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Originally posted by SusanDoris:
As you may recall, I arranged to spend a day with the Sisters of Bethany in order to find out personally something about religious orders. ...
I came away with a feeling that, kind and hospitable though they were, there did not appear to be any interest in my questions or opinions.
I was disappointed that, although I had made it quite clear the reason for my visit, no-one had taken notice of it.

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SusanDoris: there did not appear to be any interest in my questions or opinions.

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I'm confused. You state that the reason for your visit was "to find out personally something about religious orders." You then state that you are disappointed they did not engage with your questions or opinions, but instead carried on with... well, the business of being a religious order!

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]Was your purpose indeed to find out something about religious orders? Or was it to have a discussion of atheism?

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Originally posted by LeRoc:

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SusanDoris: there did not appear to be any interest in my questions or opinions.

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Could you give us an idea of the kind of questions and opinions you put forward?

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there did not appear to be any interest in my questions or opinions.

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Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I came away with a feeling that, kind and hospitable though they were, there did not appear to be any interest in my questions or opinions.

Then I had an interesting conversation with the Vicar. His knowledge of the Order and Anglicanism was evidently wide and authoritative, but he did not have responses for an atheist.

I had taken a printed copy of the OP, at which he glanced but made no direct comment, or even get as far as the second paragraph. Had he known the purpose of my visit, I think he might even have enjoyed an exchange of views, but that had not happened. I also asked him about how he thinks of the prayer process, but I’ll bet he had never been asked that question before.

I think he was somewhat flummoxed.

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Originally posted by Evangeline:

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there did not appear to be any interest in my questions or opinions.

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"Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."

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Originally posted by SusanDoris:
. I also asked him about how he thinks of the prayer process, but I’ll bet he had never been asked that question before.
I think he was somewhat flummoxed.

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by SusanDoris:
[qb].
But I doubt very much that he was at all surprised or " flummoxed" by your questions. And I would be willing to bet cash money that you were not the first person by a long shot who had ever asked him about prayer.

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No, it was not to have a discussion about atheism, but I had hoped that someone would mention, if only briefly, why or how she had chosen this way of life. But one can never tell how such plans will work out. ,

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Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
In my experience with monastics, many are quite cautious in sharing their own journey.

Asking them about their own spiritual journey or vocation is like asking a married couple about their private life. I suspect that as a first time visitor, they might not have felt comfortable that a certain level of trust has been established before they share that information with you.

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Originally posted by Angloid:
I felt for Susan Doris that her obviously genuine interest was ignored, not just by the nuns but even more by those shipmates above who have made condescending comments.

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Yeah, I can be ungracious some times. I'm glad the nuns were at least gracious and welcoming. Thanks for putting it in a better perspective.
 

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Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :
 
Sometimes questions aren't answered because they really can't be answered as asked, or not without relaxed time to consider how to answer.

For example, if prayer is primarily experiencing God in ways for which there are not words, then "the prayer process" is not a valid concept, or not one that can easily be put into words meaningful to someone unacquainted with that experience.

The first time I read "cloud of unknowing" I sensed I couldn't understand what it was saying because it was about something un-describable except to others with similar experience.
 

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Posted by Anglican_Brat (# 12349) on :
 
I wonder how fruitful it is for an atheist and a religious person to discuss about a vocation such as monastic life. Because ultimately for many religious (in the monastic sense), the reason for one's vocation is a call from God, a concept that an atheist a priori rejects.

Monastic community life is not easy, far from it. It means not just renouncing property and the possibility of married life, it means living in community for the rest of one's life. Monastic community is also about renouncing your choice in deciding who to live with. If you enter an order, you are stuck with whoever is there, and they might not be to your liking.

In terms of vocation, the best reason given for joining a monastic life is that one feels a call from God. Perhaps one reason, SusanDoris, why you didn't receive much counsel on your question is that the people you encountered probably wondered how fruitful a conversation would be. How would an atheist respond to the answer, "God called me to this life" without dismissing it as delusional or mistaken?

[ 19. February 2016, 05:02: Message edited by: Anglican_Brat ]
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Susan--

Sorry it wasn't what you'd hoped. There are lots of books by and about people in religious orders, both non-fiction and fiction.

I'll have to think a bit about a non-fiction book. But there's a novel that several Shipmates have loved: "In This House Of Brede", by Rumer Godden. It's about a British civil service executive who sort of stumbles into entering a cloistered convent. (Anglican version of Benedictines, IIRC.) None of the characters are plaster saints. (Do people use that phrase in the UK?) They've got pretty much the same stuff to work out in their lives as everyone else does, within the convent's framework.

Actually, you might also try Thomas Merton's non-fiction works. He was a Trappist monk, here in the US. Wonderful writer. IIRC, "The Seven-Story Mountain" is the one about becoming a monk. I was fond of "New Seeds Of Contemplation".

If you want to look at non-Christian monasteries and communities, you might try Jack Kornfield's "A Path With Heart". He's Buddhist, and was an Asian forest monastery for some time, and moved through other stages--family, teacher, etc. Some of his monastic experiences are in the book.

FWIW. YMMV.
 

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Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :
 
Very many thanks for all the thoughtful posts above. I suppose in a way I was expecting those who live a religious life, in whatever form, would be like SofF members - interested in discussing, communicating and sharing their views;
maybe they are, but maybe only with those who agree with their beliefs.


I' cannot judge on such short acquaintance of course, but the impression keeps coming to mind - I've been thinking about the day all the time, except for tap time yesterday - that they insulate themselves with a sort of soundabsorbing layr.

I shall enjoy taking time to read again and respond to all your interesting posts later today.
 

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Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :
 
SusanDoris, I'm sorry you didn't find the answers you were looking for, maybe you could try writing to them. You might find that they are better able to address your questions after some thought.

I think it is hard sometimes to get an understanding of a new culture with a short visit. I don't think this is just about those living in a monastery either, if one was to visit anywhere where something was going on with intense concentration it might well be difficult to get answers to general questions.

I have been trying to think of anything I've experienced which is similar. Perhaps visiting a blacksmith, a jeweller or watchmaker. If they're trying to sell to the customer, they might well stop and acknowledge visitors - but there have been times when I've walked into small workshops and workers have been so occupied with what they were doing that they didn't know I was there, never mind ready to answer questions.

Imagine I was to contact the blacksmith and make arrangements to visit, saying that I wanted to understand more about the work but that I didn't believe traditional blacksmithing was necessary in the 21 century. A very polite blacksmith might invite you to his workshop to watch him working, he might take a few minutes to explain what he is doing and so on. But if he is busy with work, I don't think he is going to want to get into your questions about the redundancy of blacksmithing in the modern era. He isn't blacksmithing for show or as an act, he is doing it for his job and he has just invited you to witness him doing it.

I accept this isn't a perfect parallel to what you experienced. And maybe there was a level of disorganisation at the convent or maybe someone failed to pass on a message or forgot to do something.

But just as easily, I think, the sisters might have decided that they were busy with doing their daily routine, that you were welcome to come and witness and be involved but that nobody had time to answer detailed questions that needed proper preparation.

[ 19. February 2016, 07:02: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
 

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Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 

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Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Very many thanks for all the thoughtful posts above. I suppose in a way I was expecting those who live a religious life, in whatever form, would be like SofF members - interested in discussing, communicating and sharing their views;
maybe they are, but maybe only with those who agree with their beliefs.

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I suppose in a way I was expecting those who live a religious life, in whatever form, would be like SofF members - interested in discussing, communicating and sharing their views;
maybe they are, but maybe only with those who agree with their beliefs.

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Shakespeare's poetry is only really about getting a shag

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Originally posted by fletcher christian:
In my experience they're more inclined to listen.

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Originally posted by IngoB:
But in order to listen, one has to stop talking.

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Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Posted by Susan:

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I suppose in a way I was expecting those who live a religious life, in whatever form, would be like SofF members - interested in discussing, communicating and sharing their views;
maybe they are, but maybe only with those who agree with their beliefs.

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In my experience they're more inclined to listen.

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Curiosity killed ...: There is a gulf between a day trip and immersing yourself for a longer stay.

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Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I' cannot judge on such short acquaintance of course, but the impression keeps coming to mind - I've been thinking about the day all the time, except for tap time yesterday - that they insulate themselves with a sort of soundabsorbing layr.

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Originally posted by SusanDoris:

I cannot judge on such short acquaintance of course, but the impression keeps coming to mind - I've been thinking about the day all the time, except for tap time yesterday - that they insulate themselves with a sort of soundabsorbing layer.

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In my busier days I would have loved the thought of such a life!


 

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Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 

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Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I've been thinking about the day all the time, except for tap time yesterday - that they insulate themselves with a sort of soundabsorbing layer.

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I suspect their perspective is that those not in that space are cut off from the real centre of things, not by a layer of the sisters' making, but by just such a layer weaved by those outside, out of all life's trivia.

[corrected attribution]

[ 19. February 2016, 12:53: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
 

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Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :
 
@Eutychus - you bodged the code there, your quote was originally from Susan I think. Just for info.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
If I was patronising towards SusanDoris, I apologise.



I don't at all doubt Susan's sincerity or the genuineness and integrity of her quest.

Like others here, I simply wondered whether she was asking the right questions in the right context. A monastic open-day thing is very different to the Ship.
 

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Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 

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SusanDoris: I've been thinking about the day all the time, except for tap time yesterday - that they insulate themselves with a sort of soundabsorbing layr.

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Originally posted by Frankenstein:
A religious order is a group of people who have opted to live in community.
They eat and pray together.
It is a vocation.
As in many such orders, hospitality is an essential feature.
Enjoy the hospitality in the spirit is was give!

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Ok - it seems a shame that your intention in going was not fulfilled, and that your 'instructions' or requests seem to have gone awry so nobody was 'geared up' to deal with your enquiries as it were ...

But I'm a tad puzzled by the following ...

I find myself wondering what sort of responses you were expecting.

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The vicar may have been flummoxed because he's not used to dealing with atheists in that particular context. After all, there'd be a reasonable expectation that most people who go to spend a day with a religious order are religious themselves in some way.

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I'll be honest ... I'm not really sure what you've told us here.

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:
just an observation: you make a lot of assumptions about what is/ is not nonormal in the life & work of clergy people-- which is OK, all of us will from time to time speculate about other people's lives that we know nothing about.

But I doubt very much that he was at all surprised or " flummoxed" by your questions. And I would be willing to bet cash money that you were not the first person by a long shot who had ever asked him about prayer.

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Originally posted by Angloid:
I am sure that this religious order is quite used to giving hospitality, and does so quite well in a conventional manner. But hospitality extends further than that, and it is a shame that as seems apparent they felt out of their depth with a professed atheist. I felt for Susan Doris that her obviously genuine interest was ignored, ,...

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Originally posted by Raptor Eye: Perhaps how she was received might depend upon whether it was set up to be a day retreat, shared with others, or a question and answer session from an atheist to those who had taken vows and were living in a religious order?

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Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
No, it was not to have a discussion about atheism, but I had hoped that someone would mention, if only briefly, why or how she had chosen this way of life. But one can never tell how such plans will work out. ,

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In my experience with monastics, many are quite cautious in sharing their own journey.

I suspect that as a first time visitor, they might not have felt comfortable that a certain level of trust has been established before they share that information with you.

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Yes, and maybe they are much more accustomed to people visiting regularly.

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Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Anglican_BratI suspect that as a first time visitor, they might not have felt comfortable that a certain level of trust has been established before they share that information with you.

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A good point, particularly so if a blog and the Ship were mentioned. Not everybody wants their faith testimony broadcast.

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Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Sometimes questions aren't answered because they really can't be answered as asked, or not without relaxed time to consider how to answer.

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Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
I wonder how fruitful it is for an atheist and a religious person to discuss about a vocation such as monastic life. Because ultimately for many religious (in the monastic sense), the reason for one's vocation is a call from God, a concept that an atheist a priori rejects.

Monastic community life is not easy, far from it. It means not just renouncing property and the possibility of married life, it means living in community for the rest of one's life. Monastic community is also about renouncing your choice in deciding who to live with. If you enter an order, you are stuck with whoever is there, and they might not be to your liking.

In terms of vocation, the best reason given for joining a monastic life is that one feels a call from God. Perhaps one reason, SusanDoris, why you didn't receive much counsel on your question is that the people you encountered probably wondered how fruitful a conversation would be. How would an atheist respond to the answer, "God called me to this life" without dismissing it as delusional or mistaken?

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Originally posted by Golden Key:
Susan--

Sorry it wasn't what you'd hoped. There are lots of books by and about people in religious orders, both non-fiction and fiction.

I'll have to think a bit about a non-fiction book. But there's a novel that several Shipmates have loved: "In This House Of Brede", by Rumer Godden. It's about a British civil service executive who sort of stumbles into entering a cloistered convent. (Anglican version of Benedictines, IIRC.) None of the characters are plaster saints. (Do people use that phrase in the UK?) They've got pretty much the same stuff to work out in their lives as everyone else does, within the convent's framework.

Actually, you might also try Thomas Merton's non-fiction works. He was a Trappist monk, here in the US. Wonderful writer. IIRC, "The Seven-Story Mountain" is the one about becoming a monk. I was fond of "New Seeds Of Contemplation".

If you want to look at non-Christian monasteries and communities, you might try Jack Kornfield's "A Path With Heart". He's Buddhist, and was an Asian forest monastery for some time, and moved through other stages--family, teacher, etc. Some of his monastic experiences are in the book.

FWIW. YMMV.

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Is that the smell of lightly grilled straw man I can detect? Or does anybody actually say this? I suppose it adds up if you collapse ideas about survival and propagation in life, together with cultural activity. Thus, Mozart's symphonies address the penis and the clitoris really. Hmm.

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The spiritual direction of evolution is an interesting idea - I suppose the idea is that humans can think and imagine and so on, whereas the lesser spotted lungfish is deficient here. A direction though? I don't think we can infer that.

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Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I suppose in a way I was expecting those who live a religious life, in whatever form, would be like SofF members - interested in discussing, communicating and sharing their views;

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99% of Christians to whom I suggest Ship of Fools have zero interest in a discussion group about religion or Christianity (or whatever the Ship is). They are busy doing life, or relaxing by doing something fun (sports, tv, art, play with the kids). They aren't in discussion groups on other topics either. Social groups for superficial chit chat yes, but that's quite different.

"Ongoing discussions about what is the nature of Christianity? You really are weird!"

You may have had bad luck of the one person in the place who enjoys that sort of thing was sick. Maybe contact her again?
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Belle has a good point. We are a pretty weird breed. Even among religious folk, dissecting theology is high level nerdania.
 

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Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Belle has a good point. We are a pretty weird breed. Even among religious folk, dissecting theology is high level nerdania.

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Indeed. Last week we had a big family meal, and my youngest son got into a heavy math-lete- type discussion with son-in-law about some intricate something having to do with higher mathematics/ calculus, etc. It was well, well over my head, but they were having a passionate discussion. At a certain point I turned to daughter unit and asked "is this what dad and I sound like when we discuss theology?". Answer: "pretty much."
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Yep. And I'll be honest, I am not a theological "mathlete" myself-- if one of my atheist friends came at me hard and fast, I'd eventually start saying, "This is getting kind of circular-- woudn't you rather help me make these paper airplanes for the kids?"

My affection for St. Martha and the name of the cloister suddenly unite for me.
 

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Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :
 
The Monastery BBC show, 2005, in on Youtube (in USA anyway) here

There was another one I think called The Abbey, where half a dozen women stay in a convent for a month. I have always have trouble finding it, so I don't know if that one is still on line somewhere.
 

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Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :
 
My computer has a peculiar glitch which means it comes up with odd symbols instead of punctuation marks. I'll try and find them but might not succeed with all.

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Originally posted by mr cheesy:
SusanDoris, I'm sorry you didn't find the answers you were looking for, maybe you could try writing to them. You might find that they are better able to address your questions after some thought.

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The monastic will have different motivations, abilities and personalities. Merely choosing to contemplate and mediate does not grant one any abilities.
If you should decide to attempt something like this in future, perhaps a written summation of what you would wish to discuss and why. Perhaps then you will be directed to a person or persons who could properly address your curiosity.

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Originally posted by anteater:
SusanDoris:
If I hadn't met you I would have suspected you of being a reluctant atheist, a bit like I'm a reluctant protestant. Maybe you are, but you come across as sufficiently at ease with your views and life in general, so I'm not at all sure.

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I can definitely assure you that there is no reluctance in my atheism

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It can still be interesting trying to understand. But I wouldn't dive in at the deep end, since IMO you can only have productive discussions with people whose viewpoint is not a million miles from yours.

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So if you were to ask me, I would only want to talk about whether materialism is a good explanation of the world as we see it and our own experiences of consciousness. Now if someone is quite happy with the worldview of Daniel Dennett, we can get no further. But if the denial of the "reality" of human consciousness and the seeming spiritual direction of evolution ...

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But this area of debate is jolly hard work.

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Definitely agree there!

Re: a further visit. Quite an interesting idea, but I think it is unlikely.
Re: listening. My impression was more that they may have heard but were not listening.

Curiosity Killed
Thank you for the information. I wonder if you could say more about your retreat? Was there much communication between those attending? Did you find you were, in a way, isolated ... on purpose, I mean ... in your own thoughts?

Barnabas62
Thank you for the info re the TV series. No, I did not see it, but there were a few Radio4 talks I remem ber. At that time, I had not thought of a question such as, what are the benefits of monastic orders?

Jacobsen
I didn’t actually read that book, but did read others by Karen Armstrong. I remember listening to some Radio4 programmes too. I was always sorry that she seemed to avoid the yes/no answer as to whether she still believed in god.
As an atheist of course, I lack any belief in any God/god, so there is no reason to pray to it.

This has been an excellent day – reading, thinking and responding as well as I can to the thoughts here. I will be back tomorrow to continue. 
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I think the question about the actual benefit to others is a very interesting one ... and it might account for why they were apparently cagey about giving you a straight answer on that one ...

But that might be doing them a disservice ...



I remember seeing a TV interview with an RC abbot once who give the 'reason' for monasticism being important as it's very 'uselessness' in pragmatic, practical terms in a society obsessed with pragmatism and utility ...

It's very 'uselessness' was what made it useful.

An interesting take, I thought, although it wouldn't wash, of course, if anyone were to assess it in pragmatic terms.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
So there could be an 'arts for arts sake' rationality behind some of this ...

FWIW, and for my own part, I don't have a difficulty with monasticism nor do I feel the need to question its utility or relevance ...

I'd quite like to go on a monastic retreat at some point.

Of course, as I've already 'bought into' the faith aspects then this isn't a big leap or big issue for me as it would be for someone approaching it from a non-theist perspective - and I can certainly understand questions and objections that atheists, agnostics and Christians who come from traditions that make no provision for the monastic in a formal sense might have or the issues they might raise.
 

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Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 

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Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
The Monastery BBC show, 2005, in on Youtube (in USA anyway) here

There was another one I think called The Abbey, where half a dozen women stay in a convent for a month. I have always have trouble finding it, so I don't know if that one is still on line somewhere.

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• different aspects of Christianity,
• prayer,
• the future of a parish,
• team building with a group of others from the same church,
• not in my experience, but I know ministers who have all spent time on retreat before ordination or taking on a role.

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But no aspect of human evolution has direction, has it.

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Originally posted by crunt:
Buddhism was also mentioned. I think this is an excellent idea for the OPer - and everyone, I suppose - especially the Buddhist suggestion. Buddhism has supernatural accretions attached to it, but is basically non-theist in its philosophy.

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Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
Nobody else has said this so I'll dive in: they might actually have some fatigue in dealing with being challenged. I've been all over the place faithwise, and went from being an atheist in my upbringing, to a fairly devout Christian, to someone who has become disillusioned and disconnected from faith for various reasons. When I first became a Christian certain individuals around me wanted to challenge me all the time. And faith is a peculiarly difficult human experience to justify. Nobody believes in God because they've been argued into it. They believe because it fits with their experience in some way. It is difficult and personal and wibbly wobbly faithy waithy. And it may be that these people have never been challenged by an atheist, or never thought about it, but in this day and age, for people as committed to faith as they are? It seems unlikely. I think it's mostly happened in some form every day for years. It's your mum or dad or Ricky Gervais or the opinion piece in the newspaper.

It's somebody getting up in your face and saying "But why do you love your husband? He seems like a monster to me.

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…] If he even exists. How do you know he does? HA! Oh and now that we've established my views on the matter, part II: tell me about your most intimate and vulnerable moments with him." If you go to a person of near infinite patience and politeness, and talk to them like that, the chances are they're going to be polite and patient and get away from you as quickly as possible because they've learned there's no point. In the meantime, you can go away with the smug satisfaction of thinking he has no answers and can't handle that he's wrong.

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While the image of Christians in the media is of people who want to talk about Jesus all the time and share their faith whether you want to hear it or not, that is a particular subset. It's probably the more extroverted, people oriented, life and soul of the party type of Christian who wants to do this. People who join monastic orders? Not so many of them fit into this profile. They may be committed to faith, but they committed to a life of quiet contemplation rather than a life of loud argument. Are those of us who say "Nope, not doing this AGAIN!" failing to rise up to an evangelistic opportunity? Possibly, but like I said, people aren't argued into faith. Some people have experiences that bring faith to them and others don't. A particular brain circuit lights up, perhaps. But argument doesn't make it happen.

Going by your post history here, Susan, it seems likely to me that your basic premise was probably something along the lines of "I think God doesn't exist and Christianity is wrong and deluded and probably bad for the world. Explain to me why I'm wrong." Someone invites you into their house, and your response is to try and tear into their most cherished beliefs, their relationship with someone they love more than any other? What do you think they'll feel? Angry? Threatened? Insulted? Suddenly enlightened that the whole basis of their belief is a sham? My best guess is: tired. It is tiring. And like all tiring things, some people love doing it.

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There are the Christian version of ultra marathon runners, prepared to argue forever. It's a particular vocation within Christianity, but not everyone has it just because they're Christian. When you're in someone's house,
it's better to respect that.

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Originally posted by Jack o' the Green:

quote:

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Originally posted by crunt:
Buddhism was also mentioned. I think this is an excellent idea for the OPer - and everyone, I suppose - especially the Buddhist suggestion. Buddhism has supernatural accretions attached to it, but is basically non-theist in its philosophy.

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Obviously, Buddhism varies according to school and practitioner, but generally speaking, while it is certainly non-theist, it is every bit 'supernatural' i.e. not capable of being explained in purely naturalistic categories as any theistic faith.

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Originally posted by Laurelin:

Susan, I've been to lots of retreat centres, run by Christians of different stripes, including Catholic and Anglican monastics. The atmosphere of a retreat house is very calm, peaceful ... and non-combative. I wouldn't expect (or want) the same kind of atmosphere that exists on a forum like this, where the discussions are high octane and fairly combative. I'm not saying that the opportunity for that wouldn't exist in the context of a retreat house. But when I go to a retreat centre, it's to get some peace, calm and quiet, not to engage in intense discussions about the existence of God. It's an introverted, contemplative form of spirituality. Heaven for an introvert like me. That might (or might not) explain what you perceived as the insulation of a 'soundabsorbing layer'.

I echo Barnabas's recommendation of 'The Monastery' - excellent and enlightening series. And its sister programme, 'The Convent' - a small group of women, most of whom had no religious faith, stayed with some nuns. The encounters were lively and thought-provoking.

I've not met many nuns but the ones I have met were very down-to-earth people, with a lot of wisdom and life experience.

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Thank you - that is interesting. I think it is unlikely that I shall venture further at my age , but will certainly take a look at those programmes (on the computer). I have in fact watched about a quarter of the men at the monastery one.

[code corrected]

[ 20. February 2016, 10:36: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
 

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Posted by Frankenstein (# 16198) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I think the question about the actual benefit to others is a very interesting one ... and it might account for why they were apparently cagey about giving you a straight answer on that one ...

But that might be doing them a disservice ...



I remember seeing a TV interview with an RC abbot once who give the 'reason' for monasticism being important as it's very 'uselessness' in pragmatic, practical terms in a society obsessed with pragmatism and utility ...

It's very 'uselessness' was what made it useful.

An interesting take, I thought, although it wouldn't wash, of course, if anyone were to assess it in pragmatic terms.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I think the question about the actual benefit to others is a very interesting one ... and it might account for why they were apparently cagey about giving you a straight answer on that one ...

But that might be doing them a disservice ...



I remember seeing a TV interview with an RC abbot once who give the 'reason' for monasticism being important as it's very 'uselessness' in pragmatic, practical terms in a society obsessed with pragmatism and utility ...

It's very 'uselessness' was what made it useful.

An interesting take, I thought, although it wouldn't wash, of course, if anyone were to assess it in pragmatic terms.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:

---

Originally posted by SusanDoris:

I cannot judge on such short acquaintance of course, but the impression keeps coming to mind - I've been thinking about the day all the time, except for tap time yesterday - that they insulate themselves with a sort of soundabsorbing layer.

---

In my busier days I would have loved the thought of such a life!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
If I was patronising towards SusanDoris, I apologise.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sabine:
I would think that living in religious community fosters the kind of interior life that is not easily communicated to an observer on the first meeting.
*****
If you are still interested in what the Sisters of Bethany have to say to the questions you have, scheduling another visit might help.

sabine

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
99% of Christians to whom I suggest Ship of Fools have zero interest in a discussion group about religion or Christianity (or whatever the Ship is).
****
"Ongoing discussions about what is the nature of Christianity? You really are weird!"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Belle has a good point. We are a pretty weird breed. Even among religious folk, dissecting theology is high level nerdania.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
The Monastery BBC show, 2005, in on Youtube (in USA anyway) here

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Retreats - several, only one that lasted a week.

The whole point of a retreat is to be set apart from the daily stresses of life to allow you to think about other issues - to give you space to listen to the still small voice of God. In my experience that's been to explore:

• different aspects of Christianity,
• prayer,
• the future of a parish,
• team building with a group of others from the same church,
• not in my experience, but I know ministers who have all spent time on retreat before ordination or taking on a role.

They all had a structure of services - Morning Prayer / Matins, some had a mid morning communion, shared midday meal with grace (or picnic), shared evening meal with grace, evening and maybe night prayer. When the group has been there to understand something there were talks in the morning, with afternoons free or to go and try out ideas based on the morning's talk, or to pray together as a group and come to a consensus, or just to walk the island, explore the area - it depended on the purpose of the retreat.

Yes, retreats are to answer questions, but within yourself or the group you are with, not externally.

Open days are different - an opening up to show what is there and those
on duty are willing to talk.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by crunt:
Someone else mentioned up-thread that the OPer might consider visiting other, non-Christian, retreats. Buddhism was also mentioned. I think this is an excellent idea for the OPer - and everyone, I suppose - especially the Buddhist suggestion. Buddhism has supernatural accretions attached to it, but is basically non-theist in its philosophy. A person with no religious faith seeking answers to spiritual questions might benefit from a guided inward tour, before asking about other people's perceptions of this unbelieved in god.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by anteater:
SusanDoris:

quote:

---

But no aspect of human evolution has direction, has it.

---

Well it would probably fall into DH territory to debate this. The point I was trying to make is, that if an atheist wishes to engage with me on why I am a believer (of sorts) I would not start at a point which makes no sense to argue unless the existence of God was already agreed. So I wouldn't start with things like prayer or eternal life or anything like that which makes no sense so long as someone is committed to the view that only beliefs that can generate scientifically testable hypotheses are worth entertaining. Which I suppose is where you are coming from.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Japes:
The clergy man who seemed flummoxed by the questions may have been there for retreat himself and therefore not obliged to answer questions from other guests.

---

They said that he is one of several local priests who help with taking the daily services.
It was his choice to come and talk to me!
 

---

Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :
 
I hope I have not accidentally missed something - please let me know if I have!

I think I'll go and listen to a bit more of 'The Mitford Girls' by Mary S Lovell now. The Moseley pre-war period was such a dreadful one, wasn't it.

[ 20. February 2016, 13:20: Message edited by: SusanDoris ]
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
@Frankenstein and Miffy ... yes, indeed.

Interestingly, I once saw an online observation by a very 'hot Prot' whom one would have expected to be against monasticism in principle, to the effect that whether his co-religionists liked it or not, the fact remained that almost anything of any significance that happened in Christianity from around the 5th to the 16th centuries - including the Protestant Reformation* - happened with some kind of input from the monasteries.

*Luther being an Augustinian monk, of course.

Of course, as Frankenstein observes, now that health care, hospitality for travellers, education and so on is now carried out through other agencies, then the role of the monasteries and convents has had to change ...

I enjoyed both the BBC 'monastery' and 'convent' series but for a while back in the late '90s/early 2000s, I was concerned that monasteries might reinvent themselves as some kind of yuppy-haven for stressed execs ...

I think that would be a legitimate role, but I'd hate to see 'This retreat is brought to you by PricewaterhouseCoopers' ...



I'd like to look up the books by the Abbot that Mark in Manchester cites, but I seem to remember that he ended up leaving the monastery after some tensions with the monks ... perhaps because they thought he was commercialising things ... I dunno.

Mind you, back in the day of course, monasteries were not averse to pinching one another's relics and so on in order to attract more pilgrims and more revenue ...

There's always going to be a tension between the simple monastic life and the need to pay the bills and keep the cloister roof over your head ...

I've always been struck by the irony that much of Glasgow's substantial drink problem revolves around Buckfast Abbey produce ... the notorious 'Buckie' ...

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckfast_Tonic_Wine

Which doesn't stop me imbibing an occasional bottle of Belgian Trappist ale ...

So perhaps this resolves the conundrum of what monastic communities are 'for' ...

They can provide peaceful locations for retreat and contemplation, they can produce jars of artisan honey, they can produce deadly beverages to get you pissed ...



Incidentally, as the TV series have been mentioned, has anyone seen the French feature film, 'Of Gods And Men'?

Marvellous film. All about those French monks who were abducted and killed by jihadist militants during the Algerian civil war of the 1990s.

It won the Grand-Prix at Cannes in 2010.

If you haven't seen it, do so. It's a real gem.
 

---

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by SusanDoris:
With a multitude of problems and worries to solve when I was in my twenties a, and having already come to the conclusion that, although there was
God/force/power somewhere, it did absolutely nothing, I relied on my own inner strength and my mind to get through. I think I can honestly say that I have never sought a spiritual answer, since I knew I could cope on my own. Support of friends helped of course.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SusanDoris:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
The Monastery BBC show, 2005, in on Youtube (in USA anyway) here

---

Thank you . I am able to watch and listen on the computer and have seen about a quarter of that link so far.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Raptor Eye:

quote:

---

Originally posted by SusanDoris:
With a multitude of problems and worries to solve when I was in my twenties a, and having already come to the conclusion that, although there was
God/force/power somewhere, it did absolutely nothing, I relied on my own inner strength and my mind to get through. I think I can honestly say that I have never sought a spiritual answer, since I knew I could cope on my own. Support of friends helped of course.

---

If you have continued to think of God as a genie who is supposed to be on call through prayer by those who cannot cope, it is no wonder you reject the whole concept of God and prayer.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I am going to admit I am going through a similar period of spiritual futility ( still believe in God, don't believe God gives a shit about me), and if I tried to be honest to someone about my struggles and recieved the above response, it might be just enough to tilt the balance toward, "Fuck it."

I don't expect God to be a genie that gives me a smooth ride through life, but yeah, since I am a Christian, I have been taught the third person of the trinity is called The Comforter, and when I pray for help and even that inner peace evades me, it is easy to feel like I have been abandoned.

The next step in this dance is someone telling me, " what have you done to distance yourself from God, then?" Right?

Please don't read this as a pitch for All Saintsy support, I am really concerned about how we, as Christians ( even half assed Christians such as myself) approach people who are in that space. The above response strikes me as catastrophically insufficient.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SusanDoris:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Japes:
The clergy man who seemed flummoxed by the questions may have been there for retreat himself and therefore not obliged to answer questions from other guests.

---

They said that he is one of several local priests who help with taking the daily services.

It was his choice to come and talk to me!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

I don't expect God to be a genie that gives me a smooth ride through life, but yeah, since I am a Christian, I have been taught the third person of the trinity is called The Comforter, and when I pray for help and even that inner peace evades me, it is easy to feel like I have been abandoned.

The next step in this dance is someone telling me, " what have you done to distance yourself from God, then?" Right?

Please don't read this as a pitch for All Saintsy support, I am really concerned about how we, as Christians ( even half assed Christians such as myself) approach people who are in that space. The above response strikes me as catastrophically insufficient.

---

Not trying to do All Saints here, but this spiritual futility/no-peace thing is a known stage of the Christian life. A very nasty one.

IMHO anyone who doesn't recognize that and says instead "what have you done to bring this on" or similar is simply making it clear to the world in general that they are too immature to have experience it themselves.


Like two-year-olds giving teenagers advice on their love lives.
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Raptor Eye:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I am going to admit I am going through a similar period of spiritual futility ( still believe in God, don't believe God gives a shit about me), and if I tried to be honest to someone about my struggles and recieved the above response, it might be just enough to tilt the balance toward, "Fuck it."

I don't expect God to be a genie that gives me a smooth ride through life, but yeah, since I am a Christian, I have been taught the third person of the trinity is called The Comforter, and when I pray for help and even that inner peace evades me, it is easy to feel like I have been abandoned.

The next step in this dance is someone telling me, " what have you done to distance yourself from God, then?" Right?

Please don't read this as a pitch for All Saintsy support, I am really concerned about how we, as Christians ( even half assed Christians such as myself) approach people who are in that space. The above response strikes me as catastrophically insufficient.

---

Thank you for your challenge to my challenge, KA.

No, I wouldn't have followed it with 'what have you done ....' I was addressing SusanDoris who is a confirmed atheist, and if this was and still is who she thinks God is, I'm not surprised. It strikes me that our own image of who God is and what prayer is supposed to do is what so often stands in the way of faith, particularly when it doesn't work the way we expect it to and we become disappointed and disillusioned.

I would be interested to hear what you think I might have said, instead. I can't and shouldn't promise anything from God, other than that we are all loved, that it is worthwhile speaking to God in prayer, in trust that we will be held through the hard times, (even though we sometimes feel abandoned), we will sometimes be knowingly blessed, and it will be a rough ride.

---

quote:

---

I don't expect God to be a genie that gives me a smooth ride through life, but yeah, since I am a Christian, I have been taught the third person of the trinity is called The Comforter, and when I pray for help and even that inner peace evades me, it is easy to feel like I have been abandoned.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
If you have continued to think of God as a genie who is supposed to be on call through prayer by those who cannot cope, it is no wonder you reject the whole concept of God and prayer.[//QB]

---

quote:

---

[QB]Spiritual seeking is facilitated within a retreat, as is spiritual refreshment. I would have hoped that the facilitators of the retreat may have been ready to speak to you about their concepts of prayer and of God.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I am going to admit I am going through a similar period of spiritual futility ( still believe in God, don't believe God gives a shit about me), and if I tried to be honest to someone about my struggles and recieved the above response, it might be just enough to tilt the balance toward, "Fuck it."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SusanDoris:
There are times, aren't there, when you'd really like to lodge a very strong complaint against that part of the evolutionary process which provides us with an unexchangeable set of genes with which we have to face all life's circumstances. That sounds a bit flippant, but it's not at all meant that way.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SusanDoris:
The big difference being that the husband would be material, not an idea.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
Normally I consider the "but God is real to this person" as a cop-out, as I'm sure you do. This is one situation in which it is important. God is real to this person. This person loves God more than anything, more than they'd love their husband if they had one. You can say that they're loving an imaginary friend. That's fine. The friend doesn't actually have to be real for the love, the commitment and the loyalty to be real. My point is that when someone interrogates you about love, it doesn't come across well. When someone has an intense, intimate relationship with a spouse, or God, or a particularly beautiful pet rock, it is an expression of entitlement to assume they owe you an explanation for that.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
Normally I consider the "but God is real to this person" as a cop-out, as I'm sure you do. This is one situation in which it is important. God is real to this person. This person loves God more than anything, more than they'd love their husband if they had one. You can say that they're loving an imaginary friend. That's fine. The friend doesn't actually have to be real for the love, the commitment and the loyalty to be real. My point is that when someone interrogates you about love, it doesn't come across well. When someone has an intense, intimate relationship with a spouse, or God, or a particularly beautiful pet rock, it is an expression of entitlement to assume they owe you an explanation for that.

---

You use the word 'interrogate' rather strongly here.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
I think there are also assumptions being made here about the churchmanship of people who go on retreats. In my experience, those who choose retreats tend to be quieter, introverted Christians, who like silence - because that's what a retreat is all about.

If I am on retreat I've paid for silence and time apart to pray, maybe about a specific issue, maybe just to re-centre myself. I am really not looking for lots of chat and discussion. I would quietly find somewhere else to be away from anyone who was too chatty.

---

quote:

---

The main requirement for a Julian Meeting is that there should be a substantial period of silence. The most usual length is 30 minutes. It should not be less than 20 minutes and can be as long as the meeting decides. This is not interrupted in any way

---

quote:

---

Kelly Alves: SusanDoris really hasn't said much about the content of her discussions with the Sisters, if you go back and read the posts, but people seem to be deciding in their heads what the discussions must have been like and assessing the situation from there.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:
As far as I can see, this thread is about Susan saying that a certain vicar was flummoxed by a conversation they didn't have. And saying anything more about it is unwise speculation.

Interesting thread.

---

I never said you had to agree with me, the "unwise" bit was my opinion.
 

---

Posted by Liopleurodon (# 4836) on :
 
I may perhaps have got the wrong end of the stick, in which case I apologise. Susan has a particular kind of posting history on SoF. I must admit that I assumed a rather combative tone based on that, and on the "nothing to say to an atheist" thing.
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
I totally agree she made a few assumptions of her own.
 

---

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :
 
Here is the thread which SusanDoris started as she wanted to challenge the place of religious orders in today's society. This gives some background.
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Thanks, that does help.
 

---

Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :
 
Apologies for not posting yesterday - I'd been listening to the videos, felt a bit odd so spent the rest of the day being checked over! All wel.
I've read new posts quickly and will be back later.
 

---

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :
 
What I can’t rationally see the point of is human life at all.

They are two areas which indicate what it may be and both are areas the religious life witnesses to. Neither can be presented as a logical argument.

One is caring and being cared for by other humans as of infinite respect, without necessarily the complications of sexual involvement.

The other is silent prayer. When I am silent before God for a period, not trying to think or feel anything, then I know I, and all other humans, are of value just for being, not for doing or owning.
 

---

Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :
 
Having re-read new Posts, I think I’ll respond in a general way with just the one quote.
Liopleurodon
Thank you for your very interesting post. I particularly liked:

quote:

---

The denizens of SoF are, as others have noted, a particularly argumentative bunch…

---

which is, of course, what makes reading here such a rewarding pursuit!
***
In a way, this topic was not so much intended as a discussion, although the views expressed have been most interesting, but ssimply a follow-up sort of report on what I said I would do in order to further, if only minimally, my knowledge of religious orders. I see that I should have made it clearer that the amount of time I had to talk to a few individuals was in fact very brief and there was certainly not time to interrogate anyone. I can say with total honesty that my aim is never to score points off people in a hurtful way. I’ve had that done to me and have tried never to do it to others. On a message board like this, I assume others like to hear contrary views to challenge.
I have watched the videos (although I did fast forward for several minutes here and there and am pleased I have done so. I’ve been trying to think of comments, but so far have not come up with anything constructive or useful - apologies! .
 

---

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 

quote:

---

SusanDoris: In a way, this topic was not so much intended as a discussion

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:

---

SusanDoris: In a way, this topic was not so much intended as a discussion

---

It does feel like a cop-out and disrespectful towards other people when you post in Purgatory, being rather argumentative at points, criticizing people who received you hospitably, and then say "it wasn't intended as a discussion".

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I obviously misjudged the situation.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Qoheleth.:
As someone who knows the Sisters a little, I think SusanDoris nails here it herself.

There is much wisdom about monastic and religious life upthread, so I have nothing to add, save that SusanDoris may wish to consider apologising for her mistaken assumptions.

Q.

---

To whom do you think I should apologise? I was friendly and polite to all I met there and wrote a letter the following day to thank them very much for having me there, so am not quite sure what you mean.
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
If I delivered possibly misleading negative information about a group to people, I would consider apologizing to those people for giving them possibly misleading information. It just seems to serve the interests of fairness.I think that is the suggestion. Only a suggestion.
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Hmmm ... Unless I'm missing something, I don't see what SusanDoris has to apologise for ...

All she's done is discuss her visit to the convent community with us here on this Board. It's not as if she's posted things on Facebook or Twitter slagging them off or if she's come on here bad-mouthing them ... as she says, she thanked them for their hospitality and sent a note of thanks after her stay.

Why would she have to apologise to them for things she may have said here? It's not as if any of the posters here appear to have been 'swayed' in some way by her observations or perceptions ...

'Those bloody Sisters of Bethany, I was going to leave all my money to them in my will ... but I've decided not to now ... SusanDoris has convinced me otherwise. In fact, I'm so annoyed at the kind of reception that SusanDoris received that I'm going to go round there now and pour petrol through their letter box and set the place on fire ...'



The most SusanDoris could be accused of is getting the wrong end of the stick with some of the things that go on in retreat centres and so on ... but I doubt it'll be the first time anyone's done that - nor will it be the last.

I can see why some Shippies find SusanDoris's posting style a bit caustic at times ... but again, that's not unusual here aboard Ship either.
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
But if I've stepped out of line, I apologise ...
 

---

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
If I delivered possibly misleading negative information about a group to people, I would consider apologizing to those people for giving them possibly misleading information. It just seems to serve the interests of fairness.I think that is the suggestion. Only a suggestion.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
'Those bloody Sisters of Bethany, I was going to leave all my money to them in my will ... but I've decided not to now ... SusanDoris has convinced me otherwise. In fact, I'm so annoyed at the kind of reception that SusanDoris received that I'm going to go round there now and pour petrol through their letter box and set the place on fire ...'

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Well I don't think you are in any sense obligated to send them your thoughts recorded here, on a blog, as tweets or anywhere else, Susan.

I think that's a pretty strange request given that they've clearly not met your expectations for a visit. Given that they expected you come as an observer, it seems a bit unreasonable for them to insist on seeing your observations.

Personally I'd just ignore the request and move on.

---

From their pov, I don't see how they would "clearly" not have met Susan's expectations. Sure, in retrospect as we read this thread, it's quite clear, but unless Susan was inordinately rude during her visit (and there's no indication she was) they wouldn't know how far short they fell. I imagine they were doing their best to meet her needs, although they may have sensed at times her disappointment or frustration.

Which may be precisely why they want to read the post. They want to know where they stand, how they are appearing to outsiders and to Susan in particular. They are expecting an honesty here that courtesy may have prevented them from getting in the moment-- and boy, will they get it.


I would agree that Susan is under no obligation, legal or otherwise, to send her the info. With a bit of effort they should be able to find the thread and read it for themselves. But I think it would kind to send them the link and/or text of the OP for their info. It could be prefaced however she wishes, perhaps something like, "this may appear a bit harsh-- on the Ship we tend toward honest, sometimes brutal speaking. I do appreciate the hospitality I was given, but was disappointed we couldn't spend more time discussing some questions..."

But that's entirely up to her. There's nothing wrong with the sisters for making the request, but there's no obligation to oblige.

[ 26. February 2016, 13:30: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
 

---

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :
 
At 2015 there were 8 remaining Sisters of Bethany and they are unlikely to get any further novices.

They are in a very vulnerable situation and bravely trying to continue a viable ministry (through Facebook and Twitter among other things.)

I don't know whether they asked for Susan's feedback for reassurance (which they must badly need) or to courageously face criticism.

Susan's idea of phoning them up is both gracious and kind.

The golden rule is never to post anything on the internet you don't want anyone to see.
 

---

Posted by BroJames (# 9636) on :
 
If they really want to know what you have said, the Ship like the internet at large is, as the saying goes, permanent and public. So it will be easy enough for them to access it if they are interested. It's easy for any of us to lose that focus in the context of an online discussion. We may say things which we would not say to someone's face, or which we might say to their face, but would rather they heard it from us first than found it online.

Perhaps if you take some time to review what you have said, and then, as you suggest have a person to person conversation with the sister you are in touch with. You can explain to her what was different from your expectations, and that you posted about it, and that

quote:

---

Looking back at the OP here, [you] see that it could be seen by the nuns as an unfair comment, not uncritical appreciation, and [you] certainly would not wish to appear to be rude to them in anyway

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by cliffdweller:
From their pov, I don't see how they would "clearly" not have met Susan's expectations. Sure, in retrospect as we read this thread, it's quite clear, but unless Susan was inordinately rude during her visit (and there's no indication she was) they wouldn't know how far short they fell. I imagine they were doing their best to meet her needs, although they may have sensed at times her disappointment or frustration.

---

quote:

---

Which may be precisely why they want to read the post. They want to know where they stand, how they are appearing to outsiders and to Susan in particular. They are expecting an honesty here that courtesy may have prevented them from getting in the moment-- and boy, will they get it.

---

quote:

---

I would agree that Susan is under no obligation, legal or otherwise, to send her the info. With a bit of effort they should be able to find the thread and read it for themselves. But I think it would kind to send them the link and/or text of the OP for their info. It could be prefaced however she wishes, perhaps something like, "this may appear a bit harsh-- on the Ship we tend toward honest, sometimes brutal speaking. I do appreciate the hospitality I was given, but was disappointed we couldn't spend more time discussing some questions..."

---

quote:

---

But that's entirely up to her. There's nothing wrong with the sisters for making the request, but there's no obligation to oblige.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by venbede:
At 2015 there were 8 remaining Sisters of Bethany and they are unlikely to get any further novices.

They are in a very vulnerable situation and bravely trying to continue a viable ministry (through Facebook and Twitter among other things.)

---

quote:

---

I don't know whether they asked for Susan's feedback for reassurance (which they must badly need) or to courageously face criticism.

Susan's idea of phoning them up is both gracious and kind.

---

quote:

---

The golden rule is never to post anything on the internet you don't want anyone to see.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I think you are needlessly framing this in polarizing terms where there has to be a good guy and a bad guy. I don't see either the sisters or Susan that way. Rather, I think you just have two groups (or one small group and one individual) with very different world views and very different expectations/understandings of what a visit would entail.

---

quote:

---

I don't think anyone deliberately set out to disappoint or hurt anyone-- rather, they each took the somewhat courageous step of reaching out/making oneself available for a potentially uncomfortable conversation with the goal of simply increasing understanding.

---

quote:

---

The fact that the result was polite but disappointingly shallow is not surprising under the circumstances. It was a noble effort. No apologies are needed on either side. The sisters are who they are and Susan is who she is. I don't see any reason to blame either for what results that, while disappointing, are certainly not disastrous.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I wonder if it's possible if someone had a wander round SOF, saw the Mystery Worshipper thingy, and thought what SusanDoris was doing was a similar effort with a writeup attached?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I wonder if it's possible if someone had a wander round SOF, saw the Mystery Worshipper thingy, and thought what SusanDoris was doing was a similar effort with a writeup attached?

If not, I think the kindest thing to do (and probably fairest, given the misunderstandings) would be to simply repeat your thanks and fail to give them the link, as if you hadn't noticed the request. Most people are not so bold as to reply saying, "Hey, you got your thank you letter wrong, you forgot to include X in it."

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Yes, I agree - and it may have just been a request made out of polite interest, so soon forgotten.

(Hopefully)

Otherwise - just be honest! We may get some new and interesting Shippies who join from the convent
 

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Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :
 
I think that honesty is the best policy. I would ring and say what you intended to achieve by your visit, why it wasn't achieved, and give them a chance to respond. It's only fair.

They have given you the opportunity to open up your questions again. I am uncertain as to whether they are questions you genuinely seek answers for, or an interrogation to challenge their existence. Did you not indicate that in your view they are an anachronism, according to the prior thread, should not receive any public funding (or tax breaks), and could not justify their existence?

If you have been duplicitous, an apology is in order. If you have been open and honest, none is needed.
 

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Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on :
 
Perhaps I have the wrong end of the stick here but from my reading (please correct/clarify)

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] Susan Doris Then I had an interesting conversation with the Vicar. His knowledge of the Order and Anglicanism was evidently wide and authoritative, but he did not have responses for an atheist. I had taken a printed copy of the OP, at which he glanced but made no direct comment, or even get as far as the second paragraph.

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Posted 13 November, 2015 01:32 AM SusanDoris
Religious orders: their purposes funding and
achievements.

In the topic about theologians *, the subject of monks and nuns occurred briefly. I thought it might be interesting to see what opinions there are here about religious orders, their value, benefits and/or drawbacks to society, how they are funded and their prospects for the future. I am thinking specifically of Christian orders, where those people who freely choose this way of life enrol nowadays, and who choose to set themselves apart** in order to serve God.

As an atheist I think such orders are a very long way past their sell-by date and are slowly but surely becoming an anachronism, but no doubt they will continue for a long time to come. I have googled ‘public funding for religious orders’ and a quick look shows that, for instance, one Dominican group are going to do a sponsored walk to raise £1 million to cover costs of training etc etc. Whether there is any government money allocated to any of these orders, or which ones may have charitable status, I do not know.

I can sort of understand their belief that the prayers they offer up, following a set format have a good effect, but think they are wrong. Well over ten years ago scientists, using Newton’s and later physicists’ knowledge, planned for a journey for a space module carrying a probe to travel for ten years, arrive at a comet and land the probe on said comet. This has happened just as planned. Do members of religious orders think that the God they believe in had any part in such an endeavour, or that their prayers are more useful than such an achievement?


I look forward to learning more about present-day orders and their justification for their place in society.

*i.e. the factthat they know nothing
** this phrase from a google linkabout God!!

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
Being personally invited to something, and then publicly posting that some of the Sisters were sleeping at the end of their silence period (this is just an example;

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Originally posted by Ariel:

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
Being personally invited to something, and then publicly posting that some of the Sisters were sleeping at the end of their silence period (this is just an example;

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What she actually said was: "One person there was most definitely asleep at the end of that!" It doesn't say that the person was a nun - it may have been one of the other visitors - or that there was more than one.

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Gamaliel: As it us, she has hoist herself with her own petard and is now in a dilemma - although she clearly cares about the sisters as individuals and does not wish to offend.

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Gamaliel: This is Purgatory, not the Mystery Worshipper.

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Originally posted by Evangeline:
Is that any less rude than saying one of the sisters was asleep?

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Originally posted by Evangeline:
As has been stated elsewhere, some of us seem to understand that the visit to the Sisters was a little different from going to a public worship service or event.

Would you go to a wedding reception, bowl up to the father of bride and hand him a treatise about how outdated the institution of marriage is and question him about where the money to pay for this wedding came from and whether it was appropriate to be spent in such a way?

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Would you then follow up with a post on a public forum that you attended Joe Bloggs and Mary Smith's wedding and at least one person was asleep at the end of the speeches and the hosts completely failed to answer the concerns you had about the institution of marriage?

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Originally posted by Evangeline:
Is that any less rude than saying one of the sisters was asleep?

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Given SD's visual impairment that she references in this thread, then unless the person was snoring I don't know how SD knew that anybody was asleep much less been able to identify who it was.

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Evangeline: As has been stated elsewhere, some of us seem to understand that the visit to the Sisters was a little different from going to a public worship service or event.

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Originally posted by LeRoc:

I appreciate that Susan may have been unfamiliar with this difference. OTOH, this distinction may be irrelevant to her. After all, they can't scientifically prove the existence of God, so why take their sensitivities into account?

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mr cheesy: If she had no qualms about offending their sensibilities, I don't think she'd be worried about telling them exactly what she thought of them. Just FWIW.

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
LOL, I sometimes have trouble parsing sentences that contain (or imply) triple negatives.

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mr cheesy: OK - she is worried about replying to their request for a print out of her OP here. If she was unconcerned about their sensibilities, why would she be?

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fletcher christian: The OP indicates that she has already made up her mind

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Originally posted by Boogie:
I don't know what the Sisters of Bethany would think of this thread or of Susan Doris's visit and her observations.

But, if it were me, I would be interested to find that anyone was discussing our retreat house! I think I would log in and join the Ship to put my two penneth in.

I doubt if they are wilting flowers who have never met a committed atheist before.

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That would be really interesting, wouldn't it?

[ 27. February 2016, 12:46: Message edited by: SusanDoris ]
 

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Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
The OP starts with:

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Originally posted by SusanDoris: As you may recall, I arranged to spend a day with the Sisters of Bethany in order to find out personally something about religious orders.

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Originally posted by SusanDoris:

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Originally posted by Boogie:
I don't know what the Sisters of Bethany would think of this thread or of Susan Doris's visit and her observations.

But, if it were me, I would be interested to find that anyone was discussing our retreat house! I think I would log in and join the Ship to put my two penneth in.

I doubt if they are wilting flowers who have never met a committed atheist before.

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That would be really interesting, wouldn't it?

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I would not be surprised to learn they have already checked it out. I certainly would if I were them. Not from any sense of defensiveness necessarily but rather because they I'm sure realize it's always helpful to see an honest account of how outsiders see you, even if it cuts close to the bone at times.

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Sort of a mystery anti-worship.
 

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Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
Hmm, having read through some of the posts and having thought about it a bit (a nice day for walks in Milton Keynes!), I do admit that I take the concept of being "personally invited" rather broadly. I guess this is because behaving as a guest is important to me.

Whenever I'm in Rio de Janeiro, I usually stay in a convent that offers relatively cheap accommodation but also invites the people staying to participate in their prayer and community life (guests can decide if and how far they want to go in this). I guess the process of booking yourself in is quite similar.

I wouldn't dream of writing something critical on an open website about certain aspects of this community, at least not without clearing it with my hosts first. This isn't a Holiday Inn.

(Although I am tempted sometimes to tell about the time I played volleyball together with 11 nuns, all in habit. That was hilarious.)
 

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Posted by jacobsen (# 14998) on :
 
I agree with those who feel that, when enquiring into the intimacies of another's spiritual life, a gentle and respectful approach is essential.

(This post replaces a much more acerbic one which would probably have attracted a Hostly thunderbolt.)

[ 27. February 2016, 19:07: Message edited by: jacobsen ]
 

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Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 

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Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Huh - I used to have a friend who had perfected the art of staying perfectly still during sermons and singing with his eyes closed. Many times people thought he was struggling in prayer through some difficult issue.

He was asleep every time. Sometimes audibly snoring.

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Originally posted by Anselmina:
Sleeping during retreats, or any religious convention, prayer concert, spiritual get-together etc, is a well-known and generally acceptable tradition. Surprizing how refreshing it can be!

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Nick Tamen: Just be careful you're not too close to an open window.

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So I was wondering: how should a religious order receive a militant atheist?

My vote is for patient condescension.
 

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Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 

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Originally posted by jacobsen:
Sleep learning - don't some people learn languages that way?

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Originally posted by LeRoc:


So I was wondering: how should a religious order receive a militant atheist?

My vote is for patient condescension.

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Originally posted by Raptor Eye:

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Originally posted by LeRoc:


So I was wondering: how should a religious order receive a militant atheist?

My vote is for patient condescension.

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Patience, yes, but with no more condescension returned than is given out - touché!

I think that sadly we are likely to be ambushed at any time by militant atheists - at least the sisters were pre-warned - and so we should try to be ready to verbalise our faith and give our own pov, in case we manage to get a word in edgewise through the patience.

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Personally, I think the sisters got it right: simply carrying on doing what you do, which in their case appears to be quiet, non-defensive hospitality. Don't let yourself be defined by those who oppose you. [/QB]

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Originally posted by Bibaculus:
If this is a fruitful line, I am happy to continue with it.

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I don't know about others but it sounds fascinating to me. Despite being a life-long church-going Anglican I know very little about monastic life except the stereotypes.

I hope you'll excuse the first one, but I'm struck by your implication that you experienced time pressure. I don't mean to be offensive but that isn't what I'd expected. Can you say more about the time pressures?
 

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Posted by Bibaculus (# 18528) on :
 
mdijon - I think this is pretty common in religious life. Not only is the day pretty regulated, with bells ringing for divine office, meals, etc; and having to get up and go to bed at fixed times, but also with falling and aging numbers (and this must be the case with the Sisters of Bethany, too), most people have multiple jobs. You may think that the sister you are chatting to has nothing to do with her afternoon but walk in the gardens thinking holy thoughts, but she might have all the convent's bed linen to wash, or the meal to cook, or a bedridden sister to go and look after.
 

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Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :
 
This afternoon I have listened through all the posts right from the beginning; much respect, admiration and thanks to all. I hope that the Nun I spoke to today (who I realised on checking the name on the letter was not the one I originally contacted) will be interested to read it too.

Having now also read the Styx thread, I'm sure this will rapidly sink out of sight.
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Susan--

Sounds like a good phone call! I'm glad you were able to sort things out.
 

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Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :
 

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Originally posted by Bibaculus:
mdijon - I think this is pretty common in religious life. Not only is the day pretty regulated, with bells ringing for divine office, meals, etc; and having to get up and go to bed at fixed times, but also with falling and aging numbers (and this must be the case with the Sisters of Bethany, too), most people have multiple jobs. You may think that the sister you are chatting to has nothing to do with her afternoon but walk in the gardens thinking holy thoughts, but she might have all the convent's bed linen to wash, or the meal to cook, or a bedridden sister to go and look after.

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Originally posted by Bibaculus:
... It is important to earn a living. And it is important to keep occupied (the Devil and idle hands and all that)...

But I think the stress on function is false. We should not be defined by what we do, but by who we are.

One of the reasons for the current crisis in religious life IMHO is that monks and nuns have become to fixated on external works, often desperate to keep institutions going at the expense of individual flourishing.

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Originally posted by Bibaculus:
In a way, asking what religious life is for is like asking what marriage is for. It is a state of life to which God calls some people, and not others. It has its stresses and consolations.

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Originally posted by venbede:
What I can’t rationally see the point of is human life at all.

They are two areas which indicate what it may be and both are areas the religious life witnesses to. Neither can be presented as a logical argument.

One is caring and being cared for by other humans as of infinite respect, without necessarily the complications of sexual involvement.

The other is silent prayer. When I am silent before God for a period, not trying to think or feel anything, then I know I, and all other humans, are of value just for being, not for doing or owning.

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
I had a conversation with a monk once who complained about having a lot to do and little time. That was an eye-opener for me.

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
I had a conversation with a monk once who complained about having a lot to do and little time. That was an eye-opener for me.

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Originally posted by que sais-je:
Most old age pensioners say the same. Breakfast and the crossword, suddenly it's time for lunch.

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• observing the monastic offices - so maybe 6 services a day.
• running the religious house - growing food, cooking, cleaning,
• running whatever enterprise that the monastery provides - bread, candles, alcohol, retreats;
• caring for elderly members of the monastery;

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Originally posted by mdijon:

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Originally posted by que sais-je:
Most old age pensioners say the same. Breakfast and the crossword, suddenly it's time for lunch.

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I don't think many monks are in that category though. I'm not sure how helpful it is to rubbish claims with nothing to base that on but cynicism.

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Originally posted by que sais-je:
And if monks/nuns have a similar type of experience of time - and learn to treat it as a blessing - then I think their choice of life was a wise one.

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I think the point is that they don't have a similar experience. They are in fact very busy - i.e. really actively engaged in doing things, rather than just not noticing the time going.

(Apologies for misinterpreting you as being cynical).
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
MonasteryGreetings.com has products from a variety of Christian monastic houses. (Just to give you an idea of ways they support themselves.) I can vouch for the quality of the Brigittine fudge! (Listed in the "Chocolate" section.)

 

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Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
(For the record, I wasn't being cynical either. I was genuinely surprised by how busy monks and nuns can be.)
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
And yes, Virginia, there is such a thing as a Quaker monastery! They look intriguing. Found them while looking up monastery gifts.
 

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Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :
 

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
(For the record, I wasn't being cynical either. I was genuinely surprised by how busy monks and nuns can be.)

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Bibaculus: What is the point of life? It is to prepare us for heaven.

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