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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Are Protestantism and Roman Catholicism Heretical?
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Frankenstein
Shipmate
# 16198
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Posted
I quote from the Orthodox Christian Center:
The reader should be aware that my motivation for compiling these texts does not stem from a desire to "bash the heterodox" but rather to help my fellow Orthodox brothers and sisters to understand that much of the rhetoric we hear today regarding Western Christians is not faithful to Holy Tradition. It thus undermines the unity and uniqueness of the one true Church the Orthodox Church, which embodies the very criterion of Christianity, being the sole preserver of the unadulterated Apostolic and Holy Tradition.
It is necessary to state from the outset, that the attitude to the Christian West has never been discussed by any representative body of the Orthodox Church. Neither Roman Catholics nor Protestants have ever been condemned or excommunicated as such, so a common policy in regard to them has never been adopted. ("The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and the Anglicans,"
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It is better to travel in hope than to arrive?
Posts: 267 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2011
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Some people think they are. What is there to discuss?
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Among my own beliefs, there are a couple that are probably heretical from traditional Catholic, Orthodox, or even Protestant view point. This doesn't concern me much.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Frankenstein
Shipmate
# 16198
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Posted
I see much to be admired in the Orthodox Church.
They have the advantaged of being untarnished by the likes of Luther, Calvin, Knox and Cranmer.
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It is better to travel in hope than to arrive?
Posts: 267 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Frankenstein:
I see much to be admired in the Orthodox Church.
They have the advantaged of being untarnished by the likes of Luther, Calvin, Knox and Cranmer.
Okay, so you're not Protestant. Where exactly is this supposed to be going?
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
Of course the Protestants and Roman Catholics are a bunch of heretics. Just ask the Orthodox!
Of course the Orthodox and Protestants are a bunch of heretics. Just ask the Roman Catholics!
Of course the Roman Catholics and Orthodox are a bunch of heretics. Just ask the Protestants!
Parsing who is and isn't really a Christian is one of the longest lived pastimes in the Church (however defined). Just remember, it's all fun and games until someone gets burned at the stake!
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
As Shipmates will know, I'm something of an Orthophile ... but I think you'll find, Frankenstein, that they've got as much to say about the Papacy and various 'additional' aspects of Roman Catholicism - as they see it - as they have to say about schismatic Protestants ...
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
In fact, they see us as two sides of the same Western coin and not at all as distinct from one another as we see ourselves ...
I'll leave that to the Orthodox shipmates to explain ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Frankenstein:
They have the advantaged of being untarnished by the likes of Luther, Calvin, Knox and Cranmer.
But tarnished by a grisly succession of grotesques with proclivities for everything from deliberate blinding to anti-Semitism.
No Christian family is free from embarrassing members.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
No Christian family is free from embarrassing members.
How true! Just look at the original apostles! We have one who betrayed Jesus; one who denied him; one who doubted the resurrection...
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Thank God I was liberalized before I turned 60.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Sure, and it ill-behoves any Christian tradition to try to make out that its own grotesques are less grotesque than anyone else's ...
We Protestants can raise the Orthodox an Ivan The Terrible and Rasputin ...
They can raise us dodgy televangelists and various charlatans ...
As for the RCs, then the same Church produced St Francis of Assisi and the Borgia Popes ...
I suspect though, that what Frankenstein was getting at wasn't so much that Luther, Calvin, Cramner and whoever else he mentioned were grotesques or morally suspect - more that he didn't agree with their theology ...
Which is a different matter.
But then, if it's theology we're talking about then the Orthodox don't like Aquinas - and aren't too keen on Augustine - and the RCs are suspicious of Byzantine hesychasm ...
And round and round we go.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I suspect all denominations have an element of heresy in them.
I seem to remember even Jesus Christ was found guilty of blasphemy by the institutional religious authorities of the time. Jesus the Heresiarch. Got an intriguing sort of ring to it.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
quote:
Neither Roman Catholics nor Protestants have ever been condemned or excommunicated as such, so a common policy in regard to them has never been adopted. ("The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and the Anglicans,"
So, what was Patriarch Michael Cerularius doing in 1054 then? Anyway, we got the Orthodox first in the Great Schism, so that must mean his return fire doesn't count.
(I think the RC's and the Orthodox are well down the road to reconciliation. I wish them every good thing.)
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Where exactly is this supposed to be going?
The gutter
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
We Protestants can raise the Orthodox an Ivan The Terrible and Rasputin ...
'm currently reading Simon Sebag-Montefiore's just-published history of the Romanovs, which is practically non-stop sex and violence ("A bit like my family", as Baldrick said, "but without the sex".
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
But then, if it's theology we're talking about
Given that the thread title uses the word "heretical" and not something about containing weirdos in its family tree, then yeah, it's theology we're talking about.
I don't understand the point of the OP, frankly. He asks "Are Protestantism and RCism heretical?" then posts a quote by an Orfie that says they aren't. Forgive me but it looks like an attempt to stir up shit.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Forgive me but
Asking forgiveness in advance before making personal insults in Purgatory does not legitimise your behaviour.
Alan has already linked to a perfectly suitable Hell thread for this purpose. If posters can't find a constructive way to address the OP I for one will be content to let it sink like a stone.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
So the very criterion of Christianity isn't unfailing kindness?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I suspect all denominations have an element of heresy in them.
This.
I was about to say - all of us are heretics, none has the whole of the truth.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
Just because it seemed relevant:
"Beliefs must be distinguished from faith.
Beliefs belong to the century one lives in.
Faith goes on from age to age because it is
not a set of beliefs but an attitude - the
attitude of trust".
Wilfred Cantwell Smith
So what do churches have in common?
And what divides them?
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I don't understand the point of the OP, frankly. He asks "Are Protestantism and RCism heretical?" then posts a quote by an Orfie that says they aren't. Forgive me but it looks like an attempt to stir up shit.
OK listen this was my fault; I found the link from which the clips come. In fact the page is quite complicated and gives an overview of the history of views of the RCC by various Orthodox writers.
I know that one cannot cast all Orthodox in any particular view, my point was simply in response to Frankenstein's claim on another thread of a cosy relationship between Orthodox and the RCC. I was simply trying to show that there exist Orthodox and there exist Roman Catholics who consider the other to be heretics.
And I was making this point in response to the (apparent) suggestion that church unity would only be established if everyone returned to being part of the RCC.
I was just saying that the splits in the church go back a long way and it isn't just a fault-line between Orthodox-and-Catholic on one hand and Protestants on another - but that the thing is complicated with many different voices from different positions calling each other names.
That's it. Unless someone wants to try discussing how widespread these views are in the RCC and the various Orthodox jurisdictions - which I can't comment upon - I'm not seeing what further there is to say on this subject.
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arse
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I would say that all denominations are in some way heretical if (a) they claim that they possess a complete understanding of the Faith and (b) fail to accept wholeheartedly that they are but one part of the multifaceted Church of God.
(That doesn't mean, by the way, that I necessarily approve of the fissiparous nature of much of Protestantism, as I often think that the splits have been triggered for far-too-human reasons).
[ 11. March 2016, 08:54: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
There are technical definitions of the word "heretic", steeped in profound, beard-stroking theology. In practice, however, the word is used by any group in favour of the more basic "Not-we" to add a varnish of respectability to their hatred of the Other. So yes, from someone's point of view we're all heretics, but as W.S.Gilbert so perceptively said, "When everybody's somebody, then no-one's anybody."
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
'heretic' comes from 'heresy' which means originally 'choosing for oneselves, instead of remaining within the community'
In everyday use at present it generally indicates someone with wrong religious ideas , at least from the point of view of the person using the word.
It is also a loaded word from the past and reminds Protestants of burnings at the stake and other cruel and most probably Catholic punishments for heresy.
As BT says we are almost all heretics as most of us follow the religion which was passed on to us by our parents, always adapting it slightly and perhaps unofficially to suit our own very personal beliefs.
The Catholic Church, as it is normally understood, no longer uses this word except in a very technical sense.
In its official teachings it sees really all who honour God as members of the ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH, though it recognises as well that not all of those are linked in full communion with the Holy See. That, I think, is most definitely a fact.
But surely all of us,or at least most of us believe that the community to which we belong most closely mirrors the ideal of the invisible ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
In its official teachings it sees really all who honour God as members of the ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH, though it recognises as well that not all of those are linked in full communion with the Holy See. That, I think, is most definitely a fact.
I'm not sure if that is a fact, actually. I suspect that it views some of the other church denominations on a similar level as it perceives Buddhists and Islam.
quote:
But surely all of us,or at least most of us believe that the community to which we belong most closely mirrors the ideal of the invisible ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH.
I think there are a whole heap of churches who would never use that language because the creeds are not part of their faith-language.
And I think many would not assume that the "Holy Catholic and Apostolic church" is a form of Platonic ideal anyway. I strongly suspect that many on my side of the fence see only one "True" church - which overlaps many different denominational boundaries - which one is either in or not in.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I'm not sure if that is a fact, actually. I suspect that it views some of the other church denominations on a similar level as it perceives Buddhists and Islam.
On what basis do you say this, mr cheesy?
I've not come across anything from the RCC in recent years - either officially or unofficially - that suggests that they regard Christian groups outside of their own purlieu as being on a similar level to Buddhists and Muslims.
Quite the opposite in fact.
I suspect that there's a certain anti-RC prejudice that is so entrenched within some parts of Protestantism that even if the Pope were to knock on our doors tomorrow and offer us a million pounds we'd check the wad to make sure it was legitimate tender and not counterfeit ...
Or we'd complain that he was giving it to us in £20 notes rather than in £10 and £5 ones or something ...
Saying that there are Christians who are not in communion with the Pope is simply a statement of fact. It doesn't imply that they are not necessarily Christians.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
On what basis do you say this, mr cheesy?
Well stuff like this from Pope Pius XIII in 1957:
quote:
To be Christian one must be Roman; one must recognize the oneness of Christ's Church, that is governed by one successor of the Prince of the Apostles, who is the Bishop of Rome, Christ's Vicar on earth.
Also this kind of thing where the highest structures of the RCC in the past has questioned the validity of other churches.
quote:
"This is not merely a question of terminology, but above all of respecting a basic truth of the Catholic faith: that of the unicity of the Church of Jesus Christ. In fact, there is but a single Church, and therefore the plural term churches can refer only to particular churches."
quote:
Originally posted by Gam:
I've not come across anything from the RCC in recent years - either officially or unofficially - that suggests that they regard Christian groups outside of their own purlieu as being on a similar level to Buddhists and Muslims.
Quite the opposite in fact.
Well no, Francis has appeared to be more embracing that other recent Popes. But then he has also been embracing of those from other faiths, I'm not totally convinced that he considers other churches to contain authentic Christians.
Practice on the ground is a different thing.
quote:
I suspect that there's a certain anti-RC prejudice that is so entrenched within some parts of Protestantism that even if the Pope were to knock on our doors tomorrow and offer us a million pounds we'd check the wad to make sure it was legitimate tender and not counterfeit ...
Or we'd complain that he was giving it to us in £20 notes rather than in £10 and £5 ones or something ...
That's certainly true but I don't really see the relevance.
quote:
Saying that there are Christians who are not in communion with the Pope is simply a statement of fact. It doesn't imply that they are not necessarily Christians.
On the contrary, it seems that for at least some in the RCC hierarchy, non-communion clearly does raise questions about whether the other is really Christian.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Things have changed a lot Post-Vatican II, mr cheesy - and not just under the present incumbent.
Sure, you'll come across individual RCs who can be arsey about other churches and denominations (see what I did there ... ![[Biased]](wink.gif) ) but I'm not aware of any official or unofficial 'line' since around the mid-1960s that suggests that the RCC doesn't consider other Christians to be 'proper' Christians.
Sure, they don't recognise Anglican and other orders - but that's not the same as saying that those who hold such orders or that those who are involved in Protestant churches aren't real Christians.
I really don't know where you're getting this idea from.
Often on the Ship I get the impression that some Protestants think that because the RCC and the Orthodox believe themselves to be the One True Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church that they don't believe that the rest of us are Christians ...
That's not what they are saying ... sure, they regard all other groups as somehow impaired or incomplete - through not being in communion with them - but they aren't saying that members of those groups aren't 'saved' or aren't 'proper' Christians.
Yes, one can encounter zealots and fundies in both the RCC and the Orthodox Churches who do take that kind of line - and I've come across a few - particularly online ...
But by and large, on the ground, they'd regard us as fellow believers who don't happen to be in full communion with them - but who could potentially become so given some adjustments.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
I think this is the kind of thing that prompts Jesus to bang his head against the nearest meteor; wonder why he ever bothered with us; change his phone number; take us off his Christmas and Hannukah card lists; and go incarnate as a clam*, in another galaxy. No forwarding address.
*Nod to CS Lewis.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I really don't know where you're getting this idea from.
It'll be from the things said (and unsaid) like this.
I accept there is nuance and different ways to view this stuff. But saying that some outside the church may be saved is exactly a parallel of saying some Muslims and some Jews will be saved. Nothing I've read suggests that the RCC officially believes that other Christian churches are really Christian nor really churches.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
I agree with mr cheesy who says that there is only one 'True' church.
Most Christians would believe that they,for various reasons, are part of that one 'True' church.
The idea od community is somewhat different in the Catholic church from that of most of the communities springing from the Protestant Reformation.Most Catholics do not concern themselves with the nitty gritty of church doctrine and teaching but the sense of 'community' of belonging to the whole,something bigger than ourselves, is a very palpable one.
Mr Cheesy uses the term one 'True' church,but that one 'True' church is surely 'holy' universal in time and space and based on the teachings of the Apostles.Whether we use these terms or not,they are not unknown. I may be wrong but I thought that mr cheesy was CofE.The terms Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church are certainly used in the CofE and in many of the churches of the Reformation period.
The reason why the Catholic Church doesn't often use the term 'church' for other denominations is because it realises,just like me cheesy, that there is in the final analysis only one 'True' Church.
However they do use the term church for each individual diocese.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
I may be wrong but I thought that mr cheesy was CofE.The terms Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church are certainly used in the CofE and in many of the churches of the Reformation period.
To be clear, I have been in the CofE a long time and my spiritual language does include the creed. However my spiritual tribe is evangelical - and most of my family are very conservative baptist evangelicals. For them the words mean nothing (or perhaps more accurately, less than nothing). I hope that makes it clearer. Just because I know what the words mean does not mean that those I know in the evangelical churches do. They don't.
quote:
The reason why the Catholic Church doesn't often use the term 'church' for other denominations is because it realises,just like me cheesy, that there is in the final analysis only one 'True' Church.
However they do use the term church for each individual diocese.
I think the difference is the extent of overlap. It appears that most in the RCC believe that the "True" church overlaps significantly with the RCC structure.
Many Evangelicals I know would say that the "True" church has nothing to do with denominational structures and that only rare Roman Catholics would be within the "True" church - apparently more-or-less by accident due to them having a personal faith commitment and a relationship with Jesus as saviour.
You might not like this, but it the reality of how a large number in that spiritual heritage view you.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
Most Christians would believe that they,for various reasons, are part of that one 'True' church.
I like to think so, certainly. But I don't equate that with any particular denomination here on earth - I think the One True Church is simply the Body of Christ and as such consists of Christians across the world, be they Orthodox, Catholic, Anglican, Baptist, Methodist, Fundypentagelical or whatever.
Just as in the Father's house there are many mansions, so in the Church there are many different expressions of faith. Sure, some of them look and feel completely different to each other - but then (to return to the Body of Christ metaphor) an ear looks and feels completely different to a pancreas, yet both are still valuable parts of the same body.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I don't get this, mr cheesy, on the one hand you provide a link to an article which, whilst asserting that salvation cannot be found outside the Church - as understood from an RC - and by extension - Orthodox ecclesiology - yet clearly states that non-Catholics can be saved ... and with some tone of disapproval ...
And at the same time you cite conservative evangelical relatives of yours who might consider it possible for RCs to be saved 'by accident' as it were ... and whilst not doing so approvingly ie. 'this is my position ...'
Whilst ignoring what the Catholic Herald article also says - that just because someone is 'within' the fold, as it were, it doesn't mean that they aren't a wolf in sheep's clothing --
'How many sheep there are without, how many wolves within!' - a quote from St Augustine's homilies.
So people outside the fold may also be inside the fold in some mysterious way ... and yes, RCs and Orthodox would extend that to some Protestants - in a similar way as they might to Jews, Muslims and Buddhists or Hindus.
But that's not saying that Protestants are the 'same' as people of other faiths - that Protestants aren't Christians. At least, that's not how I understand it ... unless I'm missing something.
What the article - and what I take to be the official RC position - seems to be saying is that Presbyterians and other Protestants might not be damned simply on account of not being members of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church - and if they are saved then in some sense they always were a member of that somehow - even without realising it - they would stand a better chance - as it were - if they were to unite themselves with Holy Church as the RCs see it.
Which whilst it might rankle with Protestant sensibilities does carry a certain internal logic which may - or may not - apply to the views of fundamentalist evangelicals.
I suppose in their different ways, both the strong-line RCC take on this and the ardent take of the Protestant conservative evangelicals are like book-ends ... they are both setting strict parameters.
However, in my own experience, I've found RCs and Orthodox to be far more expansive in terms of their view of who might ultimately be saved than most conservative evangelicals I've met.
It's one thing for us Protestants to wring our hands and bemoan Rome's position on this when our fellow co-religionists on the more conservative end are busily condemning to Hell anyone and everyone who doesn't hold to the same tenets as them or who hasn't prayed a particular prayer or believed in a particular way or given assent to this, that or the other set of propositions ... and so on and so forth ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
Most Christians would believe that they,for various reasons, are part of that one 'True' church.
Actually, if the "One True Church" spends much time banging on about who's in and who's out, I'd be embarrassed to be a member of it.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I don't get this, mr cheesy, on the one hand you provide a link to an article which, whilst asserting that salvation cannot be found outside the Church - as understood from an RC - and by extension - Orthodox ecclesiology - yet clearly states that non-Catholics can be saved ... and with some tone of disapproval ...
And at the same time you cite conservative evangelical relatives of yours who might consider it possible for RCs to be saved 'by accident' as it were ... and whilst not doing so approvingly ie. 'this is my position ...'
Whilst ignoring what the Catholic Herald article also says - that just because someone is 'within' the fold, as it were, it doesn't mean that they aren't a wolf in sheep's clothing --
'How many sheep there are without, how many wolves within!' - a quote from St Augustine's homilies.
So people outside the fold may also be inside the fold in some mysterious way ... and yes, RCs and Orthodox would extend that to some Protestants - in a similar way as they might to Jews, Muslims and Buddhists or Hindus.
But that's not saying that Protestants are the 'same' as people of other faiths - that Protestants aren't Christians. At least, that's not how I understand it ... unless I'm missing something.
Hard to respond to a comment that is so full of double/triple negatives. If you want me to answer try being concise and clear what the question is.
You asked me previously why I thought that the RCC treats other churches as it treats other religions. I've given you some reasons and links with the words of the most recent two Popes plus some explanation of how I interpret those words.
You are free to disagree. I accept I could be wrong - but I also assert that I'm not the only person who sees the highest hierarchy speaking in that way.
The fact that my conservative Evangelical relatives believe the opposite is not really anything to do with that point, I was responding to the comment about the "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church", from whom they would only accept the words "One Holy Church".
quote:
What the article - and what I take to be the official RC position - seems to be saying is that Presbyterians and other Protestants might not be damned simply on account of not being members of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church - and if they are saved then in some sense they always were a member of that somehow - even without realising it - they would stand a better chance - as it were - if they were to unite themselves with Holy Church as the RCs see it.
As I said earlier, this is about how one views the overlap between the RCC (in this case) and the One True Church. Understandably, perhaps, the RCC sees itself as fully encompassed by that phrase with occasional people within the faith but outwith of it. Evangelicals would in many cases not describe structures at all when talking about the True Church and some would describe the structures of the RCC as being the antithesis of the True Church.
quote:
Which whilst it might rankle with Protestant sensibilities does carry a certain internal logic which may - or may not - apply to the views of fundamentalist evangelicals.
I think all positions are internally consistent. The issue is not to find a view which is most internally consistent, but to understand how different perspectives of the faith understand each other. In my experience, those who are totally unused to other worldviews tend to have a very linear way of understanding other Christian traditions outwith of their own. In the case of the RCC beliefs, I still believe that the official doctrine is that other churches are not really Christian or churches. Of course, many Protestants think the reverse about the RCC.
My view, which I've articulated here very recently, is that I have absolutely no issue with anyone following their conscience into any church. but that I reject the RCC's claims to be the centre and definition of Christianity and thus could never be a RC.
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I suppose in their different ways, both the strong-line RCC take on this and the ardent take of the Protestant conservative evangelicals are like book-ends ... they are both setting strict parameters.
Yes.
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However, in my own experience, I've found RCs and Orthodox to be far more expansive in terms of their view of who might ultimately be saved than most conservative evangelicals I've met.
As I also said previously. the practice on the ground may vary.
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It's one thing for us Protestants to wring our hands and bemoan Rome's position on this when our fellow co-religionists on the more conservative end are busily condemning to Hell anyone and everyone who doesn't hold to the same tenets as them or who hasn't prayed a particular prayer or believed in a particular way or given assent to this, that or the other set of propositions ... and so on and so forth ...
Excuse me, I am clearly not doing that. I am acknowledging that there are some from my own paddock that call RCs non-Christian. But I'm also asserting that the "normal" position of the RCC hierarchy is that salvation is only to be found within that church.
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arse
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'm not sure that in 'real life' that many people - of whatever Christian confession or tradition - spend their every waking moment mithering about who's in and who's out ...
It seems to be more of a feature of:
- Online discussion boards.
- Converts from one tradition to another - who use it as a way of confirming/justifying their paradigm shift.
- Fundies of all stripes and kinds - RC, Orthodox and Protestant.
Now, that isn't to say that the RCC and the Orthodox DON'T believe themselves to the the One True Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church - of course they do ...
Nor is it to say that there aren't people within each who are almost obsessive about it ... I met a lovely Romanian monk once who told me, sadly, how when he first joined the monastery in Romania some of the older guys there were convinced that both Roman Catholicism and Protestantism were Satanic ... and that they only don't come out with those sort of accusations now because they've learned to button their lip - not because they've revised their opinions ...
But by and large, I've found those who DO believe themselves to be part of the One True Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church in a 'visible' sense aren't necessarily going around lamenting - or else rubbing their hands - that there are other people around who might not be part of it ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
OK listen, I'm unwell and tetchy. I'm not going to keep repeating myself - if you disagree than put up more of an argument than "In my experience x group of people are not like that". I've already agreed that practice on the ground varies. The point is about the official doctrine of the church, not how individual Roman Catholics treat other people.
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arse
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
I'm happy to be with the official doctrine of the RC Church that all who call on the name of Christ and many of those who would call on the name of Christ if they knew about it are part of the (one True) Church.
The Catholic church says that we have to love God and our neighbour as best we can, before we can achieve the bliss of Heaven.
Not everyone in the Church is guaranteed that salvation.Although it is given freely we have to accept Christ's offer, or at least not outrightly reject it.
Just being in the Church just means 'being in the Church'
There is a visible entity on earth which is known as the Catholic Church.
The largest single body of Christians are members
of that visible entity.Without spending too much time comparing numbers it does give the visible Catholic Church the right to speak for a large body of Christians.
But that visible entity recognises a much greater invisible entity,which we could call the 'One True'Church.
Just as mr cheesy is not concerned in any positive way with the claims of the Catholic Church (of which BTW the Church of England,claims to be an integral part,though separated from the visible form) I am neither worried nor depressed by the views of some of his Baptist Evangelical relatives. They are entitled to their views, just as I am entitled to mine.
The closer we come to Christ, the closer we come to each other.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Sorry, cross-posted with mr cheesy ...
Ok - fair enough, you've clarified your position but I still think you are missing some subtleties and nuance.
I apologise for my convoluted post but one of the reasons for that is that, by its very nature, this issue is so convoluted that it requires caveats and qualifications.
Which is what I was introducing - and admittedly in detriment to both written style and sense.
I s'pose the old Orthodox adage, 'We can say where the Church is, but not where it isn't ...' has to apply to any viewpoint that posits a 'visible' Church rather than - in Protestant terms - an 'invisible' one.
However we cut it, both ends of the spectrum seem to take a 'not all Israel are Israel' approach on this one.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
The closer we come to Christ, the closer we come to each other.
If you mean that the closer we get to Christ then the less we try to force other Christians to conform to our own understanding, then I agree.
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arse
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Count me as another one who isn't too interested in drawing lines.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
I should add that not only Catholics, not only Orthodox, not only Protestants of the more than 20000 stripes, not only Jews, not only Muslims, not only Hindus, not only Buddhists, but indeed ALL OF HUMANITY, we are children of God.
With a common father,no matter how we recognise Him or Her or Them,we are all brothers and sisters.
We are sometimes separated by language, by culture, but we have to try to work together,respecting our differences.
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
I'm glad we agree,mr cheesy,as I have no interest in trying to force you to my point of view.
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Doone
Shipmate
# 18470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
I should add that not only Catholics, not only Orthodox, not only Protestants of the more than 20000 stripes, not only Jews, not only Muslims, not only Hindus, not only Buddhists, but indeed ALL OF HUMANITY, we are children of God.
With a common father,no matter how we recognise Him or Her or Them,we are all brothers and sisters.
We are sometimes separated by language, by culture, but we have to try to work together,respecting our differences.
I totally agree
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I suspect all denominations have an element of heresy in them.
I seem to remember even Jesus Christ was found guilty of blasphemy by the institutional religious authorities of the time. Jesus the Heresiarch. Got an intriguing sort of ring to it.
That's an intriguing observation, Anselmina. But of course, there is a sense in which the religious authorities of His time were absolutley correct: anyone who claimed for Himself what Jesus did - that he was the Son of God (i.e., was Himself divine) - was gulity of the worst kind of heresy: blasphemy. Only, they forgot to include the caveat "unless such a person really is what he claimes to be." And, of course Jesus was, or rather, Is: "Before Abraham was, I AM".
As far as the Catholic Church is concerned, all those are Christians who are validly baptised. All those are heretics who hold to an opinion contrary to a defined teaching of the Catholic Church, but only some of those are heretics "proper". The distinction is drawn between those who happen to hold to an erroneous belief in ignorance of it being contrary to defined teaching (such are called "material" heretics) and those who in full knowledge of what the Church teaches propose something contrary to it (such are called "formal" heretics). To the extent to which you distance yourself from the teachings of the Church, to that extent you compromise your Christian identity. But the baptised are the baptised and there is a clear distinction drawn byt he Church between them and the non-Christian religions.
Now I know some of this won't jive with those who want to believe or to have others believe that the Catholic Church is way liberal on the whole who is and isn't a sound Christian thing, but I think it is essential that Catholics are just honest about this. It's our teaching and I think we have to own it, and not equivocate for the sake of getting along.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
What the article - and what I take to be the official RC position - seems to be saying is that Presbyterians and other Protestants might not be damned simply on account of not being members of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church - and if they are saved then in some sense they always were a member of that somehow - even without realising it - they would stand a better chance - as it were - if they were to unite themselves with Holy Church as the RCs see it.
As much as IngoB and I crossed swords, I will say this about missing him: when something like this came up, he would have the relevant paragraph(s) from the official RCC catechism to hand, and tell us what Mother Rome actually believes.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
It's one thing for us Protestants to wring our hands and bemoan Rome's position on this when our fellow co-religionists on the more conservative end are busily condemning to Hell anyone and everyone who doesn't hold to the same tenets as them or who hasn't prayed a particular prayer or believed in a particular way or given assent to this, that or the other set of propositions ... and so on and so forth ...
Or, in this country, who votes for the wrong political party.
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Understandably, perhaps, the RCC sees itself as fully encompassed by that phrase with occasional people within the faith but outwith of it. Evangelicals would in many cases not describe structures at all when talking about the True Church and some would describe the structures of the RCC as being the antithesis of the True Church.
So which one is really being uncharitable? The Catholic who sees Church as being hierarchical, and admits that people who are outwith the hierarchy may still be saved, or the Protestant who views Church as being coterminus with the Saved, and condemns the largest Christian body in the world wholesale to perdition? Hell, if "charitable" is too far a stretch, how about even "halfway realistic"?
quote:
As I also said previously. the practice on the ground may vary.
Would it not behoove one who is not familiar with the practice on the ground to paint with a narrower brush?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
OK listen, I'm unwell and tetchy. I'm not going to keep repeating myself - if you disagree than put up more of an argument than "In my experience x group of people are not like that". I've already agreed that practice on the ground varies. The point is about the official doctrine of the church, not how individual Roman Catholics treat other people.
Then read this: Lumen Gentium
Then this: Dominus Iesus
And then come back seeking clarification of terms and passages you don't understand. Then you will have a very reasonable appreciation of the Catholic Church's doctrine on the Church as currently expressed. At which point it may be appropriate to start to pick holes in it, disagree with it or accept joyfully and be welcomed in. 😉
[Link wasn't working - fixed. Oh, and welcome back ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif) - Eliab Purgatory host]
[ 12. March 2016, 07:46: Message edited by: Eliab ]
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