Ship of Fools: Christian Values (TM)

Thread: Christian Values (TM) Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Humble Servant (# 18391) on :

David Cameron, UK Prime Minister, defined Britain's "Christian Values" on Easter Sunday as:

quote:

responsibility, hard work, charity, compassion, pride in working for the common good, and honouring the social obligations we have to one another, to our families and to our communities

Would you agree that these values are Christian?
Are they exclusively Chirstian?
Do you have your own list of "Christian Values (TM)"

Posted by Komensky (# 8675) on :

I think we should be on guard against Cameron's political posturing. To paraphrase someone from another century, 'he has as much religion as a dog'.

K.

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :

Hmm, why is it that I find it so hard to trust politicians without looking for ulterior motives, such as wanting more volunteers to work for free?

The Christian values of loving God and one another have meant that people have struggled toward such progress as to provide good education and health care, clean water and provision of shelter and basic living needs for all. Yes, with benefits come responsibilities, and the idea that we should all work hard to provide them for the good of all comes in their wake.

But it's not duty but love which feeds Christian values.

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

No, those are the social values, admired by all of humanity. It is not difficult to find a Buddhist or Moslem who would agree with them, and you might even find practitioners among our close cousins, the chimpanzees and bonobos.

Posted by Humble Servant (# 18391) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
I think we should be on guard against Cameron's political posturing. To paraphrase someone from another century, 'he has as much religion as a dog'.

K.

Oh yes, and I have no wish to discuss on this thread whether his government live up to these or any other values. However, what he has said, he has said. I wanted to rant about how these are not Christian values at all. But some of them clearly are not bad values to live by. But to call them "Christian" rather than simply communal values (which is what he then went on to talk about, as though the two concepts were synonymous) struck me as a step too far.

Posted by Bibaculus (# 18528) on :

I think in western society these are values which have roots in Christianity. That is not to say that they are not found in other societies which have not emerged from western Christendom, or that they are exclusively Christian values.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

Funnily enough, I would interpret some of those things he includes as meaning we should all pay enough into the social kitty to make sure that all of the community can live with dignity. I.e. tax fairly. Make sure austerity does not result in sickness and death.

Not sure whether these are Christian values or not, but they sure aren't practiced in his circles.

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :

Charity is perhaps more Christian and Muslim and Jewish than pagan (by which I mean Roman and Greek pagan). Compassion is presumably universal, but isn't I think as important a concept in Roman and Greek ethics.
Otherwise, yes, they're pretty universal.

I suppose none of them are values of the current government. To that extent he's correct.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

Christian values:
Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength.
Love your neighbour as yourself.

All the rest is commentary.

And, those are not exclusive to Christianity either. For a start, they come from the Jewish part of our Bible. And, I suspect Islam has something similar. And, all mainstream faiths have a form of loving your neighbour.

As for Cameron, he can state a set of commonly held social values that are consistent with the Christian faith as much as he likes. I would like it if his government managed to enact even one policy that supports his words.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Heheheheh. Christian values. The only one I can think of that puts us in sharp distinction from the rest of this culture is the one that says God comes first, not country or family or self or work. Which causes outraged arguments when non-believers come up against it in practice for the first time, as it's so "unnatural" and "unpatriotic."

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

It always irritates me when any group attempts to claim values for themselves which are fundamentally part of human nature.
So much so, that those who abuse those ideals use language and propaganda to justify the abuse.
But whatever the source, I would prefer a government who worked towards those ideals to a PM who merely speaks them at politically opportune moments.

BTW, "responsibility" and "hard work" are typically conservative code for denying support to the poor and vulnerable. Hardly Christian values.

Posted by Humble Servant (# 18391) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Heheheheh. Christian values. The only one I can think of that puts us in sharp distinction from the rest of this culture is the one that says God comes first, not country or family or self or work. Which causes outraged arguments when non-believers come up against it in practice for the first time, as it's so "unnatural" and "unpatriotic."

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

It doesn't separate us from any Muslim I know, or orthodox Jew, or Sikh. I doubt any of my Hindu colleagues would accept an infringement on their devotion either.

Posted by earrings (# 13306) on :

Christian values must surely begin with love of God and neighbour. They should include justice and righteousness and care for the widow, orphan and refugee. Not all of these seem central to government policy.

Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :

Cameron extolled as Christian...

quote:
pride in working for the common good, and honouring the social obligations we have to one another, to our families and to our communities

Granted, I have only lived in one western country and one non-western one. But I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that, in much of the non-western world, "the west" is associated far more with rampant individualism, rather than with commitment to family and community. At least, relative to the Muslim, Hindu, Confucuian etc nations.

And I don't think it's too much of a stretch to also define "the west" as being a Christian club. Even if that runs aground a bit with Latin America and other Catholic-but-arguably non-western bastions, I'd say the overlap is certainly present in the UK and those nations descended from it culturally and politically.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Christian values:
Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength.
Love your neighbour as yourself.

All the rest is commentary.

This is pretty much spot on, of course. I would probably paraphrase that this means God - not yourself or money - is the primary call on our life. And that we should care for other people, look after others, especially those in need.

Maybe more importantly, we do this because other people are made in the image of God, because they are human and have human rights (not legal rights assured by the ECHR, but rights as God-loved human beings).

Do these match up with

quote:

responsibility, hard work, charity, compassion, pride in working for the common good, and honouring the social obligations we have to one another, to our families and to our communities

Well, partially. These are phrased more as social requirements. The real problems come when you look at how this government has lived up to this standard - because the government also has a responsibility to abide by this standard, not just individuals.

Have they been responsible, supported hard work, been charitable, compassionate, honoured the implicit social contract to the nation? No. Not even close. Not even a little bit.

So there is another aspect of Christian Values that is about not being a lying, manipulative, deceitful piece of shit.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

Today I looked up the Ahmaddiyya Muslim beliefs, because of the man killed in Glasgow, possibly for holding them. I was looking for the quote on their mosque near Hither Green "Love for All, Hatred for None" and found this as well, a quote from their founder.

quote:
There are only two complete parts of faith. One is to love God and the other is to love mankind to such a degree that you consider the suffering and the trials and tribulations of others as your own and that you pray for them.

Not that different from the Hillel summary which Jesus quoted, is it?

Posted by Jack o' the Green (# 11091) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Not that different from the Hillel summary which Jesus quoted, is it?

Jesus didn't quote Hillel. Hillel's command was in a negative form i.e. "What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbour."

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

David Cameron and the rest of the Cabinet ought to reflect on his statement and ask themselves "In what ways are our policies aligned with these values?"

Then again, I'm old-fashioned and I don't equate economic obligations with social ones.

Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on :

quote:

You have heard it said love you neighbour and hate your enemy but I tell you love your enemy and pray for those who persecute you

Jengie

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

I think the problem is, Cameron sees these "Christian Values" as something that other people should abide by. "You be good, submissive Christian people. We can't because we have difficult decisions to make because we run the country, but if you are good and Christian, it will all be OK".

And yes, it is patronising, patriarchal, demeaning, and not unlike some in the church have behaved. Of course it isn't Christian, it is abusive and controlling.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jack o' the Green:

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Not that different from the Hillel summary which Jesus quoted, is it?
Jesus didn't quote Hillel. Hillel's command was in a negative form i.e. "What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbour."

Maybe I was wrong to attribute what I was thinking of to Hillel, though I would be surprised if he did not teach it.

I was thinking of the joining together of Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18 as the summary of the Law.

And Hillel's command, I have always thought, is much more sensible than doing to others what you would they would do to you, because you might like something others thought utterly hateful.

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:

quote:

You have heard it said love you neighbour and hate your enemy but I tell you love your enemy and pray for those who persecute you
Jengie

THAT'S it Jengie. That's THE distinct Christian value. One that no denominational leader and NONE of their acolytes unconditionally proclaims. No, not ONE.

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:

quote:

You have heard it said love you neighbour and hate your enemy but I tell you love your enemy and pray for those who persecute you
Jengie

I volunteer to imperil my immortal soul and hate Cameron on behalf of anyone who wants to, but thinks they shouldn't.

And if God doesn't sentence him to at least a million years in purgatory, I volunteer to hold the bugger over a fire myself.

All self sacrifice, that's me.

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

I'll 'old yer coat.

Posted by Russ (# 120) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Humble Servant:
Would you agree that these values are Christian?
Are they exclusively Chirstian?

No, they're not exclusively Christian, and that's the point.

Britain is now a pluralist society. This is trying to be a list that both reflects Britain's Christian heritage and represents something that all the Hindus and Muslims can buy into.

Try reading it as targeted at immigrants.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
Try reading it as targeted at immigrants.

Yep. We, in Britain have values derived from our Christian heritage that you will recognise as compatible with your own beliefs. You can come here and make your home among people who don't think very much more differently than you.

But, only if you make the grade to pass through the eye of a needle because we don't actually want any of you here. Unless, of course, you can earn loadsamoney and make donations to the Conservative Party.

[read the above assuming a level of irony that is off the far end of the scale]

Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
I think we should be on guard against Cameron's political posturing. To paraphrase someone from another century, 'he has as much religion as a dog'.

K.

To quote someone else from another century, "I would not open windows into men's souls".

You are free to criticise his politics all you like, but you don't have the faintest idea of his religious status or degree.

Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Cameron extolled as Christian...

quote:
pride in working for the common good, and honouring the social obligations we have to one another, to our families and to our communities
Granted, I have only lived in one western country and one non-western one. But I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that, in much of the non-western world, "the west" is associated far more with rampant individualism, rather than with commitment to family and community. At least, relative to the Muslim, Hindu, Confucuian etc nations.

I worked in India for seven years, and whatever the faults of the West, and the very valid questions which can be raised about its "Christian values", I wouldn't be getting too starry-eyed about the superiority of Hindu or Muslim societies.

Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:

quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Cameron extolled as Christian...

quote:
pride in working for the common good, and honouring the social obligations we have to one another, to our families and to our communities
Granted, I have only lived in one western country and one non-western one. But I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that, in much of the non-western world, "the west" is associated far more with rampant individualism, rather than with commitment to family and community. At least, relative to the Muslim, Hindu, Confucuian etc nations.
I worked in India for seven years, and whatever the faults of the West, and the very valid questions which can be raised about its "Christian values", I wouldn't be getting too starry-eyed about the superiority of Hindu or Muslim societies.

Just FTW, I'm not getting starry-eyed about anything. Mostly, I'm talking about perceptions, specifically, the one held by many non-westerners that the West is more individualisitic.

I will observe that that that perception also seems to be held by the Koreans I know who have lived in both cultures. But even if it's true, it doesn't neccessarily make one culture better than the other.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Kaplan Corday: You are free to criticise his politics all you like, but you don't have the faintest idea of his religious status or degree.

By their fruits shall ye know them.

Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Granted, I have only lived in one western country and one non-western one. But I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that, in much of the non-western world, "the west" is associated far more with rampant individualism, rather than with commitment to family and community. At least, relative to the Muslim, Hindu, Confucuian etc nations.

I see your point but I think there is a bit of a difference between Northern and Southern Europe.

(I recall one Shipmate, sadly no longer posting, whose wife is Spanish, and who commented that at their wedding his family was about a dozen people and hers was over a hundred.)

Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:
Kaplan Corday: You are free to criticise his politics all you like, but you don't have the faintest idea of his religious status or degree.
By their fruits shall ye know them.

Which simply means that you disagree with his politics within the relatively narrow parameters of western liberal democracy.

I don't like the political views of many other figures who identified as Christian, such as Luther and Calvin, but to jump from there to the conclusion that they therefore had "as much religion as a dog" seems curious.

(And why dogs of all things? I've known some wonderful dogs. If Wesley was right, we are going to share heaven with them).

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Kaplan Corday: Which simply means that you disagree with his politics within the relatively narrow parameters of western liberal democracy.

I disagree with his politics within the parameters of him fucking up a lot of people. (FWIW I'm not that great a fan of Luther and Calvin either.)

Far be it from me to decide who's a Christian or not, but I strongly object to notions that decouple people's faith from their actions. "He's doing many bad things but in his heart he still may be a Christian" is dangerous bullshit to me.

Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on :

I think the major problem with talking about “Christian values” in society is that the Kingdom of God is supposed to be an inside-out thing. As individuals are transformed, we become more loving, selfless etc. which I would hope makes us better citizens. Or at least that’s the theory.

This is a rather different proposition to trying to impose values of industriousness and responsibility on society as a whole from the top down.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Whether or not you have a point about Mr Cameron is irrelevant unless you are prepared to look at other politicians who tried to claim that Christianity informed their political actions - for example Gordon Brown, Tony Blair, Frank Dobson, Tony Benn.

With those names in mind read: banking regulation chaos, government profligacy; Iraq War to please his friend GWB; shafting of colleagues (particular Alan Milburn), occupation of social housing while on 6 figure ministerial salary, opposition to transparency over MPs expenses; creation of Civil Nuclear Constabulary, which has unlimited powers of entry and search without warrants, hypocrisy in shunning title but keeping multi-million fortune (part of inheritance with title) in Swiss Bank account when other UK citizens were restricted to £50 traveling money.

By all means criticise Mr Cameron's actions, but don't presume about his faith: I've met many "Christian Socialists" (family member one of their luminaries) and you'd have to travel for a long time to find a more concentrated group of holier-than-thou hypocrites.

Posted by Humble Servant (# 18391) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
politicians who tried to claim that Christianity informed their political actions

I think there's a difference between faith informing one's political actions, and making presumptuous statements about the values that our society embodies as a whole.

Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on :

Currently watching a phone-in on morning television where disabled people are discussing the PIP/DLA debacle and losing their mobility aids due to government cuts, including mobility aids for disabled children. I am doing this while trying to track down particular mental health services for myself in my area, which I can't do because mental health services have been cut to the bone - despite my condition being severe and needing urgent care.

I am a leftist anarchist, no lover of central government in any form and there have been many examples of wrongdoing by Labour governments. This is not about left v right for me - there are many Conservatives who deplore the way this government is targeting the poor and the disabled and the vulnerable. I think it is perfectly appropriate to question how politicians who claim to be Christians treat 'the least of these' - Blair viewed Iraqi civilians as disposable. Cameron seems to view the poor as disposable. IDS apparently viewed the disabled and unemployed as disposable. Osborne views anyone who isn't also homo reptilia as disposable. Of course Christians should critique any of the above as not being compatible with Christianity, because it's not - we can't just criticise buffoons like Trump when our politicians are cut from the same cloth.

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

What are "Values" other than some one stating this, this and this is good and valuable while something else is not. I mean take the work ethic, who actually said digging a hole and filling it in again is good and valuable as opposed to sitting under a bush watching the clouds being less valuable?
Presumably it is the cultures and societies which promote hard work and dedication which come to conquer and dominate those that do not. Therefore the narrative.

Surprised Mr.C didn't add 'fight the good fight' to his list of Christian values. This July 1st will serve a salutary reminder of two hard working Christian Nations going head to head serving the great values .

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