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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Are Literal Idols Evil Things?
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
Nowadays we call all kinds of things idols, and I certainly believe that money, power, attractiveness, popularity, etc., are the object of modern day idolatry. However, various non-Abrahamic religions have actual statues and other items that are worshipped or that are believed to be inhabited by a divinity's spirit, to literally be a divinity, or something similar. Some religions object to these objects being called idols, but they bear at least some similarity to the idols that are referred to in the Jewish and Christian Bibles (and the Quran), and that existed in the cultures that Jews, Christians, and Muslims interacted with in antiquity.
I personally think that, even if Christians should not worship idols (and I would like to ask that discussion of statues in churches, icons, and transubstantiation be left to other threads), there is nothing evil about the existence of these idol-like objects in other religions. I am not saying that these religions are equally true compared to Christianity. I do not believe, however, that these idol-like objects are inhabited by demons, or that those religions that worship or venerate them are unknowingly worshipping the Devil.
I am unsure, though, what the traditional, orthodox teaching of Christianity is regarding these idol-like objects (other than that Christians should not take part in any activity that worships them or that appears to be worshipping them). I am not even sure what specific traditions like the RCC, Eastern Orthodoxy, or those parts of Conservative Evangelical Protestantism that tend to agree with each other would teach regarding this (not that I would agree with any of them). What do different people on the Ship think? How is the current situation different from that of Biblical times regarding these objects? Does anyone know of the current teachings of Orthodox Judaism and conservative (but not Salafist) Sunni or Shia Islam regarding these objects?
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Raptor Eye
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# 16649
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Posted
It comes across to me that it was not the objects of wood or stone themselves, but the futility of worshipping them, and the dreadful acts of sacrificing children, temple prostitution and orgies which were so abhorrent to God and destructive to the people.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I don't think that these things are spiritually 'radioactive' in some way - and tend to think that any 'power' they may possess - or even channel if you like - is more down to association than anything intrinsically within the images themselves ... ie I don't believe that they are 'possessed' by evil spirits in any talismanic kind of way ...
However, and it is certainly a 'however', for those of us who may be open to Christian iconography as some kind of conveyor/channel of grace - in a way that the Eucharist is believed to be - or in some kind of 'genius locii' thing going on in certain places ... there is always a possibility, I think, of good or malign influences somehow being associated with or 'channelled' by particular objects, actions and so on ...
But I wouldn't want to create a huge edifice on that idea.
There's the whole philosophical thing about the links between the sign and the signified ... all that Platonic, Neo-Platonic and indeed stuff that takes us into the kind of territory explored by Barth, Sassure, Foucault, Derrida and Structuralist socio-linguistic studies etc ...
In a Christian sense, though, whilst I don't think that sacraments (or ordinances) are 'magic' I do think that these things can and do convey grace.
So it's not a great leap from that to suggesting that some malign images or rituals may do the opposite.
But I'd be very careful about any of that.
I know a vicar's wife who stormed into a secondary school and made a whopping big fuss because her daughter had been asked to make a papier-mache model of a Hindu idol in RE. She accused the RE teacher of not being a Christian, or making a graven image and much else besides ...
From what I can gather, the image was that of a Hindu demon which is ceremonially set alight or set adrift (or both) during religious ceremonies ... so the idea was that good triumphs over evil.
Whilst the vicar - I spoke to him about this - conceded that point he was still uncomfortable about making an image of 'something evil'.
I probed him on his view of Christian iconography and he didn't like that idea either ... he's a hot-Prot low church evangelical vicar.
My eldest daughter was in the same RE class and she wasn't worried in the slightest - nor were we as parents - the only thing that narked us was having to go out and buy the materials ...
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
Objects, by and large, have the power that we invest them with. Swathes (one is given to believe) of fundamentalist parents believe Harry Potter books are evil because they project on to their innocuous (and indeed moral) pages the mish-mash of Holywood-coloured ideas about witchcraft. Former friends once told a minister that the Masonic symbols they had spotted in the stained glass was why his church would Never Thrive. Innumerable ghost/horror stories depend on the premiss of the inherent malignity of objects.
IME the only inanimate things which have impressed me have done so by virtue of the artistry of their creator. I am thinking of some statues I saw in a temple in China - benificient Divine figures - Taoist? Confucian? Buddhist? I'm not sure but to this day I remember the effect of wisdom and serenity they conveyed. Ditto Western art - if you believe in a succouring Virgin or a merciful Christ it as much down to the pictures.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
However, and it is certainly a 'however', for those of us who may be open to Christian iconography as some kind of conveyor/channel of grace - in a way that the Eucharist is believed to be - or in some kind of 'genius locii' thing going on in certain places ... there is always a possibility, I think, of good or malign influences somehow being associated with or 'channelled' by particular objects, actions and so on ...
I may post further on the topic depending on what turn it takes. Just want to point out though that it is possible to take a dim view of icons precisely because one is a protestant with a high view of the Eucharist.
As for making a model of the idol I'd view it either negatively, positively or ambivalently, largely depending on the rest of the context.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
A nuttily conservative friend of my husband assured me that the statue of Dancing Shiva on my mantel is a demonic idol. I told him it is available for sale in tourist shops across India. (He also burned all his D&D manuals out on the barbecue grill; I urged him to buy as many copies of my books as he could and burn them as well.)
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
If God is someone who transcends all of creation - lies outside it, has existed forever, is the source of Truth and Reason and Love - then there's no real getting hold of Him outside of whatever way (Jesus) he wants to reveal himself. He's the first cause which otherwise eludes us.
If we try to work out reality without God in it, which of course is entirely do-able and entirely necessary if we object to God's reality, then from a Christian point of view whatever we choose from creation to replace God as our first cause becomes our idol.
So if morality (to choose an example which interests me) is to be deduced from the mores of society, society is our idol. If it comes from whatever is pretty, we idolise the aesthetic. If is really pertains to issues of economic power, then we idolise the economic. Not forgetting that if we believe it to be inevitable in our genes, we idolise our biology.
The problem with these choices is that from a Christian perspective they are sinful - meaning that they punish us with the shitty unintended consequences which are inherent within each wrong choice. It's not hard to see where the various choices above can take us; unless, like bad programming where we have written a shitty algorithm, we then hedge it around with a pile of messy 'if...then' constraints in order to force it to go in a pre-ordained direction we think desirable, by special pleading. I guess I tend to think of humanism in those terms.
Dooyeweerd's 15 aspects are helpful in thinking about this, and Clouser's 'The myth of religious neutrality' is a good way in.
cheers
Mark
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I wasn't out to defend or denigrate the use of icons nor to suggest that without them we can't have a high view of the Eucharist.
I was simply using a list of physical objects and rituals that many Christians believe to convey grace in some way.
The irony us that many Protestants seem far too ready to believe that a symbol, a ritual or practice is evil or harmful than they are to believe that others can convey spiritual blessings and grace.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
A nuttily conservative friend of my husband assured me that the statue of Dancing Shiva on my mantel is a demonic idol. I told him it is available for sale in tourist shops across India. (He also burned all his D&D manuals out on the barbecue grill; I urged him to buy as many copies of my books as he could and burn them as well.)
Second hand story, but a friend of mine actually did meet a Christian who used to buy astrology books for the purpose of burning them.
I'm not sure if the guy was doing it to stop people from being exposed to the ideas in the books(in which case it was a rather futile endeavour, because most astrology fans will just go to another store), or because he thought that the physical properties of the books themselves were somehow imparting evil into the world(in which case his strategy would be a litle more rational, relatively speaking).
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
And the Republic Of Korea has a fairly substantial history of Christians(almost all of them protestant, I think) vandalizing Buddhist statues and temples. Here is just one recent example of a Korean protestant replicating the solemn dignity of Luther at the church door.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Macrina
Shipmate
# 8807
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Posted
I suppose it's all about teasing out the difference between symbolism and the material.
There is nothing inherently bad about wood or stone or copper etc but if we make a swastika out of that material then it becomes imbued with meaning of our own making.
I suppose the same is true for any idol or religious image. The power comes from what we believe about it, not anything it has itself. So if you're a Buddhist with a statue of Mary it lacks any symbolism that a Catholic might associate with it.
That being said symbols are meant to convey our thoughts, feelings, opinions and beliefs for us so you'd have to bear in mind what others who saw your symbols thought of them.
Posts: 535 | From: Christchurch, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
We serve in a culture where idols are present in pretty much every nonChristian home, and sacrifices are offered to them. So that informs what I'm about to say, because the issue is closer to my people (if I may call them so) than it is to most Westerners.
If you come from an upbringing where idols are truly believed to be endued with power--not merely symbols, or things meant to draw your mind to concepts or beings elsewhere--but actual objects of power and reverence, or at least so closely connected to gods that they cannot really be separated--
in that case, as a Christian against that context, you are going to watch your step very carefully with regards to such objects. First for the sake of public honesty--you wouldn't want your nonChristian friends and relatives seeing you doing anything that looked even mildly compromising with regards to your new faith. But second, because those objects can never be to you the merely artistic items that they probably are to your Western friends. They may place a statue of Buddha in the garden, or hang a picture of Kwan Yin where they can admire its beauty. For you, however, that would be like hanging a picture of your ex-spouse in the heart of your home. There was a relationship there, once upon a time. The picture was and is charged with a certain kind of meaning, of power. You cannot ignore that fact without doing violence to yourself.
Let's change the metaphor a bit. Imagine you were visiting someone in a very, VERY isolated part of the world, and discovered they had a painting hung in a place of honor because they like the colors. Fine. But then you go closer and see the signature: "Adolf Hitler". Oh shit. The people in the home are living in happy ignorance of exactly who and what is associated with their painting. You are not, cannot share that attitude. It's going to draw your eye every time you walk past. You're going to have trouble sleeping if they've hung it in your bedroom. You may even make the attempt to convince them to take it down and destroy it--all the more if you happen to be someone whose relatives died in the camps.
Someone might say to you: "But it's just a bit of canvas with colors on it." Well, yes, and yet... A knife that's been used for murder is just a bit of steel. And yet nobody washes it and puts it back in the kitchen drawer, do they? And people tend to tear down the former homes of notorious killers, though the masonry is sound and the house could be used by someone else. But it's psychically contaminated, at least for anybody who knows the connection. We get rid of it.
So also with idols, particularly for Christians who are still within living memory of a time when they were used in worship.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I don't think that these things are spiritually 'radioactive' in some way - and tend to think that any 'power' they may possess - or even channel if you like - is more down to association than anything intrinsically within the images themselves ... ie I don't believe that they are 'possessed' by evil spirits in any talismanic kind of way ...
A friend of ours told us that her brother destroyed a model Viking ship which he had inherited because it was possessed by a "demon of pillaging".
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
those objects can never be to you the merely artistic items that they probably are to your Western friends.
My wife got rid of a pendant/medallion with symbols on it which to her were merely aesthetically appealing, but which upset some of our Chinese Christian friends.
Many years ago when we were working in India we missed a connection in Singapore, and filled in the time until the next flight by taking a bus tour which included major religious sites.
In the Hindu temple we were confronted by an idol of the elephant god, and our reaction - wife , kids and self - was, "Hey, there's Ganesh", as if we had unexpectedly bumped into an old friend, much as an American in strange circumstances might welcome a culturally familiar image such as Mickey Mouse.
However, no doubt the reaction of an ex-Hindu Indian Christian would have been different.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Macrina:
I suppose the same is true for any idol or religious image. The power comes from what we believe about it, not anything it has itself. So if you're a Buddhist with a statue of Mary it lacks any symbolism that a Catholic might associate with it.
I think the classic Biblical answer to this question is found in Isaiah 44:9-20, where a man chops down a tree, cuts up half of it for firewood but makes an idol out of the other half and worships it. Isaiah is scathing in his scorn. More to the point - and remembering that this was written in a context where idols were most definitely regard as objects with spiritual power - he is quite clear that the "value" of the idol resides purely in the mind of the worshipper, it is not intrinsic to the object itself.
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Frankenstein
Shipmate
# 16198
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Posted
If you visit Parliament Square, in London, you will find amongst others, Churchill, Abebraham Lincoln and Ghandi. Admired people but not idols.
The Iconoclasts should be wanting to destroy these!
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It is better to travel in hope than to arrive?
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
To the OP: a lot less than the virtual ones we all have in our heads. Including the vast majority of 'Gods'.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I wasn't out to defend or denigrate the use of icons nor to suggest that without them we can't have a high view of the Eucharist.
Your anecdote could give the impression that there are only two diametrically opposite approaches.
As to the OP, mostly what Lamb Chopped said, as well as what Baptist Trainfan said, with a little bit of Walter Wink thrown in.
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I think the classic Biblical answer to this question is found in Isaiah 44:9-20, where a man chops down a tree, cuts up half of it for firewood but makes an idol out of the other half and worships it. Isaiah is scathing in his scorn. More to the point - and remembering that this was written in a context where idols were most definitely regard as objects with spiritual power - he is quite clear that the "value" of the idol resides purely in the mind of the worshipper, it is not intrinsic to the object itself.
You beat me to it! ISTM Isaiah objects to idol worship because he thinks it's stupid and irrational, not because they radiate evil like some kind of spiritual depleted uranium.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Frankenstein
Shipmate
# 16198
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
To the OP: a lot less than the virtual ones we all have in our heads. Including the vast majority of 'Gods'.
Our new gods seem to be "musicians" and celebrates.
At one time they were film stars.
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It is better to travel in hope than to arrive?
Posts: 267 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2011
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A Feminine Force
Ship's Onager
# 7812
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Posted
ISTM the power that we invest in any symbol through the devotion of attention energy can be polarized in either direction (negative or positive spin).
ISTM "evil" is a moral equivalence that doesn't exist without a moral agent to draw the distinction apart from "good". If a tree falls in the woods and nobody can hear it, does it make a sound ... that kind of thing.
As Christ reminded us, it's not what goes in through the mouth, but what comes out of it, that defiles us. What we project upon the symbol invests it with its moral meaning.
So by itself, without the spin of negative or positive attention, I'm inclined to say an idol is what it is - an image, without moral equivalence.
AFF
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C2C - The Cure for What Ails Ya?
Posts: 2115 | From: Kingdom of Heaven | Registered: Jul 2004
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Frankenstein
Shipmate
# 16198
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by A Feminine Force:
ISTM the power that we invest in any symbol through the devotion of attention energy can be polarized in either direction (negative or positive spin).
ISTM "evil" is a moral equivalence that doesn't exist without a moral agent to draw the distinction apart from "good". If a tree falls in the woods and nobody can hear it, does it make a sound ... that kind of thing.
As Christ reminded us, it's not what goes in through the mouth, but what comes out of it, that defiles us. What we project upon the symbol invests it with its moral meaning. An idol is an object or person to whom some heap devotion or adoration.
So by itself, without the spin of negative or positive attention, I'm inclined to say an idol is what it is - an image, without moral equivalence.
AFF
I am afraid that you speak in a language that is virtually meaningless to me.
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It is better to travel in hope than to arrive?
Posts: 267 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
A view that I haven't seen here yet is that the idols themselves were never either good or evil. And it is not just a question of how they were regarded, although that is important.
Rather, as I understand it, the idols were used as means of communicating with evil spirits. This assumes that such things exist and can be communicated with, but that is the clear biblical assumption. Ancient peoples had way of making these communications that were credible to them, and obviously not credible to most of us.
So the idols were evil mostly because they served as symbols and means of communications with evil spirits, who claimed they were gods. There was then actual communication with these spirits, actual worship of them, and actual obedience to them. The spirits then directed them to do things that were not good.
Again, this assumes that such things as evil spirits exist and that it is possible for them to communicate with people. This is what the Bible assumes.
Today, however, most people don't believe in things like this, and almost no one is able to make these kinds of communications. When it happens for medical reasons we call it schizophrenia, and if people try to do it on purpose we call it "occult" and doubt that it is even real.
As a consequence this is no longer a spiritual issue for the great majority of people. So literal idols have no remaining evil "power."
Instead the commandment for us shifts to worldly goods and goals that we seek and worship to the exclusion of spiritual ones, or the exclusion of God.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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A Feminine Force
Ship's Onager
# 7812
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Frankenstein:
I am afraid that you speak in a language that is virtually meaningless to me.
Thank you for adding so thoughtfully to the discussion. You are very kind.
AFF
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C2C - The Cure for What Ails Ya?
Posts: 2115 | From: Kingdom of Heaven | Registered: Jul 2004
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
In what has become a classic about idolatry, an evangelical missionary wrote What is idolatry?
He points out that for Hindus, God is utterly beyond human grasp – it is God that grasps us, not we Him. Hindus use murtis – images – as visual aids. What Christian Sunday School teacher doesn’t use visual aids?
Christianity has sanctioned images ever since the dispute between the iconoclasts and the inconodules. The former wanted no images but the latter argued that God made an image – Christ (who scripture – Col 1:15 - says is the image – icon in the Greek) . Because of that, we can sanctify all material things, not just bresad and wine.
Today’s idols are status, power and money.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
@Chris Stiles - sure, I can see why you'd conclude that from the anecdote I used - but an anecdote is just that, an anecdote ... it wasn't meant to be the sum total of all there is to say on the matter.
I find myself in agreement with much of what has been said here - and I can see Lamb Chopped's point of view when it comes to Christian converts from religions where idols are seen not simply as symbols but as channels or conveyors of spiritual power ...
And I find myself in sympathy with what Kaplan Corday has posted - my reaction would have been similar had I seen a statue of Ganesh in that context ... - and Baptist Trainfan too.
That said, hand on heart and confession time - I s'pose I have been influenced by the Orthodox to the extent that I don't have that much difficulty with the idea that an icon, a relic, a place or a particular ritual can somehow 'channel' or convey spiritual power and grace - but at the same time, of course, given my Protestant evangelical background, I can still difficulties with that ... it can lead to the use of objects as talismans and so on ...
What I have found and observed is that the mileage varies in RC and Orthodox circles too - in terms of how comfortable people with certain practices and modes of veneration of shrines, objects, icons and so on ... there's by no means a one-size-fits-all approach there either.
But the discussion isn't about Christian iconography or objects of veneration but those pertaining to other religions.
I can certainly see in animist cultures and societies where people may feel themselves in thrall in some way to spirits and influences associated with cultic objects then there would be a clear need to repudiate these things and distance oneself from them.
I'm less sure, though, when it comes to Buddhist iconography as I'm not quite sure what role it plays in a non-theistic religion.
I have to say, I don't particularly feel comfortable with Hindu statuary and so on - but that might be an aesthetic thing or a cultural thing as much as anything else ... but I wouldn't see them as intrinsically 'evil' in and of themselves.
But then, I don't feel particularly comfortable with statuary in a Christian context either ... again, that might be Orthodox influence. They tend to be more comfortable with 2D rather than 3D images and Byzantine iconography is highly stylised too ... so you don't tend to get the very florid Baroque treatments that you find within Roman Catholicism.
But this is about non-Christian representations and idols of gods and so on ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Frankenstein:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
To the OP: a lot less than the virtual ones we all have in our heads. Including the vast majority of 'Gods'.
Our new gods seem to be "musicians" and celebrates.
At one time they were film stars.
I ain't talkin' little gee gods wot celebrates F. Om talkin' the graven images in our heads we call God.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
As to the OP, mostly what Lamb Chopped said, as well as what Baptist Trainfan said, with a little bit of Walter Wink thrown in.
This may become my new rubric for life in general.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Rather, as I understand it, the idols were used as means of communicating with evil spirits. This assumes that such things exist and can be communicated with, but that is the clear biblical assumption. Ancient peoples had way of making these communications that were credible to them, and obviously not credible to most of us.
So the idols were evil mostly because they served as symbols and means of communications with evil spirits, who claimed they were gods. There was then actual communication with these spirits, actual worship of them, and actual obedience to them. The spirits then directed them to do things that were not good.
Again, this assumes that such things as evil spirits exist and that it is possible for them to communicate with people. This is what the Bible assumes.
Today, however, most people don't believe in things like this...
Should say today most Westerners don't believe in things like this. It is still the dominant world view in many parts of the world, and is a component of some Western Christian theologies, including Walter Wink's as well as open theism (cue Martin).
[ 05. March 2016, 16:27: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Let's change the metaphor a bit. Imagine you were visiting someone in a very, VERY isolated part of the world, and discovered they had a painting hung in a place of honor because they like the colors. Fine. But then you go closer and see the signature: "Adolf Hitler". Oh shit. The people in the home are living in happy ignorance of exactly who and what is associated with their painting. You are not, cannot share that attitude. It's going to draw your eye every time you walk past. You're going to have trouble sleeping if they've hung it in your bedroom. You may even make the attempt to convince them to take it down and destroy it--all the more if you happen to be someone whose relatives died in the camps.
Well, okay, but let's extend these metaphors a bit.
If a houseguest approached me and said that my painting was by someone who her people knew only as a genocidal maniac, I could easily be convinced to take the painting down during the duration of her stay, and possibly forever. And I would probably feel myself obligated to apologize for any discomfort she had felt as a result of seeing the painting.
But if a houseguest approached me and said that the Hawaiian statuette on my desk represented a pagan god that her family had worshipped before their conversion? I dunno, I MIGHT take it down for the duration of her stay, just to avoid bad feelings with a houseguest, and I MIGHT issue a pretty perfunctory apology. But the statuettte would go right back on my desk the second she left the house, and I certainly wouldn't feel any remorse about what she had "been through" in having to see it.
Granted, I'm not a believing Christian, but I would still like to think that most intelligent believing Christians would see a distinction between an idol, whose power only exists in the minds of people who think it has power(which presumably excludes those who have converted to Christianity), and Hitler, who actually execrices temporal power to slaughter millions of people.
[ 06. March 2016, 06:08: Message edited by: Stetson ]
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
leo - you win some.
cliffdweller - you lose some! It is NOT a component of Walter Wink's theology OR open theism EXCEPT in the person of ONE man, as you well know. If there are any more, they are irrelevant.
The problem of evil supernatural beings is a SEPARATE one from Boyd's (unforgivable) Marcionite (forgivable) demiurgical dualism.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Frankenstein
Shipmate
# 16198
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Posted
When Moses came down from Mount Sinai, he found the people worshiping a golden calf.
Today's biggest Idol seems to be money.
We live for money. We are judged by the amount of money we accumulate.
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It is better to travel in hope than to arrive?
Posts: 267 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Frankenstein
Shipmate
# 16198
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by A Feminine Force:
quote:
Originally posted by Frankenstein:
I am afraid that you speak in a language that is virtually meaningless to me.
Thank you for adding so thoughtfully to the discussion. You are very kind.
AFF
Your heavy sarcasm is noted.
Please interpret:
ISTM the power that we invest in any symbol through the devotion of attention energy can be polarized in either direction (negative or positive spin).
What is 'attention energy' and why is it polarized?
An idol is a false god.
If 'we invest' in such a symbol we are misleading ourselves.
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It is better to travel in hope than to arrive?
Posts: 267 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Today, however, most people don't believe in things like this...
Should say today most Westerners don't believe in things like this. It is still the dominant world view in many parts of the world, and is a component of some Western Christian theologies, including Walter Wink's as well as open theism (cue Martin).
Good point. It might even be said that ours is the minority perspective.
As for me personally I do believe that the ancient peoples did speak with spirits. I also believe that they really did worship evil spirits through their idols, who led them to do terrible things in the name of their gods.
The Old Testament routinely reports God speaking with Abraham, etc. We pretty much laugh at anyone who would claim such a thing, except of course in the sense that God speaks to all of us in subtle and inaudible ways. But this kind of open speech with unseen entities is normal and understood literally by the Old Testament mindset because it was commonly experienced.
To me this describes a truly wicked and dangerous side to the worship of idols. Without understanding this the literal worship of idols seems like a useless and silly superstition, but one that was not literally harmful in any tangible way. But these figurines told them to sacrifice their children, slaughter their enemies and otherwise misbehave.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Freddy: But these figurines told them to sacrifice their children, slaughter their enemies and otherwise misbehave.
Did all non-Christian deities do this?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
However, and it is certainly a 'however', for those of us who may be open to Christian iconography as some kind of conveyor/channel of grace - in a way that the Eucharist is believed to be - or in some kind of 'genius locii' thing going on in certain places ... there is always a possibility, I think, of good or malign influences somehow being associated with or 'channelled' by particular objects, actions and so on ...
Part of the problem with this is that it reifies evil as a *thing*. If one takes the Augustinian definition of evil as the absence of good, then evil is not a thing that can be channeled.
Metaphorically: a lantern or flashlight can be a locus of light inasmuch as it is a source of light. There is no such thing as a source of darkness. Darkness is merely the absence of light.
I thought of using a radio as a metaphor for something thought to channel God's grace, and was going to say there is no anti-radio that can channel lack of grace. But I suppose one could also say that just as God can be likened to a transmission tower that broadcasts grace to be picked up by these radios (of which humans are the pinnacle, perhaps), one could also liken evil spirits as transmission towers transmitting on a different frequency, in which case physical idols become the radios that pick up those signals.
So it would come down to whether or not one believed in the reality of demons and their ability to operate through such "radios."
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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fausto
Shipmate
# 13737
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Posted
Idols per se are not forbidden in the Bible. What is forbidden is idolatry -- the worship of material, especially man-made, objects as if they possessed divine qualities. The reason such attribution of divinity is forbidden is that the people of the Bible believed there was only one God, one source of divinity.
So in a twist of irony, people who object to the purely decorative display of statues or images from other religious traditions as evil idol-worship are not only mistaken, but in fact they themselves are committing precisely the kind of idolatry that the Bible actually forbids: they are attributing supernatural power to powerless manmade objects, and in so doing, denying the sole power of the one true God.
[ 06. March 2016, 12:18: Message edited by: fausto ]
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"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way." Gospel of Philip, Logion 72
Posts: 407 | From: Boston, Mass. | Registered: May 2008
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A Feminine Force
Ship's Onager
# 7812
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Frankenstein:
Please interpret:
ISTM the power that we invest in any symbol through the devotion of attention energy can be polarized in either direction (negative or positive spin).
What is 'attention energy' and why is it polarized?
Thank you for the opportunity to clarify - or further obfuscate. Either way, I appreciate it.
Attention is energy. When we pay attention to something, we devote energy to it.
Have you ever spent an entire day prone on the couch watching television, and after eight or ten hours, had to drag yourself to bed, overcome with exhaustion, after having done nothing other than give your attention to the TV?
Intense focus on any thing or activity is draining. It activates neuromuscular activity that drains us of energy.
How do we spin attention energy?
Here's an exercise in spinning attention energy.
Pick an item with a neutral meaning - a pencil, a coffee mug, a salt shaker. Focus your attention very closely on this item, and then tell yourself "this (whatever) is an evil, putrid, filthy piece of trash".
Just keep telling yourself this, and keep your attention narrowly focused on the thing. Do this for a whole five minutes (don't cheat) and then observe your physiological, mental and emotional state.
Do the exercise again, and this time pick labels that have a positive connotation.
quote:
Originally posted by Frankenstein:
An idol is a false god.
If 'we invest' in such a symbol we are misleading ourselves.
I agree. But we do this without even thinking about it. Rather than appreciating the thing for what it is (its "is-ness" as it were), we see it as a 2-D image, and then we overlay the image with an emotional charge depending on the label we assign to it.
I personally have come to the conclusion that all gods are false gods. To me, the god of the Bible is an just another idol made of words (symbols).
My conclusion is that the One in whom we have our being cannot be seen, symbolized or in any way substituted through visual or auditory symbolism.
AFF
[ 06. March 2016, 12:35: Message edited by: A Feminine Force ]
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C2C - The Cure for What Ails Ya?
Posts: 2115 | From: Kingdom of Heaven | Registered: Jul 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
But if a houseguest approached me and said that the Hawaiian statuette on my desk represented a pagan god that her family had worshipped before their conversion? I dunno, I MIGHT take it down for the duration of her stay, just to avoid bad feelings with a houseguest, and I MIGHT issue a pretty perfunctory apology. But the statuettte would go right back on my desk the second she left the house, and I certainly wouldn't feel any remorse about what she had "been through" in having to see it.
Granted, I'm not a believing Christian, but I would still like to think that most intelligent believing Christians would see a distinction between an idol, whose power only exists in the minds of people who think it has power(which presumably excludes those who have converted to Christianity), and Hitler, who actually execrices temporal power to slaughter millions of people.
Well, actually, Hitler no longer (thank God) has the power to slaughter anyone. Although the idea of Hitler still inspires some to do so-- as might (at least theoretically) the idol.
I think Lamb's example of having a picture of an ex-lover hanging in the living room is the best analogy. When I remarried after my divorce, we had a lot of these sorts of things to sort out. I was married to my first (now deceased) spouse a long time, we had a child, so the house was full of things like our wedding china or the earrings he got me for our anniversary, and of course, the bed we used to sleep in. And, on the one hand, they were just things-- things that were useful and would cost money to replace. Inanimate objects with no inherent connection to my ex. But there were memories attached to those things. So my new husband and I had to have lots of conversations about what things to keep out of sheer pragmatism, and which things were just too loaded with meaning. None of the things were "evil", but some we decided were better donated to charity.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Freddy: But these figurines told them to sacrifice their children, slaughter their enemies and otherwise misbehave.
Did all non-Christian deities do this?
I have no idea.
My understanding is that in the far removed ancient past the communication with spirits was largely benevolent. Leaders and prophets spoke with good spirits and this was widely understood as a good and normal thing.
But over time the spiritual landscape changed as people changed in this world. Increasingly the spirits that so-called prophets and seers communicated with were more negative. Eventually they were so universally wicked that the Jewish religion was founded, in which the worship of idols and communication with spirits was forbidden.
This increasingly negative spiritual environment was what determined the timing of the Advent, according to my denomination.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
]Should say today most Westerners don't believe in things like this. It is still the dominant world view in many parts of the world, and is a component of some Western Christian theologies, including Walter Wink's as well as open theism (cue Martin).
Good point. It might even be said that ours is the minority perspective. [/QB]
It is definitely a minority perspective, especially historically. And it's not really "ours". I'm with Walter Wink and Greg Boyd on this one.
quote:
Originally posted by fausto:
Idols per se are not forbidden in the Bible. What is forbidden is idolatry -- the worship of material, especially man-made, objects as if they possessed divine qualities. The reason such attribution of divinity is forbidden is that the people of the Bible believed there was only one God, one source of divinity.
So in a twist of irony, people who object to the purely decorative display of statues or images from other religious traditions as evil idol-worship are not only mistaken, but in fact they themselves are committing precisely the kind of idolatry that the Bible actually forbids: they are attributing supernatural power to powerless manmade objects, and in so doing, denying the sole power of the one true God.
True. And Paul says pretty much the same thing in his discussion of eating meat offered to idols. And yet Paul also says as Christians we have a responsibility to our fellow believers who might be harmed by our harmless activity-- harmed by falling into this sort of a thinking. So 1st c. Christians needed at times to abstain from eating meat offered to idols, not for their own spiritual health, but for their neighbors. So too 21st c. Christians may need to avoid certain items or even practices, not for their own spiritual health, but for that of their neighbors.
[ 06. March 2016, 13:01: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Frankenstein
Shipmate
# 16198
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by A Feminine Force:
quote:
Originally posted by Frankenstein:
Please interpret:
ISTM the power that we invest in any symbol through the devotion of attention energy can be polarized in either direction (negative or positive spin).
What is 'attention energy' and why is it polarized?
Thank you for the opportunity to clarify - or further obfuscate. Either way, I appreciate it.
Attention is energy. When we pay attention to something, we devote energy to it.
Have you ever spent an entire day prone on the couch watching television, and after eight or ten hours, had to drag yourself to bed, overcome with exhaustion, after having done nothing other than give your attention to the TV?
Intense focus on any thing or activity is draining. It activates neuromuscular activity that drains us of energy.
How do we spin attention energy?
Here's an exercise in spinning attention energy.
Pick an item with a neutral meaning - a pencil, a coffee mug, a salt shaker. Focus your attention very closely on this item, and then tell yourself "this (whatever) is an evil, putrid, filthy piece of trash".
Just keep telling yourself this, and keep your attention narrowly focused on the thing. Do this for a whole five minutes (don't cheat) and then observe your physiological, mental and emotional state.
Do the exercise again, and this time pick labels that have a positive connotation.
quote:
Originally posted by Frankenstein:
An idol is a false god.
If 'we invest' in such a symbol we are misleading ourselves.
I agree. But we do this without even thinking about it. Rather than appreciating the thing for what it is (its "is-ness" as it were), we see it as a 2-D image, and then we overlay the image with an emotional charge depending on the label we assign to it.
I personally have come to the conclusion that all gods are false gods. To me, the god of the Bible is an just another idol made of words (symbols).
My conclusion is that the One in whom we have our being cannot be seen, symbolized or in any way substituted through visual or auditory symbolism.
AFF
Thank you for your clarification.
I am of the belief that God is beyond our comprehension and that any attributes we attribute to Him are meaningless.
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It is better to travel in hope than to arrive?
Posts: 267 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
God is love. Love is kind.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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fausto
Shipmate
# 13737
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
And yet Paul also says as Christians we have a responsibility to our fellow believers who might be harmed by our harmless activity-- harmed by falling into this sort of a thinking. So 1st c. Christians needed at times to abstain from eating meat offered to idols, not for their own spiritual health, but for their neighbors. So too 21st c. Christians may need to avoid certain items or even practices, not for their own spiritual health, but for that of their neighbors.
True, but in that case we would not be avoiding idols because we believe the objects themselves to be inherently evil, but rather, we would be avoiding the evil that our own inadvertent insensitivity and lack of compassion can cause to our neighbors.
[ 06. March 2016, 21:14: Message edited by: fausto ]
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"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way." Gospel of Philip, Logion 72
Posts: 407 | From: Boston, Mass. | Registered: May 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fausto:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
And yet Paul also says as Christians we have a responsibility to our fellow believers who might be harmed by our harmless activity-- harmed by falling into this sort of a thinking. So 1st c. Christians needed at times to abstain from eating meat offered to idols, not for their own spiritual health, but for their neighbors. So too 21st c. Christians may need to avoid certain items or even practices, not for their own spiritual health, but for that of their neighbors.
True, but in that case we would not be avoiding idols because we believe the objects themselves to be inherently evil, but rather, we would be avoiding the evil that our own inadvertent insensitivity and lack of compassion can cause to our neighbors.
Exactly my point, yes. An idol is just a hunk of clay (or wood, or stone, or whatever). It has not inherent good or evil to it. Same as the household objects I described in my earlier post. But we humans do tend to attach meaning to various objects, and pretending otherwise is unkind.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
In what way are you with Walter Wink?
5* alliteration there you'll agree.
cliffdweller. The reason I'm so hard on you, even though I said I wouldn't be because of your unconditional kindness, is because you have just one tiny mote in your eye ...
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
In what way are you with Walter Wink?
Wink similarly believes in the existence of demonic powers-- in fact, Boyd gets it from him. Unlike "spiritual warfare" theologies prevalent in Pentecostal churches, Wink sees the demonic powers as manifest primarily in systemic evil-- i.e. unjust systems of oppression and the "myth of redemptive violence". Pentecostal spiritual warfare preachers of course see demonic powers as manifest in personified evil that is experienced individually rather than corporately. Boyd believes both are true (as do I).
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
In what way are you with Walter Wink?
5* alliteration there you'll agree.
I see what you did there. ![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
cliffdweller. The reason I'm so hard on you, even though I said I wouldn't be because of your unconditional kindness, is because you have just one tiny mote in your eye ...
Sadly, way more than one tiny one, I am sure.
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by fausto:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
And yet Paul also says as Christians we have a responsibility to our fellow believers who might be harmed by our harmless activity-- harmed by falling into this sort of a thinking. So 1st c. Christians needed at times to abstain from eating meat offered to idols, not for their own spiritual health, but for their neighbors. So too 21st c. Christians may need to avoid certain items or even practices, not for their own spiritual health, but for that of their neighbors.
True, but in that case we would not be avoiding idols because we believe the objects themselves to be inherently evil, but rather, we would be avoiding the evil that our own inadvertent insensitivity and lack of compassion can cause to our neighbors.
Exactly my point, yes. An idol is just a hunk of clay (or wood, or stone, or whatever). It has not inherent good or evil to it. Same as the household objects I described in my earlier post. But we humans do tend to attach meaning to various objects, and pretending otherwise is unkind.
Yes, but then, by that trajectory, someone who was sexually abused by a clergyman who read passages from the Bible to justify(in a twisted manner) his predatory actions might very well develop an aversion to Bible readings.
But I wonder how many Christians(especially of the kind who get worked up about idols) would agree to forego dinner-time Bible readings, or to remove a Bible from prominent display in their house, if they had aguest staying with them who had experienced that particular abuse-scenario.
[ 07. March 2016, 04:25: Message edited by: Stetson ]
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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