UBB.classicTM 6.5.0
quote:Anything on-line yet. My googling is failing to turn anything up.
Originally posted by shamwari:
TV and newspaper pics
quote:Google News gave me scores of reports like this one if that's any help:
Originally posted by Humble Servant:
quote:Anything on-line yet. My googling is failing to turn anything up.
Originally posted by shamwari:
TV and newspaper pics
quote:Because his boss had told us he wants a gentler, kinder politics. Then he recruits a man with a reputation for the opposite, who promptly calls someone mentally ill, and then says he said it because he felt the other guy had sleighed him. Then refused to apologise until Corbyn had had a word with him. All predictable if you remember when Livingstone led the GLC. If you want to go back to those days, fair enough; but if you want it to be gentler and kinder, you've got to pick you team a bit more carefully.
Originally posted by Penny S:
Why should Livingstone apologise for likening politics to a playground scrap? The sound effects from the chamber don't exactly suggest anything very different.
quote:Well it is Christmas! A lot of sleighs about.
Originally posted by Humble Servant:
[QUOTE]... then says he said it because he felt the other guy had sleighed him. ...
quote:My facebook feed has a note from someone involved in the demonstration. The reports of it being a violent protest, of damage done or anything like that is false - it is a manipulated story with no real basis. As I know people in Walthamstow, and I think I would have heard if there had been something more violent.
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
The only story I've seen is that Stella Creasy's house was targeted by protesters. However, this looks like a fake - the photo which has been shown is in fact of a protest starting at a mosque, and going to the Labour office. No damage to the office, so maybe shamwari can come up with an accurate link?
quote:The Corbyn bandwaggon is attracting a number of fringe types, who haven't much to do with Labour in any way shape or form. The comparison with Militant fails as Jeremy Corbyn is no Dave Nellist or Terry Fields although I've no doubt there are hard-left types there, who leave me way behind.
Originally posted by Touchstone:
I think the sudden elevation of Jez from obscure hard-left hack to saviour of British politics has some of the characteristics of a religious revival. Many people have invested completely unrealistic hopes in him which are bound to be disappointed.
Just as Jesus can't be blamed for the atrocious behaviour of many of his supposed followers, Corbyn is not responsible for his new-found disciples working out their resentments and tribalism.
quote:It's almost as though the UK media have got some problem with Corbyn...
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
[The reports of it being a violent protest, of damage done or anything like that is false - it is a manipulated story with no real basis.
quote:Details.
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Incidentally, the lie about the demo outside Stella Creasy's home travelled the length of Fleet St, with few retractions, as it became clear that it was a lie. The honourable exception was the Mirror, which published the photo of the demo, and correctly identified it as not outside her home.
But there are many lies about Corbyn. As the OP says, God help us.
quote:He doesn't fit the narrative. He keeps wrong-footing people, the media more than his fellow politicians, I think.
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
quote:It's almost as though the UK media have got some problem with Corbyn...
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
[The reports of it being a violent protest, of damage done or anything like that is false - it is a manipulated story with no real basis.
quote:Dictator? So why did he allow a free vote?
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
Jeremy Corbyn is like all hard line socialists. He's a dictator and a bully.
quote:"An honest, a principled, a decent and a good man". There's a lot more evidence for that than your assertion.
Although my right honourable friend the Leader of the Opposition and I will walk into different division lobbies tonight, I am proud to speak from the same Despatch Box as him. My right honourable friend is not a terrorist sympathiser, he is an honest, a principled, a decent and a good man and I think the Prime Minister must now regret what he said yesterday and his failure to do what he should have done today, which is simply to say ‘I am sorry’.
quote:If saying someone may lose office because of the way they vote in the commons is bullying, what is a general election ?
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
He allowed a free vote because of the potential fallout from his shadow cabinet. I saw Ken Livingstone imply that they can be dealt with later by de-selection. If that isn't bullying, what do you call it? I don't need the right wing press to be filled with horror at the thought that men like Corbyn and McDonnell may some day be leaders on the international stage.
quote:I think, PaulTH, that you're being serious, but this is a fine example of the received narrative that Corbyn fails to fit.
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
Jeremy Corbyn is like all hard line socialists. He's a dictator and a bully. Having opposed his own party countless times, he made it clear what view he takes of those members who opposed him in the Commons vote. Alan Johnson in his speech fully expected to "hear from" the leadership over his voting intentions, and Ken Livingstone hinted in a TV interview that de-selection was a reasonable option for opponents of the leader's pacifist stance. Given Corbyn's parliamentary record, this is hypocrisy of the highest order, to be expected from his political ilk.
quote:Ken Livingstone is a bully, I think. That doesn't mean that Corbyn is. Corbyn is a man of principles, who stands by what he believes, rather than just changing according to what makes him popular. He is also someone who is prepared to listen to those who disagree with him.
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
He allowed a free vote because of the potential fallout from his shadow cabinet. I saw Ken Livingstone imply that they can be dealt with later by de-selection. If that isn't bullying, what do you call it? I don't need the right wing press to be filled with horror at the thought that men like Corbyn and McDonnell may some day be leaders on the international stage.
quote:I don't dispute that Corbyn is a man of principle. But what if his principles are wrong and blinkered by his ideology? The day after Alan Henning was beheaded by Jihadi John, Jeremy Corbyn said it was "the result of war and jingoism." I beg to differ. In WW2 the Nazi's, notwithstanding their vile treatment of Jews, Gypsies and gays, treated British prisoners of war according to the Geneva Convention. They were given food and medical treatment where needed. The Japanese tortured many of their prisoners and received international ostracism for doing so. Alan Henning was a humanitarian worker who put his life on the line to help people.
Originally posted by Schroedinger's Cat:Ken Livingstone is a bully, I think. That doesn't mean that Corbyn is. Corbyn is a man of principles, who stands by what he believes.
quote:Maybe they will also look at the government and consider how many deaths will happen earlier as a result of recent changes to welfare and health policies. Just as certain but less dramatic.
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
quote:I don't dispute that Corbyn is a man of principle. But what if his principles are wrong and blinkered by his ideology? The day after Alan Henning was beheaded by Jihadi John, Jeremy Corbyn said it was "the result of war and jingoism." I beg to differ. In WW2 the Nazi's, notwithstanding their vile treatment of Jews, Gypsies and gays, treated British prisoners of war according to the Geneva Convention. They were given food and medical treatment where needed. The Japanese tortured many of their prisoners and received international ostracism for doing so. Alan Henning was a humanitarian worker who put his life on the line to help people.
Originally posted by Schroedinger's Cat:Ken Livingstone is a bully, I think. That doesn't mean that Corbyn is. Corbyn is a man of principles, who stands by what he believes.
So why did Corbyn say that his treatment was the fault of the British state rather than condemning the barbaric, medieval philosophy of IS? This is the same as John McDonnel's claim that the violence of Irish terrorists and that of the state can be equated. I hope people wake up to how dangerous this new Labour leadership is while we still have time.
quote:That's a bogus analogy. You may have the opinion that changes to welfare and health policies can cause deaths. Those who formulate such policies may disagree with you and only time will tell. But we know what happened when Jihadi John beheaded Alan Henning with a knife. Neither Corbyn, McDonnell nor Livingstone can bring themselves to condemn out of hand, the vile terrorists who assault us. So they are dangerous people in which to place our trust.
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Maybe they will also look at the government and consider how many deaths will happen earlier as a result of recent changes to welfare and health policies. Just as certain but less dramatic.
quote:You say that as if condemning anyone out of hand is a good thing.
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
Neither Corbyn, McDonnell nor Livingstone can bring themselves to condemn out of hand, the vile terrorists who assault us. So they are dangerous people in which to place our trust.
quote:This was the stance of the British government throughout the Irish Troubles. They consistently refused to grant any political status to IRA terrorists, who in their turn demanded to be treated as prisoners of war. As we were never at war with Ireland, the terrorists were wrong. I'm not sure how we can make it work here. As with most terrorist organisations, the enemy is a phantom, not a person or a state. I would agree with treating them as the criminals they are.
Originally posted by hatless:
We must define terrorism as a crime, not war.
quote:Well perhaps we don't live on the same planet. I'm quite prepared to condemn out of hand an organisation that kidnaps a relief worker bringing humanitarian aid to a war zone, and then publicly beheads him with a knife. If you don't feel that these actions are worthy of condemnation, please enlighten us. If any of our political leaders don't want to condemn this, they I know they are people I can't ever vote for. As to what a mythical religious figure may have said: he didn't know the world we live in any more than we know the world he lived in. Terrorism must always be condemned and politicians who refuse to do so should be shunned at the ballot box.
Originally posted by Dafyd:
You say that as if condemning anyone out of hand is a good thing.
If I recall correctly, there was some religious figure who said something on the subject.
quote:Not only that. Being 'a man of principle' does not make one a good person or raise one above other people. It has very little to do with it. Stalin wasn't one. Nor was Mao. Both Lenin and Trotsky were 'men of principle', bad principles which had a bad influence on how they lived and what happened to those around them.
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
I don't dispute that Corbyn is a man of principle. But what if his principles are wrong and blinkered by his ideology? The day after Alan Henning was beheaded by Jihadi John, Jeremy Corbyn said it was "the result of war and jingoism." ...
quote:Yeah, maybe Mr Corbyn should have said something like "There is no doubt that the so-called Islamic state group has imposed a reign of sectarian and inhuman terror in Iraq, Syria and Libya. And there is no question that it also poses a threat to our own people."
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
Neither Corbyn, McDonnell nor Livingstone can bring themselves to condemn out of hand, the vile terrorists who assault us.
quote:Gosh. If only someone in this thread had linked to Corbyn's speech to the house.
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
What would Jeremy Corbyn propose we do in this situation?
quote:You might claim that it's overly optimistic to think that could happen. To which one replies by asking whether it isn't even more optimistic to think that bombing Isis is going to do anything except kill civilians?
Those negotiations need to involve all the main regional and international powers with the aim of establishing a broad-based government in Syria that has the support of the majority of its people.
In the context of such a settlement internationally backed regional forces could help to take back territory from Isil. But its lasting defeat in Syria can only be secured by Syrians themselves.
quote:Ok. I hereby condemn Isis.
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
quote:Well perhaps we don't live on the same planet. I'm quite prepared to condemn out of hand an organisation that kidnaps a relief worker bringing humanitarian aid to a war zone, and then publicly beheads him with a knife. If you don't feel that these actions are worthy of condemnation, please enlighten us. If any of our political leaders don't want to condemn this, they I know they are people I can't ever vote for.
Originally posted by Dafyd:
You say that as if condemning anyone out of hand is a good thing.
If I recall correctly, there was some religious figure who said something on the subject.
quote:We can all give our views on this, but I doubt if we'll say anything that wasn't said in the House of Commons last Wednesday. The French and others, some in the Middle East, have sought our help, and I think it's right that we give it. I know many people here and elsewhere disagree.
Originally posted by Ricardus:
I know a few posters have already drawn attention to the 'we must do something, this is something, let's do it' fallacy, but it bears repeating.
quote:Previously you were objecting that Corbyn et al did dispute that Isil was a problem. Now you're saying nobody disputes that it's a problem.
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
Nobody disputes that Isil is a Middle Eastern problem which needs to be solved in the region, by local people.
quote:Please forgive me if I'm being obtuse here, but I don't understand a word of this. Nobody disputes that Isil is a problem. What we dispute is how best to deal with it. David Cameron's government has decided that we should join with France and other countries in attacking Isil with air strikes. I personally support that position. Jeremy Corbyn disagrees, a position he's perfectly entitled to hold. But like many other of Mr Corbyn's views with which I disagree, I'm ready to challenge him. I doubt if we agree about much.
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Previously you were objecting that Corbyn et al did dispute that Isil was a problem. Now you're saying nobody disputes that it's a problem.
Do Corbyn et al not count as anybody?
quote:But how this scales up to party politics and state-level decisions is not easy to discern (at least not for me).
Originally posted by Martin60:
Again, He gave a blueprint how individuals should behave.
quote:The shadow foreign secretary was always going to have to have a major role, you could argue for opening or closing, but each has definitie pros and cons. If the government were opening with the pro argument, it made sense for the opposition to open with anti.
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:But how this scales up to party politics and state-level decisions is not easy to discern (at least not for me).
Originally posted by Martin60:
Again, He gave a blueprint how individuals should behave.
Previously on this thread Corbyn's willingness to allow Hilary Benn to speak last in the Syria debate has been held up as an example of his open-mindedness, which I'd say is a Christian virtue in individuals.
But it also meant the last word from the shadow cabinet was in favour of air strikes; this could also be seen as a clever piece of political calculation: sending in someone else to do the realpolitik and provide a sense of cross-party unity faced with an international crisis, whilst allowing Corbyn's principles to remain (apparently) unsullied.
quote:Exactly. It's my mirror-image hope as of this morning that should Marine Le Pen gain further ground in France, she'd sort of do the same thing in reverse, and let her minions broker semi-sensible compromises with saner politicians while her ideology stays intact above the fray.
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
The cynic in me thinks that Corbyn allowed a free vote because he knew full well that he could never get his own MPs to agree with him in a month of Sundays. This way he comes out of it looking open-minded and principled, instead of looking like a woeful leader if he’d whipped the vote and had 50 or more of his own MPs rebel.
quote:Every great general has always relied on their lieutenants. To my mind, that's where the problem is. The foot-soldiers seem delighted with the direction they're marching - it's the officers who are organising a mutiny amongst themselves.
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
My inner lefty really wanted to like Obi wan Kernobyn. However, the n° 1 priority of the Leader of Her Majesty’s Opposition is to get elected. I am becoming increasingly convinced that he utterly lacks the leadership abilities necessary for becoming Prime Minister.
quote:If Corbyn has a glaring weakness it is that he has never been keen on party discipline himself. There are some who have defied more party whips than Corbyn but not many.
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:Every great general has always relied on their lieutenants. To my mind, that's where the problem is. The foot-soldiers seem delighted with the direction they're marching - it's the officers who are organising a mutiny amongst themselves.
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
My inner lefty really wanted to like Obi wan Kernobyn. However, the n° 1 priority of the Leader of Her Majesty’s Opposition is to get elected. I am becoming increasingly convinced that he utterly lacks the leadership abilities necessary for becoming Prime Minister.
quote:I'd be quite interested in the thoughts of French-based shipmates on the current results in France.
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Exactly. It's my mirror-image hope as of this morning that should Marine Le Pen gain further ground in France, she'd sort of do the same thing in reverse, and let her minions broker semi-sensible compromises with saner politicians while her ideology stays intact above the fray.
quote:Fat chance, though probably more than with Jean-Marie.
Originally posted by Eutychus:
It's my mirror-image hope as of this morning that should Marine Le Pen gain further ground in France, she'd sort of do the same thing in reverse, and let her minions broker semi-sensible compromises with saner politicians while her ideology stays intact above the fray.
quote:I think all I have really have to say is how unutterably depressed I am. We’ll have to wait and see how the “everyone but the FN” candidates do with forming a united “Republican front” to keep the evil racist xenophobic populist bigots out in the second round, but I have to admit to not being overly optimistic.
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:I'd be quite interested in the thoughts of French-based shipmates on the current results in France.
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Exactly. It's my mirror-image hope as of this morning that should Marine Le Pen gain further ground in France, she'd sort of do the same thing in reverse, and let her minions broker semi-sensible compromises with saner politicians while her ideology stays intact above the fray.
quote:Well, that might explain why a raid involving precisely four aircraft was described by Mr Fallon as "the full force of the RAF" ...
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
This report is from a year ago, but with the news that Typhoons have been deployed to Akrotiri it doesn't look like things have improved.
quote:No - surely the key is in the title - to lead the opposition.
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
the n° 1 priority of the Leader of Her Majesty’s Opposition is to get elected.
quote:That's a matter of opinion. Even if we give him the benefit of the doubt with regards to terrorist sympathies, he's certainly prepared to hang out with those kind of people. Ken Livingstone's views are a disgrace to any political party. Corbyn was the Chair of the "Stop the War" movement until he was elected Labour Leader. He is attending their dinner this week. The same organisation which put on its website that the Paris victims had reaped the whirlwind of Western interventionism, and that Isil fighters can be likened to anti-Franco fighters in the Spanish Civil War. This man associates with some sickening people!
Originally posted by hatless:
It appears that you don't disagree with Jeremy Corbyn so much as with a fantasy, a Corbyn construct that has little in common with the actual guy.
quote:Only if you intend to stay in opposition forever. Maybe this is Jezza’s cunning master plan, but if so, I can see why his MPs aren’t very keen on it.
Originally posted by leo:
quote:No - surely the key is in the title - to lead the opposition.
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
the n° 1 priority of the Leader of Her Majesty’s Opposition is to get elected.
quote:If it is, there are some of us who wish him every success in this cunning plan - and I'm not a Conservative.
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
Only if you intend to stay in opposition forever. Maybe this is Jezza’s cunning master plan, ...
quote:What was the context of this comparison? Was it something like...
The same organisation which put on its website that the Paris victims had reaped the whirlwind of Western interventionism, and that Isil fighters can be likened to anti-Franco fighters in the Spanish Civil War.
quote:They have to stay in with Big Business. If it were not for corporate shindigs Blair, Brown and co would never get near a tasty lobster. Hilary Benn doesn't want to suffer that fate.
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
This discussion should also be placed within the context of Hilary Benn using the example of the International Brigades (fighting against Franco), to support Cameron's war.
I can tell you that this made a few jaws drop, since the Brigades are something of a totem in the left. Another comment I have heard quite a lot is, why can't Benn show as much passion as he did supporting war, in supporting the poor and disabled against Tory cuts? But there you have the conundrum of the Blairites.
quote:Lots of jokes about Benn going around. He did the best pro-war speech since Blair; and he did the best summing up of a Tory motion since Macmillan (or Disraeli, or take your pick).
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:They have to stay in with Big Business. If it were not for corporate shindigs Blair, Brown and co would never get near a tasty lobster. Hilary Benn doesn't want to suffer that fate.
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
This discussion should also be placed within the context of Hilary Benn using the example of the International Brigades (fighting against Franco), to support Cameron's war.
I can tell you that this made a few jaws drop, since the Brigades are something of a totem in the left. Another comment I have heard quite a lot is, why can't Benn show as much passion as he did supporting war, in supporting the poor and disabled against Tory cuts? But there you have the conundrum of the Blairites.
quote:How our faith is worked out at an individual level, answering only for ourselves and possibly our dependent relatives, is one thing. How it is worked out if one is in a position taking decisions affecting or committing others who may not share our beliefs is another.
Originally posted by Martin60:
So there's no way out of Babylon, i.e. organized violence, for Christians?
quote:Thank you, this is a neat skewering of one of the other things that irritate me when people try to make debates more complex than 'Who are the Goodies and who are the Baddies?'
Originally posted by Stetson:
What was the context of this comparison?
quote:I think it's the beards. As soon as a man grows a beard he loses all ability to let simplistic moralising stand in for reasoned thought.
After the lecture titled War, Words and Reason he said he was not advocating ‘sentimental illusions that all you had to do was be nice to people’.
But what characterised human imagining was the effort to ‘imagine the other’,he said.
‘I think the hardest thing we face at the moment is that: how do we imagine the unimaginable mentality of somebody who thinks that God or justice or the future . . . is honoured by slaughter and barbarity?’
If we gave up on it we would have ‘given up on something colossal about our humanity’, he said.
quote:It's not a matter of charity, more of enlightened self-interest. If we give up on trying to understand what causes people to behave in such ways, we throw away what may be the best way of overcoming them. If we understand them, then we can tailor our response to them in a way which will be most effective. It's like a carpenter discarding his screwdriver in favour of a hammer because he doesn't understand how a screw works.
Originally posted by agingjb:
There is a level of wickedness such that, even to explain it will be seen as excusing it.
Whether there is any level of charity that can avoid this is questionable, but in any case the attempt to exercise such charity will probably fail, and will never be welcome.
quote:In case it's not obvious my use of the phrase 'vile terrorist sympathiser' for Williams was ironic.
Originally posted by agingjb:
And yet, if I've understood the posts above, Rowan Williams is labelled hypocrite for advocating that understanding.
quote:Maybe people, will vote for a change of government because they like a man of principle who tolerates dissent - a different style of politics to 'on message' 'spin doctored' presentation.
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
quote:Only if you intend to stay in opposition forever. Maybe this is Jezza’s cunning master plan, but if so, I can see why his MPs aren’t very keen on it.
Originally posted by leo:
quote:No - surely the key is in the title - to lead the opposition.
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
the n° 1 priority of the Leader of Her Majesty’s Opposition is to get elected.
Also I’m not sure how well he’s really doing on the “leading” front. Allowing a free vote as a way of avoiding a massive rebellion that would make you look weak and incompetent doesn’t impress me greatly in this respect.
quote:I hadn't noticed him tolerating dissent particularly well. What was that about a purge of the Shadow Cabinet coming up and MPs being deselected?
Originally posted by leo:
Maybe people, will vote for a change of government because they like a man of principle who tolerates dissent - a different style of politics to 'on message' 'spin doctored' presentation.
quote:That's certainly how his team will try to spin it, yes. Whether his fellow party members will stay on message is a different question...
Originally posted by leo:
quote:Maybe people, will vote for a change of government because they like a man of principle who tolerates dissent - a different style of politics to 'on message' 'spin doctored' presentation.
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
Also I’m not sure how well he’s really doing on the “leading” front. Allowing a free vote as a way of avoiding a massive rebellion that would make you look weak and incompetent doesn’t impress me greatly in this respect.
quote:The evidence for this upcoming purge is what exactly ?
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:I hadn't noticed him tolerating dissent particularly well. What was that about a purge of the Shadow Cabinet coming up and MPs being deselected?
Originally posted by leo:
Maybe people, will vote for a change of government because they like a man of principle who tolerates dissent - a different style of politics to 'on message' 'spin doctored' presentation.
quote:Oh, everybody says so.
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
The evidence for this upcoming purge is what exactly ?
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
There have been some delightful articles in the press recently. I'll see if I can find something suitable when I get a chance.
quote:I agree with Ariel here. It has to be remembered that Jeremy Corbyn has a long history of going against his own party line when his convictions required. But I read today, admittedly in the Daily Mail, and I take on board comments about the right wing press, that he hasn't ruled out a reshuffle of his shadow cabinet, to get rid of those who opposed him. This is quite consistent with the odious Mr Livingstone's comments that deselection could be the response to the MP's who voted against the leadership's position. To go back to the subject of this thread: Hypocrisy. I stand by my view that hard line socialists are always bullying control freaks. It was good enough for citizen Corbyn to oppose Blair and Brown. It isn't permissible for Alan Johnson, Margaret Beckett and Hilary Benn to oppose him.
Originally posted by Ariel:
I hadn't noticed him tolerating dissent particularly well. What was that about a purge of the Shadow Cabinet coming up and MPs being deselected?
quote:Have you met every single 'hard line' (Corbyn is er, not) socialist? That is rather presumptuous. There are many on the Ship who agree with Corbyn on many issues - are we all bullying control freaks?
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
quote:I agree with Ariel here. It has to be remembered that Jeremy Corbyn has a long history of going against his own party line when his convictions required. But I read today, admittedly in the Daily Mail, and I take on board comments about the right wing press, that he hasn't ruled out a reshuffle of his shadow cabinet, to get rid of those who opposed him. This is quite consistent with the odious Mr Livingstone's comments that deselection could be the response to the MP's who voted against the leadership's position. To go back to the subject of this thread: Hypocrisy. I stand by my view that hard line socialists are always bullying control freaks. It was good enough for citizen Corbyn to oppose Blair and Brown. It isn't permissible for Alan Johnson, Margaret Beckett and Hilary Benn to oppose him.
Originally posted by Ariel:
I hadn't noticed him tolerating dissent particularly well. What was that about a purge of the Shadow Cabinet coming up and MPs being deselected?
quote:Regarding cabinet reshuffles, Citizen Corbyn was never a cabinet or shadow cabinet minister under Mr Brown or Mr Blair, so I am not sure where the hypocrisy lies. If Mr Blair had demoted him from a cabinet role for insubordination, and he'd complained about this, then you would have a point.
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
I agree with Ariel here. It has to be remembered that Jeremy Corbyn has a long history of going against his own party line when his convictions required. But I read today, admittedly in the Daily Mail, and I take on board comments about the right wing press, that he hasn't ruled out a reshuffle of his shadow cabinet, to get rid of those who opposed him. This is quite consistent with the odious Mr Livingstone's comments that deselection could be the response to the MP's who voted against the leadership's position. To go back to the subject of this thread: Hypocrisy. I stand by my view that hard line socialists are always bullying control freaks. It was good enough for citizen Corbyn to oppose Blair and Brown. It isn't permissible for Alan Johnson, Margaret Beckett and Hilary Benn to oppose him.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
quote:That's not so long in eschatological terms really.
Originally posted by Martin60:
10,000 years
quote:With the Guardian siding with the Daily Mail on Jeremy Corbyn and the Daily Mirror a model of equivocation where is this left-wing press to speak of?
Originally posted by Ariel:
Only the left-wing press can tell the truth about Labour?
quote:As long as there's death, there are going to be at least some situations where refraining from taking life will inevitably lead to more loss of life.
Originally posted by Martin60:
As to whether the lie of redemptive violence, including the oxymoron of just war, can be bred out of us, that's the big one.
As a species, can we gain that one I/EQ point
quote:When was the last time the Labour Party was led by a person who tolerated dissent?
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:I hadn't noticed him tolerating dissent particularly well. What was that about a purge of the Shadow Cabinet coming up and MPs being deselected?
Originally posted by leo:
Maybe people, will vote for a change of government because they like a man of principle who tolerates dissent - a different style of politics to 'on message' 'spin doctored' presentation.
quote:Well Jez seemed to carve out a long term place in the PLP without being deselected, as did Benn the elder, and neither of them could be described as overly conformist. Of course, there are, and have been, control freaks in the Labour Party, notably, in recent years, one Anthony Blair, but dissent as a way of life is in the DNA of a party that owes "more to Methodism than Marxism".
Originally posted by Cod:
quote:When was the last time the Labour Party was led by a person who tolerated dissent?
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:I hadn't noticed him tolerating dissent particularly well. What was that about a purge of the Shadow Cabinet coming up and MPs being deselected?
Originally posted by leo:
Maybe people, will vote for a change of government because they like a man of principle who tolerates dissent - a different style of politics to 'on message' 'spin doctored' presentation.
Come to think of it, when has the Labour Party itself ever tolerated dissent?
quote:And there are many people in the country who don't agree with him. I'm not suggesting that everyone who agrees with him on certain issues is a bully. But the British people, in the past, have generally preferred moderate politicians. Tony Blair was often described as a Tory, and the right wing press accuse Cameron of being a Blairite. Unless Labour can recapture Scotland, it's unlikely to form a government without coalition partners. We don't want another Thatcher, but neither do many of us want a Jeremy Corbyn. At least I hope to God it turns out that way.
Originally posted by Pomona:
There are many on the Ship who agree with Corbyn on many issues - are we all bullying control freaks?
quote:Neither is Alan Johnson a member of the Shadow Cabinet, but in his speech last week he seemed to think the leadership may be after him in some way. Which Ken Livingstone made clear with his comments on deselection as constituency candidates. Quite sinsiter.
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Regarding cabinet reshuffles, Citizen Corbyn was never a cabinet or shadow cabinet minister under Mr Brown or Mr Blair, so I am not sure where the hypocrisy lies.
quote:Let me see.
Originally posted by Cod:
quote:When was the last time the Labour Party was led by a person who tolerated dissent?
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:I hadn't noticed him tolerating dissent particularly well. What was that about a purge of the Shadow Cabinet coming up and MPs being deselected?
Originally posted by leo:
Maybe people, will vote for a change of government because they like a man of principle who tolerates dissent - a different style of politics to 'on message' 'spin doctored' presentation.
Come to think of it, when has the Labour Party itself ever tolerated dissent?
quote:Well, PaulTH did say that hard-line socialists are bullying control freaks, which I suppose is a safe enough tautology.
Originally posted by Pomona:
PaulTH* - saying 'British people generally prefer moderate politicians' is quite different to saying 'all socialists are bullying control-freaks'. I would like you to qualify the latter statement that you made, please.
quote:Yes, just crossing with Doublethink, but I've seen 3 interviews now where Corbyn said, 'I am not a pacifist'.
Originally posted by Pomona:
Indeed, and Corbyn's pacifism is rather atypical for 'hard-line socialists' (assuming PaulTH* means statist socialists rather than anarcho-socialists/leftist anarchists, which particularly amongst Christians is closely associated with pacifism).
quote:Yes, I was reading it in the Telegraph. I can't now find the article.
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
I agree with Ariel here. It has to be remembered that Jeremy Corbyn has a long history of going against his own party line when his convictions required. But I read today, admittedly in the Daily Mail, and I take on board comments about the right wing press, that he hasn't ruled out a reshuffle of his shadow cabinet, to get rid of those who opposed him.
quote:True of most of the media, isn't it? The amount of misrepresentation (OK, lying) has been staggering. I think the Guardian has amazed me, every week a succession of poisonous articles about Corbyn, which usually caricature and distort to the max. Has the G. become neo-con?
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
I really wouldn't believe almost anything the Tprygraph wrote about Corbyn, perhaps his name and physical location - if you have cross checked with some other source.
Their coverage has been hysterical ever since he was elected. And often in terms of both fact and testable prediction - wrong.
quote:E.g. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/press/the-daily-telegraph-breached-editors-code-with-misleading-jeremy-corbyn-anti-se mite-front-page-a6683056.html
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
I really wouldn't believe almost anything the Torygraph wrote about Corbyn, perhaps his name and physical location - if you have cross checked with some other source.
Their coverage has been hysterical ever since he was elected. And often in terms of both fact and testable prediction - wrong.
quote:Who do you think chooses the pictures to go in the paper ?
Originally posted by Ariel:
Good God, that article actually has a picture of the man smiling. I didn't think he could.
quote:If we're swopping photos of him, here's one for you, courtesy of the Telegraph.
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Just for you, here is a picture of him smiling in a santa hat:
quote:If you used it for its best purpose, you will need to run down to the sewage works.
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:Yes, I was reading it in the Telegraph. I can't now find the article.
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
I agree with Ariel here. It has to be remembered that Jeremy Corbyn has a long history of going against his own party line when his convictions required. But I read today, admittedly in the Daily Mail, and I take on board comments about the right wing press, that he hasn't ruled out a reshuffle of his shadow cabinet, to get rid of those who opposed him.
quote:Things Corbyn Has Not Ruled Out
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
But I read today, admittedly in the Daily Mail, and I take on board comments about the right wing press, that he hasn't ruled out a reshuffle of his shadow cabinet, to get rid of those who opposed him.
quote:Thanks for that picture, which is at least 11 years old.
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
At least his hobby is relatively harmless.
quote:Apparently losing £100k/day and recently bought out by a pharma - see https://www.facebook.com/WDDTY/posts/632555463431736
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:True of most of the media, isn't it? The amount of misrepresentation (OK, lying) has been staggering. I think the Guardian has amazed me, every week a succession of poisonous articles about Corbyn, which usually caricature and distort to the max. Has the G. become neo-con?
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
I really wouldn't believe almost anything the Tprygraph wrote about Corbyn, perhaps his name and physical location - if you have cross checked with some other source.
Their coverage has been hysterical ever since he was elected. And often in terms of both fact and testable prediction - wrong.
quote:And as relevant as yours.
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:Thanks for that picture, which is at least 11 years old.
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
At least his hobby is relatively harmless.
quote:Corbyn's hobbies are also hamless.
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
At least his hobby is relatively harmless.
quote:I know Ken Livingstone likes newts and Ken Clarke goes birdwatching, but what are Jeremy Corbyn's hobbies? It would be nice to know that he goes Morris dancing, or even plays bridge, rather than has spent all his life in political meetings.
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Corbyn's hobbies are also hamless.
quote:I am pleased to hear that AmDram isn't for Corbyn.
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:Corbyn's hobbies are also hamless.
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
At least his hobby is relatively harmless.
quote:Seriously, he does collect photos of manhole covers. He is also very keen on cheese. Really he is Wallace in stealth mode.
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:I know Ken Livingstone likes newts and Ken Clarke goes birdwatching, but what are Jeremy Corbyn's hobbies? It would be nice to know that he goes Morris dancing, or even plays bridge, rather than has spent all his life in political meetings.
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Corbyn's hobbies are also hamless.
quote:Seriously, is that allegation true? It sounds like a symptom of Asperger's Syndrome. It is almost certainly illegal to discriminate against a person with this condition in selecting a party leader. It would, though, make life very hard work for the person doing such a job, relative to which herding cats would be a doddle.
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Seriously, he does collect photos of manhole covers. ...
quote:Why so? Why is an interest in manhole covers different from trainspotting, or the collection of fine regency porcelain, or any other semi-obsessive interest in a particular class of object?
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:Seriously, is that allegation true? It sounds like a symptom of Asperger's Syndrome.
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Seriously, he does collect photos of manhole covers. ...
quote:He sounds refreshingly English!
Originally posted by Ariel:
Jam, cheese, manhole covers (career going down the drain, evidently)... Corbyn also writes poetry, apparently.
quote:If they have such events I'm sure Mark Steel will have been on the stage. He certainly writes for SWC.
Originally posted by Anglican't:
But how many cricket spectators go to Stop the War Coalition fundraisers?
quote:It's nerdy. Fine Regency porcelain is something that most people can consider beautiful and understand someone taking an interest in, even if they don't share that interest themselves, because the porcelain was created with an aesthetic end in mind. Trainspotting and manhole covers fall into the nerdy category because, like pylons, they're industrial objects that aren't primarily intended to be appreciated for their aesthetic qualities. (I don't know, but I'm not sure that trainspotting is actually even about aesthetics.)
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Why so? Why is an interest in manhole covers different from trainspotting, or the collection of fine regency porcelain, or any other semi-obsessive interest in a particular class of object?
quote:Trainspotting is all about recording information: type of locomotive (or even coaches and wagons!), number, location and direction of travel. I agree, the aesthetic is hard to find.
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:It's nerdy. Fine Regency porcelain is something that most people can consider beautiful and understand someone taking an interest in, even if they don't share that interest themselves, because the porcelain was created with an aesthetic end in mind. Trainspotting and manhole covers fall into the nerdy category because, like pylons, they're industrial objects that aren't primarily intended to be appreciated for their aesthetic qualities. (I don't know, but I'm not sure that trainspotting is actually even about aesthetics.)
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Why so? Why is an interest in manhole covers different from trainspotting, or the collection of fine regency porcelain, or any other semi-obsessive interest in a particular class of object?
The mention of Dairylea reminds me that there's cheese and there's cheese...
quote:Honestly I suspect it's considered cooler to collect porcelain just because porcelain costs a lot. Trainspotting and man-hole picture-taking mainly cost time, and might get you dirty, so they're low class.
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:It's nerdy. Fine Regency porcelain is something that most people can consider beautiful and understand someone taking an interest in, even if they don't share that interest themselves, because the porcelain was created with an aesthetic end in mind.
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Why so? Why is an interest in manhole covers different from trainspotting, or the collection of fine regency porcelain, or any other semi-obsessive interest in a particular class of object?
quote:Why does Dairylea remind you of cheese?
Originally posted by Ariel:
The mention of Dairylea reminds me that there's cheese and there's cheese...
quote:You say that like it's a bad thing. It isn't.
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:It's nerdy.
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Why so? Why is an interest in manhole covers different from trainspotting, or the collection of fine regency porcelain, or any other semi-obsessive interest in a particular class of object?
quote:And would it matter if he did? After the fucking messes that neurotypical politicians have got us into I'd suggest it'd be no bad thing to give the differently wired a stab at it.
Originally posted by Pomona:
Being nerdy =/= being autistic. It is not helpful to categorise offbeat hobbies as being indicative of neurodiversity in themselves - Corbyn does not have any other symptoms of autism or other neurodiversity as far as I can see.
quote:Having an obsession with information or facts and figures is not a bad thing in itself but it is a move away from creativity, people-skills, etc. If you are a leader you need to have some element of being comfortable with people because in that kind of job you’re going to meet them a lot and have to deal with their concerns.
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
You say that like it's a bad thing. It isn't.
quote:When these appear next to 'politician', aren't they just fancy words for 'good at lying'?
Originally posted by Ariel:
creativity, people-skills
quote:Ariel, I would agree with you up to a point, but no further. The next time I hear a manager airily say something like "I need a high-level summary", I shall scream: the big picture is a mosaic, made up of small pictures, and to understand the whole truly, it is necessary to understand each of the elements that make it up. Addicts of high-level summaries are bullshitters using their "people skills" to cover up ineptitude, stupidity or laziness.
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:Having an obsession with information or facts and figures is not a bad thing in itself but it is a move away from creativity, people-skills, etc. If you are a leader you need to have some element of being comfortable with people because in that kind of job you’re going to meet them a lot and have to deal with their concerns.
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
You say that like it's a bad thing. It isn't.
A touch of nerdiness is one thing, but the more nerdy someone is the less suited for management they will usually be.
Not everyone has management potential, not everyone has nerd potential. The world has a use and a need for nerds as well and their contributions are often undervalued.
quote:Around here, most of our big screwups have been caused by "people people" merrily running their mouths and assuming that the "technical people" will pay their checks.
Originally posted by Ariel:
A touch of nerdiness is one thing, but the more nerdy someone is the less suited for management they will usually be.