Thread: Changing to a new/different church Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.
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Posted by leftfieldlover (# 13467) on
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After many years of praying and talking about it, I have finally made the decision to leave the church which I attended for over 30 years. I had become unhappy for various reasons but particularly in the last 3 years. Last week I started attending a nearby benefice where a different church hosts a service each Sunday. My only other alternative would be to drive to a city nearby. Does anyone else have experience of leaving a church which they have attended for decades and joining another? I am still living in the same house and know the same people but my spiritual home will be elsewhere.
Posted by To The Pain (# 12235) on
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About three years ago I left a large, vibrant evangelical church that I had been attending for only one decade and after a bit of a break started attending the local parish church which is only a five minute walk from my front door. It is... strange. I now very rarely have any contact with anyone from my former church (and what I do have is mostly via facebook) but don't yet feel fully integrated with the new church. I have found that joining the singing group, door steward rota and attending or helping out at church events helped me to get to know a few people, but as I joined as half of a couple it's easy to sit in our own little bubble or be left to talk to only each other.
I think it is a challenge to transition well and it is tempting to expect the change to instantly improve matters. I did semi-formally leave the previous church by writing to the leaders and the people who looked after my small group, but as it was a large church that meets over several sites I'm not sure that everyone realises we have gone. It's also almost impossible to avoid comparing the two places and in my case they are very different. Now that the shine has worn off the new place I can see that everywhere has its flaws, I knew it might just take a while for them to become apparent. I also have friends who are very dismissive of the old place, but as a church it is doing some things very well and I don't like to hear it levelled with blanket criticism even though I know that it served me and some others within the congregation very poorly.
Take some time to let yourself make the move, transitions are always unsettling times. I found that a couple of months of 'wash out' was beneficial, but you might prefer to switch more quickly, or visit your main two options a few times before making a firm decision for one or the other. All the best for negotiating your change.
Posted by Helen-Eva (# 15025) on
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Very best of luck with the new church. As To The Pain says it's probably easiest to make some friends quickly if you join a group or a rota or something. At our church we have a tea and coffee rota at the end of services and if you do that you get to talk to loads of people, make friends with your fellow tea makers, and also take on a job there are never enough people to do so you'd be very welcome. Possibly your new church has something similar? A change after 30 years is going to feel very weird I'm sure so I hope it goes well.
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
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Thirty years is a long time, right enough ...
I left a church after 18 years and found it very painful indeed - even though I'd long been out of synch with the ethos and modus operandi there ...
The relationships we'd built there were very strong.
I don't think there are any easy answers or even general principles ... each 'case' is going to be different and there'll be all sorts of variables - such as worship style, ethos and theology, depth of friendships and relationships and so on.
One of the things that has struck me over the years is how 'functional' many church-based relationships can be ... they exist because you are working together with the same goal ...
Once that goal changes or no longer applies, the relationships which accompanied it tend to fade ...
That said, I'm still on good terms with everyone from those days and if I see any of them - which isn't very often - there's an immediate sense of 'connection' ... despite everything.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
One of the things that has struck me over the years is how 'functional' many church-based relationships can be ... they exist because you are working together with the same goal ...
Once that goal changes or no longer applies, the relationships which accompanied it tend to fade ...
Surely true of relationships at work, too?
Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on
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I have left three churches which I'd attended for a long period of time. Two were because I moved a significant distance away.
The third we left twice, for two different reasons and with two different outcomes.
The first time we left was because of the lack of anything for children during the service. Our son was the only child in the church, and the church was unwilling to arrange something for a single child (but also made it clear that as he was getting noisier and more fidgety that they didn't want him in the whole service to disturb them). So we moved to another church (in the same denomination) where there were quite a few children. We left with the full understanding and blessing of the church, because they knew they couldn't provide what our children needed. We tried it for about 9 months before deciding it wasn't working out. There were several reasons it wasn't working - first that the boy didn't want to go with the other children without us (so we were still in the situation of one of us having to spend the service as child minder), we were unhappy with them excluding the children from Communion, but probably the biggest was the distance was enough to make getting to mid week events difficult and so our opportunity to get to know people and participate in church life beyond Sunday morning was limited. If it was possible to participate more fully then we might have stayed put, as that would have also helped with the other issues. So we moved back.
The second time was very different. There was some fuss over calling a new minister, with a significant proportion of the congregation showing that not only wouldn't they accept the minister who came to preach with a view, they were uninterested in discussing the issue with others, and also that they would not welcome quite a few of our friends. I was an Elder by that time, and there was an Elders meeting the week after everything went to pot where I found myself compelled to read a prepared statement, resign our membership and walk out (another Elder and several members also left). We found a home in another church in town, in the same denomination and actually partnered with the one we left which we'd been told was dead. But, though very small we were made very welcome - we still had the only children but there was always someone willing to take them out to the school room, and if they wanted to stay in then a table was set up at the front for colouring activities and no one made a fuss about a bit of noise. I took some time out before accepting the invitation to serve as an Elder there - mainly because we did need to see if the (at this stage very cold) relationship with the church we'd just left was going to create problems.
Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
One of the things that has struck me over the years is how 'functional' many church-based relationships can be ... they exist because you are working together with the same goal ...
Once that goal changes or no longer applies, the relationships which accompanied it tend to fade ...
Surely true of relationships at work, too?
That's a good point Baptist Trainfan.
I am still friends with one woman from when we taught together 25 years ago.
Interestingly I am still friends with a handful of people from different churches I have been part of over the years but as regards both churches and workplaces the falling away from friendly relationships has been significant in number.
The problem with one church in particular that I was part of is just as Gamamliel says which as you say makes it more like a workplace. But all sorts of statements had been made about friendship so when after leaving but remaining in the same town, I was dropped socially it really hurt
Hey ho!
It takes considerable effort to maintain meaningful relationships when you no longer see someone else on a regular basis.
And going back to the OP IME it takes time to make such a big adjustment and it takes time to figure out how to belong and to build friendships rather than friendly associations.
[ 08. January 2016, 13:40: Message edited by: MrsBeaky ]
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on
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To add to all the excellent wisdom that's been offered, I would say, if you're able to be honest about the fact that you're leaving with both leadership and friends w/o bashing the church you're leaving, I have found that enormously helpful. It's difficult to navigate that-- obviously if you're leaving, you're leaving for a reason. Sometimes the reasons are so toxic that further contact is impossible. Fortunately, it sounds like this is not the case here, and in fact it sounds like there's still much you can appreciate about the church that has been your home for so long. You don't need to enumerate your reasons for leaving, but saying clearly something like, "we've come to this hard decision, but will always appreciate x, y, or x, and will continue to support your ministry in our prayers..." goes a very long way. Having that clarity really makes it possible for relationships to continue where that is desirable. It also helps clean up the residual messiness of people wondering whether or not to call you to volunteer for some rota because they're not really sure if you're gone or just on vacation.
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
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hosting/
I think this is All Saints material, so I'm moving it there. Do not adjust your sets.
/hosting
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
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Starting over is lonely, whether moving to a new city or a new job or a new church. But sometimes in life starting over is what you need for growth (or sanity) as a person or as a Christian.
Best chance of finding people to be friends with is find the other newcomers. Most oldtimers already have as many friends as they have time for. Newcomers are the ones who need new friends. Some churches have lists of who's new, or even clubs or gatherings for newcomers.
Join an interactive small group. A Bible study where people mostly sit and listen won't get you building personal connections. A choir might or might not, some encourage interaction, others discourage it to focus on the music and you barely get a chance to learn the people's names. Work parties can be great if they are ongoing - a one time project isn't likely to create a bond unless it's an emotionally intense project.
Look for groups with dynamics that encourage enjoying each other and regular periodic meetings so you can build on the first encounters. Suggest lunch together after church, to get to know each other.
(Watch out for interactive group of oldtimers -- they'll be chatting with each other, just briefly acknowledging you. No one means to snub the newcomer, but there's so much to "catch up" with among their friends, there just isn't time to get to know you, too. You need to find the other newcomers! They are the ones actively wanting new friends.)
Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on
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When I was in my mid-teens, my disillusionment with the (Baptist) church in which I'd grown up coincided with my discovery of Proper Church Music™, and I moved to the local (Church of Scotland) cathedral, which had a choir which sang it.
As the place where I lived had a population of about 5,000, most of the cathedral congregation knew that my family were Baptists, and looked at me somewhat askance at first, but were very welcoming once they got used to the idea (my parents eventually followed and Dad became an elder, although this was after I'd left the county). I became a regular attender, after a few years joined the choir and after a few more years married the organist ... ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
My other church moves have been partly geographical, partly denominational; D's job took us to the Church of Ireland and then the Anglican Church of Canada, which suits me very well.
While I bear no ill-will towards the people of the church of my childhood (they included some of the most genuinely Good People I know), on the rare occasions that I went back, I got the slight feeling that some of them thought I'd erred and strayed.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
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I left a church when it pased resolutions A B and C - against women priests and for flying bishops.
On the odd occasions when I go back there - mostly for funerals of people I knew - I find it very odd and wonder why I ever went there in the first place.
Posted by Uncle Pete (# 10422) on
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I left my most current church last April, for many of the same reasons (not liturgy or theology, I assure you). At this point, I am still a believer and may return to Church at some time in the future but, as things stand and although I have considered options, I am still homeless. I place my trust in God that I will be led aright, but my prayers are currently at home, alone.
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Piglet:
... the people of the church of my childhood (they included some of the most genuinely Good People I know), on the rare occasions that I went back, I got the slight feeling that some of them thought I'd erred and strayed.
Are you referring to that vague unspoken air of disapproval and the distancing tone of voice when they greet you? The words may be warm but the smile is impersonal and the conversation short?
My recent conclusion is that humans are tribal, and church membership is a tribe. When you leave a church, you leave the whole tribe including people you thought were friends. They see your leaving their tribe as a statement "you think a different tribe is better than ours!"
I used to wonder why a member who shows up once a month can be more openly valued than a non-member who shows up two or three times weekly and wants to participate in work projects. Joining the tribe validates the tribe. Showing up to work without being "one of us" makes you uncomfortable to be around, you are not one of us, so what are you doing here? (Not everyone thinks this way, of course, but many seem to.)
I have friends who retain formal membership in a prior church even while joining a new to them church (there's no "forsaking all others" clause), so they can remain friends with people who engage with only their own church tribe.
But there's also, as mentioned upthread, inherent difficulty keeping up personal relations with people rarely seen. If church activities is what you had in common to chat about, and that topic is gone because you are no longer involved in the same group concerns, the conversation is superficial instead of connective.
Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on
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I wonder what we are looking for in a church? Some of the above posts imply that the social aspect is the most important consideration. Surely the purpose of going to church has more to do with worship of God?
Social clubs tend to develop cliques, so that newcomers don't feel as if they're a part of it and are unlikely to stay. A church will inevitably dwindle away over time if it is no more than a social club.
Where people are aiming to build side by side with a common purpose, i.e. to love and serve God, everyone will feel as if they are a part of it and the church will grow. Some friendships will be formed, and some will last, as they do in the workplace.
Only you know why you are unhappy with your current church, and what you are looking for, leftfieldlover. I hope and pray that God will show you where he wants you to serve now.
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
I wonder what we are looking for in a church? Some of the above posts imply that the social aspect is the most important consideration. Surely the purpose of going to church has more to do with worship of God?
Aspirational, the worship as priority. Like many nice ideas, it's an idea. Comes and goes. Or goes and the social that developed has created enough adherence that you stick to it. I expect at the beginning of Christianity some of the people showed up mainly or only because there was food on offer.
Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
... church membership is a tribe ...
I think you've probably hit it on the head, BR, and in that first church, I never really felt part of the tribe (although I was a regular attender).
And yes, the disapproval was completely tacit (and quite possibly in my imagination) apart from one comment from an elderly lady who said something about "not going to a proper church", but I can't say she was someone whose opinion mattered to me.
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
I wonder what we are looking for in a church? Some of the above posts imply that the social aspect is the most important consideration. Surely the purpose of going to church has more to do with worship of God?
Aspirational, the worship as priority. Like many nice ideas, it's an idea. Comes and goes. Or goes and the social that developed has created enough adherence that you stick to it. I expect at the beginning of Christianity some of the people showed up mainly or only because there was food on offer.
For many people, human connections is what keeps them returning to this church (even the weeks they don't want to go), instead of going to different church every week or praying at home. Being connected to people often helps keep a person connected to God, even if only because we often see and hear God through people.
A church that is just a social club is missing the point, but a church of people who don't bother getting to know or care about each other is also missing the point. Community is a huge part of Christianity. Breaking bread together, the apostles studying the scriptures together.
We build a sense of together by engaging with each other, and most of us do that best when mostly with people we know.
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on
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Well explained Belle Ringer. That is it exactly as I understand and personally experienced it. It is also a difficult thing, for me, when we have changed churches. Most recently 2 years ago after our church closed up.
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Piglet:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
... church membership is a tribe ...
I think you've probably hit it on the head, BR, and in that first church, I never really felt part of the tribe (although I was a regular attender).
There can be lots of reasons someone is never really accepted by a tribe -- ethnic, socio-economic, and much subtler things like how you express yourself that do or don't fit tribal ways.
We've talked about the concept before, "in-group or outgroup." There can be segments of a church or sometimes whole churches where you are just not perceived as "one of us."
Extreme example. I met a woman in an on-line discussion, something about her posts raised a flag in me, I send a PM, she told me more expecting rejection. She was transgender post operation, her church had kicked her out and her replacement church said she could come only if she never said anything to anyone. 20 years of silence in the shadows. I told her go to an Episcopal church (knew her city well enough to suggest an area). She made an appointment with the priest. He said "of course you are welcome! No you don't have to be silent about who you are!"
I checked in on her a few months later, worried about her adjusting to such a different style from her familiar tradition. She said it was all strange and hard to get used to but she was very happy in her new church.
She had found her tribe. What a spiritual difference that made!
Posted by Graven Image (# 8755) on
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I am thinking of changing churches not because of theology or that the people are not dear to me but because the drive is just getting to long , and hard in winter weather. Age also means thatI can not attend any evening services, for Ash Wed, Christmas Eve, Thanksgiving and such. The problem is that my theology is a mainline denomination and the only churches in my small town are Roman Catholic or Pentecostal. So where do I go? Roman Catholic is more my style but there I would not be welcome to receive communion. So here I stand unable to decide what to do. Do I just not attend church? Perhaps not but for several times as year. Feeling unhappy and confused just now.
Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Graven Image:
I am thinking of changing churches not because of theology or that the people are not dear to me but because the drive is just getting to long , and hard in winter weather. Age also means thatI can not attend any evening services, for Ash Wed, Christmas Eve, Thanksgiving and such. The problem is that my theology is a mainline denomination and the only churches in my small town are Roman Catholic or Pentecostal. So where do I go? Roman Catholic is more my style but there I would not be welcome to receive communion. So here I stand unable to decide what to do. Do I just not attend church? Perhaps not but for several times as year. Feeling unhappy and confused just now.
You actually probably would be welcome to receive communion in the Catholic church, if you explained the situation to the priest - non-Catholic Christians are allowed to do so if their own church is unavailable or inaccessible. Worth asking.
Posted by Sarasa (# 12271) on
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I agree it's worth asking in the Catholic church Graven Image.
I also agree with the tribe thing, though I think one of the main points of a church is learning to live together as a community so we learn how to live better in the rest of the world we meet.
I jumped from being a Quaker to being a Catholic nearly twenty years ago, It was painful, though I did manage to keep friends with those I left behind. I'm happy in my new denomination, but haven't really found a church that suts me in since I left the one I was received in when we moved away from the area.
If you do move expect it to take a long time to recover. I thought I was fine, but ended up in tears when I had an argument with someone in our local Meeting House (I was there for a social event), who to me embodied all the reasons I'd left the Quakers in the first place.
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
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Coming back to the friends and social aspect ...
Baptist Trainfan observed upthread that church relationships can be similar to work relationships in the sense that they can be transitory and based on 'function'/common purpose ...
I think that's true - and equally true of friendships forged in 'affinity groups' of whatever kind - be it the Model Railway Club, an historical re-enactment society, chess club, golf club, sporting group, orchestra, choir or whatever else.
However, many churches - particularly those that stress the value of 'covenanted' relationships of some kind - as many of the UK 'new churches' did - and probably still do in a more flexible and less rigid kind of way - pitch themselves as offering rather more than that in terms of the depth and quality of relationships.
Consequently, it can be hard for people to leave such churches or for them to forge a similar level of relationships elsewhere as and when they move on.
I've never been divorced, but leaving the church I was in for 18 years is the nearest thing I can think of to how that must feel. That might sound extreme - but that's how it felt.
Also, with groups that stress a particularly close sense of fellowship and belonging, there can be a sense of let-down and disappointment from those who leave that nobody contacts them or tries to keep in touch.
That didn't happen with us ... we remained on good terms with people and to be fair, most of our 'real' friends also left or moved on from that church to other settings at some point.
I visited this particular church last year - for the first time in 15 years - and it was great to see and catch-up with people ... but I very much felt like an 'observer' rather than a participant as my 'style' and ethos has diverged from theirs over the years. They're still great people ... but I had a sense of a group that had been through the mill, been round the block far too many times and who were hanging onto a mirage vision despite the odds ... the triumph of hope over experience.
There was something both admirable and tragic about it at one and the same time. They are a shadow of their former selves, but the rhetoric remains the same ...
Posted by leftfieldlover (# 13467) on
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I went to the largest of the seven (yes 7!) churches in the benefice last Sunday. Unlike the church I attended on my first Sunday in a new benefice, this time there were several people I knew from my old church who had left over the years for various reasons. One guy in fact attends both churches, but has the same feelings as me about the 'old' church. However, even as I am wondering whether or not I made the right decision, something happens which makes me know that I did the right thing. In a nutshell, I do not approve of the things/comments the incumbent of my 'old' church puts on Facebook or indeed his style of churchmanship (NOT liberal) or in fact his ideas for the church, which he is prepared to carry out in the face of much upset. I could say more, but I won't!
Concerning the social aspect. I am still attending the same Bible Study Group - I asked the others if they minded and they are happy for me to stay. A lot of my old friends attend the same secular activities, so it will be interesting to see how they respond when they see me. Some know I have moved on, but not all of them.
[ 12. January 2016, 15:25: Message edited by: leftfieldlover ]
Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on
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Glad to hear you're feeling good about your decision, LFL. Hope everything works out with your new church.
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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