Ship of Fools: Tarot

Thread: Tarot Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

On another forum, I questioned some ex-Christians about their use of tarot cards, which a few of them used. I was intrigued because I understood them as being for telling futures, but they explained that they also use them for making decisions.

So two questions:

1. Does anyone use tarot cards, for anything? Or have you? are they useful?

2. Is there a good reason against using them? My evangelical background would rail against them strongly, but I can see that there is a value to using tools to help us think things through.

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

I've had Tarot cards since I was about 14. The packs have varied, but I've always had them.

I find them useful for clarifying a situation. What I think it does is that the pictures call forth a response from a part of my mind I'm not consciously aware of.

There are some packs I can't get on with at all and get nothing more than a random response from. There have been a few others that I've felt instantly at home with, and these work for me which is why I think it's about the pictures.

I don't believe there is anything occult about them. I did some research into the origins of Tarot cards at one point and am inclined to believe they are just debased medieval pictures, copied over and over with variations until some bore little resemblance to the originals. Some later 19th century packs deliberately introduced occult symbolism, but I can't think of any older packs that have this.

These days there are a huge and growing number of different Tarot packs out there to cater for just about every preference. There are even Christian Tarot packs as well as angel tarot cards.

Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on :

I wouldn't use them, and I'd dissuade my kids from getting into it if I could.

Folks I've known who have been into occult stuff have generally been pretty unhappy. I'm not necessarily claiming causality, just correlation, but I don't know - all that 'what's going to happen, what should I do' anxiety is bad enough, without stoking it. I think I'd include opening bibles and inserting a pin into the same kind of category - there's something desperate and grasping about it which seems unlikely to lead to freedom and peace. Rather, find the lectionary and puzzle over whatever the day's reading happens to give you - take some ego out of the situation, which is almost always a good idea.

Posted by HCH (# 14313) on :

I don't have any Tarot cards, but if I were to buy some, it would because of their beauty.

There is a charming book by Italo Calvin, "The Castle of Crossed Destinies", making use of Tarot cards as an aid in storytelling.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

I know people, perhaps they were already a bit emotionally unstable to begin with, but they became a lot more unstable using this kind of thing.

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

I don't know anybody who became more unstable through working with Tarot cards or doing the occasional spread now and again. (This thread is starting to remind me of the pro- and anti-drugs arguments.)

I met one person who consulted the cards for most decisions she needed to make during the day, but I've never met anyone else who took it to anything like that extreme. You'll always find some people who need a crutch. Sometimes they use Tarot as one, sometimes they use religion that way.

Posted by Mili (# 3254) on :

I never thought that Tarot cards did anything, but had never used them before either. Then when I was living in London, my housemates and a former housemate who was staying at our place a few nights got out a set and the visitor started telling fortunes. I was the only practising Christian. One housemate was an English atheist at the time, one a non-practising Italian-Australian Roman Catholic and the third was from a Sikh background, but was born and raised in Scotland and was not religious. The visitor was another Australian and I think also had a Roman Catholic family background.

After a couple of others had had a go I asked the visitor to tell my fortune. She questioned whether I should as a Christian - wasn't it against my beliefs? Something pricked my conscience so even though I didn't believe there was anything supernatural about the cards I decided not to have my fortune told after all.

The next day I went away for a week to France and Italy. While away I had a nightmare and night terror where an old Italian witch had 'adopted' me against my will. We were in a car and she had her bony fingers around my wrist. I woke up yelling and punching the wall. I did have night terrors from time to time until my mid-twenties, especially when sleeping in new places, so it was probably a coincidence unconnected to the cards. Although my nightmares usually involved real people or natural disasters like earthquakes or tsunamis, not the supernatural.

When I got back from my holiday my housemates were out, but the house had a really oppressive atmosphere. I felt depressed and like there was fear in the house. I went to my room and prayed and the atmosphere returned to normal and I felt peaceful again. At this point I was still thinking it could be my imagination though.

Then two of my housemates got home and were really freaked out. It turned out they had been playing with the Tarot cards all week and had spooked themselves silly. They said a light globe had been removed somehow. I suggested perhaps it was our other housemate who had removed it because it had blown. That turned out to be the case in the end!

It might not have been anything supernatural, but the cards certainly freaked my housemates and their friend out when they played with them too much and the oppressive feeling in the house was very strong and not something I had felt before.

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :

I think it odd that so many people want to consult horoscopes or tarot cards or fortune tellers, mediums, etc, while decrying Christianity as superstitious nonsense. The former are where superstition lies. They are dangerous imv as they seem to encourage dependency, to the detriment of health.

Posted by David Goode (# 9224) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
1. Does anyone use tarot cards, for anything? Or have you? are they useful?

I have several packs of Sicilian playing cards, but that's because I like playing Briscola.

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

I do not believe divination accesses anything outside my own mind. However my mind contains perceptions about the present and future of which I am not conscious in the ordinary way of thinking.

To me there is only one question for the Tarot: where am I today? What should I be aware of? How should I best deal with the present situation?

Obviously I only bother to ask these questions if the present is disturbing or overwhelming my normal modes of thinking and coping. The 'advice' I get from a reading I recognise as, indeed, what I should be doing were I not so distraught - plus, often, a message of encouragement and hope - again, coming to me from a calmer part of my mind than the conscious, panicking bit.

Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :

In most of Europe, AIUI, tarot is just a card game. You might as well use Monopoly pieces for divination.

(I remember staying with a rather conservative French Protestant family whose son set my cognitive dissonance into overdrive by naming tarot as one of his hobbies. Turns out to be like whist for people who think conventional playing cards aren't arbitrary enough ...)

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

@LeRoc. I love it when a liberal is common sensibly cautious.

Posted by RainbowGirl (# 18543) on :

I have tarot cards and I use them occasionally. I don't think they tell the future or that they do anything mystical. Each card has a whole host of meanings, which means when you do a reading your mind or your subconscious picks the applicable one out. Ouija boards work in a similar way. I studied them as part of my uni studies in psychology, which is how I got in to them (tarot cards I mean). I just find them amusing more than anything else. Sometimes when you are really tangled in your thoughts they can help straighten them out. For example: I'm not sure if I want to do this thing, you draw a card, read the meaning and your mind goes, oh it says I should do this thing. The card didn't tell you that, you told yourself that. You can use a magic eight ball the same way. Or you can open a bible randomly and read the pages it falls open on.

A traditional spread in the tarot is past, present, future. One card for each. I can guarantee you it won't tell you anything you didn't already know. The interpretation of the future card will change depending on what you are currently looking for in your future.

They are also really pretty, and are works of art in their own right.

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

And aye, they are beautiful, atavistic and helpful I'm sure the way staring in to a candle or rose is. I collect trees.

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
I wouldn't use them, and I'd dissuade my kids from getting into it if I could.

Folks I've known who have been into occult stuff have generally been pretty unhappy. I'm not necessarily claiming causality, just correlation, but I don't know - all that 'what's going to happen, what should I do' anxiety is bad enough, without stoking it. I think I'd include opening bibles and inserting a pin into the same kind of category - there's something desperate and grasping about it which seems unlikely to lead to freedom and peace. Rather, find the lectionary and puzzle over whatever the day's reading happens to give you - take some ego out of the situation, which is almost always a good idea.

Very sensible. A learned friend once told me that you don't need weird beliefs to go crazy, but it sure helps. We can't divine anything useful; if all info gathering and statistical analysis can barely predict the weather, how can a ridiculous deck of cards unconnected with anything predict anything.

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
A learned friend once told me that you don't need weird beliefs to go crazy, but it sure helps.

Weird beliefs? Like, a guy walked on water, fed thousands of people with provisions that wouldn't normally have fed 50, raised a friend from the dead, and later came back from the dead himself? Christians aren't exactly in a position to criticize others for having weird beliefs.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
A learned friend once told me that you don't need weird beliefs to go crazy, but it sure helps.
Weird beliefs? Like, a guy walked on water, fed thousands of people with provisions that wouldn't normally have fed 50, raised a friend from the dead, and later came back from the dead himself? Christians aren't exactly in a position to criticize others for having weird beliefs.

Viewed from the outside, all religions are mad.

Posted by Macrina (# 8807) on :

While agreeing with what RuthW and lilBuddha say I will just add that having weird beliefs in comparison to the wider cultural beliefs of society around you is probably the thing that will help you go crazy. A lot of sociology and psychology indicates that 'out groups' usually face higher rates of mental illness and deprivation.

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:

quote:
how can a ridiculous deck of cards unconnected with anything predict anything.

Because they can help you access your own knowledge of the future. As can dreams.

That knowledge is nomally highly personal, short range, and either trivial ( if the matter is indifferent), or if not, only if it is the subject of intense feeling.

So, unfortunately, I can never manage to foreknow the lottery numbers. But my life is littered with instances which suggests to me that I stand not on an absolute line which is this present moment, with everything in front of that line unknowable - but rather in a blurry circle, with events or outcomes minutes, hours or even longer 'in the future' available to me. The knowledge comes either as a feeling of certainty, or a narrative (dreams) or is indicated by a suggestive image, such as the Tarot.

I think this level of precognition is ordinary and universal but generally ignored - though how often, in speaking of some crisis, do you not hear people say they 'just knew' something which shortly after turned out to be the case?

[ 03. February 2016, 07:06: Message edited by: Firenze ]

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

Thank you for some interesting responses.

I think, having thought it through in the light of these, there is a problem with the occult, including tarot, if it is used as a crutch or a thing of power which determines your future and all that is there. The same can be said of those who rely on "Christian" ways of abdicating responsibility - look at WBC, and tell me they are not as damaged as someone who has been scarred by tarot, Ouija or whatever.

I think it is people like myself, natural obsessives, who are at risk from any form of fortune telling.

At the same time, I can see that a tool to help focus the mind is a positive. It gives you a framework to think about the problem and so move it to a resolution. As RainbowGirl said, they don't tell you anything you don't already know. Fortune tellers who argue differently are simply cold-reading people, and we all know there are those who are exceptionally good at that.

One could argue that it is a form of cold-reading yourself.

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

No angels, no demons, it's all Us. But then we thought up the angels and demons to begin with, so if we convince ourselves that something is imbued with uncanny power, then it is. Particularly if we are under stress.

I can remember a particularly trying time in work when the daily Dilbert seemed so spot on that it became quite easy to believe it was Speaking To Us and that Scott Adam would come on the last day with fire and judgement....

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

I'm not sure I can remember a time when Dilbert didn't speak to my work situation.

Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :

Have 3 sets - well 2 now as I gave my Rider Waite deck to my younger son to look at and he spread it out on the FLOOR not on its silk scarf ... so as far as I was concerned nearly 40 years of carefully accumulated and preserved "vibrations" dissipated into the tiles...

I've used them for clarification of various Matters and found them helpful. They made me look at things from angles my rational mind might not have come up with. Staring at the images and pictures can influence my frame of mind and calm me to see The Matter more clearly. I also find certain cards turning up all the time to me - and that has given me insight into deep parts of myself or patterns in my life.

It can get nutty... like anything... fasting and rigorous hand-washing before touching them or using a 13-card spread to decide between muesli or granola for breakfast. But I think such people would have had some predisposition to that kind of behaviour anyway - it's not the Tarot causing it.

I would not class them as a Dark Art at all. All sorts have used them down the centuries and mostly positively and helpfully

I don't know of anyone (apart from Mili above) who has had a very negative experience. It's either pleasant, useful and helpful or "nothing much happened and wouldn't bother again". I also think it is quite a mild experience - even those of us who make a point of having them about don't get "wild" or "high" from a spread or suffer if we don't use them for a while.

If you're drawn to them... go ahead. If not... don't force yourself. There is no "should" here. Like most things some people are more drawn to them than others and so they are more useful and helpful to them.

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
No angels, no demons, it's all Us. But then we thought up the angels and demons to begin with, so if we convince ourselves that something is imbued with uncanny power, then it is. Particularly if we are under stress.

Did 'we' think up angels and demons, or were they observations brought into our language?

I know someone who is convinced that his 'dabblings' with the occult had resulted in a demon possession which was leading him down the road to an early death until he became a Christian.

Perhaps, in the same way that we invite the Holy Spirit of God into our lives through prayer and worship, so may occult practices open an invitation for whatever dark forces there are to come into our lives.... if such things exist. Shouldn't we be sufficiently cautious to steer clear, without becoming neurotic?

Posted by Mili (# 3254) on :

I don't know for sure that it was just the tarot cards that spooked my housemates. Who knows what they got up to while I was away - I never did ask. Perhaps they told a lot of ghost stories or had a séance or something. We were in our early to mid twenties so perhaps at a stage of life to be spooked more easily than at a later stage. I definitely felt the fear in the house when I got back though and I do believe in the supernatural.

I have had dreams and 'visions' that came true now and then, but I don't like to encourage it as sometimes they were really bad ones about violence in the world etc. As a Christian I'm not sure I should be messing with that stuff. I don't want to know the future, especially when there's nothing I can do about it. Sometimes I know something really mundane in advance which can be more useful, but it's totally random when this happens.

I never heard of people using tarot cards in a non-spiritual way to sort through thoughts and feelings before, so this has been an interesting conversation to read. Still not for me though.

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

It was either Winnie the Pooh, or someone chanelling him, who said dreams are little bits of fluff which blow into my head by mistake, and get mixed up with the grass clippings, dead leaves, and things I forgot to completely digest. I can only accept emotional themes without details from some dreams while being mindful of wishful thinking and confirmatory bias.

Re weird beliefs in Christianity, I don't find it necessary to believe in the miraculous to maintain a Christian life. It was never about the magical. Or maybe I should say magical realism.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

Being a fairly orthodox CofE person, I accept the conventional view that I wouldn't touch Tarot cards with a barge pole. It's probably not something I think about much most of the time, but it's in the same sort of territory as attending a seance, Ouija boards or reverencing an image of Ganesh.

I don't really get the notion that it isn't really divination if one tries to persuade oneself one is consulting one's own subconscious rather than a familiar spirit.

Something that is strange though, is that when I was an adolescent 50 years ago, everybody knew that Christians took the line that you should wait until you were married before you had sex. People were a lot less aware that Christianity regarded things like table-rapping as wrong and dangerous. These days, as Mili has related, most people know that Christians don't do the occult. As a converse, the standards of 50 years ago, both the public and Christians have become spectacularly lax about premarital sex. The occult and premarital sex have swapped places.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Enoch: The occult and premarital sex have swapped places.

I personally prefer the sex.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

Tarot cards are best used as a form of counselling e.g. if someone turns up a card to do with death it might prompt thoughts about which behaviours and situastions are death-dealing and how might one change one's life in order to flourish.

Posted by que sais-je (# 17185) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Tarot cards are best used as a form of counselling e.g. if someone turns up a card to do with death it might prompt thoughts about which behaviours and situastions are death-dealing and how might one change one's life in order to flourish.

Many years ago I regularly used the I Ching. The 'answers' were totally gnomic and could fit any, all or no question asked. I think of it as giving my mind the chance to relax. Considering what seems to be irrelevant responses is quite a good way of breaking out of ingrained habits of thought. And it often suggested uncertainties or alternatives I hadn't considered.

No one has, I think, mentioned the value of a ritual process: tossing the I Ching coins, unwrapping and dealing your tarot etc. There are obvious religious parallels in having a structured, physical process which, with time and famiarity, allows you to adopt a more receptive state of mind and recognise that everyday concerns are temporarily on hold.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

I used to have a lot of New Age friends, who had tons of Tarot packs, some of them quite beautiful. We used to mess around with them, and the I Ching, but I remember the point made by leo, that you could use them as 'pointers to the unconscious'. For example, I remember vividly that the death card was usually seen as a symbol of change, not death.

A further point, that it's highly irresponsible to make predictions about other people's lives. So we used to use them in a kind of 'client-centred' way, hence, deal out some cards, now which ones appeal to you?

Nowadays, I prefer to study the foam on top of the beer. I see a tall dark woman, from the Major Arcana, who hasn't done the washing up for ages, damn, that's my wife.

Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Something that is strange though, is that when I was an adolescent 50 years ago, everybody knew that Christians took the line that you should wait until you were married before you had sex. People were a lot less aware that Christianity regarded things like table-rapping as wrong and dangerous. These days, as Mili has related, most people know that Christians don't do the occult. [/QB]

Perhaps more accurate to say that most people know that certain types of Christians don't do the occult.

I'm gonna speculate that if you include everyone who ever had a seance at a teenage slumber party, glanced at the astrology column in the newspaper or the Chinese zodiac on a noodle-house menu, or even just made sure to always include the number 7 in his weekly lottery selections, without feeling the least bit remoreseful about any of it, you'd find a large minority, possibly even an outright majority, of Christians who "do the occult".

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
.. if such things exist. Shouldn't we be sufficiently cautious to steer clear, without becoming neurotic?

You wouldn't be Irish, would you? There does be no such things as faeries, but that's no reason to be disobliging to them.

The existence of invisible, immaterial, non-carbon-based life forms is an interesting proposition, but I do find it easier to credit the amazing fecundity of the human imagination. We have, after all, millenia of art, architecture, philosophies, technologies, stories and events in evidence (not saying all good, but indubitably amazing) - but anything like the same trace level for the supernatural?

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

Subjective validation and what we used to call the "barnum effect" operate with all of this. If something fits a little bit, it is easy to get excited and think the whole thing is true and valid.

Tarot and other forms of divination are about making general statements that most people find some kernel of truth in. I don't think any of it accesses the unconscious or subconscious. Rather it provides some way of fulfilling some wish or desire, or confronting some fear. If I was ever required to do a form of divination, I'd choose phrenology. Because having someone massage the bumps on my ever balder head would at least be relaxing.

Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :

quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:

No one has, I think, mentioned the value of a ritual process: tossing the I Ching coins, unwrapping and dealing your tarot etc. There are obvious religious parallels in having a structured, physical process which, with time and famiarity, allows you to adopt a more receptive state of mind and recognise that everyday concerns are temporarily on hold.

Oh definitely...kept wrapped up specially, unwrapped, shuffled, cut to the left 3 times with the left hand. That's what someone taught me and I just did it.
But I think anything works if it means something to you. As long as it isn't too long or complicated

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

I do wonder whether it is something to do with the pictorial and interpretive nature of the cards that explains the negativity.

Of course words, like cards with bible phrases on them are very clear and unambiguous. [Killing me]

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I do wonder whether it is something to do with the pictorial and interpretive nature of the cards that explains the negativity.

Of course it is. If you didn't have the Hanged Man, the Devil and Death in the pack, people wouldn't be half as spooked by them. They are, however, common medieval images. The Magician tends to be a juggler in the older packs, a street entertainer. The High Priestess may just originally have been a nun or an allegory of Mother Church. And so it goes.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

I was meaning less the nature of the pictures as the fact that they are pictures. The Victorian-era-evangelicalism promoted words over pictures (part of the intellectualism that crept in).

Posted by Eliab (# 9153) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Being a fairly orthodox CofE person, I accept the conventional view that I wouldn't touch Tarot cards with a barge pole. It's probably not something I think about much most of the time, but it's in the same sort of territory as attending a seance, Ouija boards or reverencing an image of Ganesh.

Well, not quite, because those things (probably) involve an explicit appeal to a supernatural entity outside the usual Christian spiritual directory. That's at least one step away, in the direction of "practising another religion" from horoscopes, tea-leaves, Tarot cards and the like. Divination may be a sin, but it's not apostasy.

But I'm still quite surprised by some of the responses here. I think I've always taken it for granted that the various forms of divination are forbidden to Christians. Even specifically Christian forms, like opening the Bible at random and picking a verse to speak to you has always been deprecated whenever it's been discussed in the evangelical and MOTR Anglican churches I've been involved in.

And I'm not even particular bothered by (or impressed with) Christian arguments against "the Occult" - as a life-long FRPG enthusiast, I've spent far too many hours defending my "Occult" hobbies* against (mostly) well-meaning ignoramuses for that. I don't think that reading an astrology column or using Tarot cards lets the Devil into your life, or shit like that. I also don't think that it "works", but whether it works or not, I've always classed it as just something we're told not to do.

(*I do have a set of Tarot cards, somewhere, which I've used as a LARP prop. I'd do (and have done) an 'in-character' Tarot reading without a qualm. But that's not divination. It's just pretend. Even when it works.)

Posted by Aravis (# 13824) on :

I've never had anything to do with them myself, but CS Lewis's friend Charles Williams wrote a novel about Tarot cards, "The Greater Trumps" which was enjoyable and thought-provoking.

Posted by Beenster (# 242) on :

What I love about Tarot is it helps me think. So if I have a quandry or am in a tizzy, then I can think better.

I love my tarot tho. Just bought a new deck, it helps me see things differently.

The other thing, I find it opens me up to what I want to do. So if I ask the q "should I leave my job" and the answer comes back as "yes", what I will find is actually I don't want to leave. That sounds peverse and isn't a great example. But I did a reading for someone recently who was umming and ahhing about moving out of her flat. The cards showed how much more there was for her out there if she moved. She decided to stay. I don't see that as a dud reading, more of an empowerment for her to know what to do. Two months down the line, she is back to square 1 tho and moving out now.

For divination, again, it helps me think. We can't know the future, or we can - but only as so far as "all other things being equal". The problem is - free will - sends things awry - or can do.

I worry about those who cling to tarot for answers or directions. It's only going to lead to loss of £££ or $$$ and disappointment in one shape or form, but used with wisdom and caution - can be amazingly empowering.

There are too many young, impressionable, vulnerable people out there and plenty of charlatans.

Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Being a fairly orthodox CofE person, I accept the conventional view that I wouldn't touch Tarot cards with a barge pole. It's probably not something I think about much most of the time, but it's in the same sort of territory as attending a seance, Ouija boards or reverencing an image of Ganesh.

Well, ISTM that endowing tarot cards with malevolent power is as superstitious as endowing them with benevolent power*. They are playing cards in origin - in most of Europe, they still are.

Also I don't think the activities you list form a single category. Séances do I think claim to be tapping into some spiritual power, whereas Ouija boards were explicitly developed as a parlour game, not as a hotline to the dead. Images of Ganesh AIUI have the same ritual significance in Hinduism as icons in Orthodoxy (and whether Ganesh is a separate entity or an aspect of godhead will send you down philosophical avenues that make the Trinity seem straightforward).

(*It is interesting that the OT diatribes against idols are not that they are malevolent powers but that they have no power at all. And idolaters are condemned not for meddling with unclean spirits but for being stupid.)

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I don't think any of it accesses the unconscious or subconscious. Rather it provides some way of fulfilling some wish or desire, or confronting some fear.

And wishes, desires and fears aren't rooted in the unconscious? Why do I fear darkness or sp*ders? What is so acutely distressing about being momentarily physically hampered? Why am I drawn to the colour turquoise or to the scent of roses? I - and everyone IMO - is driven by memories, experiences and impulses lost to any conscious recollection. Possibly even coded into our DNA like a big nose or a bad temper.

We are largely irrational and we need ways of sidestepping rationality to understand that.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

I stay away from tarot (much as I love the pics) for the same reason I stay away from the random Bible opening, Ouija, etc. etc. etc. and even reading the horoscope in the paper. Because I know that I'm way too prone to start putting hopes and fears in it, even in things that are far more clearly nonsense. If some coincidence seemed to validate the reading/horoscope/random verse, I would become slightly more convinced every time, until the bloody thing had wormed its way into the place God should occupy in my life--that is, being the one I look to for help, strength, comfort, and direction.

I'm just weak that way. Maybe there are a lot of people who aren't, but given a chance to create an idol, I'll fucking do it. [Waterworks]

And I am partly Irish, too. Tarot may be totally innocent--but why give the devil a possibility?

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I don't think any of it accesses the unconscious or subconscious. Rather it provides some way of fulfilling some wish or desire, or confronting some fear.
And wishes, desires and fears aren't rooted in the unconscious?

No, don't think so. Unconscious by definition means you're not aware of it. I might allow not fully realized or partly conscious, but that is wishes and desires. Such as those exploited by advertisers and getting us to buy things.

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Beenster:

The other thing, I find it opens me up to what I want to do. So if I ask the q "should I leave my job" and the answer comes back as "yes", what I will find is actually I don't want to leave. That sounds peverse and isn't a great example.

Actually, that makes a lot of sense. However, it seems to be contradicted by what you say next:

quote:
Originally posted by Beenster:

But I did a reading for someone recently who was umming and ahhing about moving out of her flat. The cards showed how much more there was for her out there if she moved. She decided to stay. I don't see that as a dud reading, more of an empowerment for her to know what to do. Two months down the line, she is back to square 1 tho and moving out now.

For divination, again, it helps me think. We can't know the future, or we can - but only as so far as "all other things being equal".

Which then in turn seems to be contradicted by what follows next:

quote:
Originally posted by Beenster:

I worry about those who cling to tarot for answers or directions. It's only going to lead to loss of £££ or $$$ and disappointment in one shape or form.

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:

quote:
how can a ridiculous deck of cards unconnected with anything predict anything.
Because they can help you access your own knowledge of the future. As can dreams.

That knowledge is nomally highly personal, short range, and either trivial ( if the matter is indifferent), or if not, only if it is the subject of intense feeling.

So, unfortunately, I can never manage to foreknow the lottery numbers. But my life is littered with instances which suggests to me that I stand not on an absolute line which is this present moment, with everything in front of that line unknowable - but rather in a blurry circle, with events or outcomes minutes, hours or even longer 'in the future' available to me. The knowledge comes either as a feeling of certainty, or a narrative (dreams) or is indicated by a suggestive image, such as the Tarot.

I think this level of precognition is ordinary and universal but generally ignored - though how often, in speaking of some crisis, do you not hear people say they 'just knew' something which shortly after turned out to be the case?

I hear this sort of thing quite a lot, both in Christian and non-Christian circles. Even when studying spiritual direction, we were taught to "trust our intuition". I had to speak up and question that-- maybe that's true for some people, but in my experience, it hasn't for been me. As I've reflected on it, my "inner truth" or intuition is almost always fear-based. If I'm asking myself a "should I..." question, the intuitive answer is always going to be "no."

And yet, I've found this fear-based intuition to be remarkably unreliable. Very, very few of my "what if" fears have actually transpired. I've found setting aside "intuitive" feelings and relying more on just raw reason and analysis to have a much better return rate.

That's all different from discernment, of course. I have had a couple of experiences where I felt what I would claim to be a true leading from God. I've found them compelling, and, no matter how they turned out, I've never regretted when I followed such a leading. But these experiences have been remarkably different from my "intuition". For one thing, they are relatively rare-- and cannot be summoned up on demand (fear-based intuition, otoh, is always eager to come to the party). For another, they are usually the exact opposite of what my intuition tells me in the situation (e.g. taking a risk).

Again, ymmv. But I do find it curious how many seem to assume intuition is a reliable predictor.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

Intuition is all I have. There is an argument that it is all anyone has, but that is another discussion, but for me (MBTI well off the scale of I) I have to use my intuition, not a logical process. I suspect that the use of cards would help to direct that, which is one reason I stay away. I could be unduly influenced, without the logical process getting in the way.

Is it reliable? IME yes, in that it gets to a conclusion quickly. It may not be the best conclusion, but it is usually pretty good. However, I have had a few years of training it and understanding it.

For me, I think it would be my logic that is driven by fear. If I worked out all that could go wrong, I would do nothing. If I just jump to an option without that, I can see the positive.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I don't think any of it accesses the unconscious or subconscious. Rather it provides some way of fulfilling some wish or desire, or confronting some fear.
And wishes, desires and fears aren't rooted in the unconscious? Why do I fear darkness or sp*ders? What is so acutely distressing about being momentarily physically hampered? Why am I drawn to the colour turquoise or to the scent of roses? I - and everyone IMO - is driven by memories, experiences and impulses lost to any conscious recollection. Possibly even coded into our DNA like a big nose or a bad temper.

We are largely irrational and we need ways of sidestepping rationality to understand that.

I agree with most of that, but the point about Tarot is that it contains a collection of symbols, or pictures, if you like. And symbols can connect us with unconscious stuff. I say 'can' because it's not automatic (for the people!).

But then you can find symbols anywhere, a particular tree on a walk, or a particular sky, can evoke stuff in me.

Incidentally, 'unconscious' doesn't mean not known, it means repressed, at least in psychoanalytic language. I don't know the capital of Peru, but it's not unconscious.

PS. I agree with cliffdweller, I think intuition is pretty unreliable. You also have to think.

[ 04. February 2016, 09:17: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

Yes, by 'unconscious' I mean present, but not acknowledged or recognised.

Like SC, for me it is the conscious, reasoning mind which is prone to timidity and panic and the intuitive which is calmer and more positive. I have had occasion to study some texts on Mindfulness lately, written by clinical psychologists from a CBT perspective. They seem to premise a calmer, stronger inner core that, by the recommended practices, can redress the stresses of the 'monkey mind'.

Certainly, as I have had recourse to it recently, I've seen the Tarot as belonging with the body awareness and breathing and candle staring and the like, as a means not of predicting the future, but of bringing me into the present moment.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

Yes, although it's interesting that there are currently warnings about mindfulness - in some people, it can produce panic, and even worse. I wonder if this connects with things like Tarot - some people should not indulge, not because they might invoke spooky stuff, but because it's not always a good idea to cross the border between conscious and unconscious stuff.

This is true of religion also; I remember some clients I had who were freaked out by religious symbols, but were also fascinated by them. I think there is something about ego-strength and boundaries here - as religious symbols are transpersonal, but not everyone should go into that. Better to do some cooking and listen to pop music, and dig the garden. The idea of God can be very dangerous.

Posted by beatmenace (# 16955) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I'm not sure I can remember a time when Dilbert didn't speak to my work situation.

You have talking animals working at your place as well?

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

Maybe I should say this very quietly, but it seems to me that there are a large number of people who read the bible as if it was a set of tarot cards (and/or a horoscope*).

* Sometimes more-or-less literally. Isn't it Walton Abbey that has an ornate painted horoscope on the ceiling?

Posted by Soror Magna (# 9881) on :

I collect Tarot decks, and as others have described above, I sometimes use Tarot as a sort of guided thought / meditation / wool-gathering aid. I've got about 30 decks and so far, I haven't noticed any heebie-jeebies.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

Whatever Ouija was developed for, it has been used for contacting, or attempting to contact spirits - in the inverted tumbler version, at any rate.

Some girls at my college got involved, after receiving a letter from someone at another college who had used one and contacted a deceased Catholic priest from Africa, who had committed a murder. I was pretty sceptical of this, and tagged along, making some suggestions as to how to avoid anyone influencing the results, so we started off by having one person recording the messages, but rotating through, so that it wasn't always the same group, and the possibility of someone pushing the thing deliberately was diminished. I also suggested strongly that we kept the lights on.

From this I learned that if the glass starts moving in any direction, everyone collaborates in magnifying the movement, that there was a particular person who wanted to be identified as psychic (I mucked that one up), and they all, except me, wanted someone connected with the priest from Africa to communicate. I also learned that people are pretty good at spotting who is stopping them get the results they want, as I was expelled from the session. The lights went off, and they started getting spooked. And I went and snitched to the Hall Tutor, the widow of a vicar, because I was very worried - not that they were getting in touch with something external and nasty, but that they were getting in touch with something internal and nasty. And that they wanted to.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

quote:
Originally posted by beatmenace:

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I'm not sure I can remember a time when Dilbert didn't speak to my work situation.
You have talking animals working at your place as well?

We normally call then support technicians these days.

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Isn't it Walton Abbey that has an ornate painted horoscope on the ceiling?

Waltham Abbey in Essex. Very impressive it is too.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

Penny S wrote:

quote:
And I went and snitched to the Hall Tutor, the widow of a vicar, because I was very worried - not that they were getting in touch with something external and nasty, but that they were getting in touch with something internal and nasty. And that they wanted to.

Very interesting point. The problem is how do we get in touch with something internal and nasty, without acting on it? (I'm assuming that this is healthy, I suppose opinions may vary).

Horror films spring to mind, or a good old-fashioned thriller, with tons of blood and sadism. Ah, that's better.

It used to be reading about a good murder in the News of the World (nice essay by Orwell on this).

I'll settle for footie. Where else can you express such intense envy, hatred, fear, and snobbery? Public school, maybe.

Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
They are playing cards in origin - in most of Europe, they still are.

Although it seems that possessing too many playing cards is a serious matter.

Posted by St. Gwladys (# 14504) on :

In a previous job, I was involved in "protection of property" when someone was taken into care or hospital and had no-one to keep an eye on their homes. Nearly all the cases where people had been "sectioned" for mental health issues, we found tarot cards or books dealing with the occult.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

quote:
Originally posted by St. Gwladys:
Nearly all the cases where people had been "sectioned" for mental health issues, we found tarot cards or books dealing with the occult.

The thing is, what is cause and what it effect? It may be that the occult has enhanced their mental health problems, or that they have such problems anyway, and the focus that the occult gives exacerbates this.

It could also be that their dabbling in the occult gives them mental health problems. Which would go against most medical understanding.

I think that people like me who have mental health problems may have a disposition to want to know what is going to happen. And who tend to be obsessive so when they get something that they can lean on, they lean too heavily and it controls their life.

The problem is, without some rigorous study, no causal link can be made.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

And what proportion of not-sectioned-for-mental-health-issues homes also have books about the occult? And how are they defined?
I've got an edition of Walter Scott's writings on Demonology and Witchcraft, which I have not read fully, but seems very sensible. But would that fall under the definition?

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Whatever Ouija was developed for, it has been used for contacting, or attempting to contact spirits - in the inverted tumbler version, at any rate.

Some girls at my college got involved, after receiving a letter from someone at another college who had used one and contacted a deceased Catholic priest from Africa, who had committed a murder. I was pretty sceptical of this, and tagged along, making some suggestions as to how to avoid anyone influencing the results, so we started off by having one person recording the messages, but rotating through, so that it wasn't always the same group, and the possibility of someone pushing the thing deliberately was diminished. I also suggested strongly that we kept the lights on.

From this I learned that if the glass starts moving in any direction, everyone collaborates in magnifying the movement, that there was a particular person who wanted to be identified as psychic (I mucked that one up), and they all, except me, wanted someone connected with the priest from Africa to communicate. I also learned that people are pretty good at spotting who is stopping them get the results they want, as I was expelled from the session. The lights went off, and they started getting spooked. And I went and snitched to the Hall Tutor, the widow of a vicar, because I was very worried - not that they were getting in touch with something external and nasty, but that they were getting in touch with something internal and nasty. And that they wanted to.

Perfect.

Which doesn't help! The Son of Man believed in, 'remembered' Satan. ... As soon as I used the quote marks, I could see how that could work. Jesus COULD have been describing His mind's eye. Not His pre-incarnate memory.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

quote:
Originally posted by St. Gwladys:
In a previous job, I was involved in "protection of property" when someone was taken into care or hospital and had no-one to keep an eye on their homes. Nearly all the cases where people had been "sectioned" for mental health issues, we found tarot cards or books dealing with the occult.

It's a ropey argument, as others have said. I used to visit mental hospitals as part of a research project, and some of the illest people I met were intensely religious.

Should we infer that religion makes you ill? I don't think so, although possibly some frail and vulnerable people find religious symbols rather overwhelming.

But then I've met people who'd read too much Dostoevsky, and suffered from it.

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

Did 'nearly all' the sectioned have fantasy novels? Or gory, forensics-heavy crime fiction? Or books by Stephen King?

There is a lot of popular culture which I avoid because it is a good deal more viscerally disturbing than a collection of anodyne images on playing cards.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

The problem is that it could be "religion makes you ill", or "ill people find solace in religion".

Or "Tarot and the occult makes you mentally unstable" or "people who are mentally unstable will try to find meaning in the occult".

There is nothing to indicate which of these is the right inference, or whether there is something else involved.

At the same time, maybe those who find tarot cards useful are people who would be able to use all sorts of other ways of finding their own ideas inside. We cannot draw snap conclusions without proper evidence.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

And again it's a chicken or egg thing. Does divination cause you to isolate and lose the ability for self care, or does isolation and losing the ability for self care make one fearful and desperate enough to see tarot or witchcraft as a potential for controlling their out of control lives?

Posted by jbohn (# 8753) on :

quote:
Originally posted by St. Gwladys:
Nearly all the cases where people had been "sectioned" for mental health issues, we found tarot cards or books dealing with the occult.

Correlation != causation.

Beware of cheese! 100% of people who eat cheese eventually die...

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

But we can also say that lots of religious people are not ill, and lots of ill people are not religious. I also suspect that lots of people who use Tarot are not ill.

I suppose you could do some more delicate statistical work, to see if X correlates with a stronger degree of Y, but then that doesn't equal causation, except in the tabloid newspapers, who are addicted to big statements of cause. So 'people who eat chocolate live longer', is converted to 'eating chocolate makes you live longer'. Not, not, not.

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
Beware of cheese! 100% of people who eat cheese eventually die...

Most people die in bed, therefore it's the most dangerous place to be.

Could we have some definitions of "occult"? I suspect that as in previous discussions the word means, and encompasses, different things for different people.

[ 05. February 2016, 17:23: Message edited by: Ariel ]

Posted by A Feminine Force (# 7812) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:

Could we have some definitions of "occult"? I suspect that as in previous discussions the word means, and encompasses, different things for different people.

Excellent idea.

Say what you like about biblical injunctions against divination, I have always regarded the Tarot and other tools like the I Ching and particularly the Elder Futhark as tools for self reflection.

As a (small g) gnostic, my feeling of connection with Divinity has always come at the price of recognizing and discharging the disowned and unloved aspects of myself that dwell in the realm of the subconscious, but which express themselves through seemingly involuntary words, beliefs and actions. My sins, as it were.

In this sense, the word occult simply means the same to me as "occluded" - or "masked from view" - as these things invariably are.

Tools like the Tarot and the Elder Futhark often facilitate recognition of undesirable patterns. I find these insights fuel a powerful impulse to renounce behaviours and ways of being that no longer serve. The operating mechanism for this is firmly grounded in my faith in Christ as the Great Physician and my Redeemer.

Though I don't work so much with the Tarot, I personally resonate with the symbolism of the Marseilles deck.

Mary K Greer wrote an excellent treatise on the Marseilles deck's archetypal imagery in Jung and the Tarot. I highly recommend it.

LAFF

[ 06. February 2016, 12:43: Message edited by: A Feminine Force ]

Posted by Jack o' the Green (# 11091) on :

The Anglican Priest and biblical scholar John Drane has written a positive book about Tarot cards called "Beyond Prediction: The Tarot and Your Spirituality"

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:

quote:
Originally posted by St. Gwladys:
In a previous job, I was involved in "protection of property" when someone was taken into care or hospital and had no-one to keep an eye on their homes. Nearly all the cases where people had been "sectioned" for mental health issues, we found tarot cards or books dealing with the occult.
It's a ropey argument, as others have said. I used to visit mental hospitals as part of a research project, and some of the illest people I met were intensely religious.

Should we infer that religion makes you ill? I don't think so, although possibly some frail and vulnerable people find religious symbols rather overwhelming.

But then I've met people who'd read too much Dostoevsky, and suffered from it.

I would say more that it is ill people looking for a cure. Whether they choose religion, tarot or ponderous Russian authors depends on their background.

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

Some choose the bottle.

Ailments of the mind are wide and varied. I've even heard of an Elvis impersonator who eventually sought therapy to cure something that had taken over completely.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jack o' the Green:
The Anglican Priest and biblical scholar John Drane has written a positive book about Tarot cards called "Beyond Prediction: The Tarot and Your Spirituality"

And very good it is - though I think he is a Scots presbyterian.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:

quote:
Originally posted by St. Gwladys:
In a previous job, I was involved in "protection of property" when someone was taken into care or hospital and had no-one to keep an eye on their homes. Nearly all the cases where people had been "sectioned" for mental health issues, we found tarot cards or books dealing with the occult.
It's a ropey argument, as others have said. I used to visit mental hospitals as part of a research project, and some of the illest people I met were intensely religious.

Should we infer that religion makes you ill? I don't think so, although possibly some frail and vulnerable people find religious symbols rather overwhelming.

But then I've met people who'd read too much Dostoevsky, and suffered from it.
I would say more that it is ill people looking for a cure. Whether they choose religion, tarot or ponderous Russian authors depends on their background.

Very good point. And it's often said that the cure can be worse than the original problem, or more precisely, that the self-cure is often the worse problem, and is very hard to shift. Quote, 'the traumatized psyche is self-traumatizing', (Kalsched), and even more dramatically expressed, 'few illness in a person are difficult to handle and cure. What is however most difficult is the patient's practice of self-cure', (Masud Khan).

Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :

quote:
Originally posted by A Feminine Force:
I have always regarded the Tarot and other tools like the I Ching and particularly the Elder Futhark as tools for self reflection.

This will sound horribly dismissive, but I thought Elder Futhark was a writing system? Could one obtain similar insights from Pre-Revolutionary Cyrillic?

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

It is a runic writing system and runes are used in divination.
But it always sounded like a Lovecraft character name to me.

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
This will sound horribly dismissive, but I thought Elder Futhark was a writing system? Could one obtain similar insights from Pre-Revolutionary Cyrillic?

It is a writing system but there is a certain following for runes, which stand for concepts as well as letters. Mystical insights may also be gained from the Hebrew alphabet on a similar basis; the Hebrew alphabet also has numerical equivalents, which add weight to that. That's quite an old system dating back centuries.

Posted by A Feminine Force (# 7812) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
This will sound horribly dismissive, but I thought Elder Futhark was a writing system? Could one obtain similar insights from Pre-Revolutionary Cyrillic?

As far as I can tell, all writing systems are "magical" - as semiotic systems that contain meanings beyond the sonogram implied by the symbol. There's a reason why when we use letters to form words, we are "spelling".

One of the apocrypha related to Jesus' infancy tells the story of how Jesus was assigned a tutor who tried to teach Him the rudiments of Hebrew. The rabbi drew the letter "aleph" in the sand and said "This is aleph". Jesus asked the rabbi "What means aleph?"

The rabbi, instead of telling him that it doesn't mean anything, it's only a cipher( a typically western empirical notion), declined to elaborate on the deeper esoteric significance of the letter, and simply said "You don't need to know what it means. Just know that this is aleph. Now, pay attention, this is the letter bet."

The exasperated boy Jesus retorts "What kind of teacher are you? If you can't teach me what is aleph how can you possibly teach me what is bet?"

The rabbi is reported to have struck Jesus for his insolence, upon which Jesus uttered a curse and the rabbi dropped dead. I suspect that this is one of the reasons why the story remains outside the canon.

It so happens that the glyphs of the Elder Futhark conform to the 2 dimensional shadows of a three dimensional information pathway known as Metatron's cube. For added measure, they are supposed to be scribed in wood and stained with blood, but I don't feel that this is necessary. Mine are engraved on glass.

There's a good video about the cubic shadow here:

Runic Language

Of course we know who Metatron is ...

It doesn't seem to me to make much difference whether the symbols are pictograms as in the Tarot, or ciphers, like alphabets. As a mentor of mine told me once, "Chris, everything has deep meaning, it is only we who are shallow".

LAFF

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

I think that you could probably make anything out of that Solomon's Seal with sufficient lines drawn across it. Rather like looking for astronomical directions at Stonehenge. I notice that it takes shapes which are usually drawn with strong verticals and twists them round to whatever angle makes them work.

Meanwhile, I have consulted my grandparent's blessing box on the matter of divination. (My mother was scathing about the thing. It is a small box full of tiny scrolls, each of which contains a quotation from the Bible.) Two draws produced quotes about not being reluctant to pray, and God being faithful to those who do. Not, except obliquely, answers to the question.

The third produced one of the less pleasant of the scrolls - I once unrolled the lot to see what they all said, and I know they are there. It said that the silver is all God's and so is the gold. The box is designed to remind the users now and again, in the manner of a megachurch pastor, that they should pay up to whatever church they belong to.

I shall think about this.

And about the horns of the ox head, and the house.

[ 07. February 2016, 22:18: Message edited by: Penny S ]

Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on :

quote:
Of course we know who Metatron is ...

I know who he was [Frown]

Posted by A Feminine Force (# 7812) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:

quote:
Of course we know who Metatron is ...

I know who he was

Funny you should mention it - I can't think of Metatron without thinking of him.

LAFF

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

I am sure one could construct a mystic gematriology built upon ordinary letters, except that they are ordinary. Perhaps when everything has gone digital, we can all read binary machine code in its raw form and ordinary letters have gone the same way as runes, somebody will do.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

In the far future, somebody with a knack for digital archaeology will enter the vaults of the cybersphere and dig up a quaint little website called Ship of Fools, combining the archaic letters to build a prediction of the future (most likely to be found in Martin60's posts).

Posted by hatless (# 3365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:

quote:
Originally posted by St. Gwladys:
Nearly all the cases where people had been "sectioned" for mental health issues, we found tarot cards or books dealing with the occult.
The thing is, what is cause and what it effect? It may be that the occult has enhanced their mental health problems, or that they have such problems anyway, and the focus that the occult gives exacerbates this.

It could also be that their dabbling in the occult gives them mental health problems. Which would go against most medical understanding.

I think that people like me who have mental health problems may have a disposition to want to know what is going to happen. And who tend to be obsessive so when they get something that they can lean on, they lean too heavily and it controls their life.

The problem is, without some rigorous study, no causal link can be made.

Twenty five years ago I remember meeting numerous psychiatric patients who had religious delusions: 'You know the second person of the Trinity? That's me, that is'.

These days when I know far more mentally ill patients it seems much rarer. That will in part be because I see fewer new admissions now; the newer patients generally have more bizarre behaviours and ideas. But I suspect that there are, for want of a better word, fashions in these things, and that religious and occult ideas are out of favour.

Perhaps culturally or environmentally determined would be a better word than fashion. There was much talk about 'hysterical' symptoms in the recent past: paralysis, blindness, disease mimicry. There were outbreaks of uncontrollable dancing in medieval times, and others of incessant walking. Ergot poisoning is a possible factor, but I don't think we should underestimate how far our behaviour is shaped by the thinking and expectations of our time.

We live in a relatively unsuperstitious time. Who would have thought that tarot could be discussed in such a relaxed manner as is happening here.

Posted by Paul. (# 37) on :

Hatless, I wonder if it has to do with a decline in general religious knowledge in the UK. Are there are more people claiming to be aliens or Batman than Jesus these days?

Posted by hatless (# 3365) on :

Yes, less religious knowledge, but also less interest in ghosts, ESP, seances and the rest. When you think back there were so many films about paranormal things, books and tv series, too. We've moved from X-Files to X-Factor, and you can see the difference in your local PICU (as they like to call them: Psychiatric Intensive Care Unit, pronounced 'P Q'. Makes me think of Pokemon.)

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

It seems there's quite a number of superhero films at the time though. I am Superman!!

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

I'm sure this is cod psychiatry, but I'd have thought that people with that kind of mental illness latch onto something in their experience that makes some sense of it. Even if it only makes sense inside their head.

The difference (from the outside) between saying "I'm Jesus!" and saying "I'm batman" is (presumably) that the prevailing attitude in the past was that Jesus Christ was a real character of history, whereas Batman has only ever been a literary character.

So it might actually make sense to convince yourself that you are Jesus: here is a historical/religious character from the past who we all know did amazing/miraculous things that only a God can do. And here is another miraculous unexpected thing he has done: returned to Earth! And I'm him!

Batman is harder to explain to yourself. You've have to be persuaded that the character from the films and comic books was based on a real character that has been totally ignored by society, and that Ah-ha! I am that person!

Well maybe that's completely wrong, but what I know from small children is that they often don't have much problem distinguishing "pretend" from "real", but have more difficulty categorising the way different kinds of "real" things interact with each other.

Posted by hatless (# 3365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I'm sure this is cod psychiatry, but I'd have thought that people with that kind of mental illness latch onto something in their experience that makes some sense of it. Even if it only makes sense inside their head.

I think that's good psychiatry.

I'm not so sure about the real/literary distinction. I think that Jesus and Napoleon (once, apparently, not these days) are popular choices because they represent such power and authority. Psychiatrists talk about grandiose delusions, and it's grandiosity rather than reality that Jesus offers. Superman is a kids' comic book character, and all the super heroes come in rather fun, clean, even tongue in cheek stories.

Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on :

It strikes me that even conspiracy theories and such modern myths also relate to the occult and supernatural much less than they used to. Chemtrails and fluoride and high-ranking paedophiles are the new aliens, it seems.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

Ordinary letters can be used for stuff, by giving them numerical vales and then doing sums with them, which can give names numerical values, which can then be looked up for divination purposes. I seem to remember.

I could probably work out a system using the raindrops on the window, if I put my mind to it.

Posted by A Feminine Force (# 7812) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Ordinary letters can be used for stuff, by giving them numerical vales and then doing sums with them, which can give names numerical values, which can then be looked up for divination purposes. I seem to remember.

I could probably work out a system using the raindrops on the window, if I put my mind to it.

Certainly if it can be done with tea leaves and coffee grounds, it can be done with raindrops.

To repeat my mentor's maxim, "Everything has deep meaning , it is only we who are shallow".

Indeed, Umberto Eco explored this idea in Foucault's Pendulum, where a group of cynical book editors decided to cobble together a theory about the location of the Axis Mundi, based on various esoteric treatises and references, only to completely lose control of their narrative and descend into insanity.

Again, with the "magical letter systems" and "spelling" - when you concoct a narrative, you cast a spell.

LAFF

[ 08. February 2016, 15:42: Message edited by: A Feminine Force ]

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

However, let me register a protest against deep meaning, and a plea for shallow meaning. Well, 'shallow' is the wrong word here also. Let us dance on the surface of life sometimes, and rage against hermeneutics!

Posted by hatless (# 3365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:

I could probably work out a system using the raindrops on the window, if I put my mind to it.

Pluviofenestramancy.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

And gramarye and grammar are cognate.

Back in the day, when most people were illiterate, what would it have looked like?

It turns out that spell had a lot of early meanings, in Old and Middle English, and in French, such as, speaking, telling, reciting, interpreting, preaching, doctrine, sermon, gospel, story, tale, command, fable, myth,

Spelling in the sense of building words from letters is 14th century.

Spell as an occult charm is first recorded in the 1570s.

Giving something a name doesn't make a working system! Though pluviofenestramancy sounds good.

[ 08. February 2016, 18:18: Message edited by: Penny S ]

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

English is a muddle. False cognation is easier than proper cognition.

[ 08. February 2016, 18:26: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
English is a muddle. False cognation is easier than proper cognition.

Quotes File!

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

I think the date of first use is quite indicative.

I had a serious putdown delivered when I had quoted Kipling's use of "gramarye". Maybe the putterdowner was wrong.

[ 08. February 2016, 18:54: Message edited by: Penny S ]

Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
It strikes me that even conspiracy theories and such modern myths also relate to the occult and supernatural much less than they used to. Chemtrails and fluoride and high-ranking paedophiles are the new aliens, it seems.

Well, a variation these days is for the theorist to claim that the conspirators themselves are into the occult, which allows him to pander to the reader's fascination with magic etc, while not actually admitting to such an interest himself.

Here is just one example.

As well, you probably remember the "Satanic Ritual Abuse" panic in the early 90s. Most of the people promoting that were secular(social workers and whatnot), who didn't beleive in demoic magic themselves, only that the alleged Satanists did. But, of course, telling those stories over and over again gave them the chance to indulge a taste for titillating imagery of blood-drinking and mass orgies.

Plus, you do still have people like Icke etc who bring space aliens into it, those entities being basically materialistic stand-ins for the angels and demons of an earlier, less scientific age.

[ 08. February 2016, 19:05: Message edited by: Stetson ]

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