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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Prayer for an atheist
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
A recent Church of England message of goodwill and prayer to a prominent atheist has caused a hooha by those who think that he should not be prayed for.
Should we Christians only pray for fellow Christians? Or only for people of faith, if we think they believe in the same God as us? I think that this idea is ludicrous.
Prayer equates with kindness. I wouldn't foist open prayer upon someone who didn't want it, but I do let people know I am praying for them, and they usually appreciate it even when they don't believe, as they know that it is genuine.
What do you think?
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Bibaculus
Shipmate
# 18528
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Posted
I don't think it was the praying itself (and why would one not pray for an atheist?), but the fact the CofE chose to announce it on Twitter, which seemed like a provocative act.
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A jumped up pantry boy who never knew his place
Posts: 257 | From: In bed. Mostly. When I can get away with it. | Registered: Dec 2015
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Point of information: Who are raising the hooha, Christians, or atheists?
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
The CofE regualrly tweets prayers for many different people and situations...
This post was not unusual
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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starbelly
but you can call me Neil
# 25
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Posted
I don't mind if people pray for me, or they can just shout into the wind if they prefer, or post it on twitter - it is not a problem to me! (it's not my time that is being wasted...)
Neil
Posts: 6009 | From: High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire. | Registered: May 2001
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
Matthew 6:3: But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing.
And don't announce on Twitter that you are praying for them.
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:
And don't announce on Twitter that you are praying for them.
The point of the C of E's prayer announcements on twitter is to encourage people to join in the prayers. There's no difference between tweeting a prayer for Prof. Dawkins and praying for him in the intercessions on a Sunday morning.
Or, indeed, charity fundraising. If you go to your friends and tell them "here's this great charity that's doing fantastic work and I'd like you to support them" then you are telling your friends about your charitable actions - but you're doing it for a "good" reason.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
Who is there for whom no one should pray?
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
Who is there for whom no one should pray?
Some would say "the dead."
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
If you go to your friends and tell them "here's this great charity that's doing fantastic work and I'd like you to support them" then you are telling your friends about your charitable actions - but you're doing it for a "good" reason.
I don't usually tell my friends which charities I support.
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:
And don't announce on Twitter that you are praying for them.
The point of the C of E's prayer announcements on twitter is to encourage people to join in the prayers. There's no difference between tweeting a prayer for Prof. Dawkins and praying for him in the intercessions on a Sunday morning.
Of course there is a difference. Twitter is essentially a tannoy. You are equating addressing people in a room v. broadcasting your message in every village square you can.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Point of information: Who are raising the hooha, Christians, or atheists?
All I've heard from Christians is consternation about the hooha, and defence of the prayer extended.
Some Christians do pray for those who have died.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
Some Christians do pray for those who have died.
I never claimed otherwise.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:
I don't usually tell my friends which charities I support.
Just to be inconsistent: I think Lend with Care is great.
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Of course there is a difference. Twitter is essentially a tannoy. You are equating addressing people in a room v. broadcasting your message in every village square you can.
A church is a public space open to anyone wanting to come and pray and worship. Geography limits the possible attendance to those who are nearby.
Someone's tweets occupy a virtual public space open to anyone who chooses to listen. If you don't want to listen, don't - it's a self-selecting audience (In that sense it's not like a tannoy in the public square). And, as you say, there's no geographic limit (although one might assume that the Church of England would attract a larger audience in England than elsewhere).
So when the C of E tweets, it's addressing the set of people who choose to listen to C of E tweets. Very much like someone preaching from the pulpit is addressing the set of people who chose to come to church that day.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
I have heard many things that have been tweeted or posted to Instagram or Facebook that I never saw on those apps.
So, yeah.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
No prayer said ever actually benefits the person being prayed for. If a person like RD improved in some way - which he will anyway - then it is entirely due to his own mind and 100% coincidental to (with?) any prayers being said.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Interesting, if Dawkins' views have changed. He was a militant atheist for a long time.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
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Doone
Shipmate
# 18470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Interesting, if Dawkins' views have changed. He was a militant atheist for a long time.
That's what I understood. If he has mellowed, that is interesting.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doone:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Interesting, if Dawkins' views have changed. He was a militant atheist for a long time.
That's what I understood. If he has mellowed, that is interesting.
Next step: deism!
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Doone
Shipmate
# 18470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Doone:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Interesting, if Dawkins' views have changed. He was a militant atheist for a long time.
That's what I understood. If he has mellowed, that is interesting.
Next step: deism!
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Posts: 2208 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2015
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David Goode
Shipmate
# 9224
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Interesting, if Dawkins' views have changed. He was a militant atheist for a long time.
I don't think he's ever described himself as an atheist, let alone a militant one. I think that's been other people's label for him.
Posts: 654 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Mar 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
No prayer said ever actually benefits the person being prayed for. If a person like RD improved in some way - which he will anyway - then it is entirely due to his own mind and 100% coincidental to (with?) any prayers being said.
Yes we know you believe this. But does it offend you if someone says they will pray for you? Or do you take it as a sign that they care about you and want the best for you, even if you yourself do not believe their prayer will "work"?
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
No prayer said ever actually benefits the person being prayed for.
This assertion is not the truth. The prayers of others have been of benefit to me, and to many people I know personally.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
I think Dawkins has often said that he's an agnostic since he admits a very slight possibility that God might exist. But so slight as to be not worth worrying about, which approximates atheism. Every so often there's a breaking news story that he's changed his mind about atheism and become agnostic but I don't think this is anything new.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
It makes me feel good to know others are praying for me, and that is of great benefit. Even if their prayers aren't "answered" in the sense of divine intervention, they have benefitted me. Knowing that you are loved is beneficial. I think it would be foolish and unscientific to claim otherwise, given the immense body of evidence supporting this truth.
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
No prayer said ever actually benefits the person being prayed for.
This assertion is not the truth. The prayers of others have been of benefit to me, and to many people I know personally.
This assertion is not the truth. It is your belief, as is SusanDoris' statement her belief.
Neither statement is verifiable TRUTH.
[ 15. February 2016, 18:03: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Even if it's not verifiable truth, it can still be true.
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
No prayer said ever actually benefits the person being prayed for. If a person like RD improved in some way - which he will anyway - then it is entirely due to his own mind and 100% coincidental to (with?) any prayers being said.
Yes we know you believe this. But does it offend you if someone says they will pray for you? Or do you take it as a sign that they care about you and want the best for you, even if you yourself do not believe their prayer will "work"?
On the odd (two?) occasions that people have said they would pray for me since I (partially) came out as a non-believer, YES I was offended - it seemed to me that these individuals were only wishing that I would return to their belief system. I did not detect any care for me as I am . The 'best' that they wanted for me was to become like them.
Fortunately very few Christians have offended me in this way. I hope it stays that way when I fully come out in the next few weeks.
In general terms I think it was unwise to poublicise the fact that the CofE was seeking prayer for Richard Dawkins and I think that is offensive. What Bibaculus said ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
It makes me feel good to know others are praying for me, and that is of great benefit. Even if their prayers aren't "answered" in the sense of divine intervention, they have benefitted me. Knowing that you are loved is beneficial. I think it would be foolish and unscientific to claim otherwise, given the immense body of evidence supporting this truth.
Indeed. The fact that you know yourself to feel benefitted obviously makes a lie of the bald statement that prayers don't benefit the people being prayed for. So far as I know my medical condition isn't responding miraculously to the prayers of the many people kindly keeping me in their thoughts and prayers. But the fact they pray for me keeps me encouraged and positive, because of their kindness. So I'm signing in as definitely benefited, too. Not being prayed for, in fact, would make the situation considerably worse.
What SusanDoris is trying to say, I suppose, is that 'prayer', as a thing, isn't a separate power in itself and nothing 'supernatural' occurs when people pray. Beneficial effects felt by those who are being prayed for are apparently down to mere physics, chemical reactions and brain electrics doing its stuff.
Critics of the 'prayer doesn't work' line will point to studies of those who, unaware of being prayed for, don't feel any different, or whose healing path doesn't differ from the average. But maybe trying to analyze prayer scientifically just isn't possible.
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
On the odd (two?) occasions that people have said they would pray for me since I (partially) came out as a non-believer, YES I was offended - it seemed to me that these individuals were only wishing that I would return to their belief system. I did not detect any care for me as I am . The 'best' that they wanted for me was to become like them.
Have you ever prayed for anyone? If so, was your motivation that they would become a believer, or that you cared about them?
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Macrina
Shipmate
# 8807
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Posted
I can't really see Dawkins being that put out by being prayed for. I wouldn't mind being prayed for though I (in my less gracious moments) have to bite my tongue and prevent myself from asking what good it does. I think its kind of people to do this for me and shows concern and care.
As for the Atheist vs Agnostic debate there is a passage in 'the God Delusion' where he talks about degrees of belief in a similar way to the Kinsey scale talks about sexuality.
IIRC he talks about hardline Atheism (certainty that God does not exist) as being relatively rare and comparable to certainty that God does exist (theism or conventional religious belief) he rates himself as an Agnostic who is convinced of the lack of evidence to the degree that it does not affect his life but does not state certainty around the non-existence of God as he accepts there isn't convincing evidence either way. I think this is called Atheism in principle and is what most Atheists (including me) are.
Posts: 535 | From: Christchurch, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
A lot of atheists seem to use the term 'agnostic atheist' which seems accurate for most of them, i.e. they are not 100% sure. 6 on the Dawkins scale, I think, where 7 is sure.
I find it irritated to be informed I will be prayed for. No thanks.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Jemima the 9th
Shipmate
# 15106
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Posted
I don't suppose Dawkins would be that annoyed about being prayed for, but I thought tweeting about praying for him was tactless at best. At worst, it sounded a bit to me like the CofE comms office staff going, "hurr hurr, I know what'll be really funny, hurr hurr, let's pray for Dawkins and then tweet that we're doing it. That'll annoy him, hurr hurr." Point scoring, basically.
I appreciate there are 2 lots of attempted mind-reading in that paragraph! ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Why tweet that you're praying at all? We're told, aren't we, that no one should know what we're praying for but God? I would think that someone seeing the news and feeling concerned for Dawkins & wishing him well would pray without being told to do so. And people not much inclined to pray for him are unlikely to do so on the basis of a tweet.
Certain people in the CofE are far too obsessed with Dawkins, and really need to get over him.
And why does the CofE have a comms dept if they put out such rubbish? It's all part of Christianity as product, as mentioned on other threads. And it's infantilising to the congregations, another thing the church can be good at.
Grump grump grump...
Posts: 801 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2009
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
On the odd (two?) occasions that people have said they would pray for me since I (partially) came out as a non-believer, YES I was offended - it seemed to me that these individuals were only wishing that I would return to their belief system. I did not detect any care for me as I am . The 'best' that they wanted for me was to become like them.
Have you ever prayed for anyone? If so, was your motivation that they would become a believer, or that you cared about them?
I don't ever remember telling a non-believer that I would pray for them though I'm sure I did say such prayers.
This is what one of our friends wrote after learning of the change in my belief system:
quote:
We …… are sorry that your spiritual journey has lead you in this direction. Needless to say, we will continue to pray for you all as a family, but especially that you will allow the Lord who you've served for so many years, to reveal Himself to you again and that you will respond in repentance and faith. Possibly the circles you have ministered in in recent years have not fed you spiritually in the way that could have built up your faith and not diminished it in this way. Possibly too, you are tired at the end of a long period of service. We know that 'pastoring the flock' is not an easy task and sometimes it demands more than we recognise, so we shall continue lifting you up to the Lord Jesus and know He will deal with you in His mercy.
Do you see why I was offended? There is no recognition of the recent journey that I have made nor of the place where I am today. It seems to me to be all about them and what they think is best for me, that I become again like them.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Mark Wuntoo: Do you see why I was offended?
Yes.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
Do you see why I was offended? There is no recognition of the recent journey that I have made nor of the place where I am today. It seems to me to be all about them and what they think is best for me, that I become again like them.
I can see why that is how it looks to you, but I can also see their pov. It comes across as if they are puzzled how you could fall away from the happy place of strong faith and ministry that you were in, and are hoping and praying for its restoration as they care about you.
They may well see atheism as a sad place to be, a place of missing out. I used not to believe, and now I do, and I know the joy.
I am fully aware that some atheists think I am at a sad place too, perhaps particularly those who used to believe?
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Mark Wuntoo - Come on, man, that's not prayer, it's 24 carat arrogant narcissistic BS. 'We just want to tell you how wrong you are, but in the meantime here are some kind words.' Fuck off.
[ 15. February 2016, 19:14: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
They may well see atheism as a sad place to be, a place of missing out. I used not to believe, and now I do, and I know the joy.
Interesting ... when chatting with friends with whom I share mutual respect, I have sometimes said what a joy I felt when I changed direction - I recall C S Lewis's 'Surprised by joy' which is exactly what I felt. I can see that some Christians might be offended by that, which is why I say it with care!
quote:
I am fully aware that some atheists think I am at a sad place too, perhaps particularly those who used to believe?
My non-theism accepts and respects that others believe (we've had threads on that subject before).
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Okay, good call, M.W.
I should have distinguished between "prayer for return to the fold" (or "entry for the first time into the fold") and "prayer for well-being."
I know several people who at one time counted themselves believers but now no longer do. Some I know well enough to say, "I know you may not feel it 'does anything' but I'm going to pray about your job situation/ health/ marriage/ whatever." Some of these, based on my relationship with them, I told "if you don't mind" and some I told "whether you want me to or not" (their knowing me to be a smartarse and my knowing them to have a sense of humor about it). In all instances it was well-received and appreciated.
It has been ages since I grew out of telling people I would try to pray them into the Kingdom. It seems manipulative.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I think Dawkins has often said that he's an agnostic since he admits a very slight possibility that God might exist. But so slight as to be not worth worrying about, which approximates atheism. Every so often there's a breaking news story that he's changed his mind about atheism and become agnostic but I don't think this is anything new.
True. He distinguishes between atheism being a belief (or lack of), and agnosticism being a state of knowing (or lack of). So it's perfectly possible to be both agnostic while being an atheist or theist.
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
OK sorry if I derailed.
Perhaps to make amends ... I do struggle somewhat with the idea of 'prayer for well-being'. No problem whatsoever if people want to pray for my well-being - just don't tell me. Amongst people who believe in prayer it is likely to work, I believe.
Some years ago, whilst I was still a believer, a member of our family became very, very ill. It happened that a worldwide network of Christians 'appeared', praying for my relative. It was a great experience for all of us and it worked in the sense that we all drew great comfort from knowing that people cared so much. I will never forget that experience and, I hope, will always be grateful to those good people.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
As I see the example given by MW above, this is just people from a particular worldview and language explaining events in the only way they can make sense of them. I don't see that there is any point in getting offended - if you don't believe that prayer does anything, then it has no effect and getting offended is only going to harm the relationship further.
I fully appreciate that leaving one lifestyle and language to another is going to be difficult for everyone to adjust to.
In the example in the OP, I think this was just daft public relations by the CofE. No need to do that, nothing to be gained other than shooting oneself in the foot.
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arse
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
It just seems narcissistic to me. It has to be phrased from their point of view, with little perspective on his, and really, a kind of covert denigration of his.
(I mean the prayer quoted by Mark Wuntoo).
[ 15. February 2016, 20:46: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Anglican_Brat
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# 12349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
No prayer said ever actually benefits the person being prayed for. If a person like RD improved in some way - which he will anyway - then it is entirely due to his own mind and 100% coincidental to (with?) any prayers being said.
Well I guess it boils down to how you define "benefit." It would be rather narrow to define benefit as simply being cured of one's disease.
To use a secular equivalent to prayer, saying 'I love you' to your spouse as he or she is going through a difficult illness, will not cure him or her of that disease. So, in terms of physical healing, saying "I love you" is of little benefit, either. But I don't think most people would see it as a reason to not say "I love you" to one's spouse.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I have heard many things that have been tweeted or posted to Instagram or Facebook that I never saw on those apps.
So, yeah.
You mean that people have told you about them, or they have been reported in the press, or something like that? I'm certain that's true, but I'm afraid the relevance eludes me - I don't see how that differs from you reading an account of a public meeting in the press, or a friend telling you all about the crazy thing the priest said in the sermon, or whatever.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jemima the 9th:
Why tweet that you're praying at all? We're told, aren't we, that no one should know what we're praying for but God? I would think that someone seeing the news and feeling concerned for Dawkins & wishing him well would pray without being told to do so.
We have an ongoing thread in All Saints devoted to people asking for prayers. Asking fellow Christians to pray with you is not exactly unusual.
Speaking purely for myself, I hadn't heard that Professor Dawkins had had a stroke. Now I know - and to save your concern about whether my hands are on speaking terms, I won't tell you whether or not I have been / will be praying for him.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Even if it's not verifiable truth, it can still be true.
Just pointing out that neither statement had more weight than the other.
There may well be an ultimate truth, but so far no one has definitive proof of it.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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