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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Quaking
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
OK, I have been considering for quite some time whether the Quakers would be the right place for me.
Theologically, I think I have a good level of theological agreement with them. The lack of liturgy and structure is a positive, in my mind. The real problem has been that sitting around in silence is not really my style.
But I am starting to reconsider. Especially having spent a long weekend on retreat, which was not silent, but did have time being quiet and calm. I am starting to think I might be able to cope and find something God in it.
I think I am not looking for a church to be very involved in, more a place to meet with God.
So are there any Quakers, ex-Quakers Quaker-curious shipmates? What are the good and bad aspects?
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
All I can suggest is that you taste and see. And go to more than one Meeting while you are doing it. The first time I went, I felt I had arrived where I was supposed to be.
I have fallen behind a bit since, for various reasons, applicable only to me.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
Yes, it felt like home to me as well - still does even though I only go once in a blue moon as I live a long way away. The real bliss is the occasional totally silent meeting.
As above I'd recommend trying a few different Meetings as they do vary in their feeling.
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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moonfruit
Shipmate
# 15818
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Posted
I attended Quaker meetings for some 3 or 4 years, getting on for 10 years ago now. I found that it was a place where I met profoundly with God - I particularly had a couple of deep experiences of prayer, I guess you'd call it, and the insights from those times are still precious to me.
I've ended up in the Anglican church - I think ultimately the Quaker experience wasn't sufficiently structured for me, but it was an incredibly valuable time of my life that led me to be the person I am today. And I still turn to Quaker Faith and Practice for wisdom and advice!
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All I know is that you came and made beauty from my mess.
Posts: 180 | From: Just outside the M25 | Registered: Aug 2010
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Tree Bee
Ship's tiller girl
# 4033
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Posted
Meeting for worship can fly by. And it's rarely silent in my experience.
Give it a go.
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"Any fool can make something complicated. It takes a genius to make it simple."
— Woody Guthrie
http://saysaysay54.wordpress.com
Posts: 5257 | From: me to you. | Registered: Feb 2003
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agingjb
Shipmate
# 16555
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Posted
I always hoped that a Friends meeting would be within my range, and one turned up recently and locally each month as a satellite of a larger weekly meeting somewhat out of my range.
I have attended twice. My experience was positive.
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Refraction Villanelles
Posts: 464 | From: Southern England | Registered: Jul 2011
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The Intrepid Mrs S
Shipmate
# 17002
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Posted
I went to one once, with a friend. My experience was that the quiet was fine, I could sit there and pray or recite worship songs in my head - but then someone would interrupt with something that *they* thought was important but which meant nothing to me, which I found intensely irritating.
My two-pennorth only: your mileage may - and probably will - vary.
Mrs. S, all for silence at the right time
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Don't get your knickers in a twist over your advancing age. It achieves nothing and makes you walk funny.
Prayer should be our first recourse, not our last resort
'Lord, please give us patience. NOW!'
Posts: 1464 | From: Neither here nor there | Registered: Mar 2012
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starbelly
but you can call me Neil
# 25
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Posted
I am visiting our local Quakers in a few Sundays time, I will report back our experiences!
Neil
Posts: 6009 | From: High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire. | Registered: May 2001
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
There is a trick to bringing other people's ministry into your worship, whether it means anything to you or not, or even if it seems to diminish what you have brought with you as important (and unspoken), as has happened to me. You recognise that it has been so important to them that they have been driven to their feet to offer it to the Meeting, and you offer it, and your reaction, whatever it is, to God, Who, one believes, inspired the ministry in some way or other.
You may have heard the term "daffodil ministry": pertinent at this time of year. You can probably guess how it goes, as I am sure that it happens in many places of worship. Or the one about the elderly lady who saw a squirrel on the way to Meeting, and the child who mutters "and I'm sure she's going to say it reminds her of Jesus". All welcome.
[ 17. March 2016, 14:10: Message edited by: Penny S ]
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
I'm a Quaker who has been on the Ship for a long time. Friends tend to feel that the Spirit will lead each of us to the place we belong, so I encourage you to stay open and in a listening frame of mind (similar to what you report from your retreat) to any prompting you receive. You may find a home with us or you may find that a sojourn with us helps you discern your next step.
Here is a link to the unprogrammed worship style with helpful insights http://www.bloomingtonfriends.org/texts/worship.html
Here is a link to one version of our traditional testimonies (keep in mind that we value an individual relationship with the Divine, so there is no rule about how one relates or lives out these testimonies) http://www.lancsquakers.org.uk/testimonies.php
Also, it needs to be noted that Quakers have different worship styles in various places in the world (most notable, Kenya--which has the world's largest population of Quakers--and the US, which has 4 denominations of Quakers)
You may email me at any time with questions. I am happy to answer them and do not make a practice of trying to convince anyone to adopt the Quaker way if their inner guide is not providing them with a clear leading.
Note: I say email rather than PM because I am caring for my 94 year old mother and can't always get to the ship on a regular basis.
I've heard from some people that the lack of liturgy and codified doctrine is hard to overcome initially, but I've also heard that there is more space for personal connection. It will all depend on how you feel after trying for a while.
sabine
[ 17. March 2016, 14:36: Message edited by: sabine ]
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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Intrepid Mrs S:
I went to one once, with a friend. My experience was that the quiet was fine, I could sit there and pray or recite worship songs in my head - but then someone would interrupt with something that *they* thought was important but which meant nothing to me, which I found intensely irritating.
Friends have a perspective on this which is helpful if you feel someone has given vocal ministry that is irritating or interrupts your connection with God: Not every vocal ministry is actually meant for every person. What may seem like an interruption to me may well be the very thing that will spiritually feed the person sitting next to me. The skill is in knowing how to let go of unwelcome vocal ministry as it comes.
sabine
[ 17. March 2016, 14:47: Message edited by: sabine ]
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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
sabine - thank you. I will check out those links, and email if I have anything else to ask.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
You may also want to dip into this: http://qfp.quaker.org.uk
Advices & Queries is a good place to start. This has always been one I remember:
quote:
Do you respect that of God in everyone though it may be expressed in unfamiliar ways or be difficult to discern? Each of us has a particular experience of God and each must find the way to be true to it. When words are strange or disturbing to you, try to sense where they come from and what has nourished the lives of others. Listen patiently and seek the truth which other people’s opinions may contain for you. Avoid hurtful criticism and provocative language. Do not allow the strength of your convictions to betray you into making statements or allegations that are unfair or untrue. Think it possible that you may be mistaken
[ 17. March 2016, 19:20: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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agingjb
Shipmate
# 16555
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Posted
Indeed, Advices and Queries. I'd add:
"Receive the vocal ministry of others in a tender and creative spirit. Reach for the meaning deep within it, recognising that even if it is not God’s word for you, it may be so for others."
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Refraction Villanelles
Posts: 464 | From: Southern England | Registered: Jul 2011
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
...Advices & Queries is a good place to start. This has always been one I remember:
quote:
... Think it possible that you may be mistaken
This little bit is so important for me, I can't tell you how much.
I keep a copy on A&Q on my desk here, it is full of amazing insights.
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
I have attended some Quaker meetings in Christchurch, Wellington and Dunedin which I found interesting. The people were brilliant and quietly welcoming without being overwhelmingly so. I admire the Quaker peace testimony and their approach to social issues and did consider at one time investigating becoming a member of a Meeting, rather that just an attender.
At the time I found not having music to be a barrier to me making a greater commitment. (I was surprised by how much I missed it).
I think in the back of my mind there has always been the thought that if the church I currently attend becomes more conservative then I'll head for the Quakers again. (I attend a very liberal local church within a more conservative denomination).
Huia
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
. . . .did consider at one time investigating becoming a member of a Meeting, rather that just an attender.
In case you ever want to attend Quaker Meeting again, please know that Attender is a bone fide status, not a "just" status. Some people are Attenders their entire lives. I can't speak for the people of the Meetings you have mentioned, but I doubt they would think any less of you as an Attender.
sabine
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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
Thanks Sabine. I think one of the things I found particularly welcoming was that there was something in the ambience that made me feel immediately "at home".
The weird thing about the Dunedin Meeting was that I went thinking I knew no one in the city, and found I had already met eight of the ten people, though in different cities and contexts. New Zealand is known for it's interconnectedness, but even so that seemed over the odds ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) .
Huia
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I think one thing that I notice is that nobody I know ever has a bad word about them. For some people, it is not the right place, but everyone seems to have been glad to experience them.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
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Posted
I've started attending Bolton Friends Meeting House which I'm greatly enjoying. There is a real sense of freedom worshipping without liturgy or creed. Some weeks are quite 'wordy', others less so. I'm not sure if it will prove to be my permanent refuge, but I'm surprised how much I'm looking forward each Sunday.
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
This thread reminded me I had been thinking about catching up with the Quakers in Christchurch, but putting it off because I wasn't sure where they had moved to after their Meeting House was damaged in the quakes).
Anyway on Easter Day I was on the bus heading for church and looked up from my book to see the new Meeting House about 45 minutes walk from my home ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif) (and obviously on my bus route).
The rational part of my mind (although not my strongest point) dismisses such happenings as mere co-incidence, but it still feels like a gift.
Huia
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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Hail Mary
Apprentice
# 18531
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Posted
I was an attender for many years, and I found Quaker Meeting to be like a drink of cool water that you can feel going into every cell of your being.
However, at the Quaker Meeting that I went to, I became aware that I was never truly accepted. It took me a long time to figure out what was wrong, but I was never one of the gang. It was a pretty small Weekly Meeting, so this isn't representative of Friends at all.
I still find a great deal of inspiration in the Advices and Queries, and a lot of the Quaker concerns, and was very active in the Alternatives to Violence Project. There's a lot of really great Quaker work being done, but I don't think I'll ever return, because being shunned in a subtle way is not an experience I can accept from my church.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. ~ Jack Layton
Posts: 35 | From: Canada | Registered: Jan 2016
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starbelly
but you can call me Neil
# 25
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Posted
I visited the Wycombe Quakers on Sunday morning, with a few of my friends from 'Skeptics in the Pub'. I think we terrified them when 8 of us walked in, but we were warmly welcomed and went into the main meeting room and took our seats.
After 25 minutes of silence a few people spoke, and we were referred to a few times, one member read a passage from a book he had been reading from an atheist Quaker that he thought we might find interesting, we heard the experience of a gentleman who had been on a retreat the week before, and a few other people read short quotes from the big red quaker book!
Afterwards we had some excellent coffee and were treated like celebrities!
Every single one of us sceptical people said we would definitely go back as "attenders" from time to time, and all had a super morning and met lovely people and had some fascinating conversations.
Neil
Posts: 6009 | From: High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire. | Registered: May 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
starbelly: 'Skeptics in the Pub'.
(There is an island in the mouth of the Amazon River, where people believe that UFOs have landed in the fifties. There are a number of bars along the beach, all with the obligatory statues of little green men that tourists can take pictures with. In all of these bars, you'll find locals with faded news articles and pictures proving that these landings were real. I personally find that my scepticism decreases after couple of beers, and at a certain point I find myself ready to believe anything ![[Smile]](smile.gif) )
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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starbelly
but you can call me Neil
# 25
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
starbelly: 'Skeptics in the Pub'.
...after couple of beers, and at a certain point I find myself ready to believe anything )
That's why we meet in the pub, if our scepticism can survive that, it can survive anything!
Posts: 6009 | From: High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire. | Registered: May 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I Quaked this morning.
The meeting was silent throughout, apart from an early very deep message "Daddy, can I take my skipping rope". Which, despite it being unexpected, did get me thinking for a while.
And yes, they are lovely people. I will be back. Maybe not next week and not every week, but I will be back.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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starbelly
but you can call me Neil
# 25
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I Quaked this morning.
The meeting was silent throughout, apart from an early very deep message "Daddy, can I take my skipping rope". Which, despite it being unexpected, did get me thinking for a while.
And yes, they are lovely people. I will be back. Maybe not next week and not every week, but I will be back.
Great to hear! My friends are still talking about our visit, it had quite an effect on people!
Posts: 6009 | From: High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire. | Registered: May 2001
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
... The meeting was silent throughout ...
As the wife of a church musician, who's been steeped in church music for most of my life, the concept of an entirely silent church service is completely foreign to me. I have no doubt that attending such services can leave you with a feeling of peace and fulfilment - I just can't quite understand how.
And (to display my total ignorance of such matters and meaning absolutely no offence) if it's completely silent, how can you tell when the service is over?
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
The time and the elders shaking hands usually.
Also, completely silent meetings are rare - I've also been at one where someone started to sing, though I admit that is unusual.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Tree Bee
Ship's tiller girl
# 4033
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
The time and the elders shaking hands usually.
Also, completely silent meetings are rare - I've also been at one where someone started to sing, though I admit that is unusual.
We have 2 or 3 brave souls who occasionally sing. If it's a familiar song it can become a group thing, wonderful.
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"Any fool can make something complicated. It takes a genius to make it simple."
— Woody Guthrie
http://saysaysay54.wordpress.com
Posts: 5257 | From: me to you. | Registered: Feb 2003
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
The only Quaker meetings I've attended have been completely silent. Perhaps I ought to attend some more so I can check out my reaction to non-silent ones ...
I'm glad I've attended and would do so again, but I think I'm rather too fond of liturgy and so on to abandon it in favour of the Quaker way. Not that I begrudge the Quaker way to anyone else.
As for nobody having a bad word to say about the Quakers ... you will hear some - and some here aboard Ship too. ExclamationMark finds them a tad 'passive-aggressive' and feels that when it comes to ecumenical interaction, Quakers are rather too prone to expect everyone else to bend over backwards to accommodate them ...
But if that is the case, then the same could be said for almost any other group in my experience ...
For myself, I can't find anything to carp at - provided one takes it on its own terms and doesn't attempt to judge them as to why they don't do this, that or the other that other groups might.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I am writing a blog about my experience and how I have got where I am. I have always met God in noise and music. While that is still the case, I can also set aside some time to worship in a different - and relaxed - way.
My current thinking is that I have had enough of "services". I have sung every song worth singing (and many not), I have heard every sermon, I have experienced liturgy (formal and not), and it bores me. I don't need to go to another service - ever.
But I do need to engage with God. I have found ways of doing this myself over the last few years, and it may be some connection with Quakerism will be the right direction. At least for now.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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jacobsen
seeker
# 14998
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tree Bee:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
The time and the elders shaking hands usually.
Also, completely silent meetings are rare - I've also been at one where someone started to sing, though I admit that is unusual.
We have 2 or 3 brave souls who occasionally sing. If it's a familiar song it can become a group thing, wonderful.
This is a well known Quaker hymn.
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But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.
Posts: 8040 | From: Æbleskiver country | Registered: Aug 2009
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
We had that a church in February. It played itself in my head for weeks after. It is one of my favourite hymns.
\huia
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
...
As for nobody having a bad word to say about the Quakers ... you will hear some - and some here aboard Ship too. ExclamationMark finds them a tad 'passive-aggressive' and feels that when it comes to ecumenical interaction, Quakers are rather too prone to expect everyone else to bend over backwards to accommodate them ...
...
Admin Tiara On
Putting words into other people’s mouths is a nasty little habit and one you’ve been pulled up on numerous times. People want to know what you think. Not what you think someone else thinks. Everyone here is perfectly capable of voicing their own thoughts and opinions. They do not want or need your help.
But voicing someone’s opinion on their behalf on a thread they’re not participating on seems to be a new, unwanted development.
This really needs to stop. It’s become really tiresome and disruptive.
Admin Tiara Off
Tubbs
[ 19. April 2016, 10:28: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Tree Bee
Ship's tiller girl
# 4033
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jacobsen:
quote:
Originally posted by Tree Bee:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
The time and the elders shaking hands usually.
Also, completely silent meetings are rare - I've also been at one where someone started to sing, though I admit that is unusual.
We have 2 or 3 brave souls who occasionally sing. If it's a familiar song it can become a group thing, wonderful.
This is a well known Quaker hymn.
That's beautiful; I haven't heard it before.
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"Any fool can make something complicated. It takes a genius to make it simple."
— Woody Guthrie
http://saysaysay54.wordpress.com
Posts: 5257 | From: me to you. | Registered: Feb 2003
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
New on me too, I think the most famous quaker origin hymn is probably Dear Lord & Father of Mankind (I think it is based on a rather longer poem that includes something about soma.)
There is a quaker songbook, though I've not got a copy. Our meeting used to do singing after meeting for worship with it once a month.
This one I think: https://universalistfriends.org/bookstore/sing-in-the-spirit-quaker-songbook
[ 19. April 2016, 19:41: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
Although "How Can I Keep From Singing" is often sung at Quaker hymn-sings in the U.S., it doesn't seem to have Quaker origins. It can be found in Quaker hymnals, though, and was made popular by Pete Seeger.
Wiki
ETA: Doublethink has the link to one Quaker songbook used in the US. There are others.
sabine
[ 21. April 2016, 14:54: Message edited by: sabine ]
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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Reading this thread, I wonder if there is a difference between Quaker meetings in silence and walking somewhere in silence for worship. I guess it's the communal experience. Working with people all week, I don't crave communal experiences.
[/continuing tangent]According to Wikipedia How can I keep from Singing? was not originally a Quaker hymn but has been adopted by the Quakers. There are versions by Enya and Pete Seeger on you tube, so it's fairly well known. I knew it, but who knows where I've heard it or sung it - church, folk club, youth work, school, any school, albums by Enya or Pete Seeger.[/tangent]
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Reading this thread, I wonder if there is a difference between Quaker meetings in silence and walking somewhere in silence for worship. I guess it's the communal experience. Working with people all week, I don't crave communal experiences.
Fascinated by this comment because it reflects something very close to where I am at present.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Lothlorien
Ship's Grandma
# 4927
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Posted
CK and Jengie, I find this an interesting thought too, worth exploring. However, it is a tangent to this thread. Perhaps one of you could frame a thread for Purgatory where this could be dicussed in more detail than the thread currently allows? Thanks
Lothlorien. AS Host
[ 24. April 2016, 23:03: Message edited by: Lothlorien ]
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