Ship of Fools: Coffee freaks

Thread: Coffee freaks Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

I am not a coffee snob, but I do appreciate nice coffee. I do drink instant, but prefer freshly brewed. I recently stocked up with more coffee for my (stove top) espresso machine, and accidentally bought beans not ready ground.

So I wanted to look for a grinder, and get some advice on coffee grinders. Then I entered a world of geekdom I would rather not know existed.

Apparently, hand grinders are no good. this is not because they are hard work, but because you cannot grind the coffee fast enough. 45s apparently is the most that you should wait between grinding and brewing.

Of course, my espresso maker is not really such, because the pressure it generates is actually not high enough for proper espresso. Its just strong coffee instead.

So there is talk about spending $200-300 on a grinder. Because anything less than that will not get you a proper grind. And what is that if you are spending $800 on an espresso machine anyway?

I don't spend that much on coffee - equipment, ground coffee, everything put together. That much would last me a year or more. And I know that some people would consider $1000 far too cheap for producing their coffee.

Has the world gone COMPLETELY mad?

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

My morning coffee making routine is usually interrupted no less than five times by the dog wanting to be fed, the toddler wanting another hunk of banana to gnaw on, or the Queen of Bashan trying to make her lunch (we have a small kitchen). Half the time, by the time I get to my first cup, the pot has been sitting on the warmer for at least 15 minutes. So I think all of the benefit you could get from that equipment and fuss would be lost on me.

That said, I do allow myself the indulgence of good coffee beans, fresh ground. Usually a light bodied, low acidity, light roast from a local roaster. I've tried to go back to grocery store coffee, and the difference is significant enough that I'm willing to spend the little extra.

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

We have a burr grinder, a filter coffee machine and an espresso maker - none of them particularly expensive.

If you are leaving instant (and I would) then start with the filter. Then decide if you can be bothered to grind your own beans - there is plenty of perfectly decent ready ground available.

Anything beyond that is just out of interest.

Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
... 45s apparently is the most that you should wait between grinding and brewing ...

I'm the opposite of a coffee expert, but if that's the case, wouldn't ready-ground coffee be a complete no-no?

And is the "grind quality" on electric grinders like these so bad that you have to spend hundreds of pounds on one?

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

It's an example of a kind of hyper-evolution of cultural things, isn't it? I remember with hi-fi, you would end up with guys (mainly guys), spending twenty grand on their hi-fi, and then complaining because the woofers weren't quite set right.

I guess it happens with cars, fashion, jewelry, kitchen tools, damn, it happens with nearly everything!

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Piglet:

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
... 45s apparently is the most that you should wait between grinding and brewing ...
I'm the opposite of a coffee expert, but if that's the case, wouldn't ready-ground coffee be a complete no-no?

Bouillon cubes work, but don't taste as nice as boxed stock, which in turn works but doesn't taste as nice as homemade. You make some sacrifice for convenience. If you store ground coffee in a dark, air-restricted place, and use it relatively quickly, it will make a drinkable cup of coffee. Hell, even Folgers crystals taste OK as long as you just pulled the oxygen barrier off. But in general, grinding creates more surface area to suffer from oxidation, and opens up the beans so that the flavor compounds inside can start dissipating. The less time between grind and brew, the better, or so I have read.

(You ever stay at a vacation rental and make a pot of coffee from the pre-ground coffee that some previous renter bought at some unknown point in the past? It isn't pretty. And don't get me started on that tub of grounds most churches use for months at a time...)

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Piglet:

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
... 45s apparently is the most that you should wait between grinding and brewing ...
I'm the opposite of a coffee expert, but if that's the case, wouldn't ready-ground coffee be a complete no-no?

And is the "grind quality" on electric grinders like these so bad that you have to spend hundreds of pounds on one?

For the snobs, you have to get the beans and grind them yourself, of course. Pre-ground is only one step up from instant, really.

I think - from what I read before my mind gave up - that you need a grinder that doesn't generate any heat, grinds to precisely the right level, and doesn't damage the grind at all. Or something like that.

And yes, you are right, quetzalcoatl, it is like people who would spend 4K on speakers, and claim that they could hear the difference.

They were firmly stuck up their own behinds too.

Posted by Sarasa (# 12271) on :

My husband (coffee geek par excellence) has a Mazzer Mini electric grinder and a Pharos hand grinder, the later imported with a bit of a faff from the states. He loves the hand grinder, but it is hard work, specially if you need to reset it to change the desired grind of coffee. He brought our son another large electric grinder for a resonable price on eBay. Haven't a clue what that one is, just that said son loevs it with a passion. If anything he's more of a geek than his dad.

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
It's an example of a kind of hyper-evolution of cultural things, isn't it? I remember with hi-fi, you would end up with guys (mainly guys), spending twenty grand on their hi-fi, and then complaining because the woofers weren't quite set right.

There's a wonderful Ionicus cartoon I remember - of a room crammed with hi fi equipment and in the corner one solitary LP.

Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on :

I suspect for complete snobs you need to roast them yourself so as to get that just right.

Jengie

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
I suspect for complete snobs you need to roast them yourself so as to get that just right.

Jengie

There's probably a short Heaven thread about stuff that you could do yourself but you shouldn't feel bad about paying someone else for. I spent an afternoon roasting and simmering beef bones for homemade pho once. I learned a lot, but I'll stick to paying $8 for two servings.

Posted by Huia (# 3473) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
I suspect for complete snobs you need to roast them yourself so as to get that just right.

Jengie

I wonder if coffee geeks who live in the right climates grow their own? That would surely be the ultimate geekdom. [Eek!]

Having said that I do prefer to make my own stock for chicken barley broth, then I know what's in it. Maybe I need to start by raising chickens?

Huia

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Not just keeping some poultry - you must also grow what extra food you give them beyond what's growing in their run. Not sure, but you can probably get away with a bought axe to chop their heads off. That of course leads you into the debate about chopping off heads as opposed to strangling necks.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
I suspect for complete snobs you need to roast them yourself so as to get that just right.

Jengie

While many of them do seem to go that way, I think they prefer to simply select a hipster brand of beans, probably having been on holiday there and met the roaster (just the one person, because they only produce a small quantity of beans).

Posted by ThunderBunk (# 15579) on :

I'm not sure what I am on this scale. I pay £35 a kilo for beans I like, get them ground immediately before purchase, and use them in my stovetop mocha maker over the following fortnight.

What does that make me? Probably just a mug. But such a nice mug...

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

I think that makes you an appreciator of nice coffee.

Today I had my first coffee with my new (£8) hand grinder. It is worth it, because the other grinder we have is a blade grinder and that doesn't do it properly for espresso. Can I taste the difference? Yes - this is a very nice, string cup.

Would I notice it if I had spent another £100 on a grinder? Probably not.

Posted by BabyWombat (# 18552) on :

For over 30 years we’ve been grinding our own, using a small electric Krups blade-grinder machine. We’re on our second machine now, but as I recall it was quite inexpensive. It is quick, but noisy. Using an electric drip machine for brewing it makes a nice, dark strong cup of coffee. We had a trickier Italian grinder that allowed for adjusting the grind, but it was too fussy and even noisier. I felt I needed to have coffee before dealing with its intricacies!

We buy Fair Trade French Roast coffee: our nearby food coop offers a 5% discount for buying in the bulk 5 lb. bag, with another 2% off since we qualify for the Senior Citizen discount. The only downside is the noise of the grinder. I am frequently up quite early -- coffee and Matins on the back porch as the birds awake is lovely this time of year! -- but am always concerned that the roar of the grinder disturbs my spouse. So…. I wrap it in a nice thick bath towel to muffle the noise -- rather like a fuzzy humeral veil. Odd, but it works!

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

Great, now I'm timing the interval between grind and brew. Under a minute, but I still have some fat to trim. [Ultra confused]

It probably doesn't matter, since I'm making drip. And yes, if you look in the filter after everything has brewed and the grounds settle by size, you can see that my electric blade grinder gives a very uneven grind- large hunks mixed with fine dust.

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
It probably doesn't matter, since I'm making drip. And yes, if you look in the filter after everything has brewed and the grounds settle by size, you can see that my electric blade grinder gives a very uneven grind- large hunks mixed with fine dust.

This is why I keep thinking about buying a burr grinder. I have ground coffee with a blade for decades, and I do think it's better than pre-ground stuff, but my pour-over coffee is never as good as the pour-over coffee at the local hipster coffee joints, even if I buy their beans, and the only difference is the grinder. But an electric burr grinder would take up significant space on my small kitchen counter, and there's no way I'm going to spend the time to hand-grind coffee on a weekday.

I do love the local hipster coffee, and watching their finicky pour-over methods inspired me to experiment with weighing and measuring at home, which improved my regular morning coffee quite a bit.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
this is a very nice, string cup.

Many questions. How does one contain the liquid therein? What binding method was used, is it woven or glued? Is there a leeching of taste into the coffee? Synthetic or natural?
Was it, due to bad planning, all in three inch lengths?
Interesting choice of material for a cup, string.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
this is a very nice, string cup.

Many questions. How does one contain the liquid therein? What binding method was used, is it woven or glued? Is there a leeching of taste into the coffee? Synthetic or natural?
Was it, due to bad planning, all in three inch lengths?
Interesting choice of material for a cup, string.

It is made of the strings that are the fundamental building blocks of the universe. Everything is made up of them.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
this is a very nice, string cup.

Many questions. How does one contain the liquid therein? What binding method was used, is it woven or glued? Is there a leeching of taste into the coffee? Synthetic or natural?
Was it, due to bad planning, all in three inch lengths?
Interesting choice of material for a cup, string.
It is made of the strings that are the fundamental building blocks of the universe. Everything is made up of them.

So, if string theory is discredited, will the cup still hold coffee?

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

Only if you tell the coffee.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

Just give me the friggin' caffeine for the first three hits. Gimme or die.

Even instant (but only Moccona)

After that I get into the arty farty stuff.

Posted by Lothlorien (# 4927) on :

For years I used a blade grinder and a small glass plunger which had several incarnations as each broke. Then a son gave me a small stainless steel plunger.

When I lived with eldest son and DIL, i was converted to a burr grinder. Coffee is better as blade does not heat the ground coffee. When I moved here, I bought my own espresso benchtop machine, even though I have little bench space. It is equipped with its own hopper and burr grinder and I can adjust the grind to suit the beans.

I had a problem the other day when a dried up, misshapen bean jammed itself and I had to dismantle the grinder and dislodge the bean with my fingers.

Instant? Haven't used it in very many years and there has been none in any place I have lived in for at least twenty years. Nasty stuff.

Posted by justlooking (# 12079) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:

Today I had my first coffee with my new (£8) hand grinder. ....

This is my kind of price. I couldn't afford to be a full-scale coffee freak but I can't cope with instant and haven't had it for many years. I buy ready-ground except when I've mistakenly bought the beans. Having no grinder is a problem which I've solved in the past by using pliers and a small bowl. It takes a long time to plier coffee beans into something like grounds. A cheap grinder will be useful.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

What is this "instant" of which you speak?

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

A mortar and pestle would do you -- pliers I admit is creative.

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

You don't have to pay the earth for a functional burr grinder. Mine is a Swiss device I bought off eBay about five years ago for £45. (The usual new price was £85 at that time, and the seller was a person who discovered they couldn't be bothered with real coffee).

Buy a burr grinder before anything else. The reasons have been well-covered already (pre-ground oxidises too quickly once opened, blade grinders just smash the beans up into different size particles and overheat the grind). It's a foundational investment in good coffee making.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:

Today I had my first coffee with my new (£8) hand grinder. ....
This is my kind of price. I couldn't afford to be a full-scale coffee freak but I can't cope with instant and haven't had it for many years. I buy ready-ground except when I've mistakenly bought the beans. Having no grinder is a problem which I've solved in the past by using pliers and a small bowl. It takes a long time to plier coffee beans into something like grounds. A cheap grinder will be useful.

This is what I bought. Hot Grinder The thing is, if it doesn't work, or breaks, it is not a lot to replace it. So far, it seems perfectly good.

We have a blade grinder, but Mrs Cat has co-opted this for grinding seeds. I have tried using other means (not pliers yet) but for espresso, it needs to be a relatively fine grind.

Posted by justlooking (# 12079) on :

Thanks SC! I've just bought one on 'Click and Collect'. I can collect it on Thursday from Argos.

Posted by justlooking (# 12079) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
What is this "instant" of which you speak?

That brown granule stuff in jars that most churches serve after the service. It produces a hot brown liquid that doesn't even smell like coffee. I stick to the tea.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
What is this "instant" of which you speak?
That brown granule stuff in jars that most churches serve after the service. It produces a hot brown liquid that doesn't even smell like coffee. I stick to the tea.

Oh yes, I know the stuff. Elderly parents often have it, IME.

Posted by Rev per Minute (# 69) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
What is this "instant" of which you speak?
That brown granule stuff in jars that most churches serve after the service. It produces a hot brown liquid that doesn't even smell like coffee. I stick to the tea.
Oh yes, I know the stuff. Elderly parents often have it, IME.

Often interchangeable with gravy granules - except church coffee is never as dark as gravy. [Projectile]

Posted by Lothlorien (# 4927) on :

Interchangeable with gravy granules? Another thing I have used only once when I was given a container and told to make the gravy for Sunday Roast. I had to ask what the stuff was and how to use it. Fiancé's family gave me some very strange looks but I was asked secretly later by one person as to how to make gravy. I was delighted to pass on the way to make good gravy.

Spot on with the description of most church coffee.

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