Ship of Fools: all the good in me is dead

Thread: all the good in me is dead Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

This is not about one person, but the fact that we are now talking about one person is a step forward compared to describing them as nameless marauding migrants.

This man is crying in a morgue. His two small boys and wife lie dead on the slab. They died because he is a Syrian. He left his home town in fear of bloody-thirsty killers. He left Turkey in fear of a people who hate Kurds. He now has nothing to do but take his family back to Syria, and most likely cover their bodies with his own.

This family sits on a train outside Keleti Railway Station. Jostled by police wearing riot gear, they are kept on a sweltering train without water. Eventually the train moves and the family is taken away, to a destination unknown, out of sight of the international media.

Meanwhile the politicians all make speeches and the newsmen all take notes. Telling their people at home that they're giving an "immense contribution" to the refugee crisis - at the same time doing everything they can to avoid doing anything whatsoever.

What about Russia? What about the Gulf States? What about.. who fucking cares about your what-abouts?

What is this - 1930? For fucks sake.

Posted by Erroneous Monk (# 10858) on :

I don't want to blame someone else. I want to do something myself to make it better. But I don't know what to do. What's the best thing to do?

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

There is probably nothing you can do except sit there and cry for the world we've created.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

There are plenty of people who are now working to help refugees in different ways. I know people who are going to Calais to take stuff to the people there; there are people with petitions; people knitting clothes; buying baby-carriers for people in Kos; many demonstrations have been called in the next few days; local groups are springing up to help refugees; thousands of Germans are taking food and clothes to newly arrived Syrians.

I take heart from this. Many politicians have lost their moral bearings and their compassion.

[ 03. September 2015, 16:06: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

Don't mourn; organize.

Posted by Erroneous Monk (# 10858) on :

I've now seen your All Saints thread and volunteered for my local group to help with sorting and packing donations this weekend.

Thank you.

Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :

There is, reportedly, someone to blame.

It shames me as a Canadian to admit it, but there was a group in Canada trying to sponsor this family to come to Canada. But it met so many government-created roadblocks (created since the present government came to power about 10 years ago) that the process was either totally frustrated or was still mired in bureaucracy.

And the government -- like that of the UK, taking David Cameron as its representative -- is saying that what matters is dealing with the causes of the refugee crisis, and so ignoring the fact that these are real people. dying in real time. And both Prime Ministers are quietly but definitely said to be Christians.

We're in the middle of an election campaign in which this has already become an issue in Canada. I'd think that people outside the country might seek ways of letting the Canadian government (the diplomats) know just what this has done to the image of the country abroad -- they'll pass the message along.

John

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

I suppose we could do what 10,000 Icelanders have done in response to their government's paltry proposal.

Action like this isn't natural for politicians because they pander to the lowest common denominator, but I'd like to think that lager-swilling, Sun reading, white-van drivers* aren't in the majority, and that there is some generosity and kindness around.

*If they can indulge in stereotyping, so can I.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

Expecting politicians to do something that is morally correct, but doesn't make them richer is a waste of time.

But do we really have to have a picture of a dead child to make us do something? Are we that sick? I never want to see pictures of dead children.

There are things we can do - mainly local stuff to make a small difference, all of which makes a big difference.

Oh yes, and get those heartless, manipulative bastards out of power. In this country, we have not lost our caring nature, our compassion for others, our generosity of spirit. Sadly, we have leaders and spokespeople who have sold their souls for power.

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

It seems to me that the correct response is not collecting stuff to drive to somewhere-or-other but being prepared to welcome the bedraggled, war-worn, emotionally broken stranger into our own home and our own lives.

Being prepared to say fuck you to the powers and structures and policies that promote middle-class sub-Christian values - which amount to ensuring that we're aOK whilst others around us struggle and die. Being prepared to stand out and stand up against the crowd of fucking idiots who seem to think they've a God-given right to enjoy lives of luxury whilst others suffer.

I hope this marks the downfall of UKIP and all who share and promote the ideology of hate.

Thank goodness for the Germans (and Swedes, Icelanders and others) who have shamed the rest of Europe with generosity.

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

Apparently the early reports suggesting they'd applied for asylum in Canada were incorrect. Just FYI.

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

The National Post report is that their Canadian family had made the application for admission and the file was rejected. In my experience (having worked in the field many many years ago), an MP's written request handed to the minister in person is taken very seriously and handled expeditiously. Back in the 1980s, MPs did this very rarely and in my former RL I had to follow up on requests from opposition members (another colleague dealt with Liberal MPs) and with one exception, they were brought in ASAP. I was a bit surprised that Mr Alexander did not do this, but perhaps these things have changed.

Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :

Latest story on CBC says they did and were refused. Sponsor was the father's sister in BC.

Father was offered unconditional immediate citizenship, even before his son was buried (his wife and other son drowned and their bodies are still at sea). He refused.

Announcement of an important declaration about the security and integrity of the Canadian immigration system by a very senior Conservative Minister, scheduled for today as part of the election campaign has now been cancelled. The minister of immigration has been recalled to his office from the campaign trail. THe prime minister cancelled a news conference planned for this morning (five questions only), but will be making an important announcement later today.

If it weren't so tragic, it would be funny.

John

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:

I hope this marks the downfall of UKIP and all who share and promote the ideology of hate.

So you think it was an ideology of love from new Labour that sent bombs and bullets into Iraq to de-throne Sadam ?
An action directly leading to the destabalization of half the middle- fuckin-East and the current mass exodus of civilians.

I applaud you for offering your home to a migrant. I might be inclined to the same. But then the question arises, would we be prepared to take another next month, another two the month after that..............?

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

@OP
There's a world weariness in your post. Is there an angel weeping or holding a sword? Or both? Either way, what do you expect? A miracle or something?

Do these things just happen? Or is there a insidious plan motivated by the methods of disaster capitalism?

We need something that will light each tiny speck in the human kaleidoscope with hope. No point in waiting on a miracle or for Jesus' brother Bob.

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :

What saddens me even more is that in nine days' time something else will have taken over as the topic of the day. I was fundraising for refugees this time last year, whose stories were as harrowing, but few wanted to know.

Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :

So it now appears that some of the reports were wrong and Canada didn't do anything wrong in this specific case.

However, the attention to the case in Canada, partly because of the early incorrect reports, has had what seems to be a major impact on the election campaign. People are now actually talking about treatment of refugees and our response to the crisis in Syria.

It is unfortunate but true that it is a lot easier to focus on one real person than on 100,000 equally deserving people in a group. This poor boy, his mother and brother -- and the surviving family, seem to have done this in Canada.

John

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

This.

quote:
You want to be outraged? Be outraged at your own politicians. Hold your government accountable for its foreign policy in the Middle East. March and demonstrates in the streets of your nations’ capital. Ayla is dead because George Bush; Assad; ISIS; European angst about refugees. Hold your government accountable for its action on refugee issues.

You want to be part of the solution? Put pressure in whatever way you can on the UN to step up, both in Syria, in the immediate peripheral countries, and in refugee receiving countries. Same for NGOs and relief organizations. Stop wasting your money on the orphanages and the youth groups to Uganda or Cambodia. For goodness sake, stop buying shoes and trinkets from organizations with wacky programme models, and do support organizations who actually work with Syrian IDPs and refugees.

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

If the UN does anything, the USA should pay the bill for it because it destabilized Iraq in the first place.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

A UKIPper has tried to apologise for simply saying what UKIP have always stood for and always will.

The problem is that many millions of people in this country agree with him 100%. Selfish bastards.

Posted by Stumbling Pilgrim (# 7637) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
A UKIPper has tried to apologise for simply saying what UKIP have always stood for and always will.

The problem is that many millions of people in this country agree with him 100%. Selfish bastards.

And another one, or at least someone claiming to be a UKIP supporter, has posted a video on YouTube peddling the story about them trying to get to Europe (wrong) so the father could get new teeth. To be fair he's not the only one spouting that drivel. (Sorry Hosts, I realise you have to watch that - feel free to delete if you wish) [Help]

Posted by jbohn (# 8753) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
If the UN does anything, the USA should pay the bill for it because it destabilized Iraq in the first place.

Historically speaking - when the UN does anything, we foot the vast majority of the bill in any case.

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
If the UN does anything, the USA should pay the bill for it because it destabilized Iraq in the first place.

Hear hear to that.

But hey yeah, in the meantime let's all use those wicked Ukip lot as the whipping boy and make ourselves feel a whole lot better.

Posted by Bibliophile (# 18418) on :

Much of the blame for these drownings can be placed directly at the door of sanctimonious narcissistic pseudo-compassionate liberals. It is not possible for Western countries to host everyone who wants to live in them. If they did then half the population of Africa and Asia would move to Europe and the host countries would simply be overwhelmed and collapse.

Everyone understands this. Where the disagreement lies is in how to manage the process. One is to recognise the reality that there has to be limits on the numbers accepted, have a legal process to manage it and turning away people who try to come by illegal routes. Australia has successfully managed to stop the drownings off its coast in this way.

Another way it to pretend that there are no limits, say that more or less anyone who arrives by any route can stay in Europe legally and indeed that anyone rescued en route will not be sent back but will also be taken to Europe and allowed to stay. At the same these rules are put in place when it is perfectly well known that there are far fewer legal routes than there are people willing to come to stay. The limits are therefore put in place not by legal limitations but by limiting it to those people willing to go down the expensive and dangerous route of being smuggled in. This then leads to more and more of the kinds of tragedies we see in the news.

The kind of sanctimonious and narcissistic liberal attitude we see displayed here by people like mr cheesy and Sioni Sais has a direct share of the blame for these disasters.

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Stumbling Pilgrim:
(Sorry Hosts, I realise you have to watch that - feel free to delete if you wish)

I compromised and watched it with the sound off.

Posted by Bibliophile (# 18418) on :

And for the record UKIP has been consistently against the military interventions and destabalisations in Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afganistan and elsewhere that have been the other main driving factor of this crisis.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
It seems to me that the correct response is not collecting stuff to drive to somewhere-or-other but being prepared to welcome the bedraggled, war-worn, emotionally broken stranger into our own home and our own lives.

This.

If I were a refugee I would want someone to care for me until I could care for myself again.

We were once stranded in another country with nothing but the clothes we stood up in (it had all been stolen including the money and passports). I realised then that we all have a deep need for one thing - people who care when we are in need!

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

Never pass an opportunity to show how much of a fucking pissant you are, eh, Biblofascist.

Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :

quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
So it now appears that some of the reports were wrong and Canada didn't do anything wrong in this specific case.

However, the attention to the case in Canada, partly because of the early incorrect reports, has had what seems to be a major impact on the election campaign. People are now actually talking about treatment of refugees and our response to the crisis in Syria.

It is unfortunate but true that it is a lot easier to focus on one real person than on 100,000 equally deserving people in a group. This poor boy, his mother and brother -- and the surviving family, seem to have done this in Canada.

John

In, I suppose, offhand defense of Harper, I am going to speculate that refugees were turned back under Chretien, Mulroney, Trudeau, etc as well. And that some of them likely met unfortunate, albeit unphotographed, demises during their further travels.

Not a Harper supporter at all, but I'm always a little wary when one photograph(and it's usually a photograph) suddenly focuses attention on something that has been going on for a long long time, and people react with "My God, what's this world coming to?" hand-wringing.

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Never pass an opportunity to show how much of a fucking pissant you are, eh, Biblofascist.

Perhaps we could swap him for a refugee. You know, someone more deserving and compassionate.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

We've only got one come out of the woodwork here. In other places, where he would feel more at home, there are many more. I'm not keen on his use of "everybody" as in "everybody knows", and "we" where he singles out mr cheesy and Sioni Sais as examples of people due a string of unpleasant adjectives.

Just to join in, tomorrow I am delivering a bunch of stuff to the Calais Aid people. It's a bit like the end of the chorus of "One man went to mow", ending with a frying pan.

I'm not sure how much good it will do, and until this morning I was not so keen to do anything for the young men, but someone pointed out that they needed to escape being drafted into militia not of their choosing, and I realised the corollary was that if they stayed, weaponless, they would end up in mass graves, probably not after a humane death. It is the job that's nearest.

And I've been trying to work out how I could re-organise my home, but I can't, and I need to keep the ability to put up a friend at short notice if he needs respite. But I feel bad about it.

Posted by Bibliophile (# 18418) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
We've only got one come out of the woodwork here. In other places, where he would feel more at home, there are many more. I'm not keen on his use of "everybody" as in "everybody knows", and "we" where he singles out mr cheesy and Sioni Sais as examples of people due a string of unpleasant adjectives.

I don't like it when organisations like the EU promote policies that result in dead children and then the same people use those same dead children for propaganda. Do you think that's as bad using a pronoun you're not keen on? Thanks for making my point.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:

The kind of sanctimonious and narcissistic liberal attitude we see displayed here by people like mr cheesy and Sioni Sais has a direct share of the blame for these disasters.

In that the policies I wish for are only carried out partially and half-heartedly by governments crying crocodile tears, then that is true.

btw, I'm not a liberal. Or a Liberal and definitely not a US style librul. Do that again and I'll have to borrow one of the host's rusty farm implements.

Posted by Bibliophile (# 18418) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
btw, I'm not a liberal. Or a Liberal and definitely not a US style librul. Do that again and I'll have to borrow one of the host's rusty farm implements.

I'm using the term liberal as a shorthand way of saying 'liberal and anything to the left of liberalism'. Given that ideologies to the left of libaralism (e.g. socialism, marxism etc) tend to be outgrowths of liberalism I don't think its an unjustifiable shorthand. I haven't seen you or mr cheesy criticise 'liberalism' from the right so you both fall into that category.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
btw, I'm not a liberal. Or a Liberal and definitely not a US style librul. Do that again and I'll have to borrow one of the host's rusty farm implements.
I'm using the term liberal as a shorthand way of saying 'liberal and anything to the left of liberalism'. Given that ideologies to the left of libaralism (e.g. socialism, marxism etc) tend to be outgrowths of liberalism I don't think its an unjustifiable shorthand. I haven't seen you or mr cheesy criticise 'liberalism' from the right so you both fall into that category.

Then you are using the term sloppily, but we're used to that. Suggesting that Marxism is an outgrowth of liberalism is so inaccurate as to be laughable, except that we know you are serious and sincere. It is that seriousness, certainty and sincerity that makes you, and others like you, so dangerous because you are blind to your own prejudices and stupidity.

As I may have suggested before, you clearly had very poor potty-training and a lack of affirmation as a child. That has led you to a need to externalise any deficiencies. I'm actually sorry for you.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
Australia has successfully managed to stop the drownings off its coast in this way.

Yeah. And replaced them with rape, children attempting suicide and so forth in detention centres.

But hey, at least they're still alive, right? Well, except for the one that we think was beaten to death by a guard in Papua New Guinea.

I am heartily sick of my government suggesting that stopping the boats represents the sum total of stopping the refugee problem, and that as long as people are still alive somewhere else we don't have to think about what kind of life they are living.

The entire point of the Refugee Convention is a commitment to treat problems in other parts of the world as our problem.

[ 05. September 2015, 00:36: Message edited by: orfeo ]

Posted by Bibliophile (# 18418) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
btw, I'm not a liberal. Or a Liberal and definitely not a US style librul. Do that again and I'll have to borrow one of the host's rusty farm implements.
I'm using the term liberal as a shorthand way of saying 'liberal and anything to the left of liberalism'. Given that ideologies to the left of libaralism (e.g. socialism, marxism etc) tend to be outgrowths of liberalism I don't think its an unjustifiable shorthand. I haven't seen you or mr cheesy criticise 'liberalism' from the right so you both fall into that category.
Then you are using the term sloppily, but we're used to that.

I suppose a better shorthand term for the category 'liberalism plus everything to the left of liberalism' would simply be 'the left', unless you have a better shorthand term for that category you could suggest.

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Suggesting that Marxism is an outgrowth of liberalism is so inaccurate as to be laughable

Of course its accurate. Marx and earlier socialists were all people who supported the liberalism of their time but just didn't think that it went far enough. They supported liberalism's opposition to the right, their criticism of it was that it didn't oppose the right enough.

Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Suggesting that Marxism is an outgrowth of liberalism is so inaccurate as to be laughable
Of course its accurate. Marx and earlier socialists were all people who supported the liberalism of their time but just didn't think that it went far enough. They supported liberalism's opposition to the right, their criticism of it was that it didn't oppose the right enough.

...dude. Just quit now, while you're behind. You don't have to keep digging a deeper hole. Some of us here have read Marx, or radical political theory—the kind of stuff that talks about the "false dichotomy presented by liberal capitalism." If you're trying to equate Sioni et al with Marxists, you very clearly haven't got a fucking clue what either liberalism or Marxism are.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

I've started a Purg thread about what we can/should do to help refugees, migrants, etc.

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
I suppose a better shorthand term for the category 'liberalism plus everything to the left of liberalism' would simply be 'the left', unless you have a better shorthand term for that category you could suggest.

Not-fascists would seem to suffice. Liberalism is not a particularly left-wing ideology.

Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
And for the record UKIP has been consistently against the military interventions and destabalisations in Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afganistan and elsewhere that have been the other main driving factor of this crisis.

They have also been pretty consistently opposed to international aid, which is the only credible alternative to accepting refugees.

Posted by Bibliophile (# 18418) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:

quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
I suppose a better shorthand term for the category 'liberalism plus everything to the left of liberalism' would simply be 'the left', unless you have a better shorthand term for that category you could suggest.
Not-fascists would seem to suffice. Liberalism is not a particularly left-wing ideology.

You sound like one of those people who thinks that anyone to the right of Tony Blair is a fascist.

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

Fuck off and die. Not everyone is a fascist, but you are you prick.

You should be ashamed.

Posted by Bibliophile (# 18418) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:

quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Suggesting that Marxism is an outgrowth of liberalism is so inaccurate as to be laughable
Of course its accurate. Marx and earlier socialists were all people who supported the liberalism of their time but just didn't think that it went far enough. They supported liberalism's opposition to the right, their criticism of it was that it didn't oppose the right enough.
...dude. Just quit now, while you're behind. You don't have to keep digging a deeper hole. Some of us here have read Marx, or radical political theory—the kind of stuff that talks about the "false dichotomy presented by liberal capitalism." If you're trying to equate Sioni et al with Marxists, you very clearly haven't got a fucking clue what either liberalism or Marxism are.

So are you saying that Marx and other 'radical political theorists' ever criticised liberalism on the grounds that 'it goes too far'? Because my very clear impression is that they criticised liberalism from the left i.e. they didn't think it went far enough. I wasn't saying that Sioni Sais and mr cheesy were necessarily marxists but it is fairly clear that any criticisms they have of liberalism are from the left.

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

Caring for refugees is not a Marxist idea. The idea of international legal rights of refugees was encouraged and developed by Conservatives, particularly Tories after the shame of how countries treated those fleeing war and persecution in 1930s Europe.

Not only are you fucking heartless, you have zero political and historical knowledge of the things you pontificate about.

We have a legal and moral responsibility to shelter refugees. Fact.

[ 05. September 2015, 09:36: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

This picture of recent Daily Mail covers came up on my Twitter feed - which sums up the attitude of the UK press.

There was a fascinating interview on the BBC R4 Today programme a few weeks back (11 August) discussing racism in schools following the conviction of a young man for a racially aggravated stabbing. One of the interviewees referred back to the media coverage of the "refugee crisis" and pointed out that was fuelling racism.

Our attitudes to refugees is making life more dangerous for other citizens of the UK.

Posted by Bibliophile (# 18418) on :

mr cheesy

Children are drowning because of policies supported by people like you

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

Like almost all UKIP supporters I have ever heard of, you are functionally illiterate, assign views to people they don't hold, assume a high intellectual standing for your own argument which is totally unwarranted and have a single track mind. In your case you have an additional disadvantage in that you are actually a fascist.

No, I have not created this crisis you pathetic pile of shite. Go live in Hungary, they like your lies there.

Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
mr cheesy

Children are drowning because of policies supported by people like you

Yeah, while withdrawing international aid and taking Britain out of a bloc that could theoretically provide a coordinated response will have no discernible effect on people's lives whatsoever.

(Yes, I agree the EU has been fairly crap at coordinating a response. It's hard to see how pulling out would make Europe more coordinated.)

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
mr cheesy

Children are drowning because of policies supported by people like you

You are one of the worst arguers on the Ship for a while. Really. All the nuance of a Wiggles song.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Caring for refugees is not a Marxist idea. The idea of international legal rights of refugees was encouraged and developed by Conservatives, particularly Tories after the shame of how countries treated those fleeing war and persecution in 1930s Europe.

It is also a biblical imperative Leviticus 19:34 about caring for the stranger/'alien'

[ 05. September 2015, 14:24: Message edited by: leo ]

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

Bibliophile posts:

quote:
Much of the blame for these drownings can be placed directly at the door of sanctimonious narcissistic pseudo-compassionate liberals.

Aside from the odd wording (are non-pseudo-compassionate liberals exempt from this judgement? do pseudo-compassionate conservatives get a free pass?), I wonder if Bibliophile has ignored the distinction between push and pull in migratory movement. Given that there are a few million who have left Syria for (reasonable IMHO) fear of their lives, it strikes me that push is the predominant factor here.

Eventually, the more ambitious will become less satisfied with life in tents, and seek to support their families. This has been made more serious by the dilatory approach to resettlement which was, at least until this weak, the flavour-du-jour of many western governments. There's a lot of blame to go around here, and it's unfair to put it all on the pseudo-compassionate liberals-- I know some self-satisfied conservatives and a couple of xenophobic trotskyites I would include.

O. I quite forgot the role of human traffickers (which our US shipmates know under the term of coyotes, and in western Canada as snakeheads). I'd like to put a bit of blame on them as well- it's a trade sufficiently vile that they cannot simply claim that they were participating in free-enterprise market-driven opportunities.

Posted by Bibliophile (# 18418) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
mr cheesy

Children are drowning because of policies supported by people like you
You are one of the worst arguers on the Ship for a while. Really. All the nuance of a Wiggles song.

Well is that a less nuanced statement than

quote:
I hope this marks the downfall of UKIP and all who share and promote the ideology of hate

And it is true that a massive pull factor is created when Merkel and the EU set up rules that say that anyone who arrives by any route, legal or illegal, effectively has leave to remain. That is giving full encouragement to the people traffickers.

Posted by Bibliophile (# 18418) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
you are actually a fascist ... Go live in Hungary, they like your lies there.

This is what I mean by people who label everyone to the right of Tony Blair is labelled 'fascist'. Victor Orban and Fidesz get labelled 'fascist' simply because they are to the right of Tony Blair and David Cameron. Maybe people in central European countries like Poland and Hungary tend to vote for parties of the right because not so long ago they had the experience of what it was like to be under a dictatorship of the hard left.

Posted by Bibliophile (# 18418) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
I wonder if Bibliophile has ignored the distinction between push and pull in migratory movement. Given that there are a few million who have left Syria for (reasonable IMHO) fear of their lives, it strikes me that push is the predominant factor here.

Oh yes the push factor. And what created this push factor. Various neo-conservative western interventions in the middle east. And what is 'neo-conservatism'? Well it originated with anti-communist liberals of the 1960s and 1970s like Democratic Senator Henry 'Scoop' Jackson, in other words the centre left. It has been enthusiastically supported by center left leaders like Tony Blair and Barak Obama. It is not a movement of the right.

[ 05. September 2015, 15:09: Message edited by: Bibliophile ]

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
And it is true that a massive pull factor is created when Merkel and the EU set up rules that say that anyone who arrives by any route, legal or illegal, effectively has leave to remain. That is giving full encouragement to the people traffickers.

No such thing as "illegal entry" for a refugee fleeing war and persecution in international law.

UN Convention on Status of Refugees 1951 Article 31.

So this idea of Cameron that he can determine who is or is not a "genuine" refugee on the basis that they might have bribed someone for travel is entirely bogus.

And of course it is also totally immoral. Someone is desperate enough to sell all they have on the most dangerous journey.. but somehow this invalidates their claim to protection.

That's total shite. Not surprising, coming from you, of course.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:

quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
I wonder if Bibliophile has ignored the distinction between push and pull in migratory movement. Given that there are a few million who have left Syria for (reasonable IMHO) fear of their lives, it strikes me that push is the predominant factor here.
Oh yes the push factor. And what created this push factor. Various neo-conservative western interventions in the middle east. And what is 'neo-conservatism'? Well it originated with anti-communist liberals of the 1960s and 1970s like Democratic Senator Henry 'Scoop' Jackson, in other words the centre left. It has been enthusiastically supported by center left leaders like Tony Blair and Barak Obama. It is not a movement of the right.

Obama and Blair can only possibly be centre-leftists in your opinion and of, I suppose, Fox News. Maybe some columnists of the Telegraph too. Scoop Jackson was, like everyone in US Congress and all but very few in our Parliament, opposed to Soviet suzerainty over Eastern Europe rule and expansion elsewhere, although not so critical of American and British influence overseas.

To be honest, whether a policy or person is labelled left, right or centre is of little consequence as these terms are relative to ones own position.

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
This is what I mean by people who label everyone to the right of Tony Blair is labelled 'fascist'. Victor Orban and Fidesz get labelled 'fascist' simply because they are to the right of Tony Blair and David Cameron. Maybe people in central European countries like Poland and Hungary tend to vote for parties of the right because not so long ago they had the experience of what it was like to be under a dictatorship of the hard left.

Nope, it'll be because he says things like this:

quote:
"I think we have a right to decide that we do not want a large number of Muslim people in our country. We do not like the consequences

and this

quote:
"The majority are not Christians but Muslims. That is an important question because Europe and European culture have Christian roots.

"Or is it not already, and in itself, alarming that Europe's Christian culture is barely able to uphold Europe's own Christian values?"

That's the kind of childish twaddle we'd expect from a pathetic small-brained anonymous idiot on a bulletin board, not the leader of an EU nation with a dramatic history of oppression of the weak.

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
You sound like one of those people who thinks that anyone to the right of Tony Blair is a fascist.

On the contrary, Cameron is largely a liberal too, hence the legalisation of equal marriage. Even people like David Davis are liberals. The out and out fascists are people like IDS and Michael Howard.

Posted by Bibliophile (# 18418) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:

quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
You sound like one of those people who thinks that anyone to the right of Tony Blair is a fascist.
On the contrary, Cameron is largely a liberal too, hence the legalisation of equal marriage. Even people like David Davis are liberals. The out and out fascists are people like IDS and Michael Howard.

Well 'heir to Blair' call me Dave isn't really that far to the right of Blair.

The Conservative Party is both the mainstream centre right party of the UK and also the most popular party in the UK. Michael Howard and IDS may be on the right wing of the Conservative Party but they're not that far on the right. They're still quite close to the mainstream of that party. If you're going to call anyone to the right of Call Me Dave 'fascist', if you're going to call anyone who criticises liberalism from the right 'fascist' then I can't take your use of the term seriously. I can't take mr cheesy's use of the term seriously either because he comes across as such a foaming at the mouth Dave Spart that I can't take anything he says seriously.

For the record I am not a fascist.

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:

quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
I wonder if Bibliophile has ignored the distinction between push and pull in migratory movement. Given that there are a few million who have left Syria for (reasonable IMHO) fear of their lives, it strikes me that push is the predominant factor here.
Oh yes the push factor. And what created this push factor. Various neo-conservative western interventions in the middle east. And what is 'neo-conservatism'? Well it originated with anti-communist liberals of the 1960s and 1970s like Democratic Senator Henry 'Scoop' Jackson, in other words the centre left. It has been enthusiastically supported by center left leaders like Tony Blair and Barak Obama. It is not a movement of the right.

Black is white, and up is down, so saith Bibliophile. Remind me never to ride in a car with you, I don't trust your sense of direction, nor your ability to read.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

Well, if mr cheesy sounds so much like a foaming-at-the-mouth Dave Spart, then how do you think you sound, Bibliophile?

[Confused]

You might not be a fascist but you're doing a pretty good impression of being a foaming-at-the-mouth UKIP-er.

Pot, meet kettle.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Well, if mr cheesy sounds so much like a foaming-at-the-mouth Dave Spart, then how do you think you sound, Bibliophile?

Do you think he cares? I'm coming round to the idea that he enjoys being provocative and unpopular. However, just because Jeremiah was unpopular, right and righteous does not mean that every other unpopular person is also right and righteous.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

I'm thinking of getting a T-shirt with "sanctimonious narcissistic pseudo-compassionate liberal" on it.

There was a stream of people going into the drop off point in South London today, and I stuck out like a sore thumb - all of an age I'm not, late 20s early 30s. The living room of the small flat was crammed with bags, and it reminded me that the very few people who spend their time posting obnoxious stuff are indeed very few.

There was a piece by Giles Fraser today in the Guardian, citing the Bible's injunctions on the treatment of refugees (of whom the infant Jesus was one) and slating Archbishop Peter Erdo of Budapest, who prohibited churches from sheltering refugees, as well as Orban, for themselves threatening the Christian identity of Europe.

Loose Canon

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:

quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
I wonder if Bibliophile has ignored the distinction between push and pull in migratory movement. Given that there are a few million who have left Syria for (reasonable IMHO) fear of their lives, it strikes me that push is the predominant factor here.
Oh yes the push factor. And what created this push factor. Various neo-conservative western interventions in the middle east. And what is 'neo-conservatism'? Well it originated with anti-communist liberals of the 1960s and 1970s like Democratic Senator Henry 'Scoop' Jackson, in other words the centre left. It has been enthusiastically supported by center left leaders like Tony Blair and Barak Obama. It is not a movement of the right.

Bibliophile and I have perhaps different perspectives: I thought that Senator Jackson was right-wing, Tony Blair vaguely centrist, and Barack Obama a moderate right-winger.

In any case, western interventions in the middle east have a long history, involving all sorts of folk such as Lord Curzon, Sir Winston Churchill, Lords Attlee and Avon, and Presidents Nixon and Clinton; which would suggest to me that ideology doesn't have a lot to do with it. Oil?? is that a word??

Posted by Bibliophile (# 18418) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
: You might not be a fascist but you're doing a pretty good impression of being a foaming-at-the-mouth UKIP-er.

LOL, fair play. I can get a bit ranty on certain subjects (e.g. communism), I'll try to keep any mouth foaming to a minimum.

Posted by Bibliophile (# 18418) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Well, if mr cheesy sounds so much like a foaming-at-the-mouth Dave Spart, then how do you think you sound, Bibliophile?

Do you think he cares? I'm coming round to the idea that he enjoys being provocative and unpopular.

I enjoy having my ideas challenged. Spending time posting on a conservative forum can be more boring when the other people there broadly agree with you. Posting on a (mostly) liberal forum like this is more interesting for me as there is more challenge.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
mr cheesy

Children are drowning because of policies supported by people like you
You are one of the worst arguers on the Ship for a while. Really. All the nuance of a Wiggles song.
Well is that a less nuanced statement than

quote:
I hope this marks the downfall of UKIP and all who share and promote the ideology of hate

Yes.

quote:

And it is true that a massive pull factor is created when Merkel and the EU set up rules that say that anyone who arrives by any route, legal or illegal, effectively has leave to remain. That is giving full encouragement to the people traffickers.

No, not Merkel and the EU. Merkel is not the same as the EU. What Merkel has done is quite different from EU rules, and I've said in Purgatory I don't agree with what Germany is doing.

[ 05. September 2015, 23:45: Message edited by: orfeo ]

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
: You might not be a fascist but you're doing a pretty good impression of being a foaming-at-the-mouth UKIP-er.
LOL, fair play. I can get a bit ranty on certain subjects (e.g. communism), I'll try to keep any mouth foaming to a minimum.

E.g. is an understatement. You find communism everywhere you look, and you've already been hauled up on the fact that you talk about it incessantly.

There aren't Reds under the bed, and there aren't Red on the Ship. What you're foaming at the mouth about is an ideology that's lost a great deal of its power since 1989, which leaves me wondering why on earth you feel the need to keep banging on about it. This is the 21st century, not the 20th.

[ 05. September 2015, 23:48: Message edited by: orfeo ]

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

Fascism needs a great enemy upon which to practice its hatred. For much of the 20th century it was Jews and/or Communists. With the collapse of the USSR the latter became irrelevant, and the former became unpopular when the Nazis caused even most fascists to say "hang on, I think that's going a bit far". Most fascists have moved on to attacking Muslims these days (with a dishonourable mention to those like IDS who focus more on attacking the poor and disabled), but clearly dear Bibbly has a little nostalgia for when Communists were the target of choice.

[ 06. September 2015, 06:09: Message edited by: Arethosemyfeet ]

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Well, if mr cheesy sounds so much like a foaming-at-the-mouth Dave Spart, then how do you think you sound, Bibliophile?

Do you think he cares? I'm coming round to the idea that he enjoys being provocative and unpopular.
I enjoy having my ideas challenged. Spending time posting on a conservative forum can be more boring when the other people there broadly agree with you. Posting on a (mostly) liberal forum like this is more interesting for me as there is more challenge.

You missed out the bit about "Jeremiahs".
[Biased]

Posted by Bibliophile (# 18418) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
: You might not be a fascist but you're doing a pretty good impression of being a foaming-at-the-mouth UKIP-er.
LOL, fair play. I can get a bit ranty on certain subjects (e.g. communism), I'll try to keep any mouth foaming to a minimum.
E.g. is an understatement. You find communism everywhere you look, and you've already been hauled up on the fact that you talk about it incessantly.

There aren't Reds under the bed, and there aren't Red on the Ship. What you're foaming at the mouth about is an ideology that's lost a great deal of its power since 1989, which leaves me wondering why on earth you feel the need to keep banging on about it. This is the 21st century, not the 20th.

Unfortunately communism still has plenty of people who defend it and make excuses for it and I don't like that. I accept that just going on about one subject can be a bit tedious and I am bearing that in mind

I would point out though that fascism is an ideology that lost a great deal of power all the way back in 1945, 70 years ago. And yet you still get people like Arethosemyfeet banging on about it and making wild accusations about various people, including government ministers, he suspects of being fascists.

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

IDS has been knowingly causing the deaths of disabled people with a disturbing degree of glee, and has been creating a corporatist state tying the government to profit-making corporations that Mussolini would be proud of.

Posted by Bibliophile (# 18418) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
IDS has been knowingly causing the deaths of disabled people with a disturbing degree of glee, and has been creating a corporatist state tying the government to profit-making corporations that Mussolini would be proud of.

See what I mean. Foaming at the mouth about fascists under the bed.

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
fascists under the bed.

No, these people are in government. Some of us dream of the day that they're only under our beds.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:

quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
IDS has been knowingly causing the deaths of disabled people with a disturbing degree of glee, and has been creating a corporatist state tying the government to profit-making corporations that Mussolini would be proud of.
See what I mean. Foaming at the mouth about fascists under the bed.

Well, if we have a government that places the welfare of corporations above that of people, it does match one of the facets of Fascism. Only one of them I agree, but it does reduce the power of the democratic vote if the will of the people is ignored. A bit like soviet communism in that regard.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

I don't think they think they are ignoring the will of the people. It's just that they are listening to people we don't like.

On a story on the Daily Mail yesterday*, which had come out in favour of doing something helpful to refugees, there were thousands of people downticking positive feedback comments and upticking the few negative ones.

It's quite scarey to think we are sharing a country with so many trolls. The woman collecting for Calaid in south London said she had only had a few, which is good.

With regards to IDS, I've posted a quote from Vince Cable in the DWP thread, which casts some light on the situation there.

*I arrived there by surprise from a link somewhere.

Posted by Bibliophile (# 18418) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
mr cheesy

Children are drowning because of policies supported by people like you
You are one of the worst arguers on the Ship for a while. Really. All the nuance of a Wiggles song.
Well is that a less nuanced statement than

quote:
I hope this marks the downfall of UKIP and all who share and promote the ideology of hate
Yes.

I can see that you might agree with that statement but I'm not sure how you could claim that that statement contains any nuance at all.

Posted by The5thMary (# 12953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
If the UN does anything, the USA should pay the bill for it because it destabilized Iraq in the first place.

Not everyone in the USA should have to pay the bill for this mess. I think all the saber rattling Republican and some Democrat senators should have to dig deep to pay for the destabilization. I certainly never gave my o.k. to the invasion of Iraq and I'm sure many millions of Americans didn't, either. Let George W. Bush have to sell his ranches and his holdings in Halliburton, etc to pay the bill. Force Dick Cheney to cough up his billions, the bastard. [Mad]

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

The5thMary: of course, damn to pay those responsible were it possible.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
I can see that you might agree with that statement but I'm not sure how you could claim that that statement contains any nuance at all.

Maddening, isn't it.

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