Ship of Fools: Offering in the plate versus direct debit.

Thread: Offering in the plate versus direct debit. Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Dennis the Menace (# 11833) on :

I have been using direct debit for my weekly offering for the past 6 months as it is convenient and I had been away overseas for 7 weeks and didn't want to have to catch up. A week or two ago one member of our congregation stated in passing that the money given in this way has not been 'blessed' in the same way it should if it were placed in the plate on Sunday.

What are your thoughts?

Posted by churchgeek (# 5557) on :

I'd say the money physically offered at the altar is blessed on behalf of all the money given to the church. If the church worried about this, they wouldn't give the option of direct payments!

Posted by Sparrow (# 2458) on :

So what? The insurance, gas, water, electricity companies etc who will be paid out of that money will not care if it is blessed or not!

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis the Menace:
I have been using direct debit for my weekly offering for the past 6 months as it is convenient and I had been away overseas for 7 weeks and didn't want to have to catch up. A week or two ago one member of our congregation stated in passing that the money given in this way has not been 'blessed' in the same way it should if it were placed in the plate on Sunday.

What are your thoughts?

I pray for everything that's been given in the last week towards God's service. (That includes DD's too - God made them as well).

No issue here. [Smile]

[ 25. July 2015, 06:54: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

Does the same stickler for details count paper money? Does it have to be gold or silver to be blessed?

Posted by Dennis the Menace (# 11833) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Does the same stickler for details count paper money? Does it have to be gold or silver to be blessed?

Not sure. She tends to be a bit anal, was a happy clapper in her early years and seems to need to be involved with all activities, mostly self appointed!!

I have no problem with using DD, was her comment that prompted me to ask others.

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis the Menace:
A week or two ago one member of our congregation stated in passing that the money given in this way has not been 'blessed' in the same way it should if it were placed in the plate on Sunday.

What are your thoughts?

Quite right. Nobody gets to see it, it's "virtual" money - just points of lights on a screen and units on a bank statement. But does it need to be blessed? It's a donation.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

Most churches I have been involved in have had less than 10% of money "in the plate".

Maybe that explains something.

Actually, passing the plate is an aggressive and rather off-putting strategy (for newcomers). The symbolic offering of the plate is about acknowledging that all of the resources to run a church come from God's people, and giving thanks for them. I am sure, in the days when DDs were not thought of, the money that was given at times other than in the service was also blessed.

And passing the plate is, of course, not in the bible.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

One person in our church made a big fuss about the symbol of money being offered up together with the bread, wine and water.

As a result, someone had the idea of lamimnated little cards/tokens to be placed in the plate with the words 'I have given by standing order'.

I think it is daft.

Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :

Seems dumb, I think the plate is the problem - using a bag removes the opportunity for people to be tempted to judge others. Direct debit givers strongly concerned about the symbolism can always drop in a penny.

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

There is a teaching that says that things are blessed by being used for their intended purpose, (for God, of course).

Money given by DD is blessed when it is used to pay the light bill.

I like putting money in the plate because of what it symbolizes to me. I don't care what other people do.

Moo

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
One person in our church made a big fuss about the symbol of money being offered up together with the bread, wine and water.

As a result, someone had the idea of lamimnated little cards/tokens to be placed in the plate with the words 'I have given by standing order'.

I think it is daft.

That was advised at my last church by the diocese. They were never used.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

I like the idea of putting in a symbolic penny, if it really bothers you: but I don't think it matters.
Actually in the CofE at least the collection was not, originally, intended to be for the upkeep of the church (endowments were for that), but for alms. Of course, that's long gone.

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

Weekly donation in any form doesn't work for us. I give 2 lump sums per year. Weekly works if you're salaried. I think the point is to give at all.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

Some of our members who give by SO and DD feel so embarrassed when the offering bag comes round that they feel obliged to put in a little "something". We've told them that they needn't do so. (In fact, as we use bags rather than plates, there's nothing to stop them just pretending to put something in!)

When I served in West Africa, the offerings took ages because some people put in money and took change. One hopes that what they took out was less than what went in!

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis the Menace:
A week or two ago one member of our congregation stated in passing that the money given in this way has not been 'blessed' in the same way it should if it were placed in the plate on Sunday.

If he or she is worried about the physical cash being blessed, that's not what the church spends - the church hands that cash to its bankers, where it passes back into general circulation, and writes cheques on its bank account.

My giving is automatic and monthly, and I don't feel the need to put a token in the plate when it passes.

Posted by Japes (# 5358) on :

I give by standing order and will continue to do so as long as I am an organist. I am otherwise occupied when the offertory is happening and most people in my church know better than to disrupt an organist at work...

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
I like the idea of putting in a symbolic penny, if it really bothers you: but I don't think it matters.

Judging by their groans when I present them with the piggy banks the kids have been using to raise $$ for world relief, I'm guessing it matters to the volunteers charged with counting and depositing the weekly proceeds...

Posted by HCH (# 14313) on :

Why pay any attention to such comments?

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

We've just had a stewardship drive and have been asked, if at all possible, to give by direct debit - for ease of administration and improved administration of Gift Aid. This means that the church ultimately gets more money without the individual needing to put more in. There was also an option to automatically link giving to inflation, if the donor wishes.

The scheme is called The Parish Giving Scheme, if anyone would like to read up about it. I understand it is being rolled out to CofE parishes a few at a time, with the intention that it will be available everywhere eventually.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Japes:
I give by standing order and will continue to do so as long as I am an organist. I am otherwise occupied when the offertory is happening and most people in my church know better than to disrupt an organist at work...

Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on :

Our church no longer has a collection, as almost all donations are via DD and the collection baskets were virtually empty. We don't expect visitors to donate (and this was always stated when there were collections) so there seemed little point in continuing to have a collection. Being an independent church, we don't usually formally bless collections anyway, though sometimes thanksgiving prayers are said for special collections (which we can also DD for).

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
We've just had a stewardship drive and have been asked, if at all possible, to give by direct debit - for ease of administration and improved administration of Gift Aid. This means that the church ultimately gets more money without the individual needing to put more in. There was also an option to automatically link giving to inflation, if the donor wishes.

The scheme is called The Parish Giving Scheme, if anyone would like to read up about it. I understand it is being rolled out to CofE parishes a few at a time, with the intention that it will be available everywhere eventually.

We have something very similar here in Wales. It seems to work quite well: the Representative Body (i.e. provincial HQ) administers it for the whole province. I used it until my income dropped and, ceasing to be a taxpayer, I could no longer Gift Aid my donations.

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Some of our members who give by SO and DD feel so embarrassed when the offering bag comes round that they feel obliged to put in a little "something". We've told them that they needn't do so. (In fact, as we use bags rather than plates, there's nothing to stop them just pretending to put something in!)

When I served in West Africa, the offerings took ages because some people put in money and took change. One hopes that what they took out was less than what went in!

Not just in West Africa, in my student days at Trinity College Dublin in the 1970s, a prominent academic, who had just read the lesson, put in a pound note and took 50p out. While I kept a straight face during this, during the coffee hour I heard him complain to another Fellow that the problem with decimalization was that one could no longer just put a ten-shilling note on the plate.

A now-deceased Missourian of my acquaintance, a son of the manse, told me of once hearing a Holiness preacher who advised the congregation that he did not want to hear the devil's hooves jangling in the plate, just the gentle rustle of the angels' wings.

But to the OP: in Anglican outlets in Canada (and I have seen similar proceedings in UCC and Presbyterian franchises) the offerings get blessed in toto, and without reference to format. As my libertarian friends would say, it is all fiat money anyway, without intrinsic value (unless one is dropping gold coins on the plate). Many churches now have the plate at the entrance on a stand with the wine cruets and the bread box (forgotten the ecclesiastical name), and we are spared the change fumbling and plate passing during the service.

[ 25. July 2015, 21:47: Message edited by: Augustine the Aleut ]

Posted by Cathscats (# 17827) on :

I have never thought of an offertory prayer as "blessing" the gifts, actual or virtual. We tend to give thanks and ask God to help us use it for His kingdom.

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

Pre-Authorized Remittance (as it is called in the UCCan) provides donors with a business card to put in the plate to say they made a PAR donation.

As my Anglican friends have informed me that the Anglicans and Presbyterians outsource their PAR plans to the UCCan (in other words, we rent out our clerks and send them the forms) I would trust the same facility is available in those shacks.

I have been called in to count the offering a few times (that church did it on Monday) and the actual revenue from the plate is quite small. It's donor cheques and PAR that haul the freight.

Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :

If I don't write a cheque, I put a fiver in the plate at weekend masses. My parish does offer electronic contributions, but I think that is too impersonal and I like writing cheques as they have duplicates that I leave in the book so I always know how much I've donated!

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
One person in our church made a big fuss about the symbol of money being offered up together with the bread, wine and water.

As a result, someone had the idea of lamimnated little cards/tokens to be placed in the plate with the words 'I have given by standing order'.

I think it is daft.
That was advised at my last church by the diocese. They were never used.

We have those available for people who want them - they say "Please bless the gift I have given by standing order". There are some for whom it is important and it seems a relatively simple thing to do to help someone feel their gift is valued.

Posted by Galloping Granny (# 13814) on :

Friends and fellows, most of whom give by DD, tend to put a gold coin into the offering bag as a symbolic gesture.
Or as a lesson for the kids, since one youngster (now an ordained clergyman) once told his mother he didn't see why he should put a coin in the offering when Mr X didn't 'and he's rich' (Mr X, a lawyer, was probably one of our more well-to-do members).

GG

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

Paying by check once a month works best for me. I do feel that using checks or direct debits is more secure -- loose cash has been known to "disappear" from collection plates before it has a chance to get to the bank at various churches.

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
Why pay any attention to such comments?

Assuming that's a response to my remark about the groans of volunteers who count the plate offerings/ kids collections upon being presented with piles of pennies... They really are rather light hearted, and that's all I meant to convey. They aren't asking us to stop having the kids save up their pennies and bring them in for world relief. Although to be fair, volunteers are volunteers-- we ought to honor and respect their time and effort as much as we do any other use of resources. Counting pennies is time-consuming for very little material benefit, so it bears considering whether it's a good use of their time. With the kids' banks for world relief, everyone (including our money-counters) have agreed it's worth the effort for the pedagogical benefit it has in teaching the kids about giving. The question here was whether the symbolic benefit of dropping a penny in the offering plate to represent your DD is similarly worth the effort of counting all those pennies.

Although upon reflection perhaps the pennies don't need to be counted, but instead could simply be scooped up and put in a bowl in the narthex in a sort of "give a penny/ take a penny" way to be used from week-to-week similar to the business cards others have suggested.

Posted by The Intrepid Mrs S (# 17002) on :

For the very first time, tonight I heard a visiting preacher bless the electronic donations as well as those actually in the plate, which made me wonder if he'd been reading this thread?!

Mrs. S, looking nervously over her shoulder [Eek!]

Posted by Galloping Granny (# 13814) on :

I was talking $2 coins rather than 'pennies'. But then, we're a small congregation with few children.

GG

Posted by Galloping Granny (# 13814) on :

PS

And then, at the end of the tax year those whose giving is recorded get a receipt which, along with other charitable donations, entitles us to a 33% refund – and some of us immediately pass this on to church funds. As I make jellies to sell for Cristian World Service, I see the refund as covering the cost of sugar etc.

GG

Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on :

I usually write a cheque. They are still quite widely used here. It means there are no banking charges for me or the church, and the money can be traced back to me so I can offset it against tax. I don't give for the purpose of getting a tax break, but it is a nice plus. Cash can't be traced.

Posted by Sipech (# 16870) on :

I object to direct debits as then the person/church/company taking the funds has the control over it. I much prefer standing orders where I can say how much and when the payment is made. Cheques can be a pain as you never know when they'll be cashed.

I've done cash-counting a lot, but never been in charge of the church finances. As a chartered accountant, it causes me pain as to how ineptly our finances are handled. They have no understanding of the accruals principle, so record as income in one financial year the cash received as deposits for an event happening in the next financial year. [Waterworks]

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

Change is often a problem in Brazilian shops. I admit that I sometimes use the collection plate to change a R$ 100 (€ 30) note [Hot and Hormonal]

Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis the Menace:
one member of our congregation stated in passing that the money given in this way has not been 'blessed' in the same way it should if it were placed in the plate on Sunday.

What are your thoughts?

I think you should have told her that you were trying to follow Jesus' directive in Matthew 6, that says when you give, don't let the left hand know what the right hand is doing. DD is much closer to giving in secret than flopping a big bill in the plate.

Posted by Jammy Dodger (# 17872) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Intrepid Mrs S:
For the very first time, tonight I heard a visiting preacher bless the electronic donations as well as those actually in the plate, which made me wonder if he'd been reading this thread?!

Mrs. S, looking nervously over her shoulder

Yes I've heard someone in a service, during the offering, say something along the lines of: " and for all of you giving by standing order just pause for a moment and think of that money leaving your account - that is still your act of giving even if you haven't put something in the bag this morning"

That was a few months back so pretty sure they hadn't been reading this thread [Smile]

Posted by Lord Jestocost (# 12909) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Intrepid Mrs S:
For the very first time, tonight I heard a visiting preacher bless the electronic donations as well as those actually in the plate, which made me wonder if he'd been reading this thread?!

I was just thinking that it would surely only require a small extra line in the liturgy. "All things come from you and of your own do we give you, of your own does the church debit us directly, and of your own does the government reimburse us for tax paid where applicable."

You could then add a prayer to bless all the electromagnetic forces and sparkly little electrons that allow this to happen.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

And a competition to set it to music for those of us who like to intone.

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
One person in our church made a big fuss about the symbol of money being offered up together with the bread, wine and water.

As a result, someone had the idea of lamimnated little cards/tokens to be placed in the plate with the words 'I have given by standing order'.

I think it is daft.

We have those. I hadn't thought of the blessing angle- I just thought it was so that others saw a show of support, or so the giver didn't worry that he looked like a cheapskate by letting the plate go by.

I would set up for direct debit, and in fact I have asked the stewardship committee multiple times to contact me, but I still haven't gotten a call. At least having offered, I don't feel bad if my pledge comes in a week late.

Posted by Wet Kipper (# 1654) on :

Are there churches that do actual Direct debit, where it's the church taking the money from your account,(after filling in a form) or are we all really meaning a Standing Order where we choose a regular amount to give?

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Wet Kipper:
Are there churches that do actual Direct debit, where it's the church taking the money from your account,(after filling in a form) or are we all really meaning a Standing Order where we choose a regular amount to give?

Our church encourages some kind of electronic withdrawal thing (can't remember what it's called - still don't fully understand US banking) where it's the church taking the money. I don't do that - I tell my bank to make an automatic monthly payment (ie. basically a standing order). In practice, this means that once a month, my bank prints out a check and mails it to the church.

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Wet Kipper:
Are there churches that do actual Direct debit, where it's the church taking the money from your account,(after filling in a form) or are we all really meaning a Standing Order where we choose a regular amount to give?

I believe mine does the first, but as I said, despite multiple requests that they contact me to get set up with direct debit, I haven't heard anything, so I can't tell you for sure.

-Og, whose phone, electric, and water bill would be late every month but for the wonders of autopay.

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
I was talking $2 coins rather than 'pennies'. But then, we're a small congregation with few children.

GG

Albertus had earlier suggested a penny. But again, my comment was an offhand one, not intended to be taken so seriously. This ain't hell!

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lord Jestocost:

quote:
Originally posted by The Intrepid Mrs S:
For the very first time, tonight I heard a visiting preacher bless the electronic donations as well as those actually in the plate, which made me wonder if he'd been reading this thread?!
I was just thinking that it would surely only require a small extra line in the liturgy. "All things come from you and of your own do we give you, of your own does the church debit us directly, and of your own does the government reimburse us for tax paid where applicable."

You could then add a prayer to bless all the electromagnetic forces and sparkly little electrons that allow this to happen.

O Lord, we beseech thee mercifully to hear us; and guide us that we, to whom thou hast given an infinite number of pixels, may so direct them to assemble in godly order so as to support the ministries of thy Church; and by thy mighty aid be directed to your coffers and not to the treasuries of Nigerian princes, through....

Posted by Banner Lady (# 10505) on :

It took me a long while to get over the feeling of not contributing properly when the offering plate went past without me putting anything into it.

This despite the fact that our household tithes, with the money going in a number of different charitable directions via electronic transfer, and I volunteer much of my time to church (not specifically parish) related activities.

I figure God knows what is going on, even if the sides people and clergy think I'm a bit of a freeloader. TP will always use the collection time to disappear to the loo. I'm sure that is noticed, too!

Posted by Dennis the Menace (# 11833) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Wet Kipper:
Are there churches that do actual Direct debit, where it's the church taking the money from your account,(after filling in a form) or are we all really meaning a Standing Order where we choose a regular amount to give?

Sorry, my mistake. I meant standing order, that is what I use but our church will direct debit but it is a pain in the a.. to set up.

Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis the Menace:
I have been using direct debit for my weekly offering for the past 6 months as it is convenient and I had been away overseas for 7 weeks and didn't want to have to catch up. A week or two ago one member of our congregation stated in passing that the money given in this way has not been 'blessed' in the same way it should if it were placed in the plate on Sunday.

What are your thoughts?

Show her the ending checking acct balance on the bank statement and ask her to state what percentage of the total consists of non-blessed money.

That person seems to be one who is on the prowl to find things to get all bent out of shape over.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

Well, however people are giving it, it seems to be working.... https://www.churchofengland.org/media-centre/news/2015/07/almost-%C2%A31billion-sets-new-record-for-church-of-england-parish- giving.aspx#.VbuDeqmIlLR.twitter

Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on :

All this talk of blessing the cash makes me wonder: should we be blessing the givings or the givers? Or is the giver already blessed through his/her action?

Posted by The Intrepid Mrs S (# 17002) on :

We have always given through the bank account, so that we save on trying to find cash on a Sunday morning or writing endless cheques, and so that the church knows what to expect. Now, however, as non-tax-payers, it seems the church would be better off if we gave cash (no bigger than a £20 note, mind!) as they can claim Gift Aid on cash donations up to a certain level. Who knew? (not me, obviously!)

Mrs. S, always eager to spread good news [Yipee]

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