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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Neoliberal bastards
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
And, various external factors. Is it a reflection on your abilities and hard work if someone much more senior makes a really bad decision and the company closes? Or, if that happens in a recession and no one else is hiring?
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Height. Height affects salary.
Seriously, there's been a study. And a whole lot of other studies demonstrate in different ways that how someone looks is a huge factor in success in various situations, including job interviews. People make snap decisions within a matter of seconds about people, before they really know anything about their talents or how hard they worked in school.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Height. Height affects salary.
Seriously, there's been a study. And a whole lot of other studies demonstrate in different ways that how someone looks is a huge factor in success in various situations, including job interviews.
In US Presidential elections, the tall guy usually wins. This time around, that's Donald Trump. Still, if Hillary's the Democratic candidate, maybe she can nominate Bill as her champion: he and Donald Trump are the same height.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Height. Height affects salary.
Seriously, there's been a study. And a whole lot of other studies demonstrate in different ways that how someone looks is a huge factor in success in various situations, including job interviews.
In US Presidential elections, the tall guy usually wins. This time around, that's Donald Trump. Still, if Hillary's the Democratic candidate, maybe she can nominate Bill as her champion: he and Donald Trump are the same height.
Yeah but in the television era it's also usually the guy with the most hair... so Hilary will beat any of them... ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
AFZ
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Or Trump will just buy some more.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Marvin, take three children These are real children. No names, no other information.
Two of them are very bright. One got level 5/6 in all core subjects save writing (because he is probably dysgraphic). Another will almost certainly get the same. Both got 3/4 across the board at the end of KS1.
The third child has mild learning disability. She scraped 1s at the end of KS1. At the age of 7 she can barely read more than a few words at sight and finds sounding out words longer than four or five phonemes challenging and often cannot do it. She has not yet learnt number bonds up to 10.
All work equally hard (or not) at school. The difference is innate. By the end of KS2, at the age of 11, there are some children, even in a small village one class per year school, working at level 3 (that expected of a bright 7 year old) and some at level 6 (equivalent to a grade G GCSE). In some, many, even, cases the higher achieving children are more hard working. In many other cases, however, there are children who do fuck all work and still get high grades (I was one, no, I'm not proud of it, it just happened that I could get top marks without doing much work), and I've also known children who work like devils and still cannot grasp basic principles.
There's way, way more variation than you're willing to admit. I know it makes it easier to cope with people scraping a living and having a bad time of life if you can think to yourself that it's their fault, but you're going to have to face that there's am element of luck as well, even if you do have to add hard work to that.
tl;dr version - you're wrong, Marvin. Painfully wrong.
[ 15. October 2015, 08:49: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
I thought NP’s point was that people of the baby boomer generation are in a much better financial situation than their children and the reason is not pure hard work and virtue. I do think they were lucky. My parents, who are in their mid-sixties, are much better off than I am. They bought their own home on a fairly modest salary (which would be a pipe dream for most couples in a similar economic situation today) and were able to retire in their early sixties on a pension that gives them considerable disposable income. Think two foreign holidays a year. Good for them, as far as it goes, but the reason is not that they worked harder. I can work just as hard, pay my taxes my whole life, and I won’t be able to retire at anything like the same age on anything like the same income, because in most Western economies the whole retirement/pensions system is a ticking time bomb and when we reach that age people like me are looking at being seriously screwed (technical term).
I believe Marv’s about the same age as me. It’s not unfair to describe the baby boomers as the generation who bankrupted their children. So yes, I do think there is a serious debate to be had about why my parents get to travel free on the bus at the taxpayer’s expense, when they are so much better off than many people younger than them. It’s all very well to say “I worked hard my whole life and I’ve earned it” but what about the generation who are going to work hard our whole lives and are going to have nothing to show for it in the end? The baby boomers may like to call it all hard work, but I think good luck had more to do with it than they care to admit.
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
There's way, way more variation than you're willing to admit. I know it makes it easier to cope with people scraping a living and having a bad time of life if you can think to yourself that it's their fault, but you're going to have to face that there's am element of luck as well, even if you do have to add hard work to that.
I've already agreed that there's an element of luck involved, we're just arguing about how significant it is. You seem to be saying it's virtually all luck, which I simply cannot agree with as it strips us all of any responsibility for the development of our own lives. If it's all just luck then there's no point in trying - whether you succeed or fail is entirely out of your hands so you may as well just sit back and enjoy the ride.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
I don't think anyone's arguing that it's all luck. However, if it wasn't a significant factor that being born to rich parents meant that you'd have a much greater chance (and not just a little bit, and slightly less than guaranteed) of having a well-paid job, then you'd see that in all the 'social mobility' indexes.
If you want to be an Olympic athlete, the best indicator as to whether you succeed is that one or both of your parents were Olympic athletes. Hard work in that context will only take you so far.
And you're not going to convince anyone that children at private school 'deserve' to be there simply because they're harder-working than the rest of their cohort.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
There's way, way more variation than you're willing to admit. I know it makes it easier to cope with people scraping a living and having a bad time of life if you can think to yourself that it's their fault, but you're going to have to face that there's am element of luck as well, even if you do have to add hard work to that.
I've already agreed that there's an element of luck involved, we're just arguing about how significant it is. You seem to be saying it's virtually all luck, which I simply cannot agree with as it strips us all of any responsibility for the development of our own lives. If it's all just luck then there's no point in trying - whether you succeed or fail is entirely out of your hands so you may as well just sit back and enjoy the ride.
I'm not arguing it's all luck. Just that luck is an indispensable element. And plenty of people get little enough of it that despite all their hard work they are still shafted. But even if it were all luck, what then? You seem to be arguing from adverse consequences - "if it were, then effort would be pointless". Well, that is true, if it were, then effort would be pointless. But that wouldn't make it any less true, if it were, which no-one is actually arguing it is.
Case in point - Mrs KarlT has two degrees (I have only one), worked far harder at school, got better grades than me, and now earns half as much. I am lucky that I have a brain that finds technical IT stuff easy, for which I am paid. I am paid well because I am lucky enough to have a technical brain. Yes, I've had to do a certain amount of work to make that good fortune work for me, but not as much as many people who are doing a lot worse financially. It's not fair, and it doesn't seem unreasonable that the tax system takes that into account.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
You know what else isn't fair? That people with a natural ability to run really fast win the Olympic 100m contest every single time. Maybe we should bring in an elaborate system of handicapping such that even an unfit bugger like me who hasn't seen the inside of a gym in over a decade has just as much chance of winning the gold medal as all those naturally blessed buggers. They don't deserve their medals! They didn't really earn them, it was just luck that they were born with that ability! And after all, I'd work just as hard over fifty meters as they would over a hundred...
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
You know what else isn't fair? That people with a natural ability to run really fast win the Olympic 100m contest every single time. Maybe we should bring in an elaborate system of handicapping such that even an unfit bugger like me who hasn't seen the inside of a gym in over a decade has just as much chance of winning the gold medal as all those naturally blessed buggers. They don't deserve their medals! They didn't really earn them, it was just luck that they were born with that ability! And after all, I'd work just as hard over fifty meters as they would over a hundred...
Oh for fuck's sake, this isn't worth it. No-one's struggling to feed themselves and keep a roof over their head over a medal at the olympics. We're talking about economic injustice, not people playing games.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
You know what else isn't fair? That people with a natural ability to run really fast win the Olympic 100m contest every single time. Maybe we should bring in an elaborate system of handicapping. . . .
Been reading Ayn Rand, have you?
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
My experience is similar to Karl's, but I didn't work hard at school although I was an only child and my parents gave me every encouragement. Consequently I left with one A level at the lowest possible pass grade. Higher education was a disaster, so I entered the Civil Sevice where I discovered that my mind was suited to IT, or as we called it then, ADP.
It wasn't that suited though, and I was never much of a programmer, but I can make a decent living out of it (just as well with five kids) but what kind of system pays a pretty average business-cum-data analyst more than a qualified classroom teacher (both in the public sector). Quite a bit more too: Eldest Son is in that situation having worked much harder and done far better at school and university than his Dad ever did.
LVER has it dead right: the late-Boomers (I was born in 1957) have had the best of it. We did know that we could be blown to Kingdom Come in minutes, which may have accounted for some homework not getting done, but I could give a very long list of our privileges.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
la vie en rouge: quote:
It’s not unfair to describe the baby boomers as the generation who bankrupted their children.
Actually I think it is. Depending on who you ask, I am either one of the youngest baby boomers or one of the oldest of Generation X. I didn't have to pay tuition fees at university (even at what now looks like the bargain-basement rate of £3000 per year) for which I am very grateful, but I graduated in the middle of the last recession but one and am now self-employed with next to no pension provision. It may be tempting to chop the population up into sweeping categories when you are looking for someone to blame for a crisis (and yes, I am guilty of doing it too) but life is not as simple as that.
And a lot of well-off baby boomers are fully aware of the difficulties their younger relatives have and will help if they can. My husband's parents lent us the deposit for our first house, or we'd never have been able to afford to buy even the grotty two-up two-down terraced house right next to a railway that we ended up in.
quote:
So yes, I do think there is a serious debate to be had about why my parents get to travel free on the bus at the taxpayer’s expense, when they are so much better off than many people younger than them.
I can think of several reasons, all of which were probably considered when the Labour government introduced free bus passes:
1. Encouraging people to use public transport instead of cars is a Good Thing. It reduces congestion on the roads, cuts our carbon emissions, etc. etc.
2. Pensioners are the most likely group to increase their use of buses if given free passes because they have free time in the middle of the day when people of working age are (mostly) at work and the buses would otherwise be empty.
3. If you give bus passes to them so they don't have to spend money on travelling to the shops, they will probably (a) go more often, which will improve their physical and mental health (sitting in the house all day is bad for you) and (b) have more money to spend when they get there (which is good for the economy).
On the other hand:
1. I agree that it is unfair to give free bus passes to pensioners and not to other groups on low incomes.
2. A free bus pass is not much use unless you live somewhere with a good bus service, so people in rural areas don't benefit.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
You know what else isn't fair? That people with a natural ability to run really fast win the Olympic 100m contest every single time. Maybe we should bring in an elaborate system of handicapping. . . .
Been reading Ayn Rand, have you?
I've never read a single word she's written (unless it was being quoted by someone else, of course).
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
You know what else isn't fair? That people with a natural ability to run really fast win the Olympic 100m contest every single time. Maybe we should bring in an elaborate system of handicapping. . . .
Been reading Ayn Rand, have you?
I wonder if our extra-terrestrial knows that handicapping was used in professional athletics, back when the Olympics were still ostensibly amateur.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Handicapping is still used in horse races. It makes the race more exciting.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
I probably should stop linking to my own blog but hey, I wrote it and it's relevant, so there! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
quote:
From An alien's view of earth...
I would be inaccurate to describe my life thus far as a bed of roses or to try to deny that I have had to make sacrifices and work hard to get where I am. I think it is very easy to turn such truths into a self-made-man myth that so pervades our culture. And a myth it really is.
I have had the following huge advantages. I was born in the UK, the sixth richest country in the world. I have had up until university, free education. I went to university when fees were a lot lower than they are now. All through my life I have had access to free healthcare. As a child, I had a mother who had the simple expectation that we would do our best. Nothing more, nothing less. Failure was always acceptable, not trying was not. At various stages of career and life I have had countless valuable opportunities. I lost my mother relatively young but because she planned well, I've had a big headstart financially.
So I find myself with a home, a career that is challenging and rewarding and interesting. I have true and real friends. I have traveled widely, I have an expensive and interesting hobby. This could end up being s long, long list. It is true that I have made much of what has been given to me, but seriously how much have I been given!!
AFZ
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
You know what else isn't fair?
No one gives shit. Seriously. We're talking about luck, not fairness.
If you want a better analogy, it's that the kids who can really run fast are excluded from the running club where they might train because they can't afford the fucking fees.
That's not fair.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
You know what else isn't fair? That people with a natural ability to run really fast win the Olympic 100m contest every single time. Maybe we should bring in an elaborate system of handicapping such that even an unfit bugger like me who hasn't seen the inside of a gym in over a decade has just as much chance of winning the gold medal as all those naturally blessed buggers. They don't deserve their medals! They didn't really earn them, it was just luck that they were born with that ability! And after all, I'd work just as hard over fifty meters as they would over a hundred...
One of the stupider paragraphs you've ever generated.
You know what? I'm naturally intelligent. It's been a huge factor in me being able to get a satisfying job with an excellent salary.
But there is also ample evidence that my mother's family has been full of highly intelligent people for several generations. They didn't get excellent salaries because they simply had no opportunity to go into higher education. It just wasn't viable for people of their background until major reforms here around the 1970s. Mum's kid brother was the first person in the family able to benefit from these reforms. He got a PhD.
The difference between me and, say, my grandparents isn't that I worked hard and they were lazy. The difference is that I was born into an environment where there was an opportunity to use my brain pretty much however I decided, and they weren't. In your analogy, I come from a family of fast runners and it wasn't until recently that we had any training facilities available to harness that talent.
[ 15. October 2015, 15:41: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
You know what else isn't fair?
No one gives shit. Seriously. We're talking about luck, not fairness.
Karl brought up fairness first.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
You know what else isn't fair?
No one gives shit. Seriously. We're talking about luck, not fairness.
Karl brought up fairness first.
Fairness in the tax system. Not in life.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Anglicano
Shipmate
# 18476
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
So you should be means tested Anglicano, because you can afford it,.
In Australia you only get an "age pension" if you have failed to make provision for yourself. Do you think that's fair? Why bother to save for retirement if the state will bail you out? I must read that Wise and Foolish Virgin parable again.
Posts: 61 | From: Cheshire, England | Registered: Sep 2015
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglicano:
In Australia you only get an "age pension" if you have failed to make provision for yourself. Do you think that's fair?
I don't think we want to leave people, however spendthrift, to starve in the street. So those with nothing get something.
I'm not a fan of means-testing benefits: you usually end up with rapid withdrawal rates and a complicated administration. You can produce a very similar effect with a universal benefit, recovering the extra benefit from the wealthy in tax, so you need to look at the whole picture and not get hung up on details.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
Been reading Ayn Rand, have you?
I've never read a single word she's written (unless it was being quoted by someone else, of course).
Well, don't. If you recover from your paroxysm of orgasmic rapture, you will give up Christianity and erect an alter to her.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Many people have never made enough to save. (Yes, really.) Many people did save, but lost the money through no fault of their own: medical expenses (which can bankrupt you, here in the US); an economic crunch like the Great Recession (more of a depression) a few years back; natural disasters, etc.
Many people never have the option of a pension through work. And a lot of pension money was lost during the recession. IIRC, some companies dropped pensions altogether.
Maybe Anglicano and Marvin haven't experienced this, but it's quite possible to do all the right things and not get the right result.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglicano:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
So you should be means tested Anglicano, because you can afford it,.
In Australia you only get an "age pension" if you have failed to make provision for yourself. Do you think that's fair? Why bother to save for retirement if the state will bail you out? I must read that Wise and Foolish Virgin parable again.
But AIUI pretty much all Australian 'pensions' (what we would call 'benefits' here, including those for people of working age) are means-tested and non-contributory, historically balanced for working people by a tradition of judicially-decided living wage settlements. It's a different social security culture altogether.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Many people have never made enough to save. (Yes, really.) Many people did save, but lost the money through no fault of their own: medical expenses (which can bankrupt you, here in the US); an economic crunch like the Great Recession (more of a depression) a few years back; natural disasters, etc.
Many people never have the option of a pension through work. And a lot of pension money was lost during the recession. IIRC, some companies dropped pensions altogether.
Maybe Anglicano and Marvin haven't experienced this, but it's quite possible to do all the right things and not get the right result.
To be fair to Marvin, at least the fact he's trying to salve his conscience by reconstructing reality in his head so that people who are in the shit deserve to be, it demonstrates he's actually got a conscience to salve.
It shows the presence of some hope.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
To be fair to Marvin, at least the fact he's trying to salve his conscience by reconstructing reality in his head so that people who are in the shit deserve to be, it demonstrates he's actually got a conscience to salve.
It shows the presence of some hope.
Ha! You would make a good, battered spouse with that logic.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
To be fair to Marvin, at least the fact he's trying to salve his conscience by reconstructing reality in his head so that people who are in the shit deserve to be, it demonstrates he's actually got a conscience to salve.
It shows the presence of some hope.
Ha! You would make a good, battered spouse with that logic.
Hey, just trying to be charitable. I actually quite like Marvin despite his completely unrealistic idea of how the world actually works and how reality actually is for lots of people he knows nothing about.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
In all seriousness, Karl, likeability hasn't a thing to do with it.
The philosophy that people deserve their circumstance allows us to ignore the less fortunate and allows those with more to take even more.
Not a Buddhist value and not a Christian value.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I agree. But people without a conscience do not need to be "allowed" to do so by a mistaken impression. Therefore those who take this line are those with consciences. And that's where hope lies; if they see the reality they may change their attitudes.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I agree. But people without a conscience do not need to be "allowed" to do so by a mistaken impression. Therefore those who take this line are those with consciences. And that's where hope lies; if they see the reality they may change their attitudes.
Oh, but I disagree. I think that is far too simplistic a view for a start. And conscience seems far too easily assuaged to be very strong, in many cases.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Anglicano
Shipmate
# 18476
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Posted
Can I mention Australia again (I lived there from 2001-05)? People with employer-based pension could/can draw a lump sum and invest it as they wanted. Now G Osborne's introduced that to the UK. Great. It gives freedom to use your money as you want.
But be careful. We are not all Wise Virgins. people can (and do) misinvest the monies, spend it on holidays or for all I know put it on a racehorse. And then? The state steps in and they draw benefits.
In the refined world of Tory politicians, we are all prudent. We live in a property-owning, share-owning democracy. With their limited vision and experience of the real world, that's perhaps how Messrs Cameron and Osborne see life. And quite possibly the Taxpayers' Alliance have this perception too. Though whether they approve of bailing out the improvident, I'm not sure.
Posts: 61 | From: Cheshire, England | Registered: Sep 2015
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Rubbish all of it. In a Tory world, poor people don't matter one tiny bit.
Investment based retirement is rubbish as well. For one it relies on factors the average person cannot control. Imagine depending on those funds at the height of that recent mess we are still recovering from. Even the safest investment is a gamble.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglicano:
Can I mention Australia again (I lived there from 2001-05)? People with employer-based pension could/can draw a lump sum and invest it as they wanted. Now G Osborne's introduced that to the UK. Great. It gives freedom to use your money as you want.
But be careful. We are not all Wise Virgins. people can (and do) misinvest the monies, spend it on holidays or for all I know put it on a racehorse. And then? The state steps in and they draw benefits.
In the refined world of Tory politicians, we are all prudent. We live in a property-owning, share-owning democracy. With their limited vision and experience of the real world, that's perhaps how Messrs Cameron and Osborne see life. And quite possibly the Taxpayers' Alliance have this perception too. Though whether they approve of bailing out the improvident, I'm not sure.
All the Tories and their pals are interested in is making money and increasing their wealth at the expense of others. They do that by rigging the tax system so that ordinary people actually pay more tax than the rich and the companies owned by the rich. As for pension plans these benefit those who run and own them for more than those who contribute to them.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Golden Key
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# 1468
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Posted
Sioni Sais--
The Tories sound like our Republicans.
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
All the Tories and their pals are interested in is making money and increasing their wealth
Fixed that for you.
So many people make it sound like they're deliberately and maliciously trying to make things harder for the poor. They're not - they're just doing what they can to make themselves better off, and the effects on anyone else are utterly irrelevant.
They don't hate poor people, because to hate someone you've first got to actually think about them.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
All the Tories and their pals are interested in is making money and increasing their wealth
Fixed that for you.
So many people make it sound like they're deliberately and maliciously trying to make things harder for the poor. They're not - they're just doing what they can to make themselves better off, and the effects on anyone else are utterly irrelevant.
They don't hate poor people, because to hate someone you've first got to actually think about them.
How on earth do you think this is better?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
All the Tories and their pals are interested in is making money and increasing their wealth
Fixed that for you.
So many people make it sound like they're deliberately and maliciously trying to make things harder for the poor. They're not - they're just doing what they can to make themselves better off, and the effects on anyone else are utterly irrelevant.
They don't hate poor people, because to hate someone you've first got to actually think about them.
Almost, but not quite. In their perpetual quest to hoover up every last penny, the Tories occasionally look around and see that the poor still have some money that, for them, would be far better used elsewhere - usually offshore. So schloooop, up it goes into the big Tory dustbag, and the poor can go fuck themselves. Or, since the'll now be half-starved and won't have the energy to go fuck themselves, they can always spend the evening hanging out down at the local foodbank.
I'm with Nye Bevan on this one: "No amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction, can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory Party. So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin."
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
But AIUI pretty much all Australian 'pensions' (what we would call 'benefits' here, including those for people of working age) are means-tested and non-contributory, historically balanced for working people by a tradition of judicially-decided living wage settlements. It's a different social security culture altogether.
Except of course that we contribute through the taxes we pay (and continue to pay after retirement). Once Madame and I retire, the only benefit we shall receive is that after some sort of qualifying period we receive a card entitling us to reduced fares on public transport in our own state - not in any of the others. Those on age pensions get their pension, cheap public transport in all states, reductions on gas, water and electricity supplies and on the local council rates. None of which I begrudge them; as Albertus says (if no longer entirely accurate), for many years a minimum wage was fixed based upon the concept that a married man needed a certain income to support a wife and 2 children. You can guess the age of the system from that. On that wage, commonly a mortgage was paid, so that by the time a person retired they owned their own house and with care could manage on the age pension and a bit of savings.
The last 30 years has seen the widespread rise of superannuation schemes, privately run, and to which employers are required to contribute. That is what Anglicano is referring to. Until then, such schemes were by and large limited to the public service, and such employers as banks, insurance companies and for white collar workers in large private companies.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
But AIUI pretty much all Australian 'pensions' (what we would call 'benefits' here, including those for people of working age) are means-tested and non-contributory, historically balanced for working people by a tradition of judicially-decided living wage settlements. It's a different social security culture altogether.
Except of course that we contribute through the taxes we pay (and continue to pay after retirement).
Oh yes, sure. But non-contributory in the sense that entitlement to, or amount of, a pension does not depend on having paid into a social insurance scheme- unlike the state retirement pension in the UK (now however often augmented with means-tested top ups).
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
I understood what you meant Albertus - your use of "non-contributory" takes it to an insurance scheme. The point I was making is that there is no such thing as a free lunch. I don't mind any of my tax dollars going towards age pensions (not so sure about some receiving other benefits), but the money does have to come from somewhere.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Agree completely.
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I agree. But people without a conscience do not need to be "allowed" to do so by a mistaken impression. Therefore those who take this line are those with consciences. And that's where hope lies; if they see the reality they may change their attitudes.
All societies have contracts, both legal and implied which govern how we interact. Violate those too far and you have unrest, protest and Revolution. People without a conscience, but with a functioning understanding of this, use rhetoric as a mask. They use it as a way to convince you that it is their pocket you have on your trousers.
But you also miss the True Believers with your view. Many of them have sympathy for the poor. They might fund charity, but they will still favour a system which benefits themselves and ultimately keeps the poor in their place.
And if hope is the only thing you do, then you deserve what you get.
Every single government on this planet governs at the acceptance of its people. Now, if one's government has a gun to one's head or a tank parked in the garden, I will cut them some slack as to their response. But the rest of us, living in countries where the government needs our permission to steal from us? Not so much.
[ 19. October 2015, 17:29: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
In a quite unexpected move, one of the most respectable faces of neoliberalism in the UK, the Adam Smith Institute, has called for the Conservatives to reverse the cuts to tax credits.
For US readers, this is like the NRA saying "hold on, maybe we shouldn't be selling this kind of gun to the general public."
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Hmmmm...maybe we could get them to infiltrate the NRA? Or just *buy* it, like the NRA buys people.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
From Businessinsider.com: (2013 article)
quote:
In its early days, the National Rifle Association was a grassroots social club that prided itself on independence from corporate influence.
While that is still part of the organization's core function, today less than half of the NRA's revenues come from program fees and membership dues.
The bulk of the group's money now comes in the form of contributions, grants, royalty income, and advertising, much of it originating from gun industry sources.
Since 2005, the gun industry and its corporate allies have given between $20 million and $52.6 million to it through the NRA Ring of Freedom sponsor program. Donors include firearm companies like Midway USA, Springfield Armory Inc, Pierce Bullet Seal Target Systems, and Beretta USA Corporation. Other supporters from the gun industry include Cabala's, Sturm Rugar & Co, and Smith & Wesson.
The NRA also made $20.9 million — about 10 percent of its revenue — from selling advertising to industry companies marketing products in its many publications in 2010, according to the IRS Form 990.
This is just what has gone into their coffers, the gun industry is a ~$15 billion industry, so yeah, a bidding war would work.
IMO, its leadership is insane as well as in the pocket of the gun industry.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I live near the NRA's headquarters, in northern Virginia. They have a Gun Museum on the ground floor of their building. It is a wow -- shows you what God could really do, if only He had the money. It is far, far more luxe than any museum you have ever been to. All guns, of course. They are stored in cases that are kept dark, to preserve then from damaging ultraviolet light. But as you approach the case the motion-sensor notes your presence and turns the lights on, so that you can admire Teddy Roosevelt's elephant rifle or whatever it is. You can walk down the exhibit hall in a moving pool of light, as the cases light up for your delectation and then go dim again behind you. Only the Declaration of Independence, down at the National Archives, is housed at an equivalent level.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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