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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: a 'man-friendly Christmas'
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
I didn't think I could read worse tripe on men and the church than Carl Beech's ministry, but worse luck there's some Anglican guff[host edit - link broken, try here instead] on it too. I have the misfortune to have mutual friends with this man so I shouldn't be surprised that he wants to infect a feast LITERALLY ABOUT BABY JESUS with action film clips and nonsense about Christ the Warrior.
If he wants all-male clergy, perhaps he should try Pusey House? ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
[ 03. December 2015, 11:36: Message edited by: Doc Tor ]
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
I'm not at all sure Christmas is adequately woman-friendly - I mean, when did you last hear a sermon on the all-important topic of packing a capsule wardrobe for those midwinter donkey rides across the Near East? Or anything about Nigella's fabulous chocolate and frankincense fondants?
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
The Christmas Eve service is the most popular with men in the church's year, so in order to attract men we'd better change it?
I thought men were supposed to be logical ...
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Ooops, I just posted this in purge not having seen this thread; sorry. When I first read it I thought it was a joke in poor taste, but sadly I don't think it is. When I realised I wasn't reading The Onion or something similar and instead this was actually something promoted on an official diocesan website I went a bit slack jawed. It came up in my Twitter feed as a joke that everyone was laughing at.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
If he wants all-male clergy, perhaps he should try Pusey House?
I'm not sure Pusey would want him.
OTOH, I once went to a Pusey House Mass of the Passion during the Triduum at Ascot Priory where the detail of the crucifixion (nails driving through sinews and biologically/chemically what that does to pain receptors, etc, that sort of thing) in the sermon was so graphic that one of the congregation had to go and throw up before it had finished...
The preacher was however not a Priest Librarian of the Pusey chapter.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
In addition, I suppose if you're going to be the Diocesan Missioner (Unreached Men), then this is probably the sort of thing you have to write.
Some of it goes a bit far for me, but thinking about it, it's one of those things which ought IMO to be considered (how to reach men as an underrepresented demographic in congregations) so I'm going to very unhellishly say a qualified well done to my diocese on this one for at least having a point of view and a go at an answer.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
Pomona - this touches on one of my big bugbears with the church.
"We have more women than men in the church. We need to attract more men" - although apparently the same doesn't apply to, say, LGBTI people, or single parents, or people with a middle name of Earnest.
"Lets do 'manly' things - that will attract them" - except, of course, most church people a) have no idea what 'manly' things are; b) even when they do, they are crap at them; c) it tends to exclude things like admiring the ladies, getting drunk and swearing.
And the big problem with all of this is that the church only ever does "programmes" to attract a certain group of people. There is never a fundamental change to the way things are done. It is about attracting people in to support the church as it is.
There are so many questions that are not asked in this sort of approach:
1. What do those people we want to attract actually want?
2. What do those people we will neglect by targeting these people think about this?
3. What is the fucking point if we don't change what we do in a fundamental way or look after those who are already part of our community?
4. WTFWJD? If the answer involves putting on special services and programmes then maybe you have lost the fucking plot.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
The Christmas Eve service is the most popular with men in the church's year, so in order to attract men we'd better change it?
I thought men were supposed to be logical ...
I assume this is irony. Otherwise you're piling misandry* on misogyny, and doubly reinforcing the Patriarchy.
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
There are so many questions that are not asked in this sort of approach:
To your list of eminently reasonable questions I would add:
5. Is there really a problem that is suggested by current statistics regarding church attendance/membership?
6. If so, what is it?
7. What are its causes?
7a. [corollary] Is there anything wrong with what we're doing that has brought this about?
8. What, if anything, can WE do to ameliorate those causes so as to bring things to rights?
9. Are those things in keeping with the Gospel we're meant to proclaim and live?
10. What would be the cost of implementing any changes that have made it through this vetting process? Can they be justified?
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*which in this case really is misogyny, as it holds the unspoken thought that women are not logical.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Churches are so female on their style that more needs to be done to redress the balance towards males.
Crib services and christingles with gushing mummies are particularly alienating to many men - i avoid them both.
Translation please: "I've heard of christingles, but what exactly is a "crib service"?
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Lord Jestocost
Shipmate
# 12909
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Posted
Someone in the Diocese of Oxford with web admin rights might be reading this, because the link in the OP no longer goes anywhere.
Posts: 761 | From: The Instrumentality of Man | Registered: Aug 2007
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Perhaps it was so 'man-friendly' that it was linked to a porn site or to endless repeats of Top Gear?
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
'Man-friendly' ... what the ...?!
I knew a woman who used to go into bookshops and sabotage the 'Women's Interest' shelves by mixing the books up with those on other, non-gender specific shelves.
The idea of a 'man-friendly' service makes me want to go out and join her - jumbling up the books so that they don't fall into gender stereotypes.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
If he wants all-male clergy, perhaps he should try Pusey House?
No worries: I'm sure Mark Driscoll is planning a very manly resurrection of his failed Alpha-male ministry any day now.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
A 'crib service' is one held around the crib - a representation of the manger where they laid the ickle baby Jesus ...
I don't think I've ever been to one, but I've been in services where they've gathered the kids around the crib for a short pep-talk/observations as part of the service.
At the more 'catholic' end of the Anglican spectrum is customary to involve the kids in setting out the plaster figures of the Holy Family and the shepherds and Magi etc and the oxen and asses and so on (if the church has such things or soft-toy equivalents) in the services running up to Christmas and to play a part in taking them down at Epiphany ...
I suspect this is the sort of thing leo is describing. Of perhaps he has something else in mind that is more off-putting to a certain macho male sensibility ... ?
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Churches are so female on their style that more needs to be done to redress the balance towards males.
Why do you suppose that is, given that the majority of clergy are male? It's something I've often heard, but I can't quite see where the feminine style is coming from, as women in positions of authority are in the minority. Moreover, it's something I first heard many years ago, when there were even fewer female clergy than there are now.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
Church leadership is male dominated. Church membership is female dominated. I can't see any way in which this should be a problem, should it?
The last church I left had this sort of problem. The majority of the internal church leadership was female (but the Vicar was male, and they were not really sure about women vicars). So, of course, they wanted to attract more men - as long as it didn't involve changing anything.
This is almost worthy of the @BibleStdntsSay twitter feed. I sometimes wonder if 2000 years of history, consideration and theological thought are going to be lost by the next generation.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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kingsfold
Shipmate
# 1726
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Posted
quote:
posted by leo:
Churches are so female on their style that more needs to be done to redress the balance towards males.
I keep hearing this. Maybe I'm lacking imagination, but what is it that makes church male or female in style? Can you give some concrete examples?
quote:
Crib services and christingles with gushing mummies are particularly alienating to many.
Perhaps this is more accurate?
[ 02. December 2015, 15:12: Message edited by: kingsfold ]
Posts: 4473 | From: land of the wee midgie | Registered: Nov 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
North East Quine
Some say that Christianity has certain inherent qualities that mesh conveniently with the culturally constructed desirables of heterosexual femininity. For example, the religion emphasises service, self-abnegation, sexual purity, the dissolution of the self into a male God, and so on.
As for the ordained ministry, the RCC has an exclusively male priesthood, but these men are all expected to be celibate, hence defying the sexual potency that most cultures expect of the ideal masculine male. And although men may run churches, for centuries popular Western culture has seen the male clergy as somewhat deficient examples of heterosexual masculinity. Muscular Christianity and the authoritarian evangelical preacher may be attempts to challenge this image, but they haven't entirely succeeded. In fact, the muscular Christian leader is still sometimes suspected of being gay.
Church life is also considered to offer particular benefits that may be more important to women; a warm, supportive community, assistance in raising and training children, etc.
There are some interesting essays on this subject, e.g.:
http://biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/vox/vol20/women_walter.pdf
http://faculty.cua.edu/sullins/SOC241/walter%20and%20davies%20women%20and%20religion.pdf
Women and secularisation is another topic that people are looking at now.
There are also books, including the infamous one by David Murrow, 'Why Men Hate Going to Church'. Two I haven't yet read are Leon Podles, 'The Church Impotent: The Feminization of Christianity' (the author is RC) and Steve Bruce and Marta Trzebiatowska, 'Why Are Women More Religious Than Men' (the authors are non-religious, I believe).
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I suppose I should add that 'of course' God is not exclusively male, or not male in the human sense. But that's a theological point that neither our language about God, nor our Holy Scriptures, nor our popular religious culture, nor our church life emphasises.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Crib services and christingles with gushing mummies
Oozing vampires and positively deliquescent zombies. Issue the men with plasma rifles and tell them they have until the benediction to clear the level. Problem solved.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
Maybe they could just replace the Communion wine with beer.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
It's a sort of tangent, but related, but I had an icky moment today.
I was in the Sevenoaks Oxfam secondhand bookshop browsing the religion shelves, and spotted a pristine book in that very shiny style used by a certain sort of Christian publisher, entitled "God's Design for Women". (This was a laid out in the very long comment under that blog about the Oxford piece linked to on the Purg thread). It had a particular view of men's and women's places in churches, where there should be no problem in having an obvious male presence in leading the services. (I went away wondering why the use of "design" rather than "plan", since design has that other meaning which leans towards cunning and manipulation which is not godlike.)
It's a bit of problem when the solution to men in church seems to be even more self-abnegation by the women. Part of the opening of the book was about God designing the different functions of men and women (who are both fully in His image, right?) to represent the relationship of Christ and the Church. It cunningly avoided pointing out that this meant that male Christians have to adopt a relationship to God that is, if their logic is followed, analogous to that of a woman to her husband (which they all have, of course).
[ 02. December 2015, 16:04: Message edited by: Penny S ]
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I assume this is irony. Otherwise you're piling misandry* on misogyny, and doubly reinforcing the Patriarchy.
Yeah, I was trying to be a smartarse and only got the arse bit right. The article is a bunch of masculine stereotypes cobbled together. I was suggesting it nonetheless fails in the masculine stereotype which is Logic.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
A 'crib service' is one held around the crib - a representation of the manger where they laid the ickle baby Jesus ...
I don't think I've ever been to one, but I've been in services where they've gathered the kids around the crib for a short pep-talk/observations as part of the service.
Thanks Gamaliel.
quote:
Originally posted by kingsfold:
quote:
posted by leo:
Churches are so female on their style that more needs to be done to redress the balance towards males.
I keep hearing this. Maybe I'm lacking imagination, but what is it that makes church male or female in style?
I've heard it too, at least on the internet and in articles—I don't think I've ever actually heard anyone say it in person.
I'm aware that if one looks at membership numbers, there are more females than males, and there are always some women who attend without their husbands. Statistically, there are likely to be more widows than widowers as well.
But in practice, I've never noticed any significant difference in actual attendance or involvement by women vs. men, either in congregations I've been involved in or in neighboring churches.
Is this maybe something that's experienced differently in the UK (or in other parts of the US) compared to the American South?
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
My new local mega church has this all sorted. My curious visit the other day led me first to the snack counter where we could all get donuts and coffee to take with us into the "sanctuary" which was more like an auditorium with comfy seats and cup holders.
A ten piece band gave us some rock music with Jesus' name substituted where "baby," might once have been. Then we had a short sermon by the junior pastor. It was all about soccer, illustrated on the giant screen with a clip from a real game. More rock band, then the main sermon from the senior pastor: all about the team spirit in football,(kind of like the disciples, you know) illustrated by clips from a Big Ten game.
It all must be working. I stepped inside the local supermarket today and there was a huge Christmas tree decorated entirely with small footballs and mugs with team logos.
Twilight, coming to you from the Columbus area where we all worship Ohio State Football.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I have actually sat in the church when the priest (in the Prayers of the People) prayed aloud, "And Lord, we trust it is Your will that the Washington Redskins will triumph in this afternoon's playoff game." The congregation chorused "Amen!" with energy, but alas, the Lord was a Steelers fan...
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Jestocost:
Someone in the Diocese of Oxford with web admin rights might be reading this, because the link in the OP no longer goes anywhere.
Oh good, I tried to link to it and couldn't, so thought it must be becos I is a woman....
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
A shame I missed the link in the OP. Rather than guff culled from 'Ford' and 'Gillette' adverts (which is what I think it might have contained), I wonder if instead it encouraged churches to run straight, un-adorned services with lots of loud congregational singing? Perhaps keeping a bunch of male stewards on-hand to engage newcomers in conversation, who specialise across a range of traditional (DIY / motors / football / gardening) male subjects, perhaps with some correspondents for more minority (bonsai / sculpture / barbershop) interests held in reserve? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I get a lot out of a church men's group - this is a subject which can be addressed sensibly, even if on this occasion, that didn't happen.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
Quick summary, for those who missed it: men attend Christmas Eve services, but don't come for the rest of the year. This must be because church is unappealing to men. So, to make your Christmas and January services appealing:
—Keep sermons short, under 15 minutes (probably good advice) and on "man friendly" topics (WTF are those?)
—Pick hymns men will know (which you probably do at Christmas anyway), and keep them in baritone-friendly keys, so nobody goes to A&E straining for high notes (aren't those also alto/untrained congregational singer friendly keys as well? Isn't this just good advice?).
—Plan a sermon series in January on a "man friendly" topic (again, WTF?), and advertise it during the Christmas service (what, like I'm coming back for sermons? Friggin' hate sermons).
—Deemphasise the infant in the manger; rather, emphasize the active manhood of Christ (it's...Christmas. Um, the baby's kinda the point).
—During the sermon, use sports analogies, and play clips from an action movie or football game (frankly, I'd prefer Father Ted, Firefly, or 'cross racing, but What Do I Know?).
—Keep the wee ones at bay; women dote on Little Angels, men can't stand 'em (strange, my dad seemed to tolerate me for the most part).
You get the idea.
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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
Posts: 6849 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
—During the sermon, use sports analogies, and play clips from an action movie or football game (frankly, I'd prefer Father Ted, Firefly, or 'cross racing, but What Do I Know?).
I would suggest clips from Monty Python. (The Nativity scene from "Life of Brian" would be appropriate, but maybe too baby-oriented.)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Crib services and christingles with gushing mummies are particularly alienating to many men - i avoid them both.
Well, this could be because you're an alpha-male type.
Or it could be because you don't have children.
Or it could be because you don't 'do' cute.
Or it could be because you feel it's kinda patronising and/or majesty-reducing to take such an approach to the birthday celebrations the Lord of the Universe.
Or it could just be personal preference. I'm pretty sure that's what it is in my case.*
It does seem a bit reductionist to align your dislike of a particular kind of church service with your possession of a Y chromosome.
*I am not in possession of a Y chromosome, so it can't be that.
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
My man doesn't like coming to church and has a variety of excuses:
1. I can't sit in the seats as I can't stretch my legs out.
2. It's too long to sit as I like to be able to move around (same excuse for refusing to go to the movies).
3. I don't know the hymns (of course he doesn't as he never comes to church to learn them).
4. My mates don't go
5 Sunday is the only time I have to do the garden, wash the car etc.
6. I don't know anybody
7. I don't like listening to someone talking at me as I want to be able to argue back.
I could go on and on with his excuses. I'm sure people can come up with many more.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
I suspect "I'd rather wash the car" is a more polite version of "I'd rather stick needles in my eyes." And what about the possibility of #8: Atheist / Agnostic, and not going to waste half a day on Pascal's Wager?
Seriously, excuses are excuses. If people don't want to go to church, it's probably because they think it will be two hours of their life they'll never get back and nothing more. Plus at Christmastime, you're expected to believe in virgin births and kneeling animals and a supernova that just happened to blow up so the three astrologer-kings would see it at exactly the right moment millions of years in the future and decide to go check out what was "under" something that is actually millions of light-years away.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Drifting Star
Drifting against the wind
# 12799
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Posted
Nothing is ever really deleted from the internet...
Cached link from the OP. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Heraclitus
Posts: 3126 | From: A thin place. | Registered: Jul 2007
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Jemima the 9th
Shipmate
# 15106
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
.... gushing mummies...
Or to use another term for them, parishoners.
Honestly, what is it with all this "church is too female" bullshit?
Church services are still overwhelmingly run by men. Men are still usually the ordained ones (unless it's NSM / locally ordained ofc, in which case it's free! So let's have a woman do it).
The church doesn't have breasts or a uterus. What are these supposedly female characteristics which are sneered at? Eh?
Yours,
Angry feminist. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posts: 801 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2009
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
Not all men are the same, nor all women but in general, women tend to talk intently about feelings, face t face.
Men tend to talk side by side, often while they are doing something.
I think there are different spirituality styles styles for each gender, just as there are different learning styles.
Passively listening to sermons is more female. Men are more kinaesthetic.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
For the love...are you SERIOUSLY saying these things? SERIOUSLY?
I'm really, really hoping against hope, history, and every appearance that this is perhaps the one documentable case of an American (me) not getting British wit, sarcasm, and irony.
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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
Posts: 6849 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Passively listening to sermons is more female. Men are more kinaesthetic.
Utter nonsense.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Jemima the 9th
Shipmate
# 15106
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Not all men are the same, nor all women but in general, women tend to talk intently about feelings, face t face.
Men tend to talk side by side, often while they are doing something.
I think there are different spirituality styles styles for each gender, just as there are different learning styles.
Passively listening to sermons is more female. Men are more kinaesthetic.
The only true bit of this is the bit of the first sentence that ends at "women". The rest of it is unmitigated bollocks.
Different people may well have different spiritual styles, but their sex has nothing to do with it. I like listening to some sermons. The good ones, that teach me stuff. I don't like talking about my feelings to people face to face, with a very few exceptions (my husband, my closest friend). When I talk to my eldest daughter about her feelings, the idiots at school* and her mental health problems, we tend to do it whilst doing aerobics or watching Sherlock, so we don't have to make eye contact.
This "men do this" "women do that" nonsense is just that, nonsense. And the danger of it is that both men and women are hurt by it because they're expected to behave in a certain way. Women who don't sit and listen passively to sermons (code for the last God knows how many years for "sit down and shut up, little woman") get into difficulties at their church because they're not behaving as they're expected to.
*While we're at it, a significant cause of her current distress is the shit she gets from her classmates for not doing the things that girls are "supposed" to do. So let's not pretend that this is harmless.
[ 03. December 2015, 12:57: Message edited by: Jemima the 9th ]
Posts: 801 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2009
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
If men don't like "passively listening to sermons" then why has a church dominated by men over many centuries evolved this type of service?
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Passively listening to sermons is more female. Men are more kinaesthetic.
Utter nonsense.
Educational research and OFSTED observations avout learning styles are quite extensive.
Hasn't it occurred to you that men (and women, and children) do not go to church to learn?
It may happen. I'd say it is a desirable outcome (provided that what they are taught isn't bollocks). But it should not be the primary objective.
eta to NEQ,
If men don't like "passively listening to sermons" then why has a church dominated by men over many centuries evolved this type of service?
They might not like to listen but they do like to be listened to.
[ 03. December 2015, 13:31: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Jemima the 9th
Shipmate
# 15106
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Posted
And even if there were supposed gender differences in learning styles (and by extension, worship styles), how do we know how much is innate, and how much is socialised? Learning styles have their place, but they can be restrictive if children are only able to see themselves as a certain type of learner (also, worshipper).
Posts: 801 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2009
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
—Keep sermons short, under 15 minutes (probably good advice) and on "man friendly" topics (WTF are those?)
—Plan a sermon series in January on a "man friendly" topic (again, WTF?), and advertise it during the Christmas service (what, like I'm coming back for sermons? Friggin' hate sermons).
—During the sermon, use sports analogies, and play clips from an action movie or football game (frankly, I'd prefer Father Ted, Firefly, or 'cross racing, but What Do I Know?).
Maybe it's just us American evangelicals, but personally, I can't remember a sermon preached by a man which wasn't all about Alpha male interests. If I hear one more lame sports-team analogy (the church is like a team... the pastor is like a coach... the Holy Spirit is the... etc etc etc) I just might chuck a football thru a stained glass window. Which would be bad since, being a pre-title IX female, I'll probably miss and bonk some poor blue-haired granny in the head.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Passively listening to sermons is more female. Men are more kinaesthetic.
Utter nonsense.
Educational research and OFSTED observations avout learning styles are quite extensive.
If only ken were still here to answer this. ![[Tear]](graemlins/tear.gif)
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Passively listening to sermons is more female. Men are more kinaesthetic.
Utter nonsense.
Educational research and OFSTED observations avout learning styles are quite extensive.
If only ken were still here to answer this.
I did try, but I thought the same ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
My man doesn't like coming to church and has a variety of excuses:
1. I can't sit in the seats as I can't stretch my legs out.
2. It's too long to sit as I like to be able to move around (same excuse for refusing to go to the movies).
3. I don't know the hymns (of course he doesn't as he never comes to church to learn them).
4. My mates don't go
5 Sunday is the only time I have to do the garden, wash the car etc.
6. I don't know anybody
7. I don't like listening to someone talking at me as I want to be able to argue back.
I could go on and on with his excuses. I'm sure people can come up with many more.
I'm with your man!
1. If I can't stretch my legs out, my knees start hurting awful after about 15 minutes and the pain gets worse with more time.
2. I've NEVER been comfortable just sitting in one position, need to move!
3. I used to know the hymns but they ditched the hymnals, and change the modern songs so frequently I never do catch on. (Music leader said we are supposed to know the latest songs from the radio. I don't sit around listening to "Christian" radio.)
4. Most of my friends don't go to church. If I have to choose between church or renewing a friendship at refreshing event like gospel brunch or an all day hike, church isn't even in the running. (Church is not at all refreshing or renewing for me.)
5. For my Dad Sunday morning was his only time all week to be alone, as an introvert he desperately needed that refreshment. The family, the car pool, the work place, the car pool home, the family - not a moment of alone quiet except Sunday morning. Some people thrive on being always surrounded by people, some need alone time.
6. For non outgoing people, it's hard to meet people and get to know them. Also, depends on the church but one friend said to me "5 years in this church, in choir, on committees, but people barely say good morning at coffee before turning away to be with their friends." Nice guy, but in some churches if you weren't born there you are forever invisible.
7. I hate being lectured like a school kid as if the lecturer is the only one with anything useful to say and we ADULTS can't possibly have a valid thought question or disagreement, just shut and listen and don't question. Might made made sense centuries ago when only clergy and royalty could read, not today.
It's not men, it's that church is designed for a narrow range of personalities.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Passively listening to sermons is more female. Men are more kinaesthetic.
Utter nonsense.
Educational research and OFSTED observations avout learning styles are quite extensive.
If only ken were still here to answer this.
Suffice it to say that a quick Google search reveals mostly people pointing out that the evidence does not support the idea. Sure, some people like doing some things more than others, but that doesn't mean it feeds into learning outcomes.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
Ref, Leo's post. I'm amazed that rational people are still plugging conclusions about a patriarchal institution, executed under an almost exclusively male-leadership and male-theology for the past 2,000 years, being 'so female', and therefore in need of 'redress'. It's as if the last two millenia not only didn't exist but didn't even have a glancing influence on present day religion. When are we going to not only acknowledge our history, but learn from it?
And even if it were true that there was something significantly feminine - even female - about the institutions and characteristics of the Church (or the Bride of Christ as she has been known to be called) I'm wondering why this is usually a term used so perjoratively? 'Oh good grief, this is so female! Quick, let's get a big dose of testosterone, so we can get things back to NORMAL!'
As for crib and christingle services. They require a lot of hard work, and quite specific worship-leading skills to make them into successful and ejoyable acts of pastoral/outreach centred worship. The fact that they can be a bit hit or miss, too, makes them a little too risky for some clergy to want to spend the effort; and I have a lot of sympathy for that view!
Many ministers feel exactly the same way about liturgical, or choir-led services, of course.
Special Christmas services like cribs and Christingles are tough options, but can be very worthwhile in helping young families and children - largely unchurched - to relate to Christmas as a religious festival. Often their only opportunity to do so. But it could be argued you've got to know what you're doing, and be positively responsive to the constituent congregations. As with any style of worship, I suppose.
And, leo, I notice that Daddies (and grandaddies, brothers, uncles, grans, aunties etc) often attend, too. Can't say I find either sex of parent 'alienating'. But maybe I've just not experienced the level of female 'gushing' that seems to offend you so much? Or maybe male 'gushing' is so much more acceptable? Or maybe men are just too manly and masculine to 'gush' at all; 'gushing' being solely some alienating thing only mummies do? One hopes Jesus' mummy had the good sense not to gush over her first-born. How alienating would that have been. ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
Of course, one could always counter-balance all this huge weight of inappropriate female-ness in a religious setting (oh, scandal!) by simply reminding people it's all about the SON of God; a God who generally, I believe, is still 'He' in most of our minds and language? Or are babies, of both sex, too alienatingly feminine, too, to be taken seriously?
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
quote:
Nothing is ever really deleted from the internet...
Cached link from the OP. [Big Grin]
Hey, thanks. Well, if you want to reach men who don't come to church much, nothing there strikes me as particularly bad advice. It's not half as bad as I was expecting...
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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