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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: UK Labour Party (Under Corbyn)
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Frankly My Dear
Shipmate
# 18072
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Posted
The Labour Party. Broadly speaking, there are only two possibilities... 1) Due to the Corbynites, it's chances of reaching out again to voters who are not 'natural' Labour people is severely weakened. Those who appeal to the wider will of the party are going against the wider will of the country (an appeal led by 'entryists'). .. 2) Corbyn and Co. represent a marked shift in political activism in this country, and an increasing appetite for a real alternative to the post-Thatcher/post-Blair 'settlement'. The new intake into party membership should be properly welcomed and encouraged; and the parliamentary party must be prepared to toe a consistent line. ... I remain 'agnostic' on this. Your thoughts ??
Posts: 108 | From: Telford, Shropshire, UK | Registered: Apr 2014
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Wild Organist
Apprentice
# 12631
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Posted
But then, what about those who were alienated by the rapid shift to the right that Blair imposed?
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Be very careful what you wish for. You might just get it.
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toadstrike
Apprentice
# 18244
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Posted
I'm not a Labour Party supporter and never have been.
However I have been through his policies as stated and I would have to say that I completely agree with 90% of them. It's almost frightening. I wish he were a bit more robust about global warming. I see his brother is a denier which is worrying.
All a bit refreshing after Blair who has turned out more capitalist than any Tory ever was.
The way the national press is gunning for him is a disgrace in my opinion.
Posts: 24 | From: Welwyn Garden City, UK | Registered: Oct 2014
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by toadstrike:
I'm not a Labour Party supporter and never have been.
However I have been through his policies as stated and I would have to say that I completely agree with 90% of them. It's almost frightening. I wish he were a bit more robust about global warming. I see his brother is a denier which is worrying.
All a bit refreshing after Blair who has turned out more capitalist than any Tory ever was.
The way the national press is gunning for him is a disgrace in my opinion.
The national press was no fan of Blair either and certainly not Brown. Few who treat the press seriously, except possibly for sports reporting, would ever consider voting Labour, whatever its policies, as the papers are with rare exceptions an integral part of the Tory party propaganda machine.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
There is a simple answer to those who say that the country will never vote for a left-wing Labour party: it wasn't that keen to vote for a right-wing one either in 2010, and arguably it's because Ed Miliband flunked the opportunity to be radical enough in 2015 that he lost again.
Who knows? Once Corbyn can manage to get his message across despite the conspiracies of the media (and the BBC is one of the worst offenders) people might begin to see what he can offer. He didn't want to do the job and he is still on a learning curve as they say, but give him a chance.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
The national press was no fan of Blair either and certainly not Brown. Few who treat the press seriously, except possibly for sports reporting, would ever consider voting Labour, whatever its policies, as the papers are with rare exceptions an integral part of the Tory party propaganda machine.
Actually, for the most part the papers loved Blair, son of Thatcher that he is. Look at who the papers endorsed at each general election. The Times, Financial Times and Sun all backed Blair even in 2005.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252
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Posted
I hope for (2), agreeing with Angloid, but it's too early to say.
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insert amusing sig. here
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
I can't see what the fuss is. Corbyn's policies seem to me to be the typical post war consensus in which I grew up - and which gave me as a working class child, with a serious childhood illness, the benefits of a national health service (could have died/been disabled otherwise) and a secondary education and grant-funded tertiary education. While the unions I joined during my working life were of the mildest, I appreciated (the more so from my experience in ununionised workplaces) the work they did in securing pay and conditions. Even when they couldn't protect me from redundancy (although getting me pretty decent terms) the benefit system I landed on was sufficiently humane to allow me to redirect and get back into employment that was actually suitable and not just some miserable McJob.
I have seen all the things I benefitted from in terms of health, education and employment degraded or destroyed and I don't think they oughter been. We need to refight the battles for justice and equality.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
I first heard of Corbyn in the eighties in the aftermath of the Brighton bomb.
The IRA did law abiding Irish people in Britain no favours, cloaking us in suspicion. Corbyn went out of his way to "understand" Sinn Féin while ignoring politicians that the rest of us supported.
I had no time for him then, and I have no time for him now.
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Older, bearded (but no wiser)
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
I first heard of Corbyn in the eighties in the aftermath of the Brighton bomb.
The IRA did law abiding Irish people in Britain no favours, cloaking us in suspicion. Corbyn went out of his way to "understand" Sinn Féin while ignoring politicians that the rest of us supported.
I had no time for him then, and I have no time for him now.
Do you not think that it was understanding and talking to Sinn Fein that ultimately brought about the Good Friday agreement? Corbyn was just doing in public what the government was doing in private.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wild Organist:
But then, what about those who were alienated by the rapid shift to the right that Blair imposed?
Unless they stopped voting during that era or moved to other parties (?? where?), is this likely to have much effect on elections? And will it counterbalance floating voters who might drift away from a Corbynesque Labour Party?
To ask the question another way, were the Three Quid Voters, people who normally voted Labour but had not previously signed up to the party, or were they people who previously did not vote or previously voted for something else?
[ 10. January 2016, 07:53: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
If he gets elected as PM - it will be a major sea change because the newspapers will be seen to have lost their power as a "conservative" propaganda machine. I have to put that in "" because TonyB was supported by the papers because he supported the status quo with "big business". I see a lot of younger people much more media-savvy and able to smell a half truth.
Politics has gradually sunk into playing a bigger and bigger con/spin game, telling the public what they want to know and then doing something completely different. Corbyn is refreshingly honest, regardless of what you think of his policies - and most of which as has been noted above - make sense.
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
To ask the question another way, were the Three Quid Voters, people who normally voted Labour but had not previously signed up to the party, or were they people who previously did not vote or previously voted for something else?
I can only speak for myself, and a few close friends and family members, but I voted Green, Green and SNP at the last 3 general elections. O paid my £3 to vote for Corbyn and have now joined the Labour Party and they'll get my vote and my money so long as Corbyn or someone like him is leader. 2 other members of my family joined in much the same way, and a lot of my friends, previously Greens or lib dems, have been singing the praises of their recently elected Corbynite MP. A lot of people abandoned Labour because of Blair, and Miliband brought some of them back but not nearly as many as Corbyn.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
The behaviour in the plp that is pissing me off, is mps writing in the tabloids or social media or giving interviews in which they are extremely rude about Corbyn personally. Then when called on it they say, extremely disingenuously, "oh I thought this was the new politics".
The difference between Hilary Benn and Pat McFadden, is Hilary Benn put a case for what he believed in (with which I happen to disagree), whereas McFadden put a blatant caricature of Corbyn's views in a "wouldn't the prime minister agree with me manner". Then when he was removed from his position, he gave the press an immediate statement spun in a similar way.
There is dissent, and there is taking the piss. Alice McGovern may (or may not) have resigned from post the shadow chancellor was in the process of offering her because she didn't like what he said about the resiging junior ministers. What did she expect him to say ? We are distraught we'll never cope ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
I first heard of Corbyn in the eighties in the aftermath of the Brighton bomb.
The IRA did law abiding Irish people in Britain no favours, cloaking us in suspicion. Corbyn went out of his way to "understand" Sinn Féin while ignoring politicians that the rest of us supported.
I had no time for him then, and I have no time for him now.
Do you not think that it was understanding and talking to Sinn Fein that ultimately brought about the Good Friday agreement? Corbyn was just doing in public what the government was doing in private.
I find the comparison between what British governments felt they had to do and what a backbench London MP chose to do rather facile.
The British Government didn't invite Sinn Fein/IRA members to Parliament shortly after the IRA tried to murder the Prime Minister, unlike Corbyn. The British Government has never hesitated to condemn IRA terrorism, unlike Corbyn. The British Government maintained dialogue of various kinds with all sides in the dispute, unlike Corbyn.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
I first heard of Corbyn in the eighties in the aftermath of the Brighton bomb.
The IRA did law abiding Irish people in Britain no favours, cloaking us in suspicion. Corbyn went out of his way to "understand" Sinn Féin while ignoring politicians that the rest of us supported.
I had no time for him then, and I have no time for him now.
Do you not think that it was understanding and talking to Sinn Fein that ultimately brought about the Good Friday agreement? Corbyn was just doing in public what the government was doing in private.
No. Corbyn and the left who supported the Troops Out movement in the eighties were marginal players. It was the electoral backlash from the Enniskillen bombing that nudged the Republicans away from the terror campaign. The contradiction between running a terror campaign and seeking electoral mandates became too glaring even for the IRA.
[ 10. January 2016, 13:10: Message edited by: Ronald Binge ]
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Older, bearded (but no wiser)
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
A few years either side and Corbyn wouldn't have needed to invite Gerry Adams or Martin McGuinness to Parliament. That 1992-97 period was the only time in the recent past when there wasn't at least one Sinn Fein MP, fully entitled to be there.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I like Corbyn and I like most of his ideas. It's strange that he is considered hard left, when he strikes me as a moderate Keynesian, or fits in (as someone said earlier), with the post-war welfare settlement.
He has a tough furrow, as many Labour MPs are hostile to him, and most of the media.
I think also that Labour are going through a kind of post-Blair nervous breakdown, as parties often do. It's striking that the Blairites and Brownites seem bankrupt of ideas - well, I suppose they support war and benefit cuts.
[ 10. January 2016, 14:11: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think also that Labour are going through a kind of post-Blair nervous breakdown, as parties often do. It's striking that the Blairites and Brownites seem bankrupt of ideas - well, I suppose they support war and benefit cuts.
I think this is entirely it, like you I agree with a lot of Corbyn's ideas and don't think that the Labour Party under him are as hard left as those in the media would portray him to be. That said, he didn't win because of the strength of his ideas, but primarily because of the weakness of the opposition who were literally bereft of ideas - apart from the idea that they would do exactly what the Tories did but slightly less so [*]
So essentially they posed as the 'moderate and electable' wing of the Labour Party - except that they seem to be incapable of winning elections anyway.
... and since then, them and their fellow travellers have been in the throes of an extended hissy fit which further threatens their electability.
[*] In many ways they remind me of Nicola Murray from the TV Series 'The Thick of It' "I won't attack the opposition because that's what they'll expect me to do, and THAT will surprise them"
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I like Corbyn and I like most of his ideas. It's strange that he is considered hard left, when he strikes me as a moderate Keynesian, or fits in (as someone said earlier), with the post-war welfare settlement.
He has a tough furrow, as many Labour MPs are hostile to him, and most of the media.
I think also that Labour are going through a kind of post-Blair nervous breakdown, as parties often do. It's striking that the Blairites and Brownites seem bankrupt of ideas - well, I suppose they support war and benefit cuts.
I don't think it strange, I think it frightening. The center is moving and that is not good. Not quite America, yet, but...
ETA:Xpost with chris stiles who said it better.
[ 10. January 2016, 14:21: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yes, it is frightening, as everything has moved to the right. The Blairites want to compete over benefit cuts.
I wonder if Corbyn is actually holding the Labour party together, and a Blairite or Brownite leader would produce absolute mayhem.
I think he is here for the duration, as no right-winger dare challenge him.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by itsarumdo (emphasis mine):
Politics has gradually sunk into playing a bigger and bigger con/spin game, telling the public what they want to know and then doing something completely different. Corbyn is refreshingly honest, regardless of what you think of his policies.
I have no dog in this fight, but it strikes me that the latter does not, sadly, make for a good politician.
Without sinking into "con/spin games", I think politics requires an ability to be "economical with the truth".
An example of the perils of "refreshing honesty" from this thread would be talking to the IRA and letting it be known, as opposed to doing it privately.
Some people seem to manage to do that kind of thing with a clear conscience, others less so.
[ 10. January 2016, 14:55: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I think Labour people have been traumatized by Blair, and his predilection for spin, which seemed to go beyond this into lying.
Hence the aversion to old Blairites and Brownites, who are seen by some members as bankrupt.
But then the Tories went through this after Thatcher - wilderness years.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Grokesx
Shipmate
# 17221
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Posted
@Enoch
quote:
To ask the question another way, were the Three Quid Voters, people who normally voted Labour but had not previously signed up to the party, or were they people who previously did not vote or previously voted for something else?
This three quidder voted Lib Dem in '97 because New Labour left me with no option other than a protest vote. Shamefully, not noticing the economically rightward shift the Orange Bookers were taking the Lib Dems, I voted for them in 2010. Never again.
As has been noted, Corbyn's policies would have been mainstream in pre-Thatcher days, but thanks to the shift in the Overton Window, today look somewhat different.
It's funny, really, in the mid seventies I was an International Socialist/SWP member. Now, as a Corbyn supporter, I'm still apparently a hard left nutcase, even though my younger self would have seen my drift with age towards social democracy as a hideous betrayal of left wing values.
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For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. H. L. Mencken
Posts: 373 | From: Derby, UK | Registered: Jul 2012
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
If anyone can object to Jeremy Corbyn for cosying up to Sinn Fein then they must surely have even greater objections to the current government sucking up to the Saudi regime. Or do bona fide governments have some sort of free pass when it comes to violence?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Silly man. Sinn Fein don't have oil.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
If anyone can object to Jeremy Corbyn for cosying up to Sinn Fein then they must surely have even greater objections to the current government sucking up to the Saudi regime. Or do bona fide governments have some sort of free pass when it comes to violence?
I don't know about you but I had my fill of ignorance about Ireland and the Irish in London in the late 1980s and early 1990s. We weren't all sympathisers. The UK left could afford to be dilettantes. We had to live with the consequences of IRA actions.
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Older, bearded (but no wiser)
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
If anyone can object to Jeremy Corbyn for cosying up to Sinn Fein then they must surely have even greater objections to the current government sucking up to the Saudi regime. Or do bona fide governments have some sort of free pass when it comes to violence?
I don't know about you but I had my fill of ignorance about Ireland and the Irish in London in the late 1980s and early 1990s. We weren't all sympathisers. The UK left could afford to be dilettantes. We had to live with the consequences of IRA actions.
Believe me I know about that! My brothers have a different surname, a very Irish surname as a consequence of an Irish father and they had a hard time of it too, especially one bro' who lived in Birmingham in the 1970's. Amazingly they supported Corbyn then and now. Suppose it shows that the Irish aren't homogenous.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
If anyone can object to Jeremy Corbyn for cosying up to Sinn Fein then they must surely have even greater objections to the current government sucking up to the Saudi regime. Or do bona fide governments have some sort of free pass when it comes to violence?
I don't know about you but I had my fill of ignorance about Ireland and the Irish in London in the late 1980s and early 1990s. We weren't all sympathisers. The UK left could afford to be dilettantes. We had to live with the consequences of IRA actions.
Believe me I know about that! My brothers have a different surname, a very Irish surname as a consequence of an Irish father and they had a hard time of it too, especially one bro' who lived in Birmingham in the 1970's. Amazingly they supported Corbyn then and now. Suppose it shows that the Irish aren't homogenous.
Well of course we aren't homogenous.
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Older, bearded (but no wiser)
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
The behaviour in the plp that is pissing me off, is mps writing in the tabloids or social media or giving interviews in which they are extremely rude about Corbyn personally. Then when called on it they say, extremely disingenuously, "oh I thought this was the new politics".
Indeed. Leader of the Opposition was never going to be an easy job for Mr Corbyn but the Blairite wing of the PLP seems to be going out of its way to make it harder for him.
I don't think we need to blame a Tory conspiracy for the media portrayal of Mr Corbyn as a loonie-leftiw - that image was provided for them free of charge by Mr Blair and Lord Mandelson. Mr Cameron doesn't have to lift a finger to make Mr Corbyn look like an out-of-touch ideologue: the Blairites have already provided the script.
Mr Corbyn was supposedly nominated in order to 'broaden the debate'. But the debate never actually happened, because instead of defending PFI and academies (or whatever the Blairites stand for these days), and thus allowing the PLP to articulate an understanding of the relationship between state and private enterprise, they devoted their entire media campaign to 'Don't vote for Corbyn, he's a nutter'.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
ad hom character assassination is usually a sign of desperation in the face of potential defeat. The principle of gaining power by any means "so we can then help the people" is somehow worrying.
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
If anyone can object to Jeremy Corbyn for cosying up to Sinn Fein then they must surely have even greater objections to the current government sucking up to the Saudi regime. Or do bona fide governments have some sort of free pass when it comes to violence?
I don't know about you but I had my fill of ignorance about Ireland and the Irish in London in the late 1980s and early 1990s. We weren't all sympathisers. The UK left could afford to be dilettantes. We had to live with the consequences of IRA actions.
But how does that answer the point about the Saudis?
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Grokesx. Mid '70s I was Monday Club. If I could have seen myself now, joining the Labour Party to vote for Jeremy and Tom, then ... that would make a good novel.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
Ronald Binge, I have empathy for you. I know Irish people who have expressed similar sentiments about the effect of the IRA's terror campaign.
Interesting to hear these views on Corbyn. In Australia, the nihilists are still in firm control of the Labor party, the 'we're slightly better than the conservatives' mob. When will we get a labor leader who will free our refugees in offshore detention?
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Grokesx. Mid '70s I was Monday Club. If I could have seen myself now, joining the Labour Party to vote for Jeremy and Tom, then ... that would make a good novel.
I thought people got more conservative when they got older :-)
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
My father has become more liberal as he's aged.
Mum cannot get lost.
(She leans so far to the left, she walks in circles.)
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
Ronald Binge, I have empathy for you. I know Irish people who have expressed similar sentiments about the effect of the IRA's terror campaign.
Interesting to hear these views on Corbyn. In Australia, the nihilists are still in firm control of the Labor party, the 'we're slightly better than the conservatives' mob. When will we get a labor leader who will free our refugees in offshore detention?
Thank you. It's nice to have that recognised.
Angloid - I detest the Saudis. Let them defend their indefensible regime. Disliking Corbyn doesn't mean I hold a whole slate of other opinions as well.
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Older, bearded (but no wiser)
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
I would be more comfortable with Mr Corbyn's and Mr McDonnell's IRA links if either of them could show how they actually contributed to the peace process.
I think it's true that a.) though the IRA were bastards, they nonetheless had genuine grievances which would have to be addressed for any realistic chance of peace, and b.) if the government could not defeat the IRA, it would be necessary to negotiate, and you can't negotiate with someone without in some sense legitimising them.
And a.) and b.), as lots of people have said, are more or less what the UK government ended up doing. (I think technically the IRA are still counted as terrorists, but releasing prisoners at the ceasefire is closer to what you do to PoWs rather than criminals.) But they seem to have done so without reference to Mr Corbyn or Mr McDonnell. Which makes Mr Corbyn and Mr McDonnell ineffectual at best.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
I would be more comfortable with Mr Corbyn's and Mr McDonnell's IRA links if either of them could show how they actually contributed to the peace process.
I think it's true that a.) though the IRA were bastards, they nonetheless had genuine grievances which would have to be addressed for any realistic chance of peace, and b.) if the government could not defeat the IRA, it would be necessary to negotiate, and you can't negotiate with someone without in some sense legitimising them.
And a.) and b.), as lots of people have said, are more or less what the UK government ended up doing. (I think technically the IRA are still counted as terrorists, but releasing prisoners at the ceasefire is closer to what you do to PoWs rather than criminals.) But they seem to have done so without reference to Mr Corbyn or Mr McDonnell. Which makes Mr Corbyn and Mr McDonnell ineffectual at best.
There's also the point that the govet were of course also talking to the UFF, UDA, UVF, etc - because you have to talk to all sides.
Corbyn and McDonnell seem to have had a bit of a love-in with the nationalists, but been rather short on the cosy chats with the loyalist paramilitaries. Working hard to be friends only with the side you agree with does not a peacemaker make...
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
Look, there's long been a significant element in the British left that instinctively identifies with groups of people that a lot of the rest of us regard as actually or potentially the nation's enemies, viz Burgess and Maclean. Supporting the Provos has been only a more recent and blatant example. Whether this hatred for that from which one was sprung is because of resentments towards parents and teachers from childhood, or something else, who can say? Either you yourself likewise instinctively identify with that or not. It depends on subterranean instincts that you probably aren't even in touch with yourself.
Why, might be a very interesting topic for another thread. There's some anecdotal evidence that similar phenomena operate in some other countries. What, though, is more relevant for this thread is whether association with those emotional mainsprings is more or less likely to see a party run by Corbyn and McDonnell win an election or whether they are largely irrelevant?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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betjemaniac
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# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Why, might be a very interesting topic for another thread.
Possibly, although for me that nice Mr Orwell nailed the English intellectual left's loathing of England back in February 1941 in "The Lion and the Unicorn" and there's not a lot more to add from the intervening years!
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
If anyone can object to Jeremy Corbyn for cosying up to Sinn Fein then they must surely have even greater objections to the current government sucking up to the Saudi regime. Or do bona fide governments have some sort of free pass when it comes to violence?
How many British cities have the Saudi regime bombed?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Look, there's long been a significant element in the British left that instinctively identifies with groups of people that a lot of the rest of us regard as actually or potentially the nation's enemies
I think it's very much a generational thing, relating to the what was seen as the 'great struggle of ideology' in that particular time. People were too willing to give a pass to those they felt were fellow travellers.
In the same way that some people on the intellectual right associated at the time with people (Pinochet, the South African regime etc) who are now regarded as beyond the pale from a human rights point of view.
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lowlands_boy
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# 12497
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Posted
I think what happens next depends a lot on what happens to all the people who got Corbyn where he is.
Under the old style Labour leadership elections he wouldn't have got anywhere. So, of all the three pound voters, how many have converted to full membership of the Labour party, and are continuing to play an active roll in their local constituency?
He has the problem now of the disagreements within the party. There's been some discussion about how much deselection of MPs there will be before the next general election. All MPs have to be nominated by their local party. Ken Livingstone has said that it's inevitable that MPs who regularly defy Corbyn will face deselection. That deselection will need active party members to come about.
Labour are also reported today to be worried about losing millions of pounds in contributions from the unions, if changes to "opting in" for political funds are introduced as part of the trade union bill.
That might mean needing to raise much more dosh from the average party member.
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I thought I should update my signature line....
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
]How many British cities have the Saudi regime bombed?
The correct analogy is: how many British citizens have died at the hands of Wahhabi-inspired extremists?
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lowlands_boy:
Under the old style Labour leadership elections he wouldn't have got anywhere. So, of all the three pound voters, how many have converted to full membership of the Labour party, and are continuing to play an active roll in their local constituency?
Two points here; Corbyn won a majority even if the three pound voters are removed from the equation. So it was really the re-balancing of the voting weights of the membership vs the PLP that led to a Corbyn victory - so the question really is one of how many of the membership as a whole play an active roll.
[and yes, there is has also been a significant increase in the number of Labour party members - though there is no break down I could find as to how many of those have 'converted' on the back of signing up for voting in the leadership election]
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
How many British cities have the Saudi regime bombed?
The correct analogy is: how many British citizens have died at the hands of Wahhabi-inspired extremists?
No, because we're talking about a member of the British parliament unilaterally holding talks with a specific organisation that has the explicit purpose of attacking and killing British citizens. The Saudi government does not, so far as I am aware, match that description.
The initial comment I was replying to was presumably intended to say that one cannot criticise an MP who is on good terms with the IRA without also criticising an MP who is on good terms with the Saudi government, as both are violent. But that is to miss the key point that the IRA's violence is directed against British citizens, whereas the Saudi government's is not. That simple fact makes all the difference to how appropriate it is for an MP - someone who is supposed to represent and uphold the interests of British citizens - to be on good terms with either group.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lowlands_boy:
He has the problem now of the disagreements within the party. There's been some discussion about how much deselection of MPs there will be before the next general election. All MPs have to be nominated by their local party. Ken Livingstone has said that it's inevitable that MPs who regularly defy Corbyn will face deselection.
In other words, you mustn't dare disagree with him. It says something that there seems to be a continuous flow of resignations. Which are counterproductive: all that will do is open up vacancies for him to fill with people who won't argue with him. Why bother having a cabinet at all?
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