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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Idle Benefit Scroungers
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
On the radio yesterday was a news story about how Maximus (a US company) are not providing value for money for the providing Word-Capacity Assessments. And it got me thinking. I realised that we are spending a huge amount of taxpayers money on a deeply flawed assessment system. Also, fraud in the benefits system is very low. Hence I began to wonder if we are spending more money on ensuring the people receiving the benefit are entitled to it, than is lost in fraud.
So here are the numbers:
Maximus provides Word-Capacity Assessments for Employment Support Allowance (not for PIP at the moment).
Cost of Maximus' WCA: £170m /yr
Cost of Employment Support Allowance Fraud: £130m
[ source ]
So, we are spending £170m to prevent £130m of fraud. Except, of course there's no evidence that WCA has reduced fraud. That strikes me as a really bad idea.
Of course, one of the counter arguments here, that is important is Moral Hazard. My thoughts here - sorry that's a little bit long but the point is that the risk of a moral hazard is used to justify desperately punitive policies.
Next thing that does need to be said is that the WCA is not just about fraud but about helping people find the right level of support for their needs and to help people back to the workplace if appropriate. In the lifetime of the WCA, it has been a spectacular failure in these terms. The headlines yesterday were about how the cost to the government is going up with worsening performance.
However, the reason for putting the comparison up is that the press have constantly talked in these terms ever since the WCA was introduced; for example: ***NOT BRAIN SAFE*** This is a link to the Daily Mail ***NOT BRAIN SAFE*** "Weeding out the work-shy"
If you look at the various Dept. Work & Pensions public statements of WCA they have talked about £x Bn savings from the Social Security budget because they expect to end up with less people getting support. So, perhaps in that sense it is value for money but, to do so, means taking support away from a large number of people. How appropriate that is has not been discussed. That's without getting into how spectacularly bad the WCA is - both in terms of its process and its outcomes with ridiculously high levels of successful appeals.
The reason for putting this in Purgatory is that I think there is an important debate to be had here about government policy. I do not think we are living in an effective democracy as public engagement seems to be totally lacking - the government are not being held to account. Seriously, is it appropriate that we are spending significantly more on WCA than is lost in fraud? More to the point, do people have any idea about this?
AFZ
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Work Capability Assessment?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Bibaculus
Shipmate
# 18528
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Posted
Not sure I follow all the details of this, but is the point:
Government is not spending money wisely, and they are not being held to account for it.
If so, then really that is nothing new. The state has become so complex that it is impossible to really know what is going on.
On the Today Programme this morning, a chap was talking about getting aid to people in Syria. Aid agencies had been criticised by an MP, but listening to the experienced chap, it was clear that the critical MP really hadn't appreciated the complexities of the situation.
It is probably the same with the dole. The issue is so complex, with so many permutations - if we do A to stop B, we end up with C, so have to do D, sort of thing - that none of us can really understand and criticise unless it happens to be our particular area of expertise.
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A jumped up pantry boy who never knew his place
Posts: 257 | From: In bed. Mostly. When I can get away with it. | Registered: Dec 2015
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Uriel
Shipmate
# 2248
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Posted
There is a problem when the media demonises a section of society, and government feels it has to be seen to be doing something.
My father is 74 and has limited mobility and a history of poor health, so has a blue badge for disabled parking. When the last wave of anti-benefit stories were around in the press, systems were tightened up again. He was summoned to an assessment centre to see if he deserved his blue badge, or whether he was a malingerer on the take. Various correspondence was required, forms to be filled out, and then 90 minutes with an occupational therapist, followed by an interview with a doctor, just to confirm that a 74 year old man with numerous health problems was indeed worthy of disabled parking.
The blue badge saves him about £50 a year. The consultation and assessment process would have costed far more. But the government could say that it had clamped down hard on potential benefit fraud, appeasing the neo-liberal right wing press who are concerned that my father might be scamming the tax-payer by parking inappropriately.
Posts: 687 | From: Somerset, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibaculus:
none of us can really understand and criticise unless it happens to be our particular area of expertise.
Well, up to a point. But the broad policy area - do we feel so strongly about losing X amount of money to behaviour Y, that we're willing to spend over X to stop it - is a perfectly valid area for discussion.
There certainly should be checks on the eligibility for state benefits, and prosecutions of those suspected of fraud. If abuses are rife, it bring the system into disrepute, and it diverts money from what those we want to have it to those we don't.
I think we've passed that point, to where the government is actively (a) trying to dissuade new claimants who are eligible from making legitimate claims and (b) trying to remove existing claimants who already have legitimate claims. That they are spending more money in doing this than is lost in fraud is a signal that this isn't a fraud-prevention scheme, but an ideological battle against this part of the benefit system.
If they were concerned about value-for-money, hiring more tax inspectors and shrinking the tax code would provide far more return. But that again is an ideological choice.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibaculus:
Not sure I follow all the details of this, but is the point:
Government is not spending money wisely, and they are not being held to account for it.
If so, then really that is nothing new. The state has become so complex that it is impossible to really know what is going on.
On the Today Programme this morning, a chap was talking about getting aid to people in Syria. Aid agencies had been criticised by an MP, but listening to the experienced chap, it was clear that the critical MP really hadn't appreciated the complexities of the situation.
It is probably the same with the dole. The issue is so complex, with so many permutations - if we do A to stop B, we end up with C, so have to do D, sort of thing - that none of us can really understand and criticise unless it happens to be our particular area of expertise.
What has happened here is that the government has decided to change the rules for disability benefits so as the save money. They did it in response to inflammatory articles like that to which Alien linked. The government appointed ATOS to administer the scheme, which was hurried into operation. ATOS failed so Maximus were appointed. It doesn't look like they are doing any better, indeed the National Audit Office, which inspects the books of government departments and agencies says so.
Note that, yet again, an IT system for the public sector has not been delivered on time.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
You have taxpayer's money - you give it to big business, they donate to Party Funds.
Give it to poor people and the ungrateful sods probably won't even vote for you.
Don't you people understand politics?
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Work Capability Assessment?
I am also not sure what it is. Internet search seems to be an assessment used for mental capacities or dementia for long term care in some places.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
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Posted
Yup--an explanation of what this is would be helpful for a good discussion.
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Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!
Posts: 5592 | From: Tallahassee, FL USA | Registered: May 2001
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Bibaculus
Shipmate
# 18528
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Posted
Ah, I see.
I actually quite liked the idea behind Big Society. Pity it never went anywhere. The idea of devolving things down to people nearer the people who need help seems to make sense. Sadly the government seems to think that the Gentleman in Whitehall really does know best, and seems very managerial. I don't think they even talk of rolling back the state anymore.
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A jumped up pantry boy who never knew his place
Posts: 257 | From: In bed. Mostly. When I can get away with it. | Registered: Dec 2015
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
There certainly should be checks on the eligibility for state benefits, and prosecutions of those suspected of fraud. If abuses are rife, it bring the system into disrepute, and it diverts money from what those we want to have it to those we don't.
I think we've passed that point, to where the government is actively (a) trying to dissuade new claimants who are eligible from making legitimate claims and (b) trying to remove existing claimants who already have legitimate claims. That they are spending more money in doing this than is lost in fraud is a signal that this isn't a fraud-prevention scheme, but an ideological battle against this part of the benefit system.
Yup.
quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
Yup--an explanation of what this is would be helpful for a good discussion.
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
Sorry, try this for the basics:
Wiki on WCA
AFZ
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
We have similar policies here over the pond. Economic crisis? Just charge it to the people who can least afford to pay - a) they can't complain easily, and b) hitting "scroungers" is always a popular political diversion tactic.
Personally I'd like to see better collection of corporate taxes. How about Starbucks pay some tax, or Amazon.
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibaculus:
Ah, I see.
I actually quite liked the idea behind Big Society. Pity it never went anywhere. The idea of devolving things down to people nearer the people who need help seems to make sense. Sadly the government seems to think that the Gentleman in Whitehall really does know best, and seems very managerial. I don't think they even talk of rolling back the state anymore.
If anything this government thinks that the gentlemen* in Fleet Street, the City and drinking clubs in St James's know better.
*term used in broadest possible sense.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
The Daily Heil articvle is deeply flawed.
For a start, ATOS assessments are not done by doctors but by nurses - many whom have been struck off. They're basically mercenaries.
Thedre is a large numbeer of folk who have been supposedly fit to work who have died within weeks of the assessment.
Also many people who rely on benefits to keep them mobile who have now lost their benefits and who are, thus, now unable to work but would have been otherwise.
[ 09. January 2016, 17:26: Message edited by: leo ]
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
You have taxpayer's money - you give it to big business, they donate to Party Funds.
Give it to poor people and the ungrateful sods probably won't even vote for you.
Don't you people understand politics?
That provides a very good explanation as to extortionate rents and the government's reluctance to do anything about it.
People with no, or extremely minimal job prospects who live on benefits have their rent paid by the government. So the landlords say 'O what a lovely government we have'. The tenants never get to see the money but can, if they wish, feature on a popular TV show watched by those 'hard-working families" who can then say boo and hiss.
The Capatalist merry-go-round goes around and around, surely we all know this by now.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The Daily Heil articvle is deeply flawed.
For a start, ATOS assessments are not done by doctors but by nurses - many whom have been struck off. They're basically mercenaries.
Leo
I'm on your side against David Cameron and his chum Gideon on this - but please get the facts right as it won't help our cause if you try to support the truth with hyperbole or with lies.
The tests may be done by nurses but none of them have been struck off either before or since. You cannot work with any vulnerable people if you have been removed by the NMC.
And, they are as mercenary as anyone doing a job for money. Whether we like that job or not isn't the issue nor is its morality: currently it's as legal as being (say) a lecturer, teacher, minister or even an MP.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I think we've passed that point, to where the government is actively (a) trying to dissuade new claimants who are eligible from making legitimate claims and (b) trying to remove existing claimants who already have legitimate claims. That they are spending more money in doing this than is lost in fraud is a signal that this isn't a fraud-prevention scheme, but an ideological battle against this part of the benefit system.
I agree -- legitmate cliams are being rejectd.The onus is now on the applicant to appeal not the Government to approve.
The trouble is that there were flaws in the old system that were pretty obvious and perhaps even accepted. Anecdotally, GP's admit that (in soem parts of the UK at least), they just signed the papers to get people onto higher benefits (disability vs unemployment). Some even signed to get troublesome patients out of the surgery.
That has now (sadly) impacted the vast majority of genuine people who have to go through a process that is reminiscent of the means test of the 1930's. You're down and Cameron and his buddies are kicking you: when they pick on bigger people than themselves, like the recent FSA enquiries, they quickly back down.
The only real answer is mass scale civil disobedience to make you bigger than them. Not even a few Police culd stop a determined and organised group of people occupying Government Buildings or even the homes of MP's. It has to remain civil and peaceful though: any damage or violence and it loses all its imapct.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
There is, of course, the interesting point that parking unemployed people on disability benefits is a Thatcher legacy ( link ).
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
There is, of course, the interesting point that parking unemployed people on disability benefits is a Thatcher legacy ( link ).
And another that while many people may be able to do some jobs, where are those jobs they can do? Anyone with limited mobility isn't going to be able to stack shelves, let alone dig roads or climb ladders.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
There is, of course, the interesting point that parking unemployed people on disability benefits is a Thatcher legacy ( link ).
Yep, something that's conveniently airbrushed out of the discussion.
One of the consequences of government-by-tabloid is that we end up spending a fortune to treat a minor problem and to hell with whoever gets caught in the cross-fire.
The only answer to that is for our democracy to work properly.
Here's a idea: Stop WCA completely. Let us say that to claim ESA, all you need is for your GP to sign the form. After all this will cost nothing (they already have to supply information for the WCA) and who knows a person better than their own doctor.
This would thus save £170m instantly. If we assume that fraud would thus go up by 100% (something for which there is no evidence) we'd still be saving £40m!
Of course that's not the issue as the WCA saves really big money (i.e. billions) by eliminating people who are eligible and by deterring people from claiming in the first place.
AFZ
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The Daily Heil articvle is deeply flawed.
For a start, ATOS assessments are not done by doctors but by nurses - many whom have been struck off. They're basically mercenaries.
Leo
I'm on your side against David Cameron and his chum Gideon on this - but please get the facts right as it won't help our cause if you try to support the truth with hyperbole or with lies.
The tests may be done by nurses but none of them have been struck off either before or since. You cannot work with any vulnerable people if you have been removed by the NMC.
And, they are as mercenary as anyone doing a job for money. Whether we like that job or not isn't the issue nor is its morality: currently it's as legal as being (say) a lecturer, teacher, minister or even an MP.
Sorry if I got this wrong - but I am sure I read it somewhere but can't find the source.
What I am sure about is that these nurses are often not qualified to assess mental health issues.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
The thing is, this is not an uncommon occurrence, even in business. If a department is judged based on (say) reduction in benefits costs, then it will report on this, and reduce this, irrespective of the actual cost.
The government has made it clear that they consider people on welfare to be scroungers (apparently, only MPs and royalty should be allowed to live off the state), so they make a point about the size of the benefit bill, and how much they are reducing it by (not a lot, and mostly unfairly), irrespective of the cost.
Of course suggesting that you save the government money (not part of the governments strategy) by not paying big business is anathema to this government.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
The thing is, this is not an uncommon occurrence, even in business. If a department is judged based on (say) reduction in benefits costs, then it will report on this, and reduce this, irrespective of the actual cost.
The government has made it clear that they consider people on welfare to be scroungers (apparently, only MPs and royalty should be allowed to live off the state), so they make a point about the size of the benefit bill, and how much they are reducing it by (not a lot, and mostly unfairly), irrespective of the cost.
Of course suggesting that you save the government money (not part of the governments strategy) by not paying big business is anathema to this government.
Yep
Which is why a proper debate is so desperately needed.
AFZ
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The Daily Heil articvle is deeply flawed.
For a start, ATOS assessments are not done by doctors but by nurses - many whom have been struck off. They're basically mercenaries.
Leo
I'm on your side against David Cameron and his chum Gideon on this - but please get the facts right as it won't help our cause if you try to support the truth with hyperbole or with lies.
The tests may be done by nurses but none of them have been struck off either before or since. You cannot work with any vulnerable people if you have been removed by the NMC.
And, they are as mercenary as anyone doing a job for money. Whether we like that job or not isn't the issue nor is its morality: currently it's as legal as being (say) a lecturer, teacher, minister or even an MP.
Sorry if I got this wrong - but I am sure I read it somewhere but can't find the source.
What I am sure about is that these nurses are often not qualified to assess mental health issues.
According to The People's Review of the Work Capability Assessment November 2012 in 2009, the Royal College of Nurses refused to accredit the training of Atos Nurse Assessors.
It appears that they only get 17 days of training but that is supposed to make them expert in the whole variety of illnesses of people they assess – and they go against the advice of GPs and other healthcare professionals who have known the client/patient over a long periods of time. Some of these assessments are made in little over 10 minutes.
The DWP claimed that all HCPs employed by Atos Healthcare were fully trained in Disability Assessment Medicine. However, Atos Healthcare does not stipulate that HCPs must hold the Diploma in Disability Assessment Medicine.
Now that nurses are trained to degree level, it is alarming that ATOS nurses are awarded a mere 25% of a degree by Derby Corporate uni.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Carex
Shipmate
# 9643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
(apparently, only MPs and royalty should be allowed to live off the state)
This isn't true.
Obviously Maximus and ATOS, along with many other large businesses, are in that category as well.
Posts: 1425 | Registered: Jun 2005
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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
Yup--an explanation of what this is would be helpful for a good discussion.
Sorry, try this for the basics:
Wiki on WCA
AFZ
Well, considering you put "Word" not "Work" in your OP, that is a lot more helpful! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!
Posts: 5592 | From: Tallahassee, FL USA | Registered: May 2001
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
I see David Cameron has declared a war on Poverty. Like nobody had noticed.
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
I see David Cameron has declared a war on Poverty. Like nobody had noticed.
As opposed to People in Poverty as heretofore?
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
Well, considering you put "Word" not "Work" in your OP, that is a lot more helpful!
Sorry
AFZ
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
I see David Cameron has declared a war on Poverty. Like nobody had noticed.
I suppose this is his anthem for the policy.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
If they were concerned about value-for-money, hiring more tax inspectors and shrinking the tax code would provide far more return. But that again is an ideological choice.
I am reminded at this point that some years ago the IRS had its budget for tax audits slashed "to save money". At that time, the tax enforcement machinery was yielding $6 in additional tax receipts for every dollar spent.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
That's a good ROI
I'm surprised it wasn't sold off to a private company. Bank of America?
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
If they were concerned about value-for-money, hiring more tax inspectors and shrinking the tax code would provide far more return. But that again is an ideological choice.
I am reminded at this point that some years ago the IRS had its budget for tax audits slashed "to save money". At that time, the tax enforcement machinery was yielding $6 in additional tax receipts for every dollar spent.
Audit budgets are slashed to benefit rich people. It takes more funds to pursue them than it does those with lesser income.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
I see David Cameron has declared a war on Poverty. Like nobody had noticed.
As opposed to People in Poverty as heretofore?
He probably feels that this justifies bombing the poor.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
If they were concerned about value-for-money, hiring more tax inspectors and shrinking the tax code would provide far more return. But that again is an ideological choice.
I am reminded at this point that some years ago the IRS had its budget for tax audits slashed "to save money". At that time, the tax enforcement machinery was yielding $6 in additional tax receipts for every dollar spent.
Audit budgets are slashed to benefit rich people. It takes more funds to pursue them than it does those with lesser income.
For a start the rich can afford accountants and lawyers. And I'll bet they arrange tax breaks from the legal fees.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
I am reminded at this point that some years ago the IRS had its budget for tax audits slashed "to save money". At that time, the tax enforcement machinery was yielding $6 in additional tax receipts for every dollar spent.
To bring this back to the UK, these kinds of cuts have been implemented here too - see article below detailing cuts to the units dealing with high net worth individuals and large corporations:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/26/tax-clampdown-under-threat-revenue-customs-job-cuts
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
I find this really difficult to swallow ... that efforts to get tax from individuals and companies who avoid are reduced, whilst cuts in benefits are made to some of the poorest people in the country.
We're gradually being taken back to a mid-1800's social economy - but with the money being wielded with a lot less social conscience.
I'm increasingly comparing the UK to Germany - quite similar countries in some ways, but in Germany you see a lot less supermarkets and a lot more local business - bakers, butchers, farm shops, independent chemists, etc. How is this possible? It's mainly because the state caps property rental charges. There is no need for everyone to grub round looking for the cheapest possible food. Compare that to the UK, where house prices for the mid to low income brackets are more or less tied to every spare penny that someone can afford after household bills. Who benefits from this? In the end it's about land price inflation and the sale of land as a commodity with no consideration of the implications. A myth of idle benefit scroungers merely takes everyone's attention off the major issue - that the reason so much is paid in benefits is that we all subsidise land price inflation through payment of rents for accommodation for people who cannot afford the rents. The question of how does someone make a transition from unemployed on housing benefit to employed and self-funding given the level of rent is lost in the latest "ideological" push to dispose of more low cost housing to buyers. And after the idle benefit scroungers lose their rights to subsidised housing they become equally idle homeless beggars. Mr Osborne and Cameron look very businesslike in their suits, but I've just about lost patience with all the looking after their mates and screw the rest attitude that is increasingly apparent. Gladstone would probably go and join the Green party.
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
Something that has never been clear to me is how figures are reached for estimation of benefit fraud. Benefit fraud is something that generally doesn't get found out, so what are estimates based on?
Not wanting to detract from the argument that the government is not spending money wisely - I agree with that wholeheartedly - but these figures are always thrown out, and it is never clear to me how they are reached. To me the issue is more that people who do claim benefits fraudulently are more likely to be very crafty at working the system than the people who genuinely need them, so they are likely to find a way to continue getting benefits regardless, while people who need the benefits are more likely to lose them.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Anglican't
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# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
I'm increasingly comparing the UK to Germany - quite similar countries in some ways, but in Germany you see a lot less supermarkets...There is no need for everyone to grub round looking for the cheapest possible food.
You're talking about the country that gave the world Aldi and Lidl, right?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
I'm increasingly comparing the UK to Germany - quite similar countries in some ways, but in Germany you see a lot less supermarkets...There is no need for everyone to grub round looking for the cheapest possible food.
You're talking about the country that gave the world Aldi and Lidl, right?
The best supermarkets in the UK.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
I'm increasingly comparing the UK to Germany - quite similar countries in some ways, but in Germany you see a lot less supermarkets...There is no need for everyone to grub round looking for the cheapest possible food.
You're talking about the country that gave the world Aldi and Lidl, right?
Both of these pay their workers substantially more than Tesco, Sainsbury and the other UK-born chains which are now playing 'catch-up'.
A factor that probably does help smaller stores and shopworkers too is that in Germany and Austria, shops aren't for as long (even now that regulations are more relaxed) and Sunday opening is heavily restricted.
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibaculus:
I actually quite liked the idea behind Big Society. Pity it never went anywhere. The idea of devolving things down to people nearer the people who need help seems to make sense. Sadly the government seems to think that the Gentleman in Whitehall really does know best, and seems very managerial. I don't think they even talk of rolling back the state anymore.
Oh the irony of the Big Society idea: I worked for a charity that was one of the inspirations for Cameron's Big Society from 2007 to 2012. In 2012 their funding from various sources had been cut, from a combination of recession and the first lot of council cuts, to the point they were cutting staff and I was made redundant. It is very difficult to continue to offer a service when the local authority is retrospectively cutting, for example, a year's funding for youth work provision.
This is a charity operating on a shoestring with much of the funding coming from individuals and local groups, plus the permanent fundraising events. In addition some funding comes for contracted services. There is also a high level of volunteer support.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
The thing that makes Aldi and Lidl so different from UK supermarkets is their profit/turnover ratio.
In Germany supermarkets reckon to make a profit of from ½-1% on turnover, after costs.
In the US supermarket profits are generally in the range 2½-5%.
In the UK the range has been 8-10%. Waitrose has been the notable exception (usually coming in at about 4%) because of its Partnership structure.
I'm told that the advent of Lidl and Aldi has brought down profit percentages at most supermarkets but they're still bringing in about 6%.
One of the reasons for Lidl and Aldi's lower profits is that they pay better; and yes, the shorter opening hours don't seem to hurt them either in Germany or here.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Note the categories, fraud, claimant error and offical error are all involved in overpayment. I suspect that the the statement of x% overpayment this year rapidly morphs to x% fraud this year when it hits the press.
Especially as it would not be the first time that this government has deliberately conflated the two.
AFZ
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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HarryLime
Apprentice
# 18525
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Posted
Unemployment is low and the bulk of the welfare bill is accounted for by pensions. There's really not much of a debate to be had about those who want to claim benefits while remaining idle. I've lived 25-plus years on council estates with unemployment problems and I believe the proportion of the population who just don't want to work is so tiny we shouldn't be giving it any thought whatsoever. It would be thought wasted on a non-problem.
The bigger fish to fry are a) those pensions, and b) the low quality of so many of the jobs that are available.
Posts: 18 | From: Bristol | Registered: Dec 2015
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HarryLime:
Unemployment is low and the bulk of the welfare bill is accounted for by pensions. There's really not much of a debate to be had about those who want to claim benefits while remaining idle. I've lived 25-plus years on council estates with unemployment problems and I believe the proportion of the population who just don't want to work is so tiny we shouldn't be giving it any thought whatsoever. It would be thought wasted on a non-problem.
Totally and utterly agree.
FWIW, My choice of the phrase 'idle benefit scroungers' for the thread has a double meaning I think the real idle scroungers are ATOS and Maximus who provide an appalling service to the government at an ever increasing cost - one that is already higher than the cost of fraud.
AFZ
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
quote:
Originally posted by HarryLime:
Unemployment is low and the bulk of the welfare bill is accounted for by pensions. There's really not much of a debate to be had about those who want to claim benefits while remaining idle. I've lived 25-plus years on council estates with unemployment problems and I believe the proportion of the population who just don't want to work is so tiny we shouldn't be giving it any thought whatsoever. It would be thought wasted on a non-problem.
Totally and utterly agree.
FWIW, My choice of the phrase 'idle benefit scroungers' for the thread has a double meaning I think the real idle scroungers are ATOS and Maximus who provide an appalling service to the government at an ever increasing cost - one that is already higher than the cost of fraud.
AFZ
To those I have to add landlords and hoteliers who provide temporary/emergency accommodation. It's a gravy train we pay through the nose for. I think a good FoI enquiry is in order.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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