anything? The rhetoric is getting thick in here.

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Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Because to anyone with an ounce of sense, it is obvious that the next stop will be every-other-religion wanting an advert in a cinema. Only the short-sighted and special pleading nature of the Established church could obscure the obvious problems with this idea.

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What problems would be caused by every other religion wanting an advert in the cinema that aren't reflections of the narrow-mindedness of viewers?

(FWIW I wouldn't object to the Muslim call to prayer, Tibetan Buddhist chanting, etc.)

[ 23. November 2015, 18:12: Message edited by: Ricardus ]
 

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Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
Did anyone else think that Welby looked rather sinister in the opening seconds of this advert?
 

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Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
Does anyone else think that Welby almost always looks rather sinister?
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I'm sure your Baptist minister colleague is worthy of respect, Baptist Trainfan, but he doesn't win mine with that article, I'm afraid ... all he's doing is using guilt-inducement - the preacher's standard stock-in-trade whatever the churchmanship ...

'Ah, before we rush to judge, how many of US actually pray the Lord's Prayer regularly ... not just reciting it but actually praying it ... yadda yadda yadda yadda ...'

Yawn.

How many times have I heard this sort of guilt manipulation from the pulpit?



All he's doing is capitalising on the situation to induce even more guilt among those who listen to him or read his blog.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 

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Originally posted by Gramps49:
If the Church of England is paying for the Advertisement I see nothing wrong with it. We see similar ads on TV and some theaters here in the US.

I really see nothing offensive about it.

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Originally posted by Albertus:
Does anyone else think that Welby almost always looks rather sinister?

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Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
--My answer is that the ad should be probably be presented, and the non-presentation probably violates something to do with free speech and minority rights.

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Originally posted by Jemima the 9th:
2. The tagline "The hardest bit is starting to pray". Really, really not so in my experience. And I doubt it's just me.

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2.2.2 advertising which wholly or partly advertises any religion, faith or equivalent systems of belief (including any absence of belief) or any part of any religion, faith or such equivalent systems of belief.

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Before this turns into another holier-than-thou 'lets bash the nasty Established CofE fest', did anyone else notice the quote from the Reverend Bazil Meade of the London Community Gospel Choir during his sound-bite interview for the BBC News last night?

"Whoever designed this prayer obviously found... seemed to have found...the language and words that makes one feel as though one is actually talking to God."

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Rightly or wrongly, the creators of the ad appear to see prayer as the entry-level 'way-in' to a relationship with God.

I think they're right as it happens.

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Originally posted by Eutychus:

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Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
--My answer is that the ad should be probably be presented, and the non-presentation probably violates something to do with free speech and minority rights.

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That's ridiculous. This is advertising. At the very worst it's a contract dispute. The cinema is a private entity and entitled to buy whatever advertising it likes and turn down whatever it doesn't. If you don't buy a jar of Branston Pickle from me, are you infringing my basic rights as a Branston Pickle lover?

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Originally posted by Eutychus:


The underlying problem here is how a historic state church comes to terms with a pluralistic, secular society; the answer in this case appears to be "not very well".

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The Alpha ad is marginally more acceptable to my mind because it's basically advertising a product - the Alpha course.

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Take those same people you find compelling [in the ad] and instead of having the viewer watch them pray, let them speak to the camera and finish the sentence "I pray because ____," or "I pray when _____."

"I pray because I'm grateful." "I pray because I need guidance" or "because I need comfort." '"I pray because I want to be closer to God."

Finish with something like "Whatever your reason, just pray."

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Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
A pickle is a product that you eat. Trivial. A religious advert is about a cultural value. The venue is open to the public so it is a public space subject to regulation as such. Not trivial. They are both presented as audio-video material, but that does not mean they are the same type of "product". Your error is to mistake a consumer product with the promotion of culture values.

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Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Or all three. Within the company, within the CofE and between the company and the CofE.

That makes a nice, neat Trinitarian formulary of it.

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But I thought that the Persons of the Trinity always existed in perfect harmony and were in constant communication?

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If we think the government, the church, and the corporations are all part of one big conspiracy, does that make us modalists?
 

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Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :
 
All adverts promote "culture values". The biggest one being the cultural value of finding happiness, social acceptance etc through wearing the right clothing or having the right gadget etc ... and, according to the ad, "here's the thing you need". Other culture values include those of entitlement - you failed to read the contract you signed when you took out a loan, you are entitled to PPI compensation.

The Church should be countering the consumerist values of our culture. That could be done through advertising, but I think it should be done carefully. Advertising is the means that consumerism uses to encourage people to consume more, and to consume the particular product or service advertised. If I was to employ a metaphor of cultural warfare, advertising is the weapon of consumerism - and using the weapon of the enemy is a very dangerous thing at times. It is a path that can lead to the Dark Side.
 

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Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :
 
There's an otherwise well regarded regional airline here where your snack comes with a slip of paper printed with a psalm. I find it creepy and hope that it's seen as evangelism and not an inside opinion on the likelihood of a successful flight.

I'd rather not see commercials where someone might take offense if I talk, get up to go to the restroom or eat popcorn. I expect those who paid for the commercial would expect some sort of respect and not just a convenient pause to run out to the lobby.

Now if there was a proper series of little Mystery Worshipper episodes; that would be worthwhile.

 

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Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
In some African places (I've especially seen it in Malawi), after a bus leaves town it stops and everyone is required to pray. The way this is done often struck me as rather aggressive. I've also wondered more than once if there is a relation with the driving skills of the guy behind the wheel.
 

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Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on :
 

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Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:

quote:

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Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
The word God is not a shibboleth,

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No, but "Merry Christmas" is, in this country.

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I overheard an interesting conversation at the (secular) asylum-seeker centre this morning.

The woman on the desk was inviting a Muslim mother with a little boy to the centre's Christmas party, and asking the mum what he would like as a present from under the tree eg car, football (yes, I know, gender stereotype...).

When the mother replied that he would like a toy gun, she was gently "corrected"!

What I found rally interesting, however, was the blithely unashamed reference to Christmas.

I asked the reception woman about it after the mother left, and she told me that no-one had any problem with it, despite the centre's clientele's being at least 90% Muslim.

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Originally posted by Palimpsest:
There's an otherwise well regarded regional airline here where your snack comes with a slip of paper printed with a psalm. I find it creepy and hope that it's seen as evangelism and not an inside opinion on the likelihood of a successful flight.

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quote:

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
In some African places (I've especially seen it in Malawi), after a bus leaves town it stops and everyone is required to pray. The way this is done often struck me as rather aggressive. I've also wondered more than once if there is a relation with the driving skills of the guy behind the wheel.

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I didn't experience that in Tanzania, but did see people crossing themselves as they got on local buses (dala dala / matatu). That used to scare me, and with good reason. 8 months travelling on local buses I experienced some incredibly dangerous driving. I think it was only luck that I was never in an accident. Two of my wazungu (European) friends had very close shaves. One ended up in a ditch in a bus, but was mercifully unhurt. The other woke the driver up when she saw he was asleep at the wheel!
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
@Gill H - the Bear Grylls Alpha ads predate the code. I think that may have been mentioned upthread.

The media-owner seems to have introduced the 'ban' on political and religious advertising after some argy-bargy during the Scottish Referendum - but someone seems not to have told the CofE's media-buyers that such a restriction was in place.

@Mousethief, no it doesn't make you a modalist but it does put you in danger of becoming a conspiracy theorist ... and there are enough of them online already ...

@SvitlanaV2 - I suspect they interviewed the Gospel Choir bloke in the interests of balance - so that it didn't look like a bunch of middle-class Eton educated Anglican clerics ...

I think your idea of CD with a video and instruction about prayer is a good one and if I were in the CofE's communications department I'd be recommending that as a course of action ... the ads already been made and is being aired online through social media - so producing a CD with a few interviews on 'why I pray' as well as the ad and some sample prayers would be a good idea - churches could give them to enquirers.

@Alan Cresswell - I didn't say that prayer was the ONLY entry-level way in - as it were - of course it has to be accompanied by human contact with believers and so on - and other elements besides.

I agree with you that a stand-alone cinema ad lacks that 3D or 360-degree context - which is one of the reasons why I wouldn't advocate this approach if it were down to me.

Meanwhile, could you clarify what you mean by 'prayer warriors'?

I wasn't sure whether you were advocating it or using it a neutral sense - as a term that is often used among certain charismatic evangelicals.

It is possible to meet people - of all persuasions - who seem more 'prayerful' than others, but I'm very wary of the 'prayer warriors' thing as it conjures up some of the more unhelpful aspects of 'spiritual warfare' and such like schtick promoted by some of the loopier elements on the charismatic scene.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Meanwhile, what Eutychus said ...

I'm no longer involved with advertising and promotion to the extent that I once was ... although I am still involved with marketing research and evaluation to a certain extent - assessing and evaluating communication messages and campaigns and so on - so one of the issues here, it seems to me - is whether such initiatives have clear objectives in the first place.

What were they trying to achieve?

To drive traffic to the Just Pray site?

If so, why? What were they expecting people to do once they got there? Post online prayers? What for?

Raise awareness of prayer in general - that's so vast as to be almost nebulous.

Simply set out a marker? Look folks, we're still here you know ...

I get the impression with some Christians that they believe that something - anything - is better than nothing and that as long as it's 'out there' and seen then whatever it is is doing its job ... whatever its job is supposed to be ...

I can understand that but find it problematic.

Years ago, I remember hearing Ian Stackhouse ('The Gospel-Driven Church) speaking at a conference. He told how he'd been stuck in a shop for a while, unable to get out as a March for Jesus was passing and the customers had to wait for it to go by before they could get out.

The next day in church he heard people getting up and giving testimonies as to how wonderful the March had been and what a brilliant opportunity it was to witness ... etc etc ...

He chuckled to himself remembering the frustration, exasperation and rather colourful language of those customers who were in danger of getting parking tickets because they couldn't get back to the car parks until 'those bloody Christians' had marched past ...



Of course, there may well have been other people who thought the March was great and were attracted.

But we do well to remain 'grounded' and keep a sense of perspective.
 

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Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Truman White:

quote:

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Originally posted by Palimpsest:
There's an otherwise well regarded regional airline here where your snack comes with a slip of paper printed with a psalm. I find it creepy and hope that it's seen as evangelism and not an inside opinion on the likelihood of a successful flight.

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How would you feel if it came with a fortune cookie?

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Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The Church should be countering the consumerist values of our culture. That could be done through advertising, but I think it should be done carefully. Advertising is the means that consumerism uses to encourage people to consume more, and to consume the particular product or service advertised.

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I'd be interested to hear your views on churches who have obviously used media-savvy people to design their websites, which then give a wonderful impression of their "vibrant" and "growing" church with "awesome" worship and "anointed" or "life-changing" preaching. Is this (a) a church eager to promote a contemporary image and hope to draw in unchurched people; or (b) a church which has unconsciously imbibed consumerist values and is seeking to strengthen its position in the worship market-place?

We don't have actual church adverts on British TV, but I suspect that things are different in some other places ... the same questions could be asked.

(Personally I'd prefer a church which says, "We're a normal mixed bunch of people, sometimes we get things amazingly right and sometimes we get them terribly wrong, most of the time we manage to rub along together quite well with God's help, occasionally our services are fairly inspiring but more often they're pretty much routine, our Vicar has her foibles but we know she's doing her best ..." )

[ 24. November 2015, 09:29: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
 

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Posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger (# 8891) on :
 

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Originally posted by Gill H:
I remember when Cliff's 'Millennium Prayer' song came out (a version of the Lord's Prayer set to Auld Lang Syne) and a Christian lady I knew was terribly offended. Not on grounds of musical taste, but because she believed the Lord's Prayer was 'ours' and it shouldn't be out there in the world. You should come to church if you want to hear it!

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Meanwhile, could you clarify what you mean by 'prayer warriors'?

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Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

quote:

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Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The Church should be countering the consumerist values of our culture. That could be done through advertising, but I think it should be done carefully. Advertising is the means that consumerism uses to encourage people to consume more, and to consume the particular product or service advertised.

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I'd be interested to hear your views on churches who have obviously used media-savvy people to design their websites, which then give a wonderful impression of their "vibrant" and "growing" church with "awesome" worship and "anointed" or "life-changing" preaching. Is this (a) a church eager to promote a contemporary image and hope to draw in unchurched people; or (b) a church which has unconsciously imbibed consumerist values and is seeking to strengthen its position in the worship market-place?

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Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
On Sunday morning we were talking about Acts 5:13. The church meeting in Solomons Colonnade, having the favour of the people yet there was something that meant the people didn't dare to join the meeting. Whatever the Church was doing in those meetings (one assumes listening to the teaching of the apostles, praying, singing psalms) was a barrier to people joining the meeting. Yet, at the same time there were lots of people joining the church. We were speculating on what the Church was doing that they were not attempting to make the meeting open and accessible to everyone - and how many churches today seek to do just that.

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I must admit, I'd never come across the term 'prayer warriors' in anything but full-on charismatic churches which were influenced by 'prayer warfare' teachings to a greater or lesser extent.

I certainly came across people such as you describe in more conservative evangelical circles - as indeed I did in charismatic circles too - but I never heard them described as 'prayer warriors' as such.

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I certainly came across people such as you describe in more conservative evangelical circles - as indeed I did in charismatic circles too - but I never heard them described as 'prayer warriors' as such.

If my memory serves, such people were often referred to in hushed, reverent tones ... as though they were people particularly close to the Lord.

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Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I'd be interested to hear your views on churches who have obviously used media-savvy people to design their websites, which then give a wonderful impression of their "vibrant" and "growing" church with "awesome" worship and "anointed" or "life-changing" preaching. Is this (a) a church eager to promote a contemporary image and hope to draw in unchurched people; or (b) a church which has unconsciously imbibed consumerist values and is seeking to strengthen its position in the worship market-place?

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(Personally I'd prefer a church which says, "We're a normal mixed bunch of people, sometimes we get things amazingly right and sometimes we get them terribly wrong, most of the time we manage to rub along together quite well with God's help, occasionally our services are fairly inspiring but more often they're pretty much routine, our Vicar has her foibles but we know she's doing her best ..." )

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Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Sometimes they include things like a sermon archive, but one wonders whether anyone ever actually listens to such things outside of their own church community. I doubt it, to be honest.

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Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I know someone here who streams sermons from a variety of churches, some where he has been a member but more often something someone else has recommended. So, there is a surprisingly large number of people who will listen to archived sermons.

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Originally posted by Eutychus:
I think there's a difference between advertising and PR about a specific event and using media to try simply to "raise the profile" of Christianity and what it is.

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Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I hope you don't mind me commenting on this

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Originally posted by mr cheesy:

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Originally posted by Eutychus:
I think there's a difference between advertising and PR about a specific event and using media to try simply to "raise the profile" of Christianity and what it is.

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The difference being what...? Can you finish the thought, as I'm interested to hear more about what you mean by this.

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Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:


We don't have actual church adverts on British TV, but I suspect that things are different in some other places ... the same questions could be asked.

(Personally I'd prefer a church which says, "We're a normal mixed bunch of people, sometimes we get things amazingly right and sometimes we get them terribly wrong, most of the time we manage to rub along together quite well with God's help, occasionally our services are fairly inspiring but more often they're pretty much routine, our Vicar has her foibles but we know she's doing her best ..." )

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Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Why would anyone listen to a sermon by a random person at a random church?

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Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Sometimes they include things like a sermon archive, but one wonders whether anyone ever actually listens to such things outside of their own church community. I doubt it, to be honest.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

quote:

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Originally posted by Truman White:

quote:

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Originally posted by Palimpsest:
There's an otherwise well regarded regional airline here where your snack comes with a slip of paper printed with a psalm. I find it creepy and hope that it's seen as evangelism and not an inside opinion on the likelihood of a successful flight.

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How would you feel if it came with a fortune cookie?

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At least you can eat the fortune cookie.

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Originally posted by Eutychus:
There are several separate issues here getting confused.

One is whether a private company choosing not to run a particular type of ad consitutes a "ban" or infringement on free speech (as far as I'm concerned: no).

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Originally posted by mr cheesy:


Sometimes [church websites] include things like a sermon archive, but one wonders whether anyone ever actually listens to such things outside of their own church community. I doubt it, to be honest.

[...] I'm wondering whether we are past "peak church internet" and into territory where many will choose not to use this method of communication.

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Originally posted by Truman White:
The bishop responded, "Well they never said anything six months ago when they were offering a discount."

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As you say, showing this or nay will make sod all difference to takings. What kind of offence would it take to keep people from going to see the new Star Wars?

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Originally posted by Truman White:
What kind of offence would it take to keep people from going to see the new Star Wars?

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More Jar Jar Binks,* finding out George Lucas was involved in its making after all, the revelation the film was made solely to host the JustPray advert


*Jar Jar Binks - J. J. Abrams
Fools! We've been betrayed!
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Nah, I won't be going, I don't get to the pictures that much these days ... but I am something of a film buff.

The point several of us have been trying to make since more details became available is that DCM do appear to have dropped a catch by not informing the client (the CofE) of its change of policy.

It won't be the first time an agency has dropped a clanger like that - nor will it be the last ... the only difference this time is that there's a high-profile client (the CofE) and the post-hoc justification for the change has set the cat among the pigeons on social media and in the Daily Mail etc.

I think the CofE will have a good case for a refund or compensation of some kind - which is presumably the basis of the legal action that's been mentioned.

As for the discount ...

Do they expect us to believe that anyone pays rate-card for their ads?

There's more stretch in media rates than a box of elastic bands.

The CofE will have been booked in at a premium for a potentially popular film such as Star Wars and then offered a discount to make it look as if they were getting a bargain.
 

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Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
Symon Hill thinks thast people SHOULD be offended by the Lord's Prayer - it asks for a kingdom that isn't ruled by politicians, food for all people, cancellation of debts, forgiveness and so on.

[ 24. November 2015, 18:17: Message edited by: leo ]
 

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Posted by Uriel (# 2248) on :
 
As a Christian and a Star Wars fan, I would be pleasantly surprised if I found the Archbishop of Canterbury popping up before the screening and saying a prayer. But I recognise that those present who are just Star Wars fans would find it a bit odd, so I am happy that the prayer ad isn't there to make them feel uncomfortable.

And as a Christian and a Star Wars fan, I would be pleasantly surprised if Yoda delivered the sermon in my local church on Sunday. But I recognise that many who go to my church are just Christians, and not Star Wars fans, and would find it a bit odd, so I am happy that Yoda will not be delivering a message and making them feel uncomfortable.

Did someone in the Church House Communications Department not sit up and say "hang on, this is a really bad idea - it will play well with (some of) the Christians in the cinema, but for everyone else it will just be plain weird".
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I don't believe the CofE's communications bods are any more or any less competent than similar departments elsewhere - whether the Salvation Army, Baptists, Methodists or whoever else - although they'll be much better resourced.

I'm not sure I explained myself very well when I mentioned low audiences in Bognor on a wet Wednesday afternoon. Of course there are premium packages for big box office films. The point I was trying to make is that the rate wouldn't shift if anticipated numbers didn't materialise - ans that Truman's point about the potential effect on box office takings didn't apply.

I still think the ad was ill-advised and misconceived - even though it's well produced. I suspect the CofE's comms people were dazzled by a smart ad agency presentation - they won't have been the first nor will they be the last.
 

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Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Truman White:
It gets fishy when DCM say they won't show it because they reckon it will be "offensive." Implication is that it will scare people off coming to see the Star Wars movie and cost the cinema cash.

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quote:

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Originally posted by leo:
Symon Hill thinks thast people SHOULD be offended by the Lord's Prayer - it asks for a kingdom that isn't ruled by politicians, food for all people, cancellation of debts, forgiveness and so on.

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It is a prayer of radical discipleship that should be a challenge to western consumerism.

Though, the irony of the link is the bio piece at the bottom where we are told "his latest book is published this week".
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Well, Symon Hill has got to make a living somehow ... if I ever got a poetry collection published, for instance, I'd be pushing it on my blog ... and anywhere and everywhere else ...

But I take your point and think there's something a bit 'disco vicar' - as da yoof would say - about people like Symon Hill and other preachers/commentators I've seen jumping on this particular band-wagon to say, 'Look folks, you think this is all pwetty establishment, yeah? But actually, it's pwetty wadical ... like weally, weally wadical if we stopped to look at the actual words we'd all wealise how weally, weally wadical it is ...'



The thing is, nobody's listening to them any more than they are to Welby or the other establishment bugbears.

People have been railing against the CofE's assumption that the stable door is slightly ajar - and not wide and whoppingly open ... and with some justification.

I'm equally of critical of the self-styled right-on bloggers and commentators who think they're cool and 'down wiv da kids' and so on.

Radical my arse.

They're about as radical as a Sunday school picnic on a wet weekend in Bognor ...

I'm not saying that the Lord's Prayer and the Magnificat and other NT texts aren't radical - of course they are - but what isn't radical is spouting off on a blog as if you're hipper than thou and provide some kind of alternative ...

Nobody cares. Nobody's listening. Everyone has fucked off somewhere else.

We need to wake up to that, accept that fact.

As to what we do about it - well, the age of mass-market campaigns organised centrally - either by a state-church or some kind of pan-denominational initiative - as per the Billy Graham crusades of yore - is well and truly over. Even the CofE's comms team may learn that lesson from this incident at least.

It's over. It is finished.

We are marginalised. We are no longer at the centre. Yes, there are residual elements of Christendom, yes there is still some form of penumbra but it is diminishing ... and to be fair, for all its faults, the CofE establishment is at least trying to maintain some kind of Christian presence in the public domain - for better or worse.

I don't know what the answer is - I don't think there is one ... other than to act in a grass-roots way and get involved with whatever is going on wherever we are.

How sustainable that is remains to be seen.

I've often scoffed at forms of cafe church and trendy-wendy 'emerging' or Fresh Expressions experiments but I can sympathise with these attempts ... whatever tradition or churchmanship we represent or espouse the future is going to be grass-roots and low key.

My daughter's studying Illustration and tells me there's a move away from social media among some of the industry gurus. They'll post their work on Instagram once a week but invite anyone who wants to discuss illustrative issues to meet them in various cafes or bars ... they mount 'guerilla' exhibitions and 'happenings' ... it's a bit of a throw-back to the '60s in that sense ...

I don't know whether this represents a groundswell - perhaps they only want to meet acolytes and to get laid - who knows? But I do wonder whether there are parallels with low-key ways of 'doing church'.

It's name-drop time, but I was at a Poetry Masterclass residential with Carol Ann Duffy recently and she was encouraging us to set up our own mini-publishing houses and imprints rather than waiting years and years for the established and mainstream publishers to notice us.

'That's the future,' she said. 'Musicians are doing it ...'

Anyhow and at any rate - I think this incident - whatever the rights and wrongs and ins and outs - is just one of the spasms/death throes of Christendom (if I can mention that here) ... and whilst I don't believe that Christendom was all wrong, wicked or evil ... there were good, bad and indifferent aspects, like anything else - it's certainly had its day.

Who knows what the future holds? I'm not sure it holds much room anymore for the kind of co-ordinated and costly communications campaign that the CofE comms team had in mind. Bless 'em.
 

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Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :
 
mr cheesy:

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Why would anyone listen to a sermon by a random person at a random church?

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Gamaliel posted: It's over. It us finished. We are marginalised. We are no longer at the centre.

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Originally posted by Polly:

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Gamaliel posted: It's over. It us finished. We are marginalised. We are no longer at the centre.

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You say this like it's a bad thing?

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Originally posted by Martin60:


I am SO depressed that there is NOTHING visibly radical about the Church in the UK at all.

Apart from Steve Chalke of course.

[...]

Is there ANY Christian leadership in Britain? Let alone Europe. There are bright lights in America but it's high noon there.

It would seem that the paradigm of leadership outside Waterloo is dead. Where are the 7000 prophets God has hidden away? I see NOTHING happening, have seen NOTHING happening for ten years in four Anglican congregations. Nothing. Less than nothing. Greying decline. There are prophecy weekends and men's dining and one in hundred of those men and less with a story to tell.

Like that which inspired this thread, it's all so utterly small beer in a tea cup irrelevant.

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Originally posted by Enoch:
I was at a public meeting yesterday evening at which a lot of people ranted, largely fuelled by an entirely reasonable sense of grievance. Will they have changed anything? I suspect not.

Leadership is about doing something and getting other people to do things, not about saying things.

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Amen, Amen, thrice Amen!

Meetings generate far more hot air than action. I don't go to them any more. If folk want me to do things they ask me, then I do. Cut out the hot air middle man!
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
What Boogie said. I, too, have given up meetings - no more PCC, Deanery Synod, or Deanery 'Task Force' (don't ask....)! Result - lowered stress levels, fewer migraines, and more time to spend on family, pastoral work, arranging our non-Eucharistic services, chatting to peeps in our Community Centre café etc. etc.

Our small urban set-up seems to be experiencing quiet growth, not only in numbers at Sunday Mass, but also in peeps' personal faith. Perhaps the future for some churches, at least, lies in simply following Our Lord's commands to 'Do this in remembrance of Me', and to 'baptise in the name etc.' i.e. celebrate the Sacraments, and let the Holy Spirit work as She wills......

I.
 

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Posted by Stejjie (# 13941) on :
 
Yes, but...

Not everybody - and not every leader - is an activist like that. Not everyone's first instinct is to go and do something. Some of us need time to stop, think, consult - even pray! - about an issue before we do something about it.

Yes, there are times when there is the need for urgent action, and people and leaders like me don't always cope so well then. But there are also times when just doing something isn't the best thing. And I think leadership must include that time and space to consider the options and try and work out what's the best thing to do.

Now, granted, a lot of meetings within churches do contain a lot of hot air and waffle (and, IME, irrelevant chit-chat that could just as easily happen outside of the meeting). We could almost certainly cut down on the number of meetings, and/or the length of meetings, in order to do more useful stuff. But if we never meet and discuss things with each other in a useful way, if we're so busy doing stuff that we never ask each other (and God, if you're that way inclined) "what are we doing and why", then you end up doing something because something needs doing, without ever asking whether it's the right or best thing to do.

TL,DR: too many pointless meetings are rubbish. But "just doing" without thinking about isn't much better.
 

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Posted by Ramarius (# 16551) on :
 

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Gamaliel

There's no question as to the kind of era we're living in. The question is what can or should be done about it.

This ad was apparently unsuitable for the cinemas, but it's an attractive resource that's contributed to an ongoing conversation, and therefore I think it's worthwhile. But I agree that it's not going to change the world.

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
In some African places (I've especially seen it in Malawi), after a bus leaves town it stops and everyone is required to pray. The way this is done often struck me as rather aggressive. I've also wondered more than once if there is a relation with the driving skills of the guy behind the wheel.

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Originally posted by Ramarius:
... recognise that the way to reawaken faith in a community is as it's ever been - commitment, dedication, prayer, ...

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Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

Many church leaders start out as radical visionaries with fire in their bellies but get worn down over years of dealing with the petty minutiae of church life, pacifying the folk who have become "upset" by something that someone has said, and being horrified at the insular and small-minded perspectives of so many Christians. Can you really blame them if they end up losing their enthusiasm, going through the motions and serving the system?

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Originally posted by Albertus:
I fear that your understanding of faith is mistaken. If you have evidence- of the positivistic scientific kind which I suspect you mean- then in a sense faith is redundant.

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Originally posted by SusanDoris:

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Originally posted by Ramarius:
... recognise that the way to reawaken faith in a community is as it's ever been - commitment, dedication, prayer, ...

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Very interesting post, but the phrase 'reawaken faith' struck me particularly. My opinion of course is that for one to have faith in something one needs to have access to evidence that the items in which one is supposed to have faith actually exist.

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:


Interestingly, some Baptists I know have told me that they thought the ad made church look 'wierd' ... I daresay they would prefer plain and simple to women wafting around in white gowns (as per one scene) ... but I suspect any kind of church service would potentially look 'weird' in a cinema ad.

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
My daughter's studying Illustration and tells me there's a move away from social media among some of the industry gurus. They'll post their work on Instagram once a week but invite anyone who wants to discuss illustrative issues to meet them in various cafes or bars ... they mount 'guerilla' exhibitions and 'happenings' ... it's a bit of a throw-back to the '60s in that sense ...

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:


Interestingly, some Baptists I know have told me that they thought the ad made church look 'wierd' ... I daresay they would prefer plain and simple to women wafting around in white gowns (as per one scene) ... but I suspect any kind of church service would potentially look 'weird' in a cinema ad.

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Out of interest, do you know who those people in the white gowns were? Were they members of some monastic order?

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The Community of St Anselm is made up of 36 young men and women from across the UK and around the world. They have become the first members of the Archbishop of Canterbury’s new monastic-inspired community at Lambeth Palace – a programme for Christians aged 20-35 to spend a year praying, studying ethics and theology, and serving the poorest in local communities.

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I don't think I've ever seen anyone pray with hands together other than in primary schools.

I don't recollect ever seeing adult Anglicans pray that way ... I'm trying to think. Perhaps in my childhood ... late '60s/early '70s.

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The other day I saw a couple, who looked Japanese, walk back from the communion rail with their palms clasped together like that. It made me think because I've never ever seen anyone walking like that.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
@Ramarius, I'm not sure what un-churched or 'unbelievers' are saying about the ad itself - but it's caused a bit of a storm on social media ... with the most risible and noticeable comments coming from those who rail about the ad being banned but who clearly don't have the first idea about Christianity ...

You know the kind of thing. Indeed, there was a snap-shot from a social media exchange shared on another site (I can't find it now) in which some pretty dense people were railing about the banning and saying how the 'Lord's Prayer is ours, it belongs to this country ...'

When someone pointed out that it actually came from the Middle East the response was something like.

'No way. Of course it doesn't come from the bloody Middle East ...'

When it was pointed out that Christianity itself comes from the Middle East the response was along the following lines.

'Yeah, right. So if Christianity came from the Middle East, how come the Bible is written in English?'



Ok - that represents one view, and thankfully (hopefully) a minority one ...

My suspicion would be that most people who aren't 'practising' Christians aren't really that bothered about the content of the ad - they might have an interest in the fact that it wasn't shown and the reasons why that might be - but as for the ad itself I would expect a range of reactions running the gamut from complete indifference to 'well, it looks nice and is well-made ...'

I think it was somewhere upthread that someone (perhaps it was you, Ramarius?) said that a non-Christian friend had found it rather moving.

I think some people might find it so.

To my mind, though, that neither justifies the expense nor makes the ad any better conceived than it actually is ...

I suspect had it been shown it wouldn't have caused much of a stir - certainly nowhere near as much of a stir as was caused by it's 'banning'.

Most people, I suspect, munching their pop-corn would have simply thought, 'Oh yeah, right, it's a churchy ad asking us to pray ... so what?'

Why should we expect to have any more impact than that?

I could see it working in tandem with other forms of contact/engagement ... say if it were on a CD given to enquirers with some background details, sample prayers, interviews and testimonies and so on ... but taken in isolation between an ad for Kia-ora and a trailer for the latest Bond movie, I don't see it having a great deal of impact whatsoever. If anything, it might smack of desperation ... 'They must be desperate to get bums on seats if they go to the expense of making and screening that ad ...'
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Time was, back in the day, in my full-on charismatic days we went through a phase of going out and worshipping in the city centre - you know the stuff, clapping and dancing charismatic style - the singing in tongues gambit ...

For some reason there was this idea that if people saw us worshipping in that way the Holy Spirit would convict them and they'd fall down crying, 'Surely God is among you!' without the need for anyone to preach or give testimony ...



I was never comfortable with this approach and it didn't last long. Before long it was back to the usual street-preaching stuff and the sketch-boards and so on in what was then a more conventional evangelical street-witness style.

Indeed, I can remember some awkward moments when conservative evangelicals were doing their stuff with flip-boards and leaflets and so on and we came bouncing along and dancing up and down - queering their pitch. Not pretty.

I don't know what it is about some Christians, they seem to think that all they have to do is sing or pray in the street 'to be seen by men' (isn't there some kind of warning in the Gospels about that? ) and lo and behold everyone will be convicted of their sin and fall on their knees in repentance.

We used to think we were doing a good job with all that bouncing around in the street and accosting passer's-by, trying to pray for people to be healed and so on ... I expect most people thought we were nutters.

There's a similar level of naivety (or desperation?) about this ad, I think. It's not been thought through properly. As if by screening an admittedly well-produced ad that, in and of itself, is going to influence more people to pray over the festive season than might otherwise be the case.

How the heck do you even begin to measure that?

At best, I think it would have served as some kind of 'brand reinforcement' - 'The Church of England. We're still here you know ...'

Any more than that?

Nah, sorry. Don't think so.
 

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Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :
 

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Originally posted by mr cheesy:
The other day I saw a couple, who looked Japanese, walk back from the communion rail with their palms clasped together like that. It made me think because I've never ever seen anyone walking like that.

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
... For some reason there was this idea that if people saw us worshipping in that way the Holy Spirit would convict them and they'd fall down crying, 'Surely God is among you!' without the need for anyone to preach or give testimony ...

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Many years ago, I encountered a group who I think were some sort of Exclusive Brethren preaching in the local market place where I then lived at about 7pm on a summer's evening. Apart from some pigeons and me (who happened to be walking though), the place was completely deserted.

I think they imagined that they were obeying some sort of command. As long as they proclaimed the message in the market place, the Lord would bring to them those that he wished to elect. If nobody responded, that merely confirmed their belief that the rest of the world's population were poor benighted sinners and more fool them.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I've come across Exclusive Brethren types who do that sort of thing as well. I remember some doing it outside Ripon Cathedral while a service was in progress ...

On the efficacy or otherwise of evangelism ... yes, sure, I'd rather people did some form of evangelism rather than my way of not doing any ...



So, on one level I sort of applaud the CofE for 'having a go' ... but I'm not particularly sanguine about how 'effective' the ad would have been if shown.

As someone who's worked in advertising and marketing to a certain extent I can be as cynical about that as I am about certain forms of evangelism.

I'm not sure I'd be quite as puritanical as some here - 'That money could have been given away to the poor ...' (hmmm ... who was it who said that originally? ) but I do have reservations about it as best use of resources ...

I'm not saying that whatever churches produce should look slipshod, home-made and manky. The production values on this ad are very good indeed - it's not cringe-worthy in that respect.

I think it was SvitlanaV2, rather than myself, who came up with the CD idea. I happened to agree with her and thought that this would be a good idea.

The giving away of CDs is a bit old-hat now ... but I could see it working in the right context and with the right mix of material.

However, the key to evangelism, of course, is actually getting alongside people, getting involved and - as Eutychus reminds us - seeking to build the Kingdom. If that leads to people joining our churches then great. If it leads to people not joining our churches but benefitting in some way then that's great too as far as I'm concerned.

Ideally, it should be both but we don't live in an ideal world.
 

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Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
The ad was played in our church last Sunday, during the usual announcements. Nothing at all wrong with it, quite a lot good in fact, but I can see no reason why any cinema ought be compelled to screen it.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
'Compelled'?

Who is saying that cinemas ought to be 'compelled' to screen it?

I don't see anyone arguing for that here. Some people are saying that, all things being equal, the ad should have been shown, but no-one, as far as I can see, is saying that cinemas should be 'compelled' to show it.


 

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