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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Was Christ's suffering really all that bad?
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Bibaculus
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# 18528
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Posted
When one suffers pain or trouble or betrayal, it is a commonplace to be told 'Well Christ suffered that, so he understands'. But what did Christ suffer?
The traditional narrative has Christ arrested on the Thursday evening and dead by the middle of Friday afternoon. Sure, crucifixion is a most horrible way to die, and being let down by your closest friends is awful. But it was all over in quite a brief period of time. Some people have been, and are, tortured to death for days or weeks.
Some people suffer mental or physical torments which seem to have no end. I knew someone who died of bone cancer, and was in pain which no medication could dull. I suspect he would happily have swapped it for 3 hours on a cross. I have never suffered too much physical pain, but I have suffered betrayals and the like (on two occasions of great pain and distress), which went on for months and years.
Unpleasant as it was, Christ's trial and crucifixion seems pretty tame in some ways. Certainly it was quite brief. Certainly one would expect something a bit more dramatic for the redemption of humanity.
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A jumped up pantry boy who never knew his place
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ExclamationMark
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# 14715
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Posted
"Behold the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world".
There was and is no torment that could compare to what Christ suffered on the Christ. Don't be too concerned about long it took - consider the nature of His suffering and sacrifice.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Bibaculus
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# 18528
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Posted
Stetson - Yes, Kingsley Amis clearly had the same thoughts. And I like the quote from Orwell; "I like the Church of England better than Our Lord."
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
There was and is no torment that could compare to what Christ suffered on the Christ. Don't be too concerned about long it took - consider the nature of His suffering and sacrifice.
Anything more than mere assertion to back that up?
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A jumped up pantry boy who never knew his place
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
1. The mental anguish must have been huge, not just from being betrayed. If we accept that Christ was human as well as divine, then there must have been the very real dreadfulness of knowing that he was being killed without just cause. Even in times when justice could be said to be arbitrary and punishment cruel, we know that injustice was felt keenly: so it must have been in the time of Christ.
2. The physical sufferings of people who are crucified are well documented. On the whole people slowly suffocate since it is very difficult to exhale with outstretched arms, plus his shoulders will have dislocated so the torso would have hung down unsupported. In addition, raised CO2 levels would have caused the body's tissues to become acidic and start to kill their own cells.
As if that weren't enough, nailing through the back of the heel (the most likely site) with the legs bent makes it virtually impossible for a person to raise themselves.
So, was the suffering that bad? (I can't believe you really asked that question.) I think we can safely say YES.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I don't think Jesus gets into a "Mine was bigger than yours" competition. And I don't think the magnitude of his sufferings (though horrible) had to be on some scale (what scale?) measurably worse than that of any other individual to make them effective, or important, or of unspeakable worth. Where did that idea come from?
He did what was necessary to redeem us all. It doesn't matter if there is some particular individual who has objectively experienced more pain, or deeper betrayal, or whatever (how would you measure it, anyway?) It's not a competition, and that person is not Christ, anyway. There is nothing set down in the Scriptures or the universe as far as I'm aware that says "He who suffers most, wins."
Now the question of the title--was it really all that bad--OH HELL YES. How can that even be asked with a straight face?
And it didn't start on Palm Sunday. Rather, long before, back in Bethlehem.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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Matt Black
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# 2210
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Posted
The spiritual anguish we can only guess at: bearing the sins of the world, being separated from the Father, etc.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
I would say, if God was born an infant, that would have been far, far harder than Christ's death. Knowing what human life is like - good and bad - and choosing to go through the incarnation is much more amazing than death on a cross (thousands and thousands of people were killed that way by the Romans, it would have been a most unremarkable occurrence)
[ 23. March 2016, 16:13: Message edited by: Boogie ]
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Garden. Room. Walk
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Bibaculus
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# 18528
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Posted
Yes, I am asking the question.
I am not suggesting it was a walk in the park, but how was it uniquely awful? And what does someone whose suffering lasts less than 24 hours have to say to someone whose suffering is protracted and seemingly without end. Read some of the accounts of torture in Chile under Pinochet, for example, or the British Army officer captured by the IRA in the 80s.
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A jumped up pantry boy who never knew his place
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Stetson
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# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibaculus:
Stetson - Yes, Kingsley Amis clearly had the same thoughts. And I like the quote from Orwell; "I like the Church of England better than Our Lord."
I'm wondering where Orwell said that. In his essay on Yeats, he talks about "the profound hostility" of fascism "to the Christian ethical code". Given Orwell's pretty uncompromising hatred of fascism, I'd conclude that he has a high opinion of the teachings of Jesus.
Though I suppose he might have meant that he was unimpressed by the supernatural aspects of the Jesus story. Still, the quote in question sounds a little too "folsky" for Orwell's typical style.
W.B. Yeats
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Beeswax Altar
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# 11644
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Posted
I ultimately agree with Exclamation Mark about Jesus taking the sins of the whole world. Think about the implications of what Jesus is saying when he asks why God has forsaken him. Boogie also makes an excellent point about the incarnation.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibaculus:
Yes, I am asking the question.
I am not suggesting it was a walk in the park, but how was it uniquely awful? And what does someone whose suffering lasts less than 24 hours have to say to someone whose suffering is protracted and seemingly without end. Read some of the accounts of torture in Chile under Pinochet, for example, or the British Army officer captured by the IRA in the 80s.
As always, I think Lamb answered this well. It's not a competition, and the efficacy of Christ's sacrifice is not dependent upon it being worse than anyone else's. Indeed, the "Jesus suffered so much worse than you" line of reasoning seems to set up a sort of blame-the-victim thing: you don't get to complain no matter how bad your suffering is because Jesus' was worse, so suck it up.
No. That's not the picture of Jesus we see in the gospels. He's not a "suck it up" kinda guy. He's not a "yeah, you think that's bad, wait'll you hear what happened/will happen to me..." kinda guy. He's the guy who healed all sorts of physical suffering. So, no, I don't think the point of Jesus' suffering was that we should just such it up and stop complaining about ours. And no, Jesus' suffering doesn't make mine or anyone else's less painful.
I think your question/ confusion is based on sloppy teaching on the church's part-- teaching a sort of default, unexamined penal substitutionary atonement in a "just so" matter does lend itself to this sort of quite reasonable question. But Scripture is much richer in the way it explains the atonement-- and exploring that richness really helps broaden the pov and get past this sorta thinking. In particular, ransom and Christus victor understandings of the atonement focus on the resurrection as much as the cross. Sure, an empty tomb doesn't make as snappy a symbol to hang around your neck-- but it is, after all, what Sunday's celebration is all about. And there the answer to the suffering of the world is not "mine was worse" but rather "I came to conquer sin and death"-- and along with that the hopeful anticipation that one day all suffering and death will finally be vanquished.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I come down on the personal side to this question. Not the questions as to whether flogging, mocking, crucifixion, psychological inevitability known in advance etc, are all as nasty as can be or not quite as nasty as some other deaths. But the question as to whether Jesus' life and death can be any guide, model and something I can identify with.
I wouldn't have understood this at all a decade ago: that to be really human is to suffer, and a person who has the role of supporting an empathizing with us has to have a real human understanding of it from experience -- a remarkable thing about the Jesus story is that he didn't get angry and nasty like I do with suffering and things that trigger me to recall suffering -- this is a core reason that I think the Christian story is worth something: we are shown how to live, suffer and die, and not revert to our selfish nasty nature. Whether or not we agree or disagree on the factual nature of the gospel/NT accounts of all of Jesus doings, i.e., the redemption, atonement, resurrection questions etc are not part of this in my thinking, and are separate issues.
I can accept the incarnational aspect of Jesus' suffering and dying as very useful myth and argue it as such because it juxtaposes the essential similarity between life and death.
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
I don't think you can weigh pain. To quote Solzhenitsyn, "to taste the sea only requires one gulp".
Christ is identified with all human suffering because He suffered.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Trickydicky
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# 16550
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Posted
The Bible doesn't seem to concentrate on the physical agony of Christ so much as the humiliation of the cross (Mel Gibson *please* take note).
And I have always been disturbed by the comment of the penitent thief in Luke '...we have been condemned justly, for we are getting what we deserve for our deeds'.
And whilst I'm talking about things in the passion that confuse me, why were the disciples carrying swords in the garden of Gethsemane?
But I will still be preaching the fact that the cross is central to our faith and salvation.
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If something's worth doing, its worth doing badly. (G K Chesterton)
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I don't think you can weigh pain. To quote Solzhenitsyn, "to taste the sea only requires one gulp".
Christ is identified with all human suffering because He suffered.
Quote stored. Very good!
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Galilit
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# 16470
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Posted
For me it is interesting to note that Jesus was relational to the last.
His address to the Daughters of Jerusalem, "Father forgive them...", his word to the thief, "Mother here is your son" etc. The only time he thought of himself was his statement "I am thirsty"
He never saw himself as really alone on the Cross.
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
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Bibaculus
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# 18528
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Posted
So is the point that Jesus was identifying with us, with our suffering; but that doesn't mean we have to identify with him and his suffering, or see his suffering as identifying with our suffering?
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A jumped up pantry boy who never knew his place
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rolyn
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# 16840
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Posted
Is the detailed nature of Christ's physical suffering really the central message? The Gospel accounts don't seem to bear that out. I think real emphasis is laid on the humility with which He faced/faces it.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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Bibaculus
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# 18528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Is the detailed nature of Christ's physical suffering really the central message? The Gospel accounts don't seem to bear that out. I think real emphasis is laid on the humility with which He faced/faces it.
I don't know. I guess what I was really questioning is how one is often told, when suffering, that Christ 'understands' because he suffered too. I have yet to hear anyone who is humble being told that Christ understands humility!
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A jumped up pantry boy who never knew his place
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Avila
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# 15541
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Posted
I have heard 'pastoral' comments as in the opening post. It is meant to offer reassurance that God understands. But it is deeply flawed.
There are plenty of things Jesus didn't experience in the incarnation, by being in a male body he didn't know pregnancy for one, and it is true his suffering was horrible but also true that others face a longer physical endurance of pain.
We need to step back from the direct comparisons and the need to match like for like. God understanding us and our needs/pains/struggles etc is not dependent on Jesus having had a comparable experience.
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http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Avila: God understanding us and our needs/pains/struggles etc is not dependent on Jesus having had a comparable experience.
Not for every specific experience perhaps, but the fact that He has been human is significant for me in this regard.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Avila
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# 15541
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Avila: God understanding us and our needs/pains/struggles etc is not dependent on Jesus having had a comparable experience.
Not for every specific experience perhaps, but the fact that He has been human is significant for me in this regard.
Agree, the incarnation, and the taste of human life and pain and joy is important. It just doesn't need to be a like for like experience.
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http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
Maybe it's just me, but it seems like asking "Surely being tortured to death isn't really all that bad?" is a sign of how degraded our discourse on subjects like this has become. If someone like John Yoo or Dick Cheney were to advance this argument, most of us would be appalled, and rightly so.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Avila: Agree, the incarnation, and the taste of human life and pain and joy is important. It just doesn't need to be a like for like experience.
We're in agreement.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Kwesi
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# 10274
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Posted
Croesus quote:
Maybe it's just me, but it seems like asking "Surely being tortured to death isn't really all that bad?" is a sign of how degraded our discourse on subjects like this has become.
Yup! That says it all for me, too! ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibaculus:
When one suffers pain or trouble or betrayal, it is a commonplace to be told 'Well Christ suffered that, so he understands'. But what did Christ suffer?
The traditional narrative has Christ arrested on the Thursday evening and dead by the middle of Friday afternoon. Sure, crucifixion is a most horrible way to die, and being let down by your closest friends is awful. But it was all over in quite a brief period of time. Some people have been, and are, tortured to death for days or weeks.
Some people suffer mental or physical torments which seem to have no end. I knew someone who died of bone cancer, and was in pain which no medication could dull. I suspect he would happily have swapped it for 3 hours on a cross. I have never suffered too much physical pain, but I have suffered betrayals and the like (on two occasions of great pain and distress), which went on for months and years.
Unpleasant as it was, Christ's trial and crucifixion seems pretty tame in some ways. Certainly it was quite brief. Certainly one would expect something a bit more dramatic for the redemption of humanity.
Keep an eye on YouTube over the next few days and you might get an answer...
Good Friday Crucifixion
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
Well Binaculus, are you volunteering to go through the experience Christ went through so we can judge how much you suffered? I think you've been watching too much of Life of Brian.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
Can anyone really watch too much Life of Brian?
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Avila:
I have heard 'pastoral' comments as in the opening post. It is meant to offer reassurance that God understands. But it is deeply flawed.
There are plenty of things Jesus didn't experience in the incarnation, by being in a male body he didn't know pregnancy for one, and it is true his suffering was horrible but also true that others face a longer physical endurance of pain.
We need to step back from the direct comparisons and the need to match like for like. God understanding us and our needs/pains/struggles etc is not dependent on Jesus having had a comparable experience.
That doesn't just relate to whether Jesus can sympathise with our suffering unless He suffered in exactly the same way. That notion undermines any sort of pastoral care we might offer others. Now, it is true that in the depths of our suffering we may turn to the people who come to sit beside us and declare "You can't help. You know nothing of what I'm suffering, you've never experienced this", and quite often they are right - we do not really know what they are suffering. That doesn't mean we can't say "You're right, I've never experienced what you are suffering. But, I've experienced something similar but not as bad. I've known others experience suffering in other ways. I can sit here silently and hold your hand knowing something of what you are going through".
The same is true of Jesus. He didn't experience every form of human suffering. He experienced enough to be qualified to know something about what we're going through and sit there holding our hand.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Can anyone really watch too much Life of Brian?
Only if it prevents you from watching too much Holy Grail.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I would say, if God was born an infant, that would have been far, far harder than Christ's death. Knowing what human life is like - good and bad - and choosing to go through the incarnation is much more amazing than death on a cross (thousands and thousands of people were killed that way by the Romans, it would have been a most unremarkable occurrence)
It's the unique nature of His crucifixion which makes the difference.
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
What was unique about it? Apart from Him?
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Love wins
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
It's the unique nature of His crucifixion which makes the difference.
Do you mean with relation to the fact he was carrying the sins of the world?
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arse
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Bibaculus
Shipmate
# 18528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
Well Binaculus, are you volunteering to go through the experience Christ went through so we can judge how much you suffered? I think you've been watching too much of Life of Brian.
No, I am not. But if you look at what I said, i suggested that there are people (like the person who dies of bone cancer) who would probably gladly swap their suffering for 3 hours on the cross.
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A jumped up pantry boy who never knew his place
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibaculus:
[T]here are people (like the person who dies of bone cancer) who would probably gladly swap their suffering for 3 hours on the cross.
The two experiences are simply not commensurable, even in some "hedonic calculus" reckoning - this kind of "swapping" isn't even meaningfully coherent. "Units of pain" are seldom comparable across different circumstances as there are so many things that make up the felt experience of them, things which have little to do with the pain itself.
And I must say that I find this kind of argumentative line deeply distasteful in this week of all weeks.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
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Athrawes
Ship's parrot
# 9594
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Posted
I am wondering why you seem to think it's a competition.
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Explaining why is going to need a moment, since along the way we must take in the Ancient Greeks, the study of birds, witchcraft, 19thC Vaudeville and the history of baseball. Michael Quinion.
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Maybe it's just me, but it seems like asking "Surely being tortured to death isn't really all that bad?" is a sign of how degraded our discourse on subjects like this has become. If someone like John Yoo or Dick Cheney were to advance this argument, most of us would be appalled, and rightly so.
Well, it isn't just you. Some comparisons really are just odious.
Sometimes it has seemed to me that our culture has an obsession with measuring as a vital and necessary part of our understanding. So I guess it's natural in that context to think that pain can be managed, measured, somehow objectivised. And in medical terms there is of course a real value in looking at the way our nervous systems work and how the experience of intolerable pain can be mitigated or even removed. Some marvellous work has been done in improving pain management for folks unfortunate enough to suffer from chronic, incurable and terminal illnesses which amongst other effects produce very great pain.
As a side issue, I found the comment on men and childbirth interesting. A few years ago I went through an awful six months before surgery, suffering from the pain caused by gallstones. When it struck, it was just intolerable. The agonising pain could last for a very long time, even strong painkillers could not remove it, it just had to be born. I was chatting it over with a good friend at church and observed that maybe I was just being a wimpy man; after all I'd never given birth to a child. She replied that she'd done that and had also had gallstones. Her observation was comforting. "Oh, in my experience, gallstone pain was just as painful as the pains of childbirth, but there was a good deal less point in it."
It helps to know folks who have walked the same journey, but folks can be empathic, supportive and helpful without having done that. And we all have different pain thresholds. Another reason not to make odious comparisons.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Sometimes it has seemed to me that our culture has an obsession with measuring as a vital and necessary part of our understanding. So I guess it's natural in that context to think that pain can be managed, measured, somehow objectivised. And in medical terms there is of course a real value in looking at the way our nervous systems work and how the experience of intolerable pain can be mitigated or even removed. Some marvellous work has been done in improving pain management for folks unfortunate enough to suffer from chronic, incurable and terminal illnesses which amongst other effects produce very great pain.
Well, sorry, that's the fault of those who want to paint the suffering of our Lord as the worst-possible thing that could happen to anyone ever, period. And those who seem to want to pointlessly fix their gaze on every blow (looking at you, Mel).
It is a simple fact that there are many who have experienced worse deaths - sadly many who have experienced worse deaths at the hand of Christians and the church.
Now I accept that there must have been a level of anguish normal people who were not the incarnate third-person of the Trinity could not have experienced during long drawn out torture. If that's the argument being made, then fine.
But if we're using language to imply that the physical anguish our Lord experienced was the ultimate in pain and suffering, then that's just wrong.
Which is not to say anything about Holy Week or the value of reflecting on the events or anything else. The suggestion that one should not be discussing this is pretty bonkers - if people reading this don't like it, then don't get involved in the discussion.
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arse
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
A few years ago I went through an awful six months before surgery, suffering from the pain caused by gallstones. When it struck, it was just intolerable. The agonising pain could last for a very long time, even strong painkillers could not remove it, it just had to be born. I was chatting it over with a good friend at church and observed that maybe I was just being a wimpy man; after all I'd never given birth to a child. S
I have had both (gallstones once and childbirth twice). The gallstone pain lasted about 4 hours each time then passed off. The childbirth pain lasted 20 hours each time, then sorted itself out. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
The gallstone pain was worse, far worse.
But, like you say, all these comparisons are quite pointless. Jesus suffered physically and mentally - of that there is no doubt.
He chose to suffer, he didn't have to go into Jerusalem. He chose to die as he knew very well that his teachings wouldn't be accepted and what the penalty would be. I expect he thought he'd die by stoning.
But I don't know why we major on His death. It's His birth which is the mindblowing, unbelievable thing imo.
I wish a symbol of torture wasn't the symbol of the Christian faith.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Alan Cresswell: The same is true of Jesus. He didn't experience every form of human suffering. He experienced enough to be qualified to know something about what we're going through and sit there holding our hand.
I see what you're getting at, but I'd like to go a bit further than that.
I'm rather taken up with the idea that every time we make someone suffer, God is there, suffering. I think this idea comes from Bonhoeffer? Or is it Moltmann?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
...the incarnate second person of the Trinity...
Sorry, slip of the keys.
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arse
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
...the incarnate second person of the Trinity...
Sorry, slip of the keys.
If the persons of the Trinity would just stay still instead of walking around all the time …
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
It's the unique nature of His crucifixion which makes the difference.
Do you mean with relation to the fact he was carrying the sins of the world?
Yes
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I expect he thought he'd die by stoning.
But I don't know why we major on His death. It's His birth which is the mindblowing, unbelievable thing imo.
I wish a symbol of torture wasn't the symbol of the Christian faith.
He knew what his death would be ("lifted up")
There's a lot of things in this world that aren't in line with what we want. The cross is one such. Yes his birth is mindblowing but without the cross his incarnation is meaningless. His birth on its own doesn't save us.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I expect he thought he'd die by stoning.
But I don't know why we major on His death. It's His birth which is the mindblowing, unbelievable thing imo.
I wish a symbol of torture wasn't the symbol of the Christian faith.
He knew what his death would be ("lifted up")
I would imagine the gospel writer back-wrote that bit in after the fact. (fulfilling prophesy and all that)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Alan Cresswell: The same is true of Jesus. He didn't experience every form of human suffering. He experienced enough to be qualified to know something about what we're going through and sit there holding our hand.
I see what you're getting at, but I'd like to go a bit further than that.
I'm rather taken up with the idea that every time we make someone suffer, God is there, suffering. I think this idea comes from Bonhoeffer? Or is it Moltmann?
Is it not the implicit in theism itself? As opposed to, say, deism?
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I expect he thought he'd die by stoning.
But I don't know why we major on His death. It's His birth which is the mindblowing, unbelievable thing imo.
I wish a symbol of torture wasn't the symbol of the Christian faith.
He knew what his death would be ("lifted up")
I would imagine the gospel writer back-wrote that bit in after the fact. (fulfilling prophesy and all that)
Why? Do you rule out in principle that Christ's death actually fulfilled the prophesy, and that He knew it would?
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
Why? Do you rule out in principle that Christ's death actually fulfilled the prophesy, and that He knew it would?
Yes I do. I don't believe in prophesy - it's no different from astrology imo - but that's a tangent too far from the OP and would require another thread, I would think.
[ 24. March 2016, 15:29: Message edited by: Boogie ]
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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