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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Because 35k p.a. is chicken feed obviously
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
Normally I don't bother railing against the petty, stupid, vindictive, discriminatory, blinkered, tabloid-placating follies of the present government, being as they are so many and so vile that there would be little time for anything else.
But this takes the biscuit:
'In April (2016) the Home Office and Theresa May are introducing a pay threshold for people to remain here, after already working here for 5 years. This only affects non-EU citizens that earn under £35,000 a year, which unfairly discriminates against charity workers, nurses, students and others.
This ridiculous measure is only going to affect 40,000 people who have already been living and working in the UK for 5 years, contributing to our culture and economy. It will drive more workers from the NHS and people from their families. This empty gesture will barely affect the immigration statistics. It's a waste of time, money and lives.
This is the first time the UK has discriminated against low-earners. £35k is an unreasonably high threshold. The UK will lose thousands of skilled workers.'
You will find the link to the petition in my signature.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
This doesn't affect me since I'm from an EU country, but I currently work in the UK and I earn less than 35k.
[ 18. January 2016, 12:22: Message edited by: LeRoc ]
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
It will drive more workers from the NHS and people from their families. This empty gesture will barely affect the immigration statistics. It's a waste of time, money and lives.
It's not an empty gesture unfortunately. It makes perfect sense to me. This government is hell bent on destroying the NHS and this is just another nail in the coffin.
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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The Phantom Flan Flinger
Shipmate
# 8891
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Posted
I don't know what you're complaining about.
No sensible, compassionate government would bring in such a policy without making sure any negative effects were mitigated.
It seems obvious that the minimum wage will be raised to £35k - good news for everyone.
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http://www.faith-hope-and-confusion.com/
Posts: 1020 | From: Leicester, England | Registered: Dec 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
I don't know what you're complaining about.
No sensible, compassionate government would bring in such a policy without making sure any negative effects were mitigated.
It seems obvious that the minimum wage will be raised to £35k - good news for everyone.
That's what people are supposed to think. While government policy is driven by a combination of corporate interests and cheap shots by the press drumming up jingoistic fear, democracy doesn't get a look in.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I wish the PM would send me somewhere warm. I've never earned anything like £36k. How about if I pretend I don't speak English, David?
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
I don't know what you're complaining about.
No sensible, compassionate government would bring in such a policy without making sure any negative effects were mitigated.
It seems obvious that the minimum wage will be raised to £35k - good news for everyone.
That's what people are supposed to think. While government policy is driven by a combination of corporate interests and cheap shots by the press drumming up jingoistic fear, democracy doesn't get a look in.
Hmm! Either my irony meter is on the blink, or yours is.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
While I think this is another piece of vile policy, it would be worth discussing if the wages for nurses, council employees etc were set at this level as a minimum (it doesn't need to be a full minimum wage, just in those areas that the government has more control over).
As it is, this just says to those working as hard as fuck but not getting properly remunerated that they are not wanted.
It will actually make very little difference to the statistics. But it will make a big difference to a number of people. Another case of this governments arrogance and disregard of other people. And PATHETIC focus on money over all else.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
I don't know what you're complaining about.
No sensible, compassionate government would bring in such a policy without making sure any negative effects were mitigated.
It seems obvious that the minimum wage will be raised to £35k - good news for everyone.
That's what people are supposed to think. While government policy is driven by a combination of corporate interests and cheap shots by the press drumming up jingoistic fear, democracy doesn't get a look in.
Hmm! Either my irony meter is on the blink, or yours is.
Mine I expect. Years of working for the government has taught to read the words and only the words. Any attempt to extract meaning from them is doomed.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
This doesn't affect me since I'm from an EU country,
Yet.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
I suppose a cold, rational, uncaring government might look at an immigrant who has been here for 5years and never worked but survived on the generousity of the public purse (whether through state welfare or the support of others in the community) as being a drain on the economy and therefore unwelcome.
But, in what sort of universe does that logic extend to people who work hard, earn money, pay taxes, buy goods and services, create economic growth that increases job opportunites for all, and generally contribute to society? It makes no sense at all. How to improve public finances, get rid of a load of tax payers! Bonkers, totally bonkers.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
This doesn't affect me since I'm from an EU country,
Yet.
Good one.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
This doesn't affect me since I'm from an EU country,
Yet.
A perverse consequence of this policy - to my mind, anyway - is that it would favour, say, an EU citizen from the Balkans over a Commonwealth citizen from, say, Canada or Australia who would have a much greater cultural affinity with Britain. Though I don't know whether the government would have the power at the moment to remedy this.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
I'm all for cutting immigration, but I'd start with the richer immigrants. At least poor migrants come here to work, rather than to dodge taxes at home or launder their money by driving our property prices up.
That said, we do also need to get ourselves out of this mindset that we can just get our workers from elsewhere, without having to pay to train them or anything like that. When we had an empire, we started by taking raw materials from poorer countries, and then used those countries as protected markets for our own exports. Now we take labour from poorer countries. It's the same economically imperialist mindset and it's profoundly unhealthy. Time we started living on our own resources.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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JonahMan
Shipmate
# 12126
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Posted
Michael Rosen has an excellent response to the "teach Muslims English so they don't go and join ISIS" nonsense:
Michael Rosen
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Thank God for the aged
And old age itself, and illness and the grave
For when you're old, or ill and particularly in the coffin
It's no trouble to behave
Posts: 914 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Dec 2006
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
Hmm, Junior Doctors, nurses - NZ may improve its public health services at last.
Huia - ducks and runs
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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The Phantom Flan Flinger
Shipmate
# 8891
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
A perverse consequence of this policy - to my mind, anyway - is that it would favour, say, an EU citizen from the Balkans over a Commonwealth citizen from, say, Canada or Australia who would have a much greater cultural affinity with Britain. Though I don't know whether the government would have the power at the moment to remedy this.
They could remedy it by not bringing in such an idiotic policy in the first place.
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http://www.faith-hope-and-confusion.com/
Posts: 1020 | From: Leicester, England | Registered: Dec 2004
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
One suspects they thought 'non-EU - that'll be places like Syria and Somalia so just brown and black folk then' rather than places like the USA, Canada, Australia etc whose expats might actually be white. Ah, but if we throw in the 35k, it'll just be poor white people, and since we don't care about the ones that live here ordinarily...
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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The Phantom Flan Flinger
Shipmate
# 8891
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
I don't know what you're complaining about.
No sensible, compassionate government would bring in such a policy without making sure any negative effects were mitigated.
It seems obvious that the minimum wage will be raised to £35k - good news for everyone.
That's what people are supposed to think. While government policy is driven by a combination of corporate interests and cheap shots by the press drumming up jingoistic fear, democracy doesn't get a look in.
Hmm! Either my irony meter is on the blink, or yours is.
Mine I expect. Years of working for the government has taught to read the words and only the words. Any attempt to extract meaning from them is doomed.
Funny, years of working for the government has taught me to always look for the hidden meaning.
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http://www.faith-hope-and-confusion.com/
Posts: 1020 | From: Leicester, England | Registered: Dec 2004
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
Hooray! More jobs will be available to British workers, which will surely result in falling unemployment and a reduction in poverty!
Oh wait, you're saying this is a bad thing?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
It's probably a desperate plan to get more cash into the Treasury, but if this levy will primarily affect nurses, doctors, teachers and IT specialists then a lot of it will be paid by the public sector to HMT, which is "funny money" in the first place, and the net effect will be a reduction in the payments made by the Treasury to the NHS, Dept for Education and government departments administering IT projects.
Dumb or what?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Hooray! More jobs will be available to British workers, which will surely result in falling unemployment and a reduction in poverty!
Oh wait, you're saying this is a bad thing?
Jobs have been available for British workers to apply to for years. It's just that many don't want to take them because of low pay and long hours, e.g. strawberry picking, care agencies, nursing, etc.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
But actually they bloody well should take them if they have no other means of supporting themselves. And they should then get themselves unionised to makw their pay and conditions better. Importing migrant labour allows neoliberal capitalists (in government and the private sector) to keep these jobs poorly paid and precarious. We shouldn't be objecting to migrant workers themselves: we should be objecting to the system that brings them here (and of which they are often victims).
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
If anybody wants to work in Aberdeenshire as a care worker, there are dozens of jobs. Care homes are desperate for staff. We will have a care crisis here if migrant workers can't come and British people aren't willing to move into the area.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Hooray! More jobs will be available to British workers, which will surely result in falling unemployment and a reduction in poverty!
You do realise that 'being employed' and 'in poverty' are not mutually exclusive states, right?
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
British shops will be able to sell less stuff to people.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Jobs have been available for British workers to apply to for years. It's just that many don't want to take them because of low pay and long hours, e.g. strawberry picking, care agencies, nursing, etc.
If low pay is the problem then I guess the employers will have to start paying an amount British people will accept rather than undercutting them by hiring immigrants.
If long hours is the problem regardless of the amount if pay on offer then that's just British people being workshy, and we'll have to find some other way to motivate them to do it...
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Hooray! More jobs will be available to British workers, which will surely result in falling unemployment and a reduction in poverty!
You do realise that 'being employed' and 'in poverty' are not mutually exclusive states, right?
We're talking about jobs that pay up to £35,000 per year. While I accept that that will include some jobs that are poorly paid, most of them will be well above the poverty line.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
If anybody wants to work in Aberdeenshire as a care worker, there are dozens of jobs. Care homes are desperate for staff. We will have a care crisis here if migrant workers can't come and British people aren't willing to move into the area.
Does Aberdeenshire have 100% employment? If not, what's wrong with all the unemployed locals that means they're not willing to take the jobs that are available to them?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
If low pay is the problem then I guess the employers will have to start paying an amount British people will accept rather than undercutting them by hiring immigrants.
This is bullshit. Our standard of living is based on cheap labour - if you want to have a high standard of living which everyone can afford, you have to get cheap labour from somewhere.
If you increase the labour costs, that will make it unaffordable and uncompetitive - for example care of senior citizens would become something nobody could afford, leading to an increase in other people having to stop work and so on.
In the past, this cheap labour came from the working and underclass in this country who were prepared to live short, shitty lives based on hard manual labour whilst the middle-classes moaned about their immorality from their sofas.
More recently the gap has been filled with waves of immigration, with the promise of hard work leading to a better tomorrow for themselves and their children.
Most recently the gap has been filled with temporary Eastern European workers, prepared to work for low pay for a few years, after which many return to live a better life in their country of origin from their savings.
Hardly a great solution, I agree, but castigating those who are working hardest to keep the country afloat is just ![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
So... you think it's a good thing that so many British employers can exploit immigrant workers by paying them far less than they would have to pay a British worker?
Fair enough.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Hooray! More jobs will be available to British workers, which will surely result in falling unemployment and a reduction in poverty!
What will happen is that we'll pack off the one set of workers just as they're getting their feet on the pay ladder, and send for another set of workers who will have to start from the beginning again.
I suspect the reason we can't find enough British people to do the work is that we don't invest enough money in training them. Instead we get other countries to train them for us. No matter how eager someone is to find work, you don't want them looking after you after an operation if they don't know the difference between an intravenous drip and a catheter.
The unemployment rate is largely made up not of people who permanently can't find work, but of people who can only find intermittent temporary jobs.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
If anybody wants to work in Aberdeenshire as a care worker, there are dozens of jobs. Care homes are desperate for staff. We will have a care crisis here if migrant workers can't come and British people aren't willing to move into the area.
Does Aberdeenshire have 100% employment? If not, what's wrong with all the unemployed locals that means they're not willing to take the jobs that are available to them?
Have you ever heard of zero hours contracts? Lack of convenient transport? being tied to home by care responsibilities of ones own? Being physically unable to do a number of jobs while capable of doing many others.
Your continued ignorance shouldn't surprise me by now, but it does.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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The Phantom Flan Flinger
Shipmate
# 8891
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
If long hours is the problem regardless of the amount if pay on offer then that's just British people being workshy, and we'll have to find some other way to motivate them to do it...
Like motivating employers to not expect long hours, so that people can have a decent work/life balance.
Or should people have to work long hours for a pittance, and have no quality of life whatsoever?
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http://www.faith-hope-and-confusion.com/
Posts: 1020 | From: Leicester, England | Registered: Dec 2004
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Hooray! More jobs will be available to British workers, which will surely result in falling unemployment and a reduction in poverty!
Oh wait, you're saying this is a bad thing?
Dear The Times, today I saw the first Lump Labour Fallacy of spring.
Ricardus
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
If long hours is the problem regardless of the amount if pay on offer then that's just British people being workshy, and we'll have to find some other way to motivate them to do it...
Like motivating employers to not expect long hours, so that people can have a decent work/life balance.
Or should people have to work long hours for a pittance, and have no quality of life whatsoever?
Better pay would mean people could work fewer hours means the work there is could be shared among more people. Sounds good to me.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Jobs have been available for British workers to apply to for years. It's just that many don't want to take them because of low pay and long hours, e.g. strawberry picking, care agencies, nursing, etc.
If low pay is the problem then I guess the employers will have to start paying an amount British people will accept rather than undercutting them by hiring immigrants.
If long hours is the problem regardless of the amount if pay on offer then that's just British people being workshy, and we'll have to find some other way to motivate them to do it...
High pay and bonuses seem to be essential to keep city traders and bankers here. How about trying that for the rest?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Does Aberdeenshire have 100% employment? If not, what's wrong with all the unemployed locals that means they're not willing to take the jobs that are available to them?
Have you ever heard of zero hours contracts? Lack of convenient transport? being tied to home by care responsibilities of ones own? Being physically unable to do a number of jobs while capable of doing many others.
I've heard of all of those things. Are you suggesting that every single unemployed person in Aberdeenshire is affected by at least one of them?
I note in passing that Aberdeenshire actually does have one of the lowest unemployment rates in Scotland, so that could be closer to the truth than one would normally assume.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
If low pay is the problem then I guess the employers will have to start paying an amount British people will accept rather than undercutting them by hiring immigrants.
If long hours is the problem regardless of the amount if pay on offer then that's just British people being workshy, and we'll have to find some other way to motivate them to do it...
High pay and bonuses seem to be essential to keep city traders and bankers here. How about trying that for the rest?
You mean like I said in the first paragraph of the post you quoted?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
If low pay is the problem then I guess the employers will have to start paying an amount British people will accept rather than undercutting them by hiring immigrants.
If long hours is the problem regardless of the amount if pay on offer then that's just British people being workshy, and we'll have to find some other way to motivate them to do it...
High pay and bonuses seem to be essential to keep city traders and bankers here. How about trying that for the rest?
You mean like I said in the first paragraph of the post you quoted?
Even you are probably aware that city traders and bankers are of the same kind as those who run and own the country. Others need the kind of economic muscle that trade unions used to provide but the "Radical Conservatives" destroyed them. rest of uis need
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
If anybody wants to work in Aberdeenshire as a care worker, there are dozens of jobs. Care homes are desperate for staff. We will have a care crisis here if migrant workers can't come and British people aren't willing to move into the area.
Does Aberdeenshire have 100% employment? If not, what's wrong with all the unemployed locals that means they're not willing to take the jobs that are available to them?
Prior to the recent fall in oil prices, Aberdeen had a person: job ration of 1:1.2 i.e. there were more jobs than people. The unemployment rate was 2.2%, and not all of those 2.2% would be able to take shift work if they had e.g. dependent children.
There have been lay-offs in the oil industry, but men who have been laid off from the oil rigs are unlikely to have the qualifications needed for a care worker.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Missed edit window.
quote:
If not, what's wrong with all the unemployed locals that means they're not willing to take the jobs that are available to them?
The problem arises with people whom employers are unwilling to employ - poor references, criminal record, etc etc.
Or they have e.g. caring responsibilities which restricts what they can do, or they can't access jobs because of transport issues.
[ 19. January 2016, 19:55: Message edited by: North East Quine ]
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
If anybody wants to work in Aberdeenshire as a care worker, there are dozens of jobs. Care homes are desperate for staff. We will have a care crisis here if migrant workers can't come and British people aren't willing to move into the area.
Does Aberdeenshire have 100% employment? If not, what's wrong with all the unemployed locals that means they're not willing to take the jobs that are available to them?
Most professions paying £35,000 are graduate professions. Many people do not have, and may not have the capacity to obtain, degree level qualifications.
Meanwhile, care work requires you to pass a CRB check, so ex-offenders are not going to be able to work in that field. E.g. If you have a conviction for ABH you are not going to get work with vulnerable people.
Plus people some people simply lack the organisational skills.
[ 19. January 2016, 21:11: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
So... you think it's a good thing that so many British employers can exploit immigrant workers by paying them far less than they would have to pay a British worker?
No, I think the proposal punishes the exploited worker rather than the exploiting employer.
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Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Missed edit window.
quote:
If not, what's wrong with all the unemployed locals that means they're not willing to take the jobs that are available to them?
The problem arises with people whom employers are unwilling to employ - poor references, criminal record, etc etc.
Or they have e.g. caring responsibilities which restricts what they can do, or they can't access jobs because of transport issues.
Yes. It's easy to say "why not take this job?" but quite often the problem is not being offered the job even though it exists. Doesn't matter how willing you are to work if for whatever reasons you don't get the job offers.
It's like people say to me, if I don't like my job, why don't I get another one? Well, that's exactly what I've being trying to do for over a year, but you can't force employers to take you on.
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Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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the famous rachel
Shipmate
# 1258
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Posted
Leaving strawberry pickers etc aside for now, since this proposal relates to skilled migrants, I just want to point out the hoops you already have to jump through to recruit these people:
At least under the rules my employer sticks to, to issue a Tier 2 Certificate of Sponsorship so that a skilled migrant from outside the EU can get a visa, you have to be able to show that the post has been advertised widely and that nobody from the EU with the appropriate skills has applied. For me, employing highly-specialized scientific researchers to work in an academic context that is often the case. For some of the jobs we advertise they may be only a handful of qualified individuals in the world. I can't just magic up highly-trained British people out of thin air!
Under the new rules, it seems that if I recruit a highly skilled scientist straight out of their PhD from overseas, and they work for me for 5 years, developing their skillset further and becoming a valuable member of my research team, they will then have to leave the country, as their salary after 5 years will "only" be about £32,000. That could easily mean losing the only person in the world with their specific skillset to a competitor group overseas. Since much of my research is linked to industry and some of my researchers work directly with UK industry, providing information which can increase productivity and profits, UK industry will take a direct hit as well as UK innovation. [sarcasm] But at least we'll have cut migrant numbers by one, so that's OK [/sarcasm].
Actually, in the above scenario, I would probably use some fancy footwork to get the person in question bumped up the payscale so they were above the threshold. However, given fixed project budgets, that will leave me with less money to pay other researchers, so it will still negatively impact my research and might limit (for example) the duration of contact I could offer to someone from the UK coming out of the PhD programme to be trained in another post.
All of this is sadly quite likely, even though it only arises when I essentially had to employ the overseas person as I had no other options of employing qualified EU people. If the regulations were enforced, I would HAVE TO take a nominally equally qualified EU person over an overseas person, even if I considered them significantly less able based on their CV, performance at interview etc.
The unintended consequences of these immigration policies in my line of work have already been huge and are set to get worse. There is a lot of cost just in dealing with all this crap, and for the NHS it must be a huge burden on time and resources... all to try and keep out skilled people who we need anyway.
Best wishes,
Rachel.
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Posts: 912 | From: In the lab. | Registered: Aug 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
We actually have some interesting challenges in my current work. I should point out that most of the teams I have worked in over the last decade plus have been multi-national, and often included someone from outside the EU. This is the nature of IT development teams today.
We are currently trying to recruit. We have not been inundated with applications, because we are near London, and most people will go to London and earn more. So we are struggling to get people. We have recently made offers to two people, both non-UK nationals (and one from outside the EU). The truth is, we just don't get the quantity and quality of applications to be picky. As it is, we are paying at a higher rate for this role, but we have been looking for a less well qualified person too.
So we have few options. We could make sure that everyone we take on is paid more than 35K. If a lot of places do this, we would have rampant inflation, which is not a good thing. We could take on UK nationals, except that they don't apply (well, they do, but it is a meaningless restriction to put on our struggling recruitment). Or we could just do less work, bringing productivity down, which is probably what will happen (and is happening).
Longer term, it may mean that we restructure to have more senior people and less juniors. So if we - and presumably others - don't want to fill vacancies for inexperienced roles, for graduates, for 25-30YOs looking for a slightly more senior job, then what effect with that have on UK employment?
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Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
There are large parts of the UK employment sector where the entry qualification requirement (which may be academic, previous work experience or a combination of both) restricts the pool of potential employees. Very few of those employment opportunities will have a £25k+ starting salary, allowing for a £35k+ salary after 5 years. And, probably no small number of them would also be suitable for non-EU workers who are already employed in the UK - for whom the window of employment is going to be less than 5y. It isn't even necessarily just those jobs with very narrow academic abilities (such as the aforementioned research and IT sectors); imagine the owner of a restaurant in Edinburgh seeking a new bar manager, with several Australian staff who have spent the last 4 years working behind the bar there and would be ideal candidates to manage the bar - should he then promote one of the staff he knows are competant, but find them "sent home" after a year and need to go through the process again, or employ an EU citizen who hasn't worked for him?
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Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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