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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Mourning the loss of faith
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Or maybe mourning the loss of the way faith used to 'work' in your life?
Pondering the Hell thread "Why I hate, loathe, and despise the Bible / OT / NT / Paul/ whatever the freak it is." I was struck by quetzalcoatl's post on the "Would it be possible to radically change the bible?" thread in Purg.
And I wonder if the first stage of grief (anger) is partly in play here? Maybe people like me are dealing with a mourning time for a faith we no longer have.
So I thought I'd start an AS thread for us to talk about it.
quote:
Boogie wrote:
Like Susan Doris said, an unaffected reading of the Bible would not be possible. In the days when I was looking for inspiration in there I found it all the time. Even one word would light up for me as if illuminated from outside. It was quite an experience.
Now I can read it for two minutes at a time and become bored. I think now that - in the past - my own expectations, beliefs and psychology brought me far more inspiration than the actual words ever could. It wasn't God, it was me.
quetzalcoatl wrote:
The same thing happened to me. I am still pondering it, and to an extent, mourning it. When I was young, religious symbols would pierce me to the heart, but now they don't.
As you say, it was me, not God, although I am still wondering about the difference.
I was going to launch into a complicated Jungian analysis of it, but FFS, enough. Well, actually, life is enough.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
I can relate to mourning the way faith used to 'work' in my life, but I have put it down to the different spiritual ages - that is, I was like a baby to start with although I was an adult, then like a teenager, and I have continued to mature. Although I know I have lost, and lament the loss, of the excitement and passions of youth, I appreciate the steadiness and confidence of adulthood. As with the physical, so with the spiritual dimensions of life.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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blackbeard
Ship's Pirate
# 10848
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Posted
I find it difficult to comment on a thread about loss of faith. What is faith? I find it difficult to answer.
One upon a time, I thought I knew the answer; after all, I had been told, many times, what the answer was. In fact it had been rammed down my throat, again and again, and I accepted it without (much) question. Faith was the ability to believe - believe what? a statement of facts. The facts varied somewhat between denominations and factions, but the Nicene Creed was a general starting point. Doubt (ie intelligent questioning) was Bad and to be condemned. Thus, the less one thought, the greater the faith.
It was with some satisfaction, therefore, that I came to realise that the above definition of "faith" isn't in the Bible. Some of the Old Testament heroes mentioned in the letter to the Hebrews, for instance, were notably short on "faith" as above, and would have had difficulty in passing an examination on basic theology. But their faith shone through in (some of) what they did. Even better - the letter of James; faith is seen in action, and in the case action is seen principally in practical help with the desperate social problems of the day.
So if you find yourself giving a little time or effort to help someone in need, maybe you haven't lost your faith after all.
(Helping the blind to see, with a little canine assistance, might qualify?)
Posts: 823 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
In part I think it is about how the individual sees the journey - is it seen as a journey away from something or towards something.
I think faith does change for some of us as we get older and our understanding alters but this can be seen as positive as well as negative. When I left the Church of England back in the early 1980s, yes, that was a time of grief but, in fact, it led me via some time in the wilderness, to the Religious Society of Friends [Quakers] which has been a huge personal blessing.
Any journey involves change and sometimes change can hurt. Yes, I think it is okay to grieve for what we lose but we should also look ahead and be open to the new that is coming to us. On the whole I have found God's plans for me to pretty exciting.
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What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Macrina
Shipmate
# 8807
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Posted
I think actually it's good for me that I'm starting to feel sad about it.
I stopped going to church AGES ago because of the LGBT thing but it was unreflected on. About two years ago I looked into becoming Catholic and started to look seriously at what I felt were my 'stumbling blocks' around sexual morality and (ironically) Mary.
Big mistake. I got really, really, really angry about the sheer bollocks of it all and the parsing words to try and make the bollocks sound official. So I became angry 'spiritual but not religious'.
Recently I've been reading all sorts of books from Dawkins and Harris through to Feser to try and understand the arguments for the existence of God. So far they tell me that you can POSSIBLY argue for a God to exist but this isn't anything like the God that most Christians would know.
I feel sad about that. Part of me wants God to swoop down and say 'it's okay, I'm here and it will be okay.' but I less and less feel that he will. It's bittersweet because in some ways that means I can be less angry and more focussed on living a good life and helping people because this is all we have. But I do wish that I could have a faith.
Posts: 535 | From: Christchurch, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2004
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
Personally, I like the idea of the Numinous, not least because it removes the very loaded word "God" from the discussion, and you have to explore the nature and existence of the divine without the preconceptions that "God" implies.
I think you are right that if you start to argue to the existence of the Divine Numinous, you don't end up with the same as most churches seem to understand. I think you end up with something far bigger, far more God-like.
I was having a discussion with someone at work recently about proofs for the existence of God, and Pascals Wager. What struck me was that these are very limited ideas. Pascals Wager starts from the basis that God either exists or doesn't. But actually, this is not the choice discussed. The existence of God doesn't mean the existence of the Christian God, or a God anything like the one argued for here. God may exist, and be malicious, vile and hate us. I often think this is the case.
So I would rather argue for the numinous, the divine, that there is something more than the physical world that we can identify (and that Dawkins is so insistent is all). I think there is evidence for this, for something non-empirical. Beyond that, if we try to define this, we are liable to be reflecting our own prejudices into having divine status.
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Blog
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Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Beenster
Shipmate
# 242
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Posted
When I lost my faith, it was a hotch potch of a number of things. The loss of community and friends, the loss of a structure, the frustration that I had invested time, money, energy into things that no longer added up. But now, years on, I'm glad that I did take that path and cease trying on the faith route.
I still get angry about it all, but I'm not sure why. Probably because it was so much a part of my life and I still wish I hadn't done the things that I did.
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
I do not have the faith I was taught as a child, because that faith didn't make sense to me, and was full of contradictions and hypocrosies. I don't think I have mourned it and I don't know whether I need to - I'm not even sure I ever had it in the first place to mourn for, but I had the understanding that I was supposed to have it and that God would reject me if I didn't. I no longer have that understanding, and I don't mourn that. I have had to work out my own faith, working it out as I go along, with lots of people thinking I was wrong, or weak-faithed, or not a real Christian.
I think what I do mourn (if it is possible to mourn something one never had but would have liked to have) is the lack of support and openness within many churches to enable people to express what they really think and feel, and to question assumptions that are deep-rooted within the church. It has often been a lonely journey.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I don't have the faith I was taught as a child, because I wasn't taught faith as a child. I came to understand (as much as anyone can) and accept the Christian faith in my late teens. Since then my beliefs and practices have been on something of a roller coaster ride, although the practices part has evened out some since I became Orthodox*. Faith waxes and wanes, but for me (so far) always comes back.
I think the arguments for God's existence are all well and good, but they are not sound arguments**, and even if accepted are, as a proof of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jesus, like using a stepladder to fetch a cone at the top of a redwood.
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*the church's various practices don't change, but how and to what extent one participates in them can and does and arguably should
**in the technical use of the term: a deductive argument with true premises and demonstrably truth-preserving modes of inference
[ 08. November 2015, 13:46: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
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Posted
There seems to be a confusion about "faith" which is personal and consists in relationship, and "the Faith" which is body of doctrine,
People can subscribe ( and later unsubscribe) to the latter and, inevitably the body of doctrine to which they are committed changes and evolves.
But faith as relationship is another thing. Of course it is possible to lose a relationship for all sorts of reasons. But that is different from mourning the loss of belief.
Posts: 1914 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
Faith, right. I devoted a significant chunk of my life to faith and my beliefs, committed to God and all the rest of it. Here I am at 50-something with nothing to show for it and a lot of questions about why there are problems in the world that wreck someone's declining years, like crippling arthritis, or dementia, or Parkinson's. And why and how life shrivels inexorably around many people, their mobility increasingly restricted and how bit by bit they give up the things they used to enjoy doing. And why prayer goes unanswered. I feel like saying with a shrug, "Well, whatever. You have faith if you want, I don't want to spoil it for you. Believe while you still can."
I don't think I mourn the loss of faith, it's more a weary sort of acceptance that I wasted years doing what I thought was the right thing to do, but that really is all anyone can do: what you think is the right thing to do at the time.
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Very interesting thread and posts. Rather than 'mourn' a loss of faith in religious beliefs, I would say, celebrate the move away from it, and to a much more securely based understanding that our human species has never had an actual god doing anything anyway; we humans have done it all including imagining the existence of all gods. The belief that God/god/s exist has had such a powerful influence on our history that it will never itself completely become a part of past history, but unless there can be presented a fact which then becomes objective knowledge, the decline in religious beliefs will continue.
I can ccompletely understand and sympathise with the feeling of mourning, although, my faith had always contained a good dose of scepticism. For me it was more a case of kick-self for taking so long to shake myself freeand really understand what the non-believers I knew had been talking about! The increasing number of good books (e.g. ‘Human Universe’ by Prof Brian Cox which is associated with a TV series I understand), most of the excellent BBC Radio 4 Science based programmes – often used in the Open University studies – and plenty of evidence-based info on the internet all help to provide firm ground to move onto when leaving faith. The number of atheists (and humanists) is most decidedly on the rise.
Hmmmm, actually, all we need is a few good rousing songs, set to some really strong, memorable tunes!!
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Good questions and answers.
Is there such a thing as a "negative" getting struck on the road to Damascus like Paul experienced? Because I think I had one. Where the experience of an incident dealt me with a blow I felt physically, and everything changed. I could talk and see and hear, but all through a surreal bubble, that took about 6 weeks before I really could function. Then it was and is a matter of figuring out, post flood, how to rebuilt life. Can't say I like it much - it destroyed our family faith life as it was constituted then.
I wonder how long Paul's ministry was, his trips, letter writing, etc before his encounter with the axe. I'd also like to get a better sense of how long after his Damascus road experience he was credibly preachifying. I can't believe that it was immediate. Unless he was a superman.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Hmmmm, actually, all we need is a few good rousing songs, set to some really strong, memorable tunes!!
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Good questions and answers.
Is there such a thing as a "negative" getting struck on the road to Damascus like Paul experienced? Because I think I had one. Where the experience of an incident dealt me with a blow I felt physically, and everything changed. I could talk and see and hear, but all through a surreal bubble, that took about 6 weeks before I really could function. Then it was and is a matter of figuring out, post flood, how to rebuilt life. Can't say I like it much - it destroyed our family faith life as it was constituted then.
I wonder how long Paul's ministry was, his trips, letter writing, etc before his encounter with the axe. I'd also like to get a better sense of how long after his Damascus road experience he was credibly preachifying. I can't believe that it was immediate. Unless he was a superman.
It was several years, it looks like. He went away into Arabia for a while, and I think some other stuff.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
It was several years, it looks like. He went away into Arabia for a while, and I think some other stuff.
That makes a lot of sense. He had to reinvent himself, adopt to a new world view, which is no simple chore as an adult, perhaps easier as a young person. I should like to think, headstrong personality that he was, that he'd have had a few wrestling matches and some hip pain along the way.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Angel Wrestler
Ship's Hipster
# 13673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Macrina:
I think actually it's good for me that I'm starting to feel sad about it.
I stopped going to church AGES ago because of the LGBT thing but it was unreflected on. About two years ago I looked into becoming Catholic and started to look seriously at what I felt were my 'stumbling blocks' around sexual morality and (ironically) Mary.
Big mistake. I got really, really, really angry about the sheer bollocks of it all and the parsing words to try and make the bollocks sound official. So I became angry 'spiritual but not religious'.
Recently I've been reading all sorts of books from Dawkins and Harris through to Feser to try and understand the arguments for the existence of God. So far they tell me that you can POSSIBLY argue for a God to exist but this isn't anything like the God that most Christians would know.
I feel sad about that. Part of me wants God to swoop down and say 'it's okay, I'm here and it will be okay.' but I less and less feel that he will. It's bittersweet because in some ways that means I can be less angry and more focussed on living a good life and helping people because this is all we have. But I do wish that I could have a faith.
'spiritual but not religious'.
to the bolded: for me, it was becoming religious but not terribly spiritual. I'm (Western) Christian because I live in a Western country that is culturally (at least in name) Christian and therefore the philosophy makes a certain sense. It acknowledges the reality of suffering and the hope of ultimate healing / resurrection.
I now work with a lot of homeless people and working poor. They may not experience healing in a way society might want them to experience it (being free of mental illness, addiction, or stubbornness and becoming a working, housed person), but I can do a little something for them today.
That, IMO, is an allegory to the Eucharist, extending the Lord's table. It doesn't matter whether I believe, in a literal sense, the events of the Bible; it makes sense philosophically. It doesn't matter whether I utter the prayer of institution (or whether I pray at all). Faith is what is alive. This is what "alive" looks like for me.
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The fact that no one understands you does not make you an artist.
(unknown)
Posts: 2767 | From: half-way up the ladder | Registered: May 2008
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Angel Wrestler
Ship's Hipster
# 13673
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Posted
When I lost my faith, it was like losing a best friend. I lost it when I was praying and an answer came to me: "Y'know, Angel Wrestler, God's just not that into you." It was heartbreaking to think that I'd spent so much time and effort trying to establish a relationship that just wasn't going to come out in the way that I thought (and most folks think) that it should.
In a way it was freeing; I no longer had to work so hard at this relationship.
It was also crushing. The one I'd consigned my life to, if s/he responded at all, was only after blood, sweat, and tears on my part.
If this relationship were a human relationship, I'd distance myself. So, I did.
I'm grateful that I found a different sort of path and one that works for me, but even so, those years were worse than losing my dad. I knew my dad was sick and he died. God, as I understood God at the time, isn't ill and can't die and yet still severed the relationship.
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The fact that no one understands you does not make you an artist.
(unknown)
Posts: 2767 | From: half-way up the ladder | Registered: May 2008
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
I haven't lost my faith, but after having been burnt too many times I have written off the organized church. I do mourn the loss of the fellowship I used to enjoy with other Christians in a local church.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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Dee.
Ship's Theological Acrobat
# 5681
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Posted
Hi all,
It has been years since I have posted but I popped in tonight and spotted this thread. I started on the ship in 2003ish as a GLE and 12 years later I attend an anglican church and am hanging on to my faith barely and by a spider web like thread.
Somewhere in the last 10 years I have gotten so angry with the church for the crappy authoritarian, patriarchal bolloks that they put me through for the last 37 years that I cant even pray.
I get major comfort from my church which is liberal theologically and the liturgy supports my spirituality in the only way I can handle. I am super lucky that I have stumbled in to a community that actually lives the real gospel.
The problem is that I am essentially not speaking to God. I cant seem to untangle my concept of God from the hideous asshole pastors and spiritual leaders and manipulation I experienced for all tnose years.
I cant quite leave for good but I cant handle calling myself a christian due to all of the madness that this implies.
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Jesus - nice bloke, bit religious
Posts: 2679 | From: Under Downunder | Registered: Mar 2004
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
Dee - welcome back.
You do know that a spiders web thread is incredibly strong, weight for weight, don't you?
I suppose I would say the same to you as to everyone - hold onto your faith, reject the expressions of it that have been hurtful. And I know that is glib and easy to say. But I hope that in the community you are now in you can find a way to build and grow your faith.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dee.:
The problem is that I am essentially not speaking to God. ...
I cant quite leave for good but I cant handle calling myself a christian due to all of the madness that this implies.
Yes - I'm the same, for different reasons.
Welcome back Dee ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Nicodemia
WYSIWYG
# 4756
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Posted
Me too with a tiny thread of faith! Keep hoping it might strengthen, but as I rarely speak to God, why should it?
Oh heck!
Posts: 4544 | From: not too far from Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2003
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Dee.
Ship's Theological Acrobat
# 5681
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Posted
Totally with you on that one Nicodemia. Am going with the keep calm and carry on approach. And in my more optimistic moments I figure that if whoever is out there wants me then they will light my path back...
Fingers crossed.
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Jesus - nice bloke, bit religious
Posts: 2679 | From: Under Downunder | Registered: Mar 2004
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dee.:
The problem is that I am essentially not speaking to God. I cant seem to untangle my concept of God from the hideous asshole pastors and spiritual leaders and manipulation I experienced for all those years.
But that may be the whole thing with liturgy (in various forms). In my 30+ years of stumbling faith there have been times I have been so spewing at the church and its members (not least in recent weeks) and at humanity and its godawfulness that I can barely comprehend the possibility of the glimmer of a cell of an existent god. But the liturgy provides a dance and a poem that keep me stumbling on and somehow those speakings stutter their way godwards despite the all but obliterative fuckery.
Welcome back, by the way. ![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
The strange thing is that I find it the other way around. I find the liturgy and formality of the church get in the way of my relationship with God.
For me, it crystallised the fact that my faith was in God, not the church.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Dee.
Ship's Theological Acrobat
# 5681
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Posted
Funny how different aspects of the church and community support or undermine our faith at different times.
I feel at the moment like I am not speaking to one of my parents and I am too mad to know how to open up a conversation to start to try and make it right.
I hate unresolved anger in relationships
BTW Thanks for all the welcome backs guys.
[ 30. November 2015, 05:22: Message edited by: Dee. ]
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Jesus - nice bloke, bit religious
Posts: 2679 | From: Under Downunder | Registered: Mar 2004
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
I hope you don't mind if I pray for the opportunity for reconciliation to arise, Dee, and for the words.
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Dee.
Ship's Theological Acrobat
# 5681
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Posted
All prayers welcome Raptor,
It occurs to me that I actually want to walk away from the church, not from God, and not all of the church, just most of the church of my experience.
And perhaps who is out there is totally different from who they told me. And that is who I want to know.
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Jesus - nice bloke, bit religious
Posts: 2679 | From: Under Downunder | Registered: Mar 2004
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dee.:
All prayers welcome Raptor,
It occurs to me that I actually want to walk away from the church, not from God, and not all of the church, just most of the church of my experience.
And perhaps who is out there is totally different from who they told me. And that is who I want to know.
For me, it was the other way around. I drew close to God through prayer, and church came later, not what I wanted at all. I agree that we do have to find out for ourselves, we can't take anyone's word for it, and we do have to jettison some of the stuff we were told as children and held onto.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dee.:
It occurs to me that I actually want to walk away from the church, not from God, and not all of the church, just most of the church of my experience.
And perhaps who is out there is totally different from who they told me. And that is who I want to know.
I think differentiating God and the church is always a good thing. That doesn't mean the church is irrelevant, just that God is not defined by the church.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Dee.
Ship's Theological Acrobat
# 5681
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Posted
So true S Cat,
I am staring to realise that God is not who they said s/he was. And more to the point they did not reflect the divine image at all. What I need to find my way to is a new understanding of the divine being that does not reflect all of these assholes that said they represented him.
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Jesus - nice bloke, bit religious
Posts: 2679 | From: Under Downunder | Registered: Mar 2004
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
Hi Dee, good to see you.
I think my view of God is evolving. I have been very lucky to find a church with some loving people, so I don't have that jarring disconnect between what they say, who they are and their various views of God.
Mind you I had to move to one of the most liberal Presbyterian churches in the country to find that. I don't fit so well with official Presbyterian doctrine, but then I probably didn't with Anglican either.
If Presbies become more conservative I may go back and explore the Quakers, though I'm not sure where they are now since they lost their Meeting House in the quakes.
Huia
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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Dee.
Ship's Theological Acrobat
# 5681
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Posted
Hi Huia
My church community is the real deal and our vicar is great. She is leavng in January so I am nervous about what will happen next because it is the community that has kept me from walking away entirely. I have experienced a number of churches turn pear shaped with a new priest taking over and wanting to make his mark on the church.
Fingers crossed the new vicar will have the same theology and similar churchmansip. With a bit if luck we might even get another woman.
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Jesus - nice bloke, bit religious
Posts: 2679 | From: Under Downunder | Registered: Mar 2004
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Nicodemia
WYSIWYG
# 4756
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Posted
I changed churches, Dee, for precisely the opposite reason! The previous vicar left, he was great, and a woman came, who was not. Theologically she left me far behind, and for other reasons I went. She also turned the church upside down, but she has now gone, so I am back there, having found the dogmatic approach at the Evo church unpalatable.
I now find the liturgy quite a comfort sometimes, and hopefully, can find God there again. Though he/she won't be my previous understanding, still struggling with the whole vastness and un-understandability of the universe!
Crossing my fingers (in a Christian way, of course ![[Biased]](wink.gif) ) for the right Vicar, gender immaterial.
Posts: 4544 | From: not too far from Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2003
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Dee.
Ship's Theological Acrobat
# 5681
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Posted
Yup,
Its always a punt. My fingers are crossed as well. And there is a great Anglo-catholic congregation not too far away if by some freak of the process we end up with an arm waving evangellyfish.
D
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Jesus - nice bloke, bit religious
Posts: 2679 | From: Under Downunder | Registered: Mar 2004
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
We will have a new Minister after Easter as the present one is retiring. The church chose a good one last time and has in the past ( a retired Minister is part of the congregation) so I am hoping...
I may yet have to locate the Quakers though it would be hard to leave the people.
Huia
[ 02. December 2015, 17:48: Message edited by: Huia ]
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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Nenya
Shipmate
# 16427
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dee.:
I am staring to realise that God is not who they said s/he was. And more to the point they did not reflect the divine image at all. What I need to find my way to is a new understanding of the divine being that does not reflect all of these assholes that said they represented him.
Yes. On the days when I think s/he could still be there I feel I am rediscovering God and what his/her nature might be.
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They told me I was delusional. I nearly fell off my unicorn.
Posts: 1289 | Registered: May 2011
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HarryLime
Apprentice
# 18525
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Posted
I fear this might be a foolish or slightly off-topic point to raise, but here goes. I notice most of you discuss the loss of faith in terms I don't really understand: the relationship with God, the divine image, and so on. I'm a bit different. I was brought up a Catholic, stopped going to Mass or even thinking about religion at about age 14, and am now curious about returning in middle age. I like the church as an institution. I like churches as buildings. I note that churchgoers are among the nicest people I meet. I love the calendar of the church, and the way it used to give shape to the year, although we've mostly lost that.
The problem is, I'm not at all convinced there's a God, and I'm even less convinced there's an afterlife.
It puzzles me that Christians are so uninterested in discussing the fundamentals of faith: creation, the nature of God, the afterlife. I do have one friend who says unapologetically that she believes, literally, in heaven and hell, and we all deserve hell, and should therefore repent so that we can go to heaven instead. That makes sense to me, and those are the kind of basic terms in which I'm thinking about all this at the moment.
So, I'd be grateful for your advice, as someone who feels the pull of the church as an institution rather than God. Where do I go from here? What, precisely, do you believe, and why? Too many questions, and too big, I know. But I thought I'd ask!
Posts: 18 | From: Bristol | Registered: Dec 2015
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
Hello Harry Lime, welcome to the Ship.
I am coming from the perspective of someone who does now believe in God and who does now attend church and has now come to appreciate those things you mention about church, over time.
Among every congregation there are people who are not convinced about the existence of God or of the afterlife. Few people progress beyond the creation stories they learned as children, as few go in for theological study. There is little therefore to talk about, other than whether or not they believe that God is the Creator of the universe. Why they believe it will often be connected with the awe that we feel when we observe nature.
Awe describes what I feel about God, awe and love, which both emanate as the nature of God for me, but God is more than that. Whatever we grasp about God, God is more than that.
As for the afterlife, I believe that the resurrection of Jesus was a real event, and that eternal life is offered to us all through him.
I and others on this forum would be more than happy to discuss all of these on the Purgatory board, if you raise threads about them.
My advice would be to find a church that you feel at home in, and go from there.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HarryLime:
It puzzles me that Christians are so uninterested in discussing the fundamentals of faith: creation, the nature of God, the afterlife. I do have one friend who says unapologetically that she believes, literally, in heaven and hell, and we all deserve hell, and should therefore repent so that we can go to heaven instead. That makes sense to me, and those are the kind of basic terms in which I'm thinking about all this at the moment.
It has always seemed to me that above all, theology should make sense. Otherwise, how can we have enough confidence in our beliefs to allow them to change who we are?
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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
Posts: 1565 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I dunno--I'm interested in discussing the nature of God, heaven, hell, what difference Christianity makes in life, etc. etc. Maybe you just haven't struck the right group of people yet, for conversations like that? Keep trying, I'd say.
As for theology making sense--I'm okay with that up to a certain point, but there are real limits on what we-as-human-beings currently understand, and probably on what we CAN understand, though I hope those are a lot further out. Any field of knowledge is going to have areas where the best answer is "Sorry, we still don't know," and theology is one of those.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Graven Image
Shipmate
# 8755
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Posted
My problem is that I find my church dull. Great group of people, great fellowship but stuck in a superficial place of comfort.
The problem for me is that I have long been involved in an great interfaith group of people who are offering pastoral care and healing though art, music and story telling.
This group makes my heart sing as I meet people who are in pain that are able to express their needs and have others really listen to them with a caring heart. I see the Spirit here bringing true healing though loving fellowship and open honesty. I feel what I do really matters and is living out the Gospel as I understand it.
Then I go to church on Sunday morning and people talk about the next fund raiser and what Bible study to do for Lent and frankly it all bores me.
Add to this I must drive some distance to attended church and as I age that grows to be more and more a problem. The local churches in my area and 3 independent and one Roman Catholic non of which are a fit for me. I find it all rather vexing. Prayer is for me simply holding someone up in my heart trusting that God honors my care and loves the person I am praying for.
It is not that I do not believe in God it is that the God of my youth and even of my church seems to small..
Posts: 2641 | From: Third planet from the sun. USA | Registered: Nov 2004
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Hail Mary
Apprentice
# 18531
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Posted
This is a possibly boring personal anecdote about faith so please skim as you see fit.
I used to belong to an Anglican church that was home in every way to me. In fact, my family lived beside it. I wanted to devote my life to the ministry. Our deacon encouraged me to stay a lay person, saying that the hardest, but possibly most effective thing is to just live in faith.
Years passed, I left home, and moved across the country, and started attending Quaker Meeting. There’s so much that is appealing about Quakerism, and Anglicans make good Quakers, and vice versa. They have the sacred-in-the-ordinary that I was longing for, and their philosophy of “let your life speak” and “walk cheerfully over the world, answering that of God in everyone” inspires me still.
One weekend, when I was doing a workshop in a prison, (as a volunteer, I should clarify, although it’s debatable whether I should be locked up), I got that feeling that Quakers describe as feeling ready to speak under the compulsion of the Spirit. This sounds bonkers, but it has happened to me twice. There, during the prison workshop, I could suddenly see how we are all interconnected, and that this is reality. I felt an inner voice telling me to stop pondering theological questions and to live in trust, because everything’s taken care of, to stop wasting time with this navel-gazing and to get to work doing practical things because there's broken hearts and suffering everywhere. And then God basically turned his back on me. I went back to Quaker Meeting and said, this is very odd but I’m not going to come anymore. God told me to stop believing in him and start being more effective in helping others.
And after that, I was very lonely, because I didn’t feel God’s presence any more or my former faith-infused certainty. It’s been years since then, almost twenty years, and I’ve grieved on and off for my former faith, and have prayed and asked God to please return, and have generally felt abandoned, and with time have increasingly thought that those past religious feelings were just a delusion. However I have never stopped believing that the experience I had that day during the prison workshop was a signpost in my life, where God told me what direction to go in.
In the last year or so, the feeling of God’s closeness and grace has been returning, and this is the gift I’ve longed for for such a long time. So to end this ramble, my hopefully evolving understanding of faith means being faithful even when I don’t feel God’s presence at all, and feel lonely and despairing.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. ~ Jack Layton
Posts: 35 | From: Canada | Registered: Jan 2016
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
Thank you Hail Mary for sharing your story. The time without God meant that you were thirsty for God. I wonder whether without that thirst, we don't remain focussed on God, a focus that does inspire our action in compassion but doesn't consist of it, and as a result we observe the kind of 'boring, fund-raising' focus that does nothing to foster our faith in God.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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HarryLime
Apprentice
# 18525
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Posted
Thanks to those of you who replied to my post. You all have good points to make and have given me something to think about.
This forum makes me aware that my thinking on religion is quite immature. I'm a middle-aged man, and not stupid, but I frankly haven't thought about religion much since I was a boy. It's great to have found a friendly and interesting environment in which to talk about these things.
Posts: 18 | From: Bristol | Registered: Dec 2015
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HarryLime:
This forum makes me aware that my thinking on religion is quite immature.
Consider it "an opportunity to learn more". You are probably like 90% of churchgoers, who have never really given consideration in a mature, adult, thoughtful way to what they actually believe, what they actually do and why. This is not a criticism as such, just an acknowledgement of reality.
It is a sign of a maturing faith that you acknowledge the need to think more about it.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
quote:
...my thinking on religion is quite immature
I'm a prod, but I'm interested in RC things like chanted prayer. I think I'll try your phrase on for a mantra - and if I didn't like my sig line (nicked from another shipmate) as much as I do, I'd use it there, too
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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HarryLime
Apprentice
# 18525
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Posted
Thanks Mark. I love your signature, by the way.
It's a funny thing, my Catholic background is the thing that's tied me to religion through the years of not believing. Just because Catholics are a minority in Britain, and so it's been part of my identity. All that teasing about going to a Catholic school and so on.
The truth is I'm probably more comfortable with Protestant churches. Why shouldn't women be priests? I don't see a good reason. In fact, I suspect they'd make better priests. Why shouldn't the Mass be in the vernacular language? It should be. That's obvious.
Would I actually switch to a Protestant church, though? It has a feel of betrayal about it. Irrational. Stupid. UnChrsitian. That's the way I feel at the moment though!
Posts: 18 | From: Bristol | Registered: Dec 2015
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
I know there's a thread in Purg about the Anglican Primates meeting. I haven't posted there because I don't want to argue a point of view, or discuss it, but I do want to say I feel heart sick about what has happened.
Huia
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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