Thread: Introverts are bloody selfish! Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
This thread is born out of a thread in All Saints but it's a frustration I live with all the time.

People, stop making a virtue of being introverted!

If you are so tied up in yourself and how people see you, what's the virtue in that?

Can't you just work on forgetting yourself for a while and simply enjoy life?

Is finding out what others are up to SUCH a huge chore that you have to curl up and run away if they so much as look at you?

FFS!!



 

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Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :
 
Though extroverts are just as bad.

Can't you just enjoy life without forcing yourself on those around you? Is it such a chore to find out if the person you're with wants to hear everything about you before you splurge out your life details. What's wrong with a few seconds of silence that you feel the need to fill it with the sound of your voice?

FFS!!


 

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Posted by Helen-Eva (# 15025) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:
If you are so tied up in yourself and how people see you, what's the virtue in that?

Can't you just work on forgetting yourself for a while and simply enjoy life?

Is finding out what others are up to SUCH a huge chore that you have to curl up and run away if they so much as look at you?

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Unhellish answers:
1 - there isn't one, obviously. We just can't help it.
2 - we can't. Really. I've tried SOOO hard over the years and finally accepted it just doesn't work.
3 - unfortunately yes.

Can't you treat introversion like a disability rather than a life choice? I didn't choose to be this way.
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Boogie--

I don't think anyone on the AS thread said extroverts are bad--just that some aspects of church can be uncomfortable for introverts. If you went to a Quaker meeting that practiced silence, or a silent meditation session, you might feel just as uncomfortable.

As with many differences, maybe think of it as being left-handed in a right-handed world. I'm not sure of any personality stats, whether in worship communities or general society. But it seems to me that there are lots of introverts, lots of extroverts, and lots of people in between. A wise worship community tries to find ways to acknowledge, accommodate, and honor all of them.
 

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Posted by Helen-Eva (# 15025) on :
 
Goldenkey
 

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Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
I think it helps to start by understanding what an introvert actually is. Admittedly the definition does vary a bit, but I think Jung's original intent is the most helpful. It isn't social agility v. social awkwardness. One can be an introvert and navigate the social just fine. And the reverse. It is about where one is centered. Our behaviour is a result of various influences, not always a direct link, so looking at social abilities as a marker isn't completely helpful.
But to Boogie's complaint, it hammers and nails.
 

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Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
It made me smile, to see introversion in hell.

However, it wasn't particularly funny, when I was young, as I got badgered with 'don't be shy' and so on. Fuck off, I am shy.

However, I got over that, and accepted the way I am. In fact, I socialize quite well, I just don't like people invading my space.

Selfish? Not sure about that. I think that's orthogonal to intro/extro. I've met plenty of extroverts who are fairly narcissistic. I used to know an MP, who was incredibly extrovert, talked all the time, to whoever, but if you sat with him for a while, you realized how me-me-me he is.

I think Merton said that as he went inside, he got more in touch with the world, a nice idea.

[ 16. March 2016, 09:39: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
 

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Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on :
 
I don't quite understand - I enjoy life, and I'm an introvert. It's not a virtue, it's just who I am. The problem especially for Christian introverts is that (some) churches are built around extroversion to an unhelpful degree, where extroversion really is seen as a virtue.

Introversion isn't a synonym for being anti-social, and extroversion isn't a synonym for being friendly.
 

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Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
It's not just church, is it? I think extroversion has been extolled quite widely in Western culture. I remember at school being told that I had to come out of my shell, so fuck off to that.

I worked with quite a few people (in therapy) who had had their introversion pathologized in one way or another, so they had to destress themselves over it, and learn to accept themselves.

Of course, some introverts are the life and soul of the party, quite confusing really. Well, it's not black and white.
 

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Posted by Spike (# 36) on :
 
I'm an extrovert married to an introvert and I think the OP is total bollocks
 

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Posted by Liopleurodon (# 4836) on :
 
I'm not shy. I'm introverted as all hell though. I'm not proud of that, but I'm not ashamed of it either. When I did finally learn of the introvert/extrovert scale and what it means, it was a big relief. I was a student at the time, and there was tremendous peer pressure to always be out there, socialising, drinking, partying, in and out of each others' rooms all the time. The extroverts found this exhilarating. The introverts got burnt out and depressed very quickly. The culture was that you could get tired out reading books all the time so then you went off to the pub to recharge. My pattern was the exact opposite, but it was very difficult to express that, particularly as people tended to brand you as a loser if you did.

So learning that introversion was a thing was really useful. I am very, very introverted. I'd probably be happy doing 99% of my human interaction online. I like cats more than people.

That said, there has been a bit of a backlash in recent years, with introverts getting a bit snobby and superior. I've seen articles about "this is what introversion is" which were accurate and helpful, but I've seen many others which were snotty and entitled. And the people who are really into being introverted as a huge part of their identity often seem to see extroverts as basically mouth-breathing social whores, so I can understand the frustration.

I'm going to suggest, though, that the OP is based on a misunderstanding of what introversion is.

[ 16. March 2016, 10:40: Message edited by: Liopleurodon ]
 

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Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
My son was the shyest child I have ever met, he was selective mute until 8 years old. He is now a confident young man who loves and seeks out company.

He was (sensibly) encouraged to learn to socialise.

I have two friendly, sociable dogs. Like humans, dogs are social animals. We go walking and they run and play with lots of other friendly, sociable dogs. Then we meet one snappy, unpleasant thing which can't stand to have other dogs near it - why their owner brings it to a dog busy area I don't know. But some introverts remind me of this dog. 'Leave me alone' writ large. They 'shout' "Let me be myself" without allowing us chatty ones the same privilege.
 

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Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Liopleurodon:

I'm going to suggest, though, that the OP is based on a misunderstanding of what introversion is.

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I think you are right - I can't begin to imagine what it's like.

I find introverts are attracted to me my husband and closest friends are introverts. I have learned to chat very little at home - and that's fine, we get on well.

Don't get me wrong, I like being alone too - it's just that I adore being part of a big group, chatting and laughing. The best thing about teaching was the staff room imo.

Oh yes - this sums up my husband and close friends. They miss out on so much fun!

[ 16. March 2016, 10:48: Message edited by: Boogie ]
 

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Posted by Macrina (# 8807) on :
 
Oh bugger off.

I spend my life having to justify a preference to recharge my batteries in peace and quiet.

I like people. I enjoy people. I just need my quiet time.

You try spending a week completely alone and then complain about how narcissistic we all are.
 

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Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
Well, I like being part of a big group. I am the classic life and soul of the party. However, I am an introvert, quite clearly. I remember living in a student house, and finding it intolerable, moved out on my own, ah, bliss.

I am also married to an introvert, so it's very quiet in our house!
 

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Posted by Liopleurodon (# 4836) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:
My son was the shyest child I have ever met, he was selective mute until 8 years old. He is now a confident young man who loves and seeks out company.

He was (sensibly) encouraged to learn to socialise.

I have two friendly, sociable dogs. Like humans, dogs are social animals. We go walking and they run and play with lots of other friendly, sociable dogs. Then we meet one snappy, unpleasant thing which can't stand to have other dogs near it - why their owner brings it to a dog busy area I don't know. But some introverts remind me of this dog. 'Leave me alone' writ large. They 'shout' "Let me be myself" without allowing us chatty ones the same privilege.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Macrina:
Oh bugger off.

I spend my life having to justify a preference to recharge my batteries in peace and quiet.

I like people. I enjoy people. I just need my quiet time.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Macrina:

You try spending a week completely alone and then complain about how narcissistic we all are.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:

I find introverts are attracted to me my husband and closest friends are introverts. I have learned to chat very little at home - and that's fine, we get on well.

Don't get me wrong, I like being alone too - it's just that I adore being part of a big group, chatting and laughing. The best thing about teaching was the staff room imo.

Oh yes - this sums up my husband and close friends. They miss out on so much fun!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:
My son ... was (sensibly) encouraged to learn to socialise.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:
This thread is born out of a thread in All Saints but it's a frustration I live with all the time.

People, stop making a virtue of being introverted!

If you are so tied up in yourself and how people see you, what's the virtue in that?

Can't you just work on forgetting yourself for a while and simply enjoy life?

Is finding out what others are up to SUCH a huge chore that you have to curl up and run away if they so much as look at you?

FFS!!

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quote:

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I really tried to give you the benefit of the doubt but you're being really fucking stupid here. This is on a par with "ADHD people are stupid. Learn to sit down, shut up and focus on a textbook like I can, for hours on end, enjoying every moment of blessed solitude. You're missing out on so much fun AND knowledge!" Turns out that not everyone has the same brain.

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I think this is a crucial point, as it illustrates prejudice and intolerance. It ranks with 'pull your socks up' about depression, and other ailments. It also smacks of a monolithic view of people, which I find very peculiar.
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Boogie--

Sounds like the problem is that you're unhappy with your close circle of introverts, and are taking that out on all introverts.

I'm sorry you're frustrated and unhappy--and, I'm guessing, lonely. But you really misunderstand introverts.

Why not find some extroverts to hang out with? Online, or off.
 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
Thinking of the Canal Boat example Boogie gave on the AS thread, could I point out that if I were on a boat and manoeuvring a lock, and some random other boater started asking me where I came from and what I did and all that, I'd try, politely to end the conversation. I don't really see the point in sharing my life story with a total stranger, and I'd actually feel a bit miffed that someone thought it was appropriate to ask me to do so.

I'm really, really struggling to work out why the poor bloke who just wants to float down the canal is the rude one, rather than the total stranger who's just started trying to exchange personal details.

You may not realise this, Boogie, but talking about the things people always ask, "what are you doing at the weekend?" "where are you going on holiday" etc. etc. is actually really trying and tiring. I'd rather people didn't. If I want them to know I'll tell them.

We introverts nevertheless have to put up with a certain amount of this chit-chat, but it's hard work. We're constantly making allowances for you extroverts, but you don't realise it, but the moment we start suggesting you make allowances for us, it's a Hell thread.

[ 16. March 2016, 11:40: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Yes - sorry Boogie, but you've missed the point by a country-mile.

I've done various psychosometric tests and leadership tests and so on and my personality type is pretty odd ... which may not surprise anyone here.

In some ways I'm quite introverted - which doesn't mean I'm shy or socially awkward. It simply means that I draw on my own inner-resources or like my own company at times rather than seeking external affirmation ...

But at the same time, I can be quite extroverted - I'd be the one wanting to dash up to the castle, I like conviviality, I like company, I like banter, jokes ... I host events, I compere open-mic poetry evenings ... I can talk until the cows come home ...

And yes, I crave affirmation at times ... I want to be liked, I want people to notice me ...

So I'm a wierd mix of all these things.

My wife is very introverted and I wouldn't pretend that's been easy. As a consequence, our social lives have effectively developed in very different ways - and whilst we have some friends in common, for the most part we socialise separately - which doesn't mean we don't get on ...

As far as churchy things go - I've done the whole gamut from loud and lairy charismatic through to contemplative silence and all stations in between.

One of the things that bugs me at the mo' is how so many churches are trying to consciously position themselves as places which offer 'fun' ... well stuff that ... If I want fun I'll go to the pub, I'll organise an arts event, I'll go and read my poems somewhere and like the sound of my own voice ...



There's nothing worse than enforced jollity. 'Come to church folks, it'll be fun, fun, fun!'

No it fucking well isn't. The next person who tells me that church should be 'fun' will get a broadside that they won't find 'fun' at all.

You want fun? Well, fuck off and get a life ... go and join something, go to stock-car racing events or to Alton Towers (my idea of Hell) or disappear with your partner for a weekend of rampant sex ...

Just don't come round here expecting me to enjoy your piss-poor jokes in church of a Sunday morning or 'do the little actions' with the pre-schoolers.
 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
Oh Flying Spaghetti Monster, action songs, now that's a subject for Hell if ever there was one.

Never liked them, even (especially even) as a child. Why exactly should I want to do this?

I used to have a particular hatred of the Hokey Cokey as well. You get on with it, I'll go on a mental Safari in the Jurassic period, much more fun.
 

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Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
I did meet some brilliant people on canal boats, and had great chats. That's not inconsistent with being an introvert at all.

Well, we have a spectrum rather than a black and white distinction. My wife is an introvert, and remembers going to the pub in her nightie, and getting up on the table to sing, bloody show-off.
 

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Posted by Helen-Eva (# 15025) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Yes, that's quite familiar, people telling me what fun I should be having. Well, I bought into that during my youth, and felt miserable a lot of the time. Then I realized that my idea of fun was quite different.

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Me too!! Isn't it wonderful when you discover that you're not actually an awful person for not enjoying the stuff other people enjoy!

I'm off to recharge my batteries in my lunchhour at work by finding somewhere quiet and reading a book and not talking to anyone. If I don't do that I'll be horrible and stupid all afternoon. [MORE horrible and stupid ]
 

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Posted by Rocinante (# 18541) on :
 
I Have Myers-Briggs profile INTP, with a very strong I. This is the ideal personality type for the work I do, which has been variously engineering/ IT/ Analytical/ Research. Doesn't mean I can't talk to people, I just prefer to go deeply into something ON MY BLOODY OWN.

My first year of college (living in halls) was the worst of my life. People popping in and out of my room, constant socialising, endless wackiness designed to ensure that extroverts never had to confront the gaping void at the centre of their souls. 2nd year, moved out into a bedsit. Bliss.

Extroverts in the workplace - god what a nightmare they are. Let's call a meeting, 2 hours of yada yada yada and at the end of that we'll pretend we've achieved something. FUCK OFF I'M WORKING.
 

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Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Helen-Eva:

quote:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Yes, that's quite familiar, people telling me what fun I should be having. Well, I bought into that during my youth, and felt miserable a lot of the time. Then I realized that my idea of fun was quite different.

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Me too!! Isn't it wonderful when you discover that you're not actually an awful person for not enjoying the stuff other people enjoy!

I'm off to recharge my batteries in my lunchhour at work by finding somewhere quiet and reading a book and not talking to anyone. If I don't do that I'll be horrible and stupid all afternoon. [MORE horrible and stupid ]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Golden Key:


Why not find some extroverts to hang out with? Online, or off.

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I do

I still enjoy staffroom banter twice a week and have lunch/coffee with chatty friends regularly. But fast flowing conversation isn't as easy to come by as it was in my yoof, that's true.

The meme I put up about 'we like to think before we speak' is fine when in a meeting, serious discussion etc where careful thought is needed. But when chatting - why?? Why not just let the conversation flow?

Seems like a need to be right over sociability to me.
 

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Posted by Sipech (# 16870) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:

The meme I put up about 'we like to think before we speak' is fine when in a meeting, serious discussion etc where careful thought is needed. But when chatting - why?? Why not just let the conversation flow?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sipech:

Typing on a computer is much easier, as there's a backspace key, allowing you to choose more carefully. In spoken conversation, I come across as even more of an idiot than I do online.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
You going to engage with anything that anyone has said about "my brain just plain doesn't work that way?" Boogie? Or are you going to just assume that everyone is being difficult when we fail to be you?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:

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Originally posted by Sipech:

Typing on a computer is much easier, as there's a backspace key, allowing you to choose more carefully. In spoken conversation, I come across as even more of an idiot than I do online.

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Maybe this is at the core of it - extroverts are less worried about what people think of them?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:
Maybe this is at the core of it - extroverts are less worried about what people think of them?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Erik:

quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:
Maybe this is at the core of it - extroverts are less worried about what people think of them?

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You just don't get it. It's not about what people think of me. You ask why I have to think before I speak. Why can't I just talk without thinking and let the conversation flow? BECAUSE I CAN'T. I don't work that way. Don't you get that your essentially saying 'Why can't you be more like me?'

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quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:
The meme I put up about 'we like to think before we speak' is fine when in a meeting, serious discussion etc where careful thought is needed. But when chatting - why?? Why not just let the conversation flow?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:

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Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
You going to engage with anything that anyone has said about "my brain just plain doesn't work that way?" Boogie? Or are you going to just assume that everyone is being difficult when we fail to be you?

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"Fail to see what I'm getting at" would be more to the point.

I think the Ship is pretty much full of introverts and sometimes they speak as if it is odd needing ordinary, everyday, normal conversation.

I also wonder, looking at the All Saints thread, why they go to Church at all? I go because my friends are there (having pretty much no faith in God left). Going through the motions alone, then going home alone - no contact. Is that really what Church is for?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Erik:

quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:
Maybe this is at the core of it - extroverts are less worried about what people think of them?

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You just don't get it. It's not about what people think of me. You ask why I have to think before I speak. Why can't I just talk without thinking and let the conversation flow? BECAUSE I CAN'T. I don't work that way. Don't you get that your essentially saying 'Why can't you be more like me?'

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quote:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
That's one of the reasons for Hell, isn't it? I mean, you can let off steam, and saying something idiotic and exaggerated.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:
But when chatting - why?? Why not just let the conversation flow?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
That's one of the reasons for Hell, isn't it? I mean, you can let off steam, and saying something idiotic and exaggerated.

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Well, yeah, with the fucking great target painted on your arse proviso.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Thinking of the Canal Boat example Boogie gave on the AS thread, could I point out that if I were on a boat and manoeuvring a lock, and some random other boater started asking me where I came from and what I did and all that, I'd try, politely to end the conversation. I don't really see the point in sharing my life story with a total stranger, and I'd actually feel a bit miffed that someone thought it was appropriate to ask me to do so.

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quote:

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Originally posted by goperryrevs:

In terms of worrying what people think about people think of them, insecure people worry about that. You can get insecure introverted people and insecure extroverted people.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:
But cringing when someone talks to you isn't about 'enjoying recharging batteries' or enjoying quiet time.

Why not try showing those people that you enjoy them?

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quote:

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:
... church is a social activity.

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quote:

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:
So, I finally took the time to read the AS thread in question and understand Boogie's frustration. The Church that would satisfy the bulk of the participants on that thread would drive people like her at least as mad as they feel. And how would that be fair?
I am a true introvert, and shy as well, but I have good social skills* and can be outgoing to the point that most people wouldn't twig on the introversion.
Most of the AS thread is discussing social anxiety rather than introversion, and church is a social activity. Can it be designed better?
Probably. Should it be? It depends upon the balance of the needs of the group. Not everyone will be perfectly happy.
That said, I do think that a Hell call was a bit OTT. AS is for commiseration, so the comments will tend to be skewed.


*Where these skill miss is when my need for separation outpaces social interaction.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:


I also wonder, looking at the All Saints thread, why they go to Church at all? I go because my friends are there (having pretty much no faith in God left). Going through the motions alone, then going home alone - no contact. Is that really what Church is for?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:
The meme I put up about 'we like to think before we speak' is fine when in a meeting, serious discussion etc where careful thought is needed. But when chatting - why?? Why not just let the conversation flow?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:
I also wonder, looking at the All Saints thread, why they go to Church at all? I go because my friends are there (having pretty much no faith in God left). Going through the motions alone, then going home alone - no contact. Is that really what Church is for?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dark Knight:
Idiotic OP based on a misunderstanding of the central concept.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ariel:
There is a difference between being that kind of introvert and just being a quiet person, confident in yourself and happy in your own company, but also able to enjoy being with others when the occasion arises.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dark Knight:
Idiotic OP based on a misunderstanding of the central concept.

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OK, I'll just go and eat worms

quote:

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Originally posted by Helen-Eva:
I don't know what's the right kind of sympathy or commiseration or affirmation to express about not having much faith left. .

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ariel:
It's not a party. It's the House of God, a dedicated space where you go to focus on God, hopefully without the distractions of a more secular place. All else is secondary. If you want to perceive it primarily as a social venue that's up to you.

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Why have collective worship if it's not collective? I get that there need to be quiet times, times of silence, times of listening. But we are social animals, we were 'made' that way. To want to go into Church and have no contact with others, just God? - they may as well watch and listen to a service online. It's like trying to play football without any other players present.
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Boogie--

Re "made that way":

You were made that way. Others, another way.

And, it seems a wide spectrum of folks are uncomfortable at being stuck in the other's milieu.

To quote "The Wizard Of Oz": What did you learn from this, Boogie?

 

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Posted by Dark Knight (# 9415) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by RooK:

quote:

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Originally posted by Dark Knight:
Idiotic OP based on a misunderstanding of the central concept.

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Welcome to the Ship!

Oh, wait; you're not new. Just somehow in need of stating the obvious on page-2 of a thread where people have stated so at length.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:
Why have collective worship if it's not collective? I get that there need to be quiet times, times of silence, times of listening. But we are social animals, we were 'made' that way. To want to go into Church and have no contact with others, just God? - they may as well watch and listen to a service online. It's like trying to play football without any other players present.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Liopleurodon:

Boogie, I'm going to say this again: being introverted is not something you choose. Extroversion likewise. I could ask you: why are you so clingy?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Golden Key:

To quote "The Wizard Of Oz": What did you learn from this, Boogie?

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That plenty of introverts are willing to explain how their brain works

Here is an interesting article.
 

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Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 

quote:

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quetzalcoatl: But this idea of turning to your neighbour to chat, reminded me of my callow youth, when I ran various therapy groups, encounter groups, and the like, where this was a basic structure. Get in pairs and chat, and then get in 4s and introduce your partner to the others, and then ... Well, it did sort of work in a way.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:
Why have collective worship if it's not collective? I get that there need to be quiet times, times of silence, times of listening. But we are social animals, we were 'made' that way. To want to go into Church and have no contact with others, just God? - they may as well watch and listen to a service online. It's like trying to play football without any other players present.

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quote:

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Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:

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quetzalcoatl: But this idea of turning to your neighbour to chat, reminded me of my callow youth, when I ran various therapy groups, encounter groups, and the like, where this was a basic structure. Get in pairs and chat, and then get in 4s and introduce your partner to the others, and then ... Well, it did sort of work in a way.

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This is still very common in trainings etc in Brazil.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ariel:

The tradition I'm used to is one where you turn up for a service as people filed out of the door after the last one. Services were back to back, and very little time in between. The idea that people would actually use the church as a social centre and stop and have coffee afterwards is totally alien to what I know. Communion is a symbolic feast but also, a deeply private and personal moment.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:
A feast between you and God then? Like a drive in MacDonalds?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:

Of course being introverted isn't a choice - but acting as if extroverts are like this simply to be annoying is a choice!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:
This thread is born out of a thread in All Saints but it's a frustration I live with all the time.

People, stop making a virtue of being introverted!

If you are so tied up in yourself and how people see you, what's the virtue in that?

Can't you just work on forgetting yourself for a while and simply enjoy life?

Is finding out what others are up to SUCH a huge chore that you have to curl up and run away if they so much as look at you?

FFS!!

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Ariel:
More like a glass of wine and something special with and from someone you cared about. This is that time, set apart, for you to do so.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ricardus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:

Of course being introverted isn't a choice - but acting as if extroverts are like this simply to be annoying is a choice!

---

Yes, as is acting as though introverts are all selfish insecure miseryguts who are obsessed with being right all the time.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

Think of a wedding. Getting married is often a very public, communal activity--we had 400 at our wedding--and even the state gets a look-in. Our wedding was extremely family-focused, and we spent our whole reception seeing to the comfort of our guests. .

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ariel:
More like a glass of wine and something special with and from someone you cared about. This is that time, set apart, for you to do so.

---

And you need other people there at the same time?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:
All right, all right. Forget the communion and the sermons and even the prayers. Let's all sit round in a circle and chat to each other for an hour. That'll be fellowship and we'll all feel enriched and fuller members of the human race for sharing our experiences.

---

 

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
Is that what you actually want from a church?
 

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Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ricardus:
Yes, as is acting as though introverts are all selfish insecure miseryguts who are obsessed with being right all the time.

---

Very true, very true.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie
If you are so tied up in yourself and how people see you, what's the virtue in that?

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Moo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie
If you are so tied up in yourself and how people see you, what's the virtue in that?

---

I heard a talk given by a psychologist who specialized in this type of individual differences. He said that introverts are more aware of the feelings of the people they are dealing with than extroverts. The introverts are quiet observers.

Moo

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quote:

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Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
Introversion is just this: some people find being around people tires them out (introverts) while others find it energises them (extroverts). That's it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:
... I dislike much of what happens in Church, especially forced interactions with those next to you. ...

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Doublethink.:

No it isn't, you are describing socialbility (sort of).

---

Fascinating, thank you.

So that's where I got the word 'fun' from!
 

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Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
I'm an extrovert. My self-judgement may be flawed of course, but I don't feel that I'm unaware of other people's feelings.
 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Way to go on reading for comprehension, folks. The analogy was between wedding and communion, not the entire church experience. And the first rule of interpretation is not to press the analogy past the point of comparison, unless you want to doofus it up like some people do the parables. But whatever.

I looked at the link, and I want to know (and can't find out): what is the essayist's authority for what he/she says? Is that person a psychologist or what? Because a lot of what he/she said contradicts what I studied in the master's in counseling program. And the idea that extraverted activity leads to more happiness sounds, frankly, like bullshit.
 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
The linked study does not support the conclusions of the Tumblr article.

I quote:

quote:

---

First, causality of the extraversion–positive affect relationship was
not established in any of the studies. However, the point of the
studies was to investigate whether the extraversion–positive affect
relationship found in so many other studies also is evident within
person.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Another problem for some extroverts is wanting to do something, in a kind of busy busy way.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Another problem for some extroverts is wanting to do something, in a kind of busy busy way.

---

Now I'm confused. I manage social interaction, but find it exhausting and would prefer to sit quietly with someone than talk about nothing of importance. Sharing feelings and personal stuff is almost impossible. Conversely I enjoy discussions of politics, the faith etc, and find such conversations refreshing. Which I always took to be fairly classic introversion.

But, I can't stop and do nothing. I need to be doing something. It might be something to watch on TV, a book to read, a computer game to play. The idea of a holiday which consists of sitting on a beach doing nothing all day is close to my idea of Hell - give me museums, scenery to admire, even a day shopping for shoes! Does that make me extrovert then?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
The linked study does not support the conclusions of the Tumblr article.

I quote:

quote:

---

First, causality of the extraversion–positive affect relationship was
not established in any of the studies. However, the point of the
studies was to investigate whether the extraversion–positive affect
relationship found in so many other studies also is evident within
person.

---

In other words, people acting more extravertedly are happier. However, there's no evidence that it's the extraversion state that's causing the increased happiness. Indeed, I suspect it's the other way around - when we're happier, we find it easier to adopt a state of extraversion. This tallies with my own experience far better than the converse.

---

quote:

---

You have a great need for other people to like and admire you. You have a tendency to be critical of yourself.
You have a great deal of unused capacity which you have not turned to your advantage. While you have some personality weaknesses, you are generally able to compensate for them. Your sexual adjustment has presented problems for you. Disciplined and self-controlled outside, you tend to be worrisome and insecure inside. At times you have serious doubts as to whether you have made the right decision or done the right thing. You prefer a certain amount of change and variety and become dissatisfied when hemmed in by restrictions and limitations. You pride yourself as an independent thinker and do not accept others' statements without satisfactory proof. You have found it unwise to be too frank in revealing yourself to others. At times you are extroverted, affable, sociable, while at other times you are introverted, wary, reserved. Some of your aspirations tend to be pretty unrealistic. Security is one of your major goals in life.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:

Of course being introverted isn't a choice - but acting as if extroverts are like this simply to be annoying is a choice!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Macrina:
Oh bugger off.

I spend my life having to justify a preference to recharge my batteries in peace and quiet.

I like people. I enjoy people. I just need my quiet time.

---

We all need our quiet time. But cringing when someone talks to you isn't about 'enjoying recharging batteries' or enjoying quiet time.

Why not try showing those people that you enjoy them?

quote:

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Originally posted by Macrina:

You try spending a week completely alone and then complain about how narcissistic we all are.

---

You mean I wouldn't like it or I would? Not sure what you are getting at?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:
I'm intrigued by how many people seem to manage the art of never being alone and have company 24 hours a day, without actually realizing it.

This is likely to be true of anyone in a relationship and full-time employment, especially if they have children, or lift-share on their way to a job in an open plan office. It's also true of people in shared houses or flats, and people who constantly keep in touch on their mobiles.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:

Of course being introverted isn't a choice - but acting as if extroverts are like this simply to be annoying is a choice!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
To want to go into Church and have no contact with others, just God?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:

The meme I put up about 'we like to think before we speak' is fine when in a meeting, serious discussion etc where careful thought is needed. But when chatting - why?? Why not just let the conversation flow?

Seems like a need to be right over sociability to me.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Here's the problem: say there are people who value quiet, and peace, and other people who value noise and communication. That's fine, but put them in the same space, and the noisy people drown out the quiet ones. A quiet neighbour won't stop a noisy person being noisy, but a noisy neighbour stops a quiet person from having quiet.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
So, if you want your service to include a time to share prayer requests and concerns, fine go ahead but make it optional ("please feel free to sit quietly and pray if you prefer, please don't force others to talk to you").

---

This would be unutterably lovely.

Truly, if they all want to get up and conga line around the sanctuary, that's fine too. Just don't make ME do it.

Since I think in analogies (apologies to the non-analogists), I'm going to riff off Athrawes' fine post. Extroverts who don't self-monitor (which is some, not all of them) are like the people who sit down in a pew and spread themselves and their belongings. Which is fine until you have to sit there as it's the last spot in church, and they stare blankly at you and only move when you specifically ask them to--and then, only enough for you to sit on one buttock. Not out of meanness, but because they haven't observed that you are a tad chubby, and they haven't connected that fact with the idea that their purse or jacket might be moved to another location. (Yes, this happened to me. Yes, I did everything short of saying "excuse me, but I happen to be fat." Yes, I spent the service on one buttock to avoid the shame of having to spell it out that way.)

Basically, if your (general your) personality naturally expands to fill the available mental and aural space, it's great if you can develop self-monitoring and observational skills sufficient to make room for the introverts who come in and don't want to say, "Shut up, wouldja?" Because they won't. But they'll be thinking it.
 

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Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I'm not even entirely sure that is the problem - at least for me. I don't need silence to be content, I don't need to be on my own either. I need a break from interacting with other people. I'm able to fade out the background noise of other people. But, it needs to stay background noise.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
For reference, I can spend hours sitting reading in the company of one or more of my family, and the only sound that any of us will make is offering the others a cup of tea at some point. And that's perfectly sociable, and there's no reason to fill the companionable silence with blether.

---

 

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Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :
 
Like so, so many other folks around here, I'm kind of an introvert. Big Surprise. I also work a customer service/retail job, hang around in coffee shops, talk to strangers about bicycling and transportation equity (usually working in a good feminist rant along the way), enjoy parties and the company of friends, and go to church.

Then I get home and wonder how the fuck I managed to do all that shit without freaking out.

Like, I hate small talk. Fucking hate that meaningless, pointless, waste-of-time bullshit. Don't ask me how my day is when I first get to work. I just got to work. My day just started, and the part that's passed has been 1. waking up, just like every other day; 2. making and drinking coffee, just like every other day; 3. reading the paper, just like every other day; 4. riding to work, just like every other day. So WHY THE HELL are you ASKING ME how it's going? IT'S THE FUCKING SAME AS IT WAS YESTERDAY AND THE DAY BEFORE, YOU MORONIC TWATWAFFLE! GROW A BRAIN AND FIGURE OUT THAT YOU'RE ASKING THE DUMBEST, MOST MEANINGLESS QUESTION EVER!

...I'm really not a morning person.

So, much as I love conversation, I hate pointless, "polite" questions. Much as I can talk all day about bikes while at work, I kinda turn quiet whenever somebody asks me for bike advice when I'm off the clock...unless it's an old Schwinn or something I don't have to sell, in which case, I can talk about a hobby, sure. I can do a job, punch a clock, and enjoy it, true, but don't ask me to work after hours. I know not to go off on my rants about the history of American urban planning or intersectional feminism in transit or the late 1980's in bike technology or aesthetic theory in Japanese ceramics or anything I studied in grad school, even if I occasionally do it anyway despite myself (and regret it once I'm home).

I like being around people. I like meaningful conversations. Can we skip the insincere bullshit, though? The acting like we Care, that God is calling us into Relationship with one another, trying to heal the rifts that keep us from Meaningfully Relating? Can we go without sharing our deepest fears we confess only before God? Our hopes and prayers for all people? Those are personal, pastor, and not all of us are ANYWHERE NEAR COMFORTABLE sharing that kind of deep and dark shit with people we see only in church—fuck, I wouldn't usually share any of that with my girlfriends, best friends, or family members, and wouldn't hardly expect to hear it from them!

Why do I go to church, then? Why hang around coffeeshops? Why work in retail? Why be a transit activist? Why be around people, when I'm supposed to hate them?

I don't hate people. I don't hate conversation. I just hate bullshit.

You want to find a great bike? Cool! Let's talk about what you love, what you want, what makes you happy. I don't care about the weather, I don't want to talk about how I am today, and no, I'm not exactly comfortable telling you my name.

On the street talking about transit? Hey, if you light into me talking about all the problems "you people" cause, I can calmly address your points. I can cite statistics and fact, and make a case. I can even tell you that we're doing X, Y, and Z to make things better. Please, however, do not call me your friend. I'm not. We just met.

Coffee shop? I'll talk to baristas. Ask about origin, sourcing, roasting, preparation, how that really cool Slayer dual-phase machine works. Cupping? I'm there. Let's talk procedure, water temperature, flavor notes. Latte art competition? Loud, raucous, like caffeinated Thunderdome? I'm quiet. Sure, there are lots of interesting people—but I'm focused on the process, the art, the competition, the craft. I'm in a groove, the same one I'm in when watching glassblowers, potters, artisans. Where do I work, what do I do? Who cares! Look, I overhaul bottom brackets, my hands still smell like grease, you don't really want to know about any of that. It ain't glamorous. Trust me, it ain't. I'm trying to get away from it right now. You're being polite asking, thank you, but I wish you'd let me get back to analyzing that rosette.

Church? Let's honor God together. Let's act in ways we can only do communally. It's different than private prayer. It's a form of action, of worship, of devotion that can't be offered alone. It's like raising a barn—it takes a community to do it. It may be a little uncomfortable, and I'll never learn to like sermons, but it's for the sake of God. Heck, I might even figure out that some people need the Peace, public declaration of prayer intentions, and a sermon the way I have to have the Kyrie, the readings, and the Eucharist. I crave order in my worship, a common devotion to God, free from small talk and overly earnest and (to my mind) insincere bullshittery about entering into Relationship.

So I tend to meditate on stained glass during sermons, grit my teeth and remind myself it's for other people who need it during the Peace, and not roll my eyes during oversharing during prayers. Some people need that the way I need a nice and orderly coming together to focus on God. It doesn't mean I'm not an introvert, this needing to be around people. It doesn't mean I'm unsocial, being an introvert. It may mean that I express my need for society differently than some other people do, and have trouble reading small talk and chatter as anything other than insincere, vacuous, and annoying.

As I keep thinking, maybe church is exactly what I need as an introvert—a sort of community and sociability focused entirely on God, on something greater than which cannot be thought. Maybe that's why I'm so inextricably drawn to the communion rail, to the Body and Blood; it's a bullshit-free community, a chance to come together and be united by Christ, skipping all the remarks about the weather and my weekend and focusing completely on the love of God and the mystery of faith.
 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 

 

---

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
For reference, I can spend hours sitting reading in the company of one or more of my family, and the only sound that any of us will make is offering the others a cup of tea at some point. And that's perfectly sociable, and there's no reason to fill the companionable silence with blether.

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Macrina:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:
I'm intrigued by how many people seem to manage the art of never being alone and have company 24 hours a day, without actually realizing it.

This is likely to be true of anyone in a relationship and full-time employment, especially if they have children, or lift-share on their way to a job in an open plan office. It's also true of people in shared houses or flats, and people who constantly keep in touch on their mobiles.

---

So non-hellish. I have a full time job as a nurse, this means when I am at work I usually have a lot of face to face contact with patients who require a lot of emotional support and empathy. I love my job.

I can't afford a house yet so I live in a shared house.

I am a millenial so yes I have my phone a lot.

What do I do? On my first days off or when I get home from work I shut the door to my room and chill out with netflix or the ship, if I am not tired I go for a walk around my city and get a coffee somewhere quiet. Usually I have at least one of my days off packed with people but when I don't get my quiet day in I get this horribly full busy feeling in my head and find I get irritable far more easily.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:
I visit my mother for a weekend every month, and we invariably spend a measureable portion of the weekend reading, with occasional interruptions for tea and to read a particularly good line or two aloud. It's wonderful.

---

Some of the times I treasure most with my late mother are the days we used to chat on the phone for hours. We would often both end up crying laughing about something which tickled us. Wonderful.

Fine sitting companionably with people you know - nothing wrong with that. But strangers/semi-starngers/aquaintances - the best way to get to know them, especially in groups, is to talk with and listen to them. This is very obvious imo.

My husband said the other day 'David is a great bloke you know, he really knows his stuff about gardens' I told him that five years ago! But that's how long it took to get to know him. I always tell friends who think he (my husband) doesn't like them 'don't worry, he'll chat to you fine when he's known you ten years'

Of course a few beers helps the conversation along too - can't get a word in edgeways then.
 

---

Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Here's the problem: say there are people who value quiet, and peace, and other people who value noise and communication. That's fine, but put them in the same space, and the noisy people drown out the quiet ones. A quiet neighbour won't stop a noisy person being noisy, but a noisy neighbour stops a quiet person from having quiet.

---

I'm not even entirely sure that is the problem - at least for me. I don't need silence to be content, I don't need to be on my own either. I need a break from interacting with other people. I'm able to fade out the background noise of other people. But, it needs to stay background noise.

What doesn't work is finding a quiet corner to read (or, for others it might be knitting), and have people come up and insist that I need to join in the fun by sharing with everyone what my favourite colour is, or what I think about some reality TV show I've no interest in. I'm not going to insist that others join in the fun of reading a good book, I'm not going to insist that they go and have their favourite colour conversation elsewhere.

All I want, all any of us wants, is a bit of respect and to be treated with some dignity. So, if you want your service to include a time to share prayer requests and concerns, fine go ahead but make it optional ("please feel free to sit quietly and pray if you prefer, please don't force others to talk to you").

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariston:

Like, I hate small talk. Fucking hate that meaningless, pointless, waste-of-time bullshit.

---

This sums up your long, rambling post.

You simply don't get it!

The small talk is a lead into conversation - it's the ice breaker, the sociable way of gently finding out if the person wants to chat.

So, me at the canal lock - "Have you come far?"
Other person "No, just from Foxton" silence.
Me - silence, do lock, go back on boat.

(That was an introvert, totally uninterested except for getting the lock done)

Next lock me "Have you come far?"

Other person "Yes, we came from Foxton today and .... chat about when they started, ehare they have been, when they are going home ... "

Me "What do you think about the refurbished pub at Foxton"

Other person "Not keen ... nice chat about beers etc"

(My type of chat )

PS Ariston - no need to shout

 

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Posted by Macrina (# 8807) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doublethink.:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Macrina:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:
I'm intrigued by how many people seem to manage the art of never being alone and have company 24 hours a day, without actually realizing it.

This is likely to be true of anyone in a relationship and full-time employment, especially if they have children, or lift-share on their way to a job in an open plan office. It's also true of people in shared houses or flats, and people who constantly keep in touch on their mobiles.

---

So non-hellish. I have a full time job as a nurse, this means when I am at work I usually have a lot of face to face contact with patients who require a lot of emotional support and empathy. I love my job.

I can't afford a house yet so I live in a shared house.

I am a millenial so yes I have my phone a lot.

What do I do? On my first days off or when I get home from work I shut the door to my room and chill out with netflix or the ship, if I am not tired I go for a walk around my city and get a coffee somewhere quiet. Usually I have at least one of my days off packed with people but when I don't get my quiet day in I get this horribly full busy feeling in my head and find I get irritable far more easily.

---

You see, I read this and think - what is it about your experience that makes you think you are an introvert ?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doublethink.:
You see, I read this and think - what is it about your experience that makes you think you are an introvert ?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
Fine sitting companionably with people you know - nothing wrong with that. But strangers/semi-starngers/aquaintances - the best way to get to know them, especially in groups, is to talk with and listen to them. This is very obvious imo.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doublethink.:
You see, I read this and think - what is it about your experience that makes you think you are an introvert ?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
Fine sitting companionably with people you know - nothing wrong with that. But strangers/semi-starngers/aquaintances - the best way to get to know them, especially in groups, is to talk with and listen to them. This is very obvious imo.

---

You don't get it, do you. Talking isn't the only way you find out things about people. Sit and watch them for a bit. You might be surprised what you pick up from that. Family dynamics, relationship tensions, states of health, the way they live - the things people wear, the way they hold themselves, their body language, all of this can say so much. Spoken words can be deceptive but actually watch people and see what you can pick up. It can be fascinating, revealing, illuminating. We broadcast quite a lot about ourselves through the medium of our choices, conscious and unconscious. What people say and what they actually believe or do can be quite different.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Another problem for some extroverts is wanting to do something, in a kind of busy busy way.

---

Now I'm confused. I manage social interaction, but find it exhausting and would prefer to sit quietly with someone than talk about nothing of importance. Sharing feelings and personal stuff is almost impossible. Conversely I enjoy discussions of politics, the faith etc, and find such conversations refreshing. Which I always took to be fairly classic introversion.

But, I can't stop and do nothing. I need to be doing something. It might be something to watch on TV, a book to read, a computer game to play. The idea of a holiday which consists of sitting on a beach doing nothing all day is close to my idea of Hell - give me museums, scenery to admire, even a day shopping for shoes! Does that make me extrovert then?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doublethink.:
You see, I read this and think - what is it about your experience that makes you think you are an introvert ?

---

Yes, exactly. The "quiet day" is still filled with people. If you wander round a city, go to a coffee shop, hang out on the Ship or spend time on your phone you're still "being with people". You may not be actually directly speaking to them but their presence makes the experience what it is. The snatches of conversation, laughter, shouts, calls you hear in crowded places, the chat in a text-based medium, it's still company.

I'd regard someone as an introvert if they lived alone, worked from home full time on something like computer programming, and liked to spend their spare time getting away from people and going off into the wilds alone.

Contact with people is what keeps most of us relatively sane and knocks the corners off; too much isolation can send you nutty; but different people need different levels.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:
Talking isn't the only way you find out things about people. Sit and watch them for a bit. You might be surprised what you pick up from that. Family dynamics, relationship tensions, states of health, the way they live - the things people wear, the way they hold themselves, their body language, all of this can say so much. Spoken words can be deceptive but actually watch people and see what you can pick up. It can be fascinating, revealing, illuminating. We broadcast quite a lot about ourselves through the medium of our choices, conscious and unconscious. What people say and what they actually believe or do can be quite different.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:


What doesn't work is finding a quiet corner to read (or, for others it might be knitting), and have people come up and insist that I need to join in the fun

---

quote:

---

Ariston: Like, I hate small talk. Fucking hate that meaningless, pointless, waste-of-time bullshit. Don't ask me how my day is when I first get to work. I just got to work.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
You simply don't get it!

The small talk is a lead into conversation - it's the ice breaker, the sociable way of gently finding out if the person wants to chat.

---

That's fine as long as it IS being used as an ice-breaker. I'm a sociable introvert who enjoys a good conversation.

Some people, however, don't treat the small talk just as an ice-breaker, they go on and on and on with meaningless, superficial waffle. And that is draining, a waste of my precious energy (and theirs, IMO). If you're going to engage me in conversation, make it interesting, for pete's sake.

I am surprised at some of the stereotypes about introverts. There is not one cookie-cutter size which fits everyone, as per Karl's point above. The idea that introverts don't want to have fun and never, ever go to parties is just plain wrong. I enjoy a party, as long as I can get some time-out to recharge the batteries.

Introverted is not the same thing as being shy. Shy people are usually introverts: that doesn't mean that all introverts are shy.

It's certainly not the same thing as being selfish.
 

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Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariston:

Like, I hate small talk. Fucking hate that meaningless, pointless, waste-of-time bullshit.

---

This sums up your long, rambling post.

You simply don't get it!

The small talk is a lead into conversation - it's the ice breaker, the sociable way of gently finding out if the person wants to chat.

So, me at the canal lock - "Have you come far?"
Other person "No, just from Foxton" silence.
Me - silence, do lock, go back on boat.

(That was an introvert, totally uninterested except for getting the lock done)

Next lock me "Have you come far?"

Other person "Yes, we came from Foxton today and .... chat about when they started, ehare they have been, when they are going home ... "

Me "What do you think about the refurbished pub at Foxton"

Other person "Not keen ... nice chat about beers etc"

(My type of chat )

PS Ariston - no need to shout

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
I have no idea where you get 'clingy' from. I simply enjoy hearing people's stories, I enjoy biographies. Plenty of people like to tell their stories too. I would love those who have never done it to enjoy having an animated, spontaneous conversation with a group of people. Rather like my son, who learned to do this and now loves it.

Of course being introverted isn't a choice - but acting as if extroverts are like this simply to be annoying is a choice!

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
One of the great things about introverts is we're often very good at putting on a front. So we may be smiling because we like you, or we may be smiling and imagining what it would be like to wear your skin.

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Posted by goperryrevs (# 13504) on :
 

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Extroverts who don't self-monitor (which is some, not all of them) are like the people who sit down in a pew and spread themselves and their belongings. Which is fine until you have to sit there as it's the last spot in church, and they stare blankly at you and only move when you specifically ask them to--and then, only enough for you to sit on one buttock.

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Cenobite: I rarely venture into Hell

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Originally posted by Penny S:
I think I get the acting thing. You put on a persona that isn't yours. You are, technically, not metaphorically, a hypocrite, behind a mask. This is freeing. And the interaction is provided for you.
Except with improv, which is definitely not something I get at all. Like small talk.

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Originally posted by LeRoc:

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Cenobite: I rarely venture into Hell

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(Another introvert lured into Hell by this thread. A couple more, and we can close the trap.)

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Uh-oh - is it too late to escape?!
 

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Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :
 

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
One thing that used to interest me was the idea that most actors are introverts. This is a kind of cliche that is passed around, and I haven't been able to find any actual statistics on it.

People cite famous actors who are supposed to be introverts, e.g. people often cite Harrison Ford, but then it's really difficult to get more detail on this. He was a quiet kid at school, blah blah blah.

But at any rate, if there are quite a few introverted actors, it shows how complicated intro/extroversion is.

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
I have done a lot of improv theatre, and in my experience it involves your real self interacting with the real selves of other actors very much.

Yes you're playing roles, but an interaction on a rather personal level needs to take place to allow your creativity to interact with the other person's creativity.

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Interesting. Play is learning, improv is pretty much a play experience. When kids on a playground act out stories, they are similarly "trying each other out."


(And I have thought about doing improv-- pretty recently too. Ariston, if you wanna do a long distance audio podcast version, hit me up. )
 

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Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
Well, in old age, I now talk to everybody anywhere. It's something to do with not caring, if I look an idiot.

So I could describe my life in phases - up to 35, manically extrovert; 35-60 fiercely introverted, almost hermitic; 60 onwards, insanely chatty.

It just shows you, eh? There's nowt so funny as folk.
 

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Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
I have done a lot of improv theatre, and in my experience it involves your real self interacting with the real selves of other actors very much.

Yes you're playing roles, but an interaction on a rather personal level needs to take place to allow your creativity to interact with the other person's creativity.

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Originally posted by Liopleurodon:

Extroverts are not doing this in order to be annoying, although God knows I find it irritating to be asked if I have plans for the weekend by someone I'll never see again. It's just how you are. For fuck's sake extend the same courtesy to other people.

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I do, I do all the time.

Thus this thread. It was a knee jerk reaction, I confess. But, nonetheless - just as you get irritated by small talk I get very, very tired of curbing the fun side of my nature to keep my introverted friends and family comfortable.

I also confess to using the word 'selfish' in the title to draw people in to the conversation (boy, it worked!) I don't think introverts are any more selfish than anyone else - but I do think they are too concerned with what others think of them. 'I only speak when I feel I can contribute' 'I only like meaningful conversations' 'I need to think before I speak' 'I can't bear to be the centre of attention' all speak, to me, of self-consciousness which can look a lot like lack of interest in other people.
 

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:
But, nonetheless - just as you get irritated by small talk I get very, very tired of curbing the fun side of my nature to keep my introverted friends and family comfortable.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:

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Originally posted by Liopleurodon:

Extroverts are not doing this in order to be annoying, although God knows I find it irritating to be asked if I have plans for the weekend by someone I'll never see again. It's just how you are. For fuck's sake extend the same courtesy to other people.

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I do, I do all the time.

Thus this thread. It was a knee jerk reaction, I confess. But, nonetheless - just as you get irritated by small talk I get very, very tired of curbing the fun side of my nature to keep my introverted friends and family comfortable.

I also confess to using the word 'selfish' in the title to draw people in to the conversation (boy, it worked!) I don't think introverts are any more selfish than anyone else - but I do think they are too concerned with what others think of them. 'I only speak when I feel I can contribute' 'I only like meaningful conversations' 'I need to think before I speak' 'I can't bear to be the centre of attention' all speak, to me, of self-consciousness which can look a lot like lack of interest in other people.

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Originally posted by Boogie:
But, nonetheless - just as you get irritated by small talk I get very, very tired of curbing the fun side of my nature to keep my introverted friends and family comfortable.

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I don't think introverts are any more selfish than anyone else - but I do think they are too concerned with what others think of them. 'I only speak when I feel I can contribute' 'I only like meaningful conversations' 'I need to think before I speak' 'I can't bear to be the centre of attention' all speak, to me, of self-consciousness which can look a lot like lack of interest in other people.

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No, that's not it. It's not always related to 'what people think of us'. Some introverts ARE excessively self-conscious, but it's a mistake to think that all of us are, or that we are all of the time.

The main reason why I 'only speak when I feel I can contribute' and I 'only like meaningful conversations' and I 'need to think before I speak' is because I am wired that way , NOT because I am actively suppressing anything, and not always because I care about what others might think. It's pretty much because the energy would literally drain out of me if I operated in any other way.

I need to think before I speak because a lot of other people are saying very worthwhile things. There's no point in my repeating them. It takes up precious time and energy. Introverts aren't repressing our natural personalities or our life-force. We are simply being ourselves.

Also, some of us have been bullied for being introverts. I was very quiet and shy as a child, and easily upset by verbal bullying. I am not shy as an adult, indeed I am a friendly person with fairly good social skills but I am still very much an introvert, and always will be. It doesn't mean that I'm not interested in people!
 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 

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Originally posted by Ariston:

There's a part of me that wants to try improv comedy... I'd have to become someone completely different, adopt tropes and personae nobody would ever associate with me, down to gender, name, appearance...

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I have done this on occasion--not improv comedy, but becoming somebody almost completely different, usually for brief moments involving a telemarketer or a scary stranger on the street. It is amazingly fun. In one case I went totally sixteenth-century on their ass (you should have heard my Elizabethan), which doubtless confused the hell out of them but that was more or less what I wanted, wasn't it? In another case I spoke German to them and acted the part of a confused tourist--which got rid of the immensely tall, menacing beggar who was frustrated that his menaces weren't translating. (He replied in the good old unvarnished Anglo Saxon. )

There are so few opportunities to become a different person, that I treasure these memories, in spite of the scary or annoying cause. It actually gives me sympathy for the people who build harmless personas (NOT curious buddhist, then) on board Ship or elsewhere; I'd do it myself if I were not aware how many people would feel betrayed.

And I doubt I could keep it up for long.
 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
It's true, really, about the "need to think before we speak". The few occasions when I've rashly opened my mouth and "let it flow," the temperature of the room dropped ten degrees as everybody pondered whether to say something in reply or just tactfully ignore the turd I'd dumped. I have to do quality control on my speech if I don't want to experience those moments every freaking day. Whatever magic oil has touched the lips of the extrovert, I was off in a corner when God was handing it out.
 

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Posted by Soror Magna (# 9881) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:
...
You simply don't get it!

The small talk is a lead into conversation - it's the ice breaker, the sociable way of gently finding out if the person wants to chat.....

<blah> <blah> <blah>

(My type of chat )
...

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...I don't think introverts are any more selfish than anyone else - but I do think they are too concerned with what others think of them. 'I only speak when I feel I can contribute' 'I only like meaningful conversations' 'I need to think before I speak' 'I can't bear to be the centre of attention' all speak, to me, of self-consciousness which can look a lot like lack of interest in other people. ...

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Originally posted by Soror Magna:
One day your telephone rings. You answer, and the person on the other end of the line says, "Hey, remember me? We met at the lock on such-and-such. I have a problem. My mum has cancer and my car broke down and I'm having a really hard time getting her to her treatments. Could you possibly help us out?"

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
It's true, really, about the "need to think before we speak". The few occasions when I've rashly opened my mouth and "let it flow," the temperature of the room dropped ten degrees as everybody pondered whether to say something in reply or just tactfully ignore the turd I'd dumped. I have to do quality control on my speech if I don't want to experience those moments every freaking day. Whatever magic oil has touched the lips of the extrovert, I was off in a corner when God was handing it out.

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Soror Magna: All that pleasant chat, all that sociable human interaction is obviously very nice for you, but don't kid yourself or anybody else, it was never a relationship.

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
I have done a lot of improv theatre, and in my experience it involves your real self interacting with the real selves of other actors very much.

Yes you're playing roles, but an interaction on a rather personal level needs to take place to allow your creativity to interact with the other person's creativity.

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Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Watching the English, by the anthropologist Kate Fox explains a lot about English conversational social rules - including small talk. I recommend reading it, to one and all, if you are English or have spent time in England it is somewhat addictive.

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Bought!

(for £2.81)


 

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Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 

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mousethief: I think this is the very point at which improv is different from acting to a script. Especially if you're using "the method." You purposely bury your own self and put on some other personality.

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Originally posted by Ricardus:

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Originally posted by Doublethink.:
You see, I read this and think - what is it about your experience that makes you think you are an introvert ?

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Isn't the issue (and I have the impression that you unlike me know what you are talking about) that most people are extrovert or introvert depending on circumstances, and people get labelled (or label themselves) introverts if the proportion of circumstances in which they behave introvertedly is greater than average?

Consequently Boogie is talking as though social interaction was totally foreign to 'introverts' and they'd love it if they gave it a try - when in reality they probably do give it a try, they just find it more effort and/or less rewarding than she does.

(To be fair, people are doing the same to her, in suggesting that she has no concept or appreciation of 'quiet time', when the likelihood is that she finds quiet time less rewarding, etc.)

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Originally posted by Boogie:
I think conversation matters. Small talk is not about being deep and meaningful and the subject is usually (almost) irrelevant. In a conversation with someone, whether it lasts a moment at the bus stop - or develops into a long lasting relationship, the reason for small talk is to show a positive emotional connection between two human beings - however fleeting.

I think that, while small talk may seem to be about nothing at all, it is really about understanding subtle communication. About responding to people with a sense of connection - in other words, being human.

I think the same about body language.

Of course we are not always in the mood for small talk - but to dismiss it all is to miss the point and to miss out a on great deal imo.

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Originally posted by Doublethink.:

Earlier on the thread, it was asserted that it is always introverts who get scolded about their behaviour, I don't think this is true - a lot of people also spend their lives being told they talk too much, are too loud etc. I suspect the more different you are from average, in either direction, the more grief you get given about it.

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Originally posted by Boogie:
I think conversation matters. Small talk is not about being deep and meaningful

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Wrong Planet periodically has threads explaining small talk. That's how I learned to make peace with it.

Great web site for people who never quite got socialized and therefore find social interactions operate by puzzling rules.

A Wrong Planet item on secrets of small talk
 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
Argh! It's one of those sites where all the quote marks render as question marks
 

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Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I prefer to eat my lunch on my own and don't want to go on works outings to noisy pubs.

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mousethief: LeRoc, you're still in the realm of improv, though.

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My life is always firmly in the realm of improv

Maybe we're misunderstanding each other again. On this thread, various introvs were considering doing theatre, including both scripted theatre and improv. I suggested that if putting on a mask and not showing much of your 'core self' is what you're going for, improv (at least the kind of improv I did) might not be the thing that offers that.

Not that I'd want to stop anyone from doing improv.
 

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Posted by Athrawes (# 9594) on :
 
Boogie, you still seem determined to see introversion as somehow less, or unfriendlier, or inferior to being an extrovert, so I'll try again. Maybe an analogy will help.

Firstly, introversion/extroversion is about where you get your energy. It is a continuum, with a few people at the extreme ends, and most people somewhere in the middle, displaying traits from both.

Extroverts are like a solar panel - they take in their energy from social interactions, and like a solar panel, they simply need to be exposed to gain energy. It doesn't cost them anything, and the supply is limitless, provided they are interacting socially.

Introverts are battery operated. They carry a finite amount of energy with them, and need to conserve that energy, since social interactions use it up. They then need to recharge their battery. Small talk and chat use up energy which most introverts would prefer to save for important interactions, so they don't value it as much as an extrovert, for whom it is a source of energy.

I hope this helps you to understand that we are simply wired differently! Not less or more friendly/social/fun loving, but different.

If you really want to understand, then here is an experiment you can do. Take note of your energy level and mood. Set a timer for one hour and then spend that hour with no social interactions at all. You could read, watch a movie, go for a solitary walk, do some housework; anything you like as long as you are not talking or interacting with others. At the end of the hour, check your energy level and mood again. This may give you an idea of how an introvert feels after giving out energy socially.

[ 18. March 2016, 08:44: Message edited by: Athrawes ]
 

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Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :
 

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Originally posted by Doublethink.:

I am unclear why anyone would especially want to identify with either characteristic, they convey nothing about a person's worth, likability or moral character.

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Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I prefer to eat my lunch on my own and don't want to go on works outings to noisy pubs.

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I would consider a work outing to a noisy pub preferable to a work outing to a quiet pub. A noisy pub curtails the social circle, assuming there is someone you can feel comfortable with (another introvert who is going to be content sampling a selection of real ales) you can get your beers, sit in a corner in companionable silence, and no one will notice. In a quiet pub there will be a larger group around the table talking about the footie match last night, and you will be expected to join in the conversation.

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Originally posted by Athrawes:

Extroverts are like a solar panel - they take in their energy from social interactions, and like a solar panel, they simply need to be exposed to gain energy. It doesn't cost them anything, and the supply is limitless, provided they are interacting socially.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider: I can't abide what I refer to as "cavern taverns" - huge pubs with nowhere to sit and full of people shouting conversation at the tops of the voices to be heard over the music (seldom worthy of the name) which is turned up to max volume to be heard over the shouted conversations. Hell indeed.

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Originally posted by LeRoc:

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Karl: Liberal Backslider: I can't abide what I refer to as "cavern taverns" - huge pubs with nowhere to sit and full of people shouting conversation at the tops of the voices to be heard over the music (seldom worthy of the name) which is turned up to max volume to be heard over the shouted conversations. Hell indeed.

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I'm an extrovert, and I dislike those too.

(Funnily, I think that in such a pub it would be easier for an introvert to go unnoticed.)

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Originally posted by LeRoc:

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Karl: Liberal Backslider: I can't abide what I refer to as "cavern taverns" - huge pubs with nowhere to sit and full of people shouting conversation at the tops of the voices to be heard over the music (seldom worthy of the name) which is turned up to max volume to be heard over the shouted conversations. Hell indeed.

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I'm an extrovert, and I dislike those too.

(Funnily, I think that in such a pub it would be easier for an introvert to go unnoticed.)

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Karl: Liberal Backslider: Doesn't make up for the noise and there being nowhere to sit.

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Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
I find it irritating to be asked if I have plans for the weekend by someone I'll never see again.

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Originally posted by Boogie:

Don't get me wrong, I get on well with my husband and brother (who lives with us three days a week)...

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(aside) ...uh, these are two different individuals, right? Just checking...

 

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Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:

quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:

Don't get me wrong, I get on well with my husband and brother (who lives with us three days a week)...

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(aside) ...uh, these are two different individuals, right? Just checking...

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Originally posted by leo:

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Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
I find it irritating to be asked if I have plans for the weekend by someone I'll never see again.

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I tend to answer that by saying that my life as an intgrovert is interesting enough without having to make 'plans' for the weekend or for any other time. It's the seeming superficiality of extroverts that they need to invent contant distractions for themselves.

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
I only ask "any plans for the weekend?" to colleagues whom I know reasonably well and with whom we'd already talk about off-work stuff normally.

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Originally posted by Golden Key:
Hmm...in my experience, small talk about the weather can mean something or not. "Any plans this weekend?" usually does ask for at least a little information and can feel intrusive, depending on who asks.

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Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

Call me a grouch ... but I like my hair cut with the minimum of conversation (although I don't want to be rude either).

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Originally posted by Helen-Eva:

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Originally posted by Golden Key:
Hmm...in my experience, small talk about the weather can mean something or not. "Any plans this weekend?" usually does ask for at least a little information and can feel intrusive, depending on who asks.

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Yes - the danger is if you say "no" then they'll say "well in that case why don't you come alligator wrestling with us" or if you say "yes" then they'll say "can we come too?"

This makes me look awful doesn't it?

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But you don't have to!

Open questions are the key.

"Nothing exciting, what about you?" is a perfect answer. You are not disclosing anything but you are, at the same time, showing that you are a friendly person.

[ 18. March 2016, 16:38: Message edited by: Boogie ]
 

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Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
And then they say, "Why don't you come alligator wrestling with us? That's exciting!"
 

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Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :
 
Or if you don't want the conversation to contnue, "oh just the usual", without the reciprocal question.
 

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Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :
 

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Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
And then they say, "Why don't you come alligator wrestling with us? That's exciting!"

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Lyda*Rose: And then they say, "Why don't you come alligator wrestling with us? That's exciting!"

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Originally posted by Helen-Eva:
Yes - the danger is if you say "no" then they'll say "well in that case why don't you come alligator wrestling with us" or if you say "yes" then they'll say "can we come too?"

This makes me look awful doesn't it?

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M.: Always best at the hairdressers to ask for magazines and just read.

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Originally posted by LeRoc:

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M.: Always best at the hairdressers to ask for magazines and just read.

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Er … these days if you want to read you don't need to ask for magazines.

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Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
And then they say, "Why don't you come alligator wrestling with us? That's exciting!"

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Originally posted by Boogie:

There is much less small talk around since the advent of smart phones - which is to the detriment of society and social cohesion imo.

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Originally posted by rolyn:

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Originally posted by Boogie:

There is much less small talk around since the advent of smart phones - which is to the detriment of society and social cohesion imo.

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The extrovert has lost his or her audience with the smart phone revolution, and part of their identity as well I suppose as often it is introverts who come out of themselves in the virtual world.

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Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
I only ask "any plans for the weekend?" to colleagues whom I know reasonably well and with whom we'd already talk about off-work stuff normally.

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Which is why I hate going to the barbers' - especially as they often talk "laddish" stuff which really isn't me.

Call me a grouch ... but I like my hair cut with the minimum of conversation (although I don't want to be rude either).

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Originally posted by Boogie:
Small talk has nothing to do with 'having an audience'. It is about finding out about the person you meet - it works like body language. We discover far more about people when we are easy and open with them.

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Small talk isn't an introvert/extrovert issue IMO. It's accepted politeness to speak when spoken to, (or used to be).

I do agree though that centuries old accepted forms of human interaction are changing rapidly with the advent of the smart phone and I-pad. Restaurant servers have reported dinning rooms full of people now eating in complete silence while scrolling and reading their LED attention demanders

It's disturbing, outrageous, and will be the death of us all .... says he using social media to say how terrible and fiendish IT is
 

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Posted by Soror Magna (# 9881) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by rolyn:

quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:

There is much less small talk around since the advent of smart phones - which is to the detriment of society and social cohesion imo.

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The extrovert has lost his or her audience with the smart phone revolution, and part of their identity as well I suppose as often it is introverts who come out of themselves in the virtual world.

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You know, that's really interesting. My pet peeve with the "OMG I can't possibly look away from my phone for more than 2 seconds" people is that they are completely unaware of their surroundings, including people, cars, rapists, mailboxes, parking meters*, muggers, furniture, pets, children, you name it. This leads to behaviour which ranges from rude to downright dangerous. OTOH, texting is less annoying than YELLING BECAUSE YOU'RE ON A CELL PHONE. Anyway, it's obvious they don't give a rat's ass about anyone or anything else when they're playing with their gadgets.

So if those folks really are extroverts, I'd say it tells us just how much they care about other people. If you're in their audience, they love you. If you're not listening to them, you don't even exist. Heck, not only do you not exist, you're antisocial for not wanting to be their audience, and you're undermining the very bedrock of society.


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*Yes, I've seen someone walk into a parking meter while texting. In fact, there was a whole group of people waiting for the bus who watched it happen. Not one among us called out, "Watch out!" or "Stop!" Instead, we all looked at each other, laughed, and shared a precious moment of social cohesion.
 

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Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :
 
Why is txting/smart phone use so clearly more not giving a fuck than reading a book ? Come to that, how you know they are not reading a book ?
 

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Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Why is txting/smart phone use so clearly more not giving a fuck than reading a book ? Come to that, how you know they are not reading a book ?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:

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Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Why is txting/smart phone use so clearly more not giving a fuck than reading a book ? Come to that, how you know they are not reading a book ?

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People don't read books when walking down the street/crossing the road ime.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:
Being invited to an event shouldn't be an issue ...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:
I think conversation matters. Small talk is not about being deep and meaningful and the subject is usually (almost) irrelevant. In a conversation with someone, whether it lasts a moment at the bus stop - or develops into a long lasting relationship, the reason for small talk is to show a positive emotional connection between two human beings - however fleeting.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:
I don't think introverts are any more selfish than anyone else - but I do think they are too concerned with what others think of them. 'I only speak when I feel I can contribute' 'I only like meaningful conversations' 'I need to think before I speak' 'I can't bear to be the centre of attention' all speak, to me, of self-consciousness which can look a lot like lack of interest in other people.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Soror Magna:
My pet peeve with the "OMG I can't possibly look away from my phone for more than 2 seconds" people is that they are completely unaware of their surroundings, including people, cars, rapists, mailboxes, parking meters*, muggers, furniture, pets, children, you name it. This leads to behaviour which ranges from rude to downright dangerous.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:
People don't read books when walking down the street/crossing the road ime.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:
Small talk has nothing to do with 'having an audience'. It is about finding out about the person you meet - it works like body language. We discover far more about people when we are easy and open with them.

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quote:

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Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:
Small talk has nothing to do with 'having an audience'. It is about finding out about the person you meet - it works like body language. We discover far more about people when we are easy and open with them.

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I don't want you or other random strangers to discover things about me. I want you to leave me alone so I can put my energy into conversations I'm interested in having.

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Originally posted by St Deird:

They have jack-all to do with self-consciousness. Shut up about things you clearly don't understand.

---

This thread is my attempt to understand - the two I live with are not disposed towards explaining what's going on in their heads, so - as the Ship seems full of them, I thought I'd ask some introverts.

And I thank you all, I have found your answers fascinating and often bemusing. Unlike Susan Doris who is now an Atheist and was once a Christian, I was never an introvert and can't imagine what it must be like.

I have already explained that the title was to draw people in, sorry if that upset you - but this is Hell!

You are welcome to shut up if you don't want to engage (just as you do all the time, by the sounds of it )
 

---

Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
Being invited to an event shouldn't be an issue ...

---

And we're right back where we started.

"Shouldn't" is not the point. "Is" or "Is not" is more like it.

I naturally panic (internally, with great effort to keep it out of my face!) when someone issues me an invitation that calls for an on-the-spot response, even if the response need be nothing more than "I'll have to check and get back to you." That simply will not occur to me until I take several deep breaths; the first thing that naturally occurs to me is Ohmigod ohmigod I-don't-know-what-to-say why-me what-should-I-do-now, and to be honest, a tinge of resentment because I feel I've been put on the spot. (Yes, I know this is irrational; it just happens to be the way I'm wired.) Several breaths later it occurs to me that I should say "Let me check and get back to you," and then I go home and take between half an hour to two hours to accustom myself to the idea, at which point I finally feel comfortable and can call them back and be truly enthusiastic.

I am willing to bet that you do not routinely experience panic when invited to do something like going out for coffee or seeing a movie.

I do. Does this make me a bad person? If so, I'm SOL, because I've tried to reprogram myself for nearly 50 years and it ain't happening. The most I can do is the kind of workaround described above.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:

---

M.: Always best at the hairdressers to ask for magazines and just read.

---

Er … these days if you want to read you don't need to ask for magazines.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
Boogie--

Re your attempt to understand:

As far as your posts (not necessarily your thoughts and feelings), you seem more interested in insulting people who work differently than you. If you truly wanted to understand, Heaven or AS might've been a better choice.

---

Thank you, Golden Key - you put that a lot more graciously than I could've (Hell notwithstanding).
 

---

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
kittyville--

Thanks. It took some of that dreaded "thinking before speaking(/typing)" thing.

 

---

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Doublethink--you may well be right. But I'm not sure where introversion ends and anxiety disorder begins. Do extroverts have anxiety when faced with (say) a day of silent reflection?

Whatever the truth, it at least illustrates the slow verbal processing I'm dealing with--the inability to respond appropriately until WAY after the right time has passed. Which is why I can't just let the chitchat flow.
 

---

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:
I'd rather be in a quiet pub than a noisy one, if I'm going with people. That way you can actually talk to them in a relaxed atmosphere instead of having to shout over other conversations and over-loud music.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Do extroverts have anxiety when faced with (say) a day of silent reflection?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:

As far as your posts (not necessarily your thoughts and feelings), you seem more interested in insulting people who work differently than you. If you truly wanted to understand, Heaven or AS might've been a better choice.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:

When I'm walking the dogs it's very rare that people who are passing don't have a quick word. Is this a cultural North of England thing?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
When I'm walking (anywhere) I greet people I pass - whether it's walking to church or climbing a mountain. I say "Good Morning" or whatever, they say "Good Morning" or whatever, nobody breaks step.

I would find it odd in the extreme if some random stranger going for a walk wanted to stop for a chat.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
When I'm walking the dogs it's very rare that people who are passing don't have a quick word. Is this a cultural North of England thing?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doublethink.:

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
I find it irritating to be asked if I have plans for the weekend by someone I'll never see again.

---

I tend to answer that by saying that my life as an intgrovert is interesting enough without having to make 'plans' for the weekend or for any other time. It's the seeming superficiality of extroverts that they need to invent contant distractions for themselves.

---

This seems to misunderstand the purpose of the question, most often someone asking this is not seeking information, anymore than someone asking what you think about this morning's weather is at all interested in the weather.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
There is also something about dogs and their owners: dogs have, as far as I can tell, little compunction in going up to anyone and everyone and engaging with them fully, and my observation and Boogie's description makes me think that a fair selection of their owners can be similar.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
But how does one respond to this question without giving out information?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
But how does one respond to this question without giving out information?

---

"Got plans for the weekend?"

"Nah, not really/having a good rest/yes, thanks/just the usual/dunno yet/depends on the weather."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
You know, it really hadn't ever occurred to me that people asking what I was doing for the weekend didn't actually want to know, so I hadn't thought of a good reply that didn't seem rude; effectively saying "none of your business."

But apparently that's what people actually want. I will never understand you humans.

---

You've got it!

Just as 'How are you?' does not require any information about your health. It's about making contact, showing a friendly face, being a social being. 'Fine thank you' is the usual answer. Having all sorts of health issues I tend to answer 'Still kicking thanks'.

This often raises a smile so I follow it up with 'Just don't ask me who!'
 

---

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:
Dogs are uninhibited. Their owners have to be at least a little bit to some extent; when you have an animal companion that regularly bounds across spaces to enthusiastically greet completely unfamiliar people, fights other dogs and craps anywhere at short notice, you can't really be a shrinking violet yourself.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
You know, it really hadn't ever occurred to me that people asking what I was doing for the weekend didn't actually want to know

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
But how does one respond to this question without giving out information?

---

"Got plans for the weekend?"

"Nah, not really/having a good rest/yes, thanks/just the usual/dunno yet/depends on the weather."

---

You know, it really hadn't ever occurred to me that people asking what I was doing for the weekend didn't actually want to know, so I hadn't thought of a good reply that didn't seem rude; effectively saying "none of your business."

But apparently that's what people actually want. I will never understand you humans.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
But how does one respond to this question without giving out information?

---

"Got plans for the weekend?"

"Nah, not really/having a good rest/yes, thanks/just the usual/dunno yet/depends on the weather."

---

You know, it really hadn't ever occurred to me that people asking what I was doing for the weekend didn't actually want to know, so I hadn't thought of a good reply that didn't seem rude; effectively saying "none of your business."

But apparently that's what people actually want. I will never understand you humans.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
You know, it really hadn't ever occurred to me that people asking what I was doing for the weekend didn't actually want to know, so I hadn't thought of a good reply that didn't seem rude; effectively saying "none of your business."

But apparently that's what people actually want. I will never understand you humans.

---

You've got it!

Just as 'How are you?' does not require any information about your health. It's about making contact, showing a friendly face, being a social being. 'Fine thank you' is the usual answer. Having all sorts of health issues I tend to answer 'Still kicking thanks'.

This often raises a smile so I follow it up with 'Just don't ask me who!'

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
I live with introverts and was frustrated with them at the time - so I wanted to vent and get some insight.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
I live with introverts and was frustrated with them at the time - so I wanted to vent and get some insight.

---

Yet you've contradicted anybody who has bothered to try to give you insight. Doesn't seem like you wanted insight at all, only to be ugly to people different than you, probably to spite your frustrating relatives.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doublethink.:
I am abnormally close to you for some reason for what feels like a prolonged period of time (slow moving lift, haircut, prostate exam etc) and wish to signal I am not hostile and distract us both from this embarrassing proximity with a neutral topic.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:

An lot of annoyance has been expressed about extroverts and the way we behave. But I see being extrovert simply as enjoying good company/animated, quick fire discussion in groups/chat/laughs.

---

quote:

---

Ricardus: If the purpose of small talk is to ease interpersonal relations, and lots of people say they find small talk difficult, isn't the conclusion that small talk isn't very effective at its aim?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:

---

Ricardus: If the purpose of small talk is to ease interpersonal relations, and lots of people say they find small talk difficult, isn't the conclusion that small talk isn't very effective at its aim?

---

Undoubtedly. But it's what evolution and a bit of conditioning have given us.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
I do thank you all for showing me what it feels like on the other side of things.

I would like to know more 'tho.

An lot of annoyance has been expressed about extroverts and the way we behave. But I see being extrovert simply as enjoying good company/animated, quick fire discussion in groups/chat/laughs.

We are not (generically) rude or attention seeking any more than introverts are.

Why the dislike?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ricardus:
If the purpose of small talk is to ease interpersonal relations, and lots of people say they find small talk difficult, isn't the conclusion that small talk isn't very effective at its aim?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doublethink.:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ricardus:
If the purpose of small talk is to ease interpersonal relations, and lots of people say they find small talk difficult, isn't the conclusion that small talk isn't very effective at its aim?

---

The fact it is a social norm suggests that a significant majority of people find it works.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
Leorning Cnint, the first thing that comes into my head is the best of me, it's how I speak, how I think, how I am.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
Leorning Cnint, the first thing that comes into my head is the best of me, it's how I speak, how I think, how I am.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:

In today's Washington Post: "Why smart people are better off with fewer friends."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
Leorning Cnint, the first thing that comes into my head is the best of me, it's how I speak, how I think, how I am.

---

Seriously? You would never come up with something better to say if you thought about it for a minute?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:


In today's Washington Post: "Why smart people are better off with fewer friends."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Macrina:
I love a good conversation about God, the Universe, Politics, anything big I can get my teeth into but I had to work at the social chit chat and realise that I wouldn't get many conversations I liked if I couldn't engage a person first.

---

quote:

---

talking is a positive act because it is closely connected with thinking. Language and its verbal expression in talking can create, change, and signify thinking, and hence, one can generally equate talking and thinking.

---

quote:

---

the Western assumption about near equivalence of talking and thinking is still very pervasive and fundamental to the study of the mind, despite the abundant research to show that the positive meaning of talking is culturally specific rather than universal

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:
In today's Washington Post: "Why smart people are better off with fewer friends."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:

In today's Washington Post: "Why smart people are better off with fewer friends."

---

Controversial researchers with questionable parameters.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
Leorning Cnint, the first thing that comes into my head is the best of me, it's how I speak, how I think, how I am.

---

Seriously? You would never come up with something better to say if you thought about it for a minute?

---

As I said upthread, I get my best ideas in conversation.

It's great making plans and the plans unfold and change as you talk them through. My latest art project is a sculpture at a school. The art teacher and I were very much on the same wavelength - we talked it through and ideas flowed, changing and growing as we built on each other's input.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
I do thank you all for showing me what it feels like on the other side of things.

I would like to know more 'tho.

An lot of annoyance has been expressed about extroverts and the way we behave. But I see being extrovert simply as enjoying good company/animated, quick fire discussion in groups/chat/laughs.

We are not (generically) rude or attention seeking any more than introverts are.

Why the dislike?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
As I said upthread, I get my best ideas in conversation.

It's great making plans and the plans unfold and change as you talk them through.

---

quote:

---

As I said upthread, I get my best ideas in conversation.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
... starts to sound a bit like "I'm a parasite who wants to leech off you."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jemima the 9th:
Ah. It appears I'm an obnoxious introvert. Oh well.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
You know, it really hadn't ever occurred to me that people asking what I was doing for the weekend didn't actually want to know, so I hadn't thought of a good reply that didn't seem rude; effectively saying "none of your business."

---

Have you heard of Roman Jakobson's theory of Functions of Language?
(There's wikipedia article that I can't link to because of an apostrophe; it isn't the most thorough exposition there could be.)

[ 23. March 2016, 07:55: Message edited by: Dafyd ]
 

---

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
Here you go.

Tiny Url is your friend when links won't link
 

---

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Dafyd--

You might try putting that errant link into TinyURL, which will give you an alias link that works.
 

---

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Sorry for x-post.
 

---

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :
 
The UBB practice thread is ---> that way.
 

---

Posted by Soror Magna (# 9881) on :
 
Unfortunately for Boogie, small talk is probably going to be less and less common. Not because of a minority of introverts, but because of paranoid overprotective parents. I was raised to respond politely to strangers, but not to accept gifts or fall for any "your mom asked me to pick you up" shit. Subsequent generations of children were told to never speak to strangers at all and were driven everywhere so they never had to interact with strangers on the bus or subway. The latest generation shares nude pictures with their friends but still won't talk to strangers. Luckily, they have an app on their phone to tell them if there's anybody in the area that might want to have sex with them, because obviously you can't talk to a stranger to find out if they'd like to have sex with you ...
 

---

Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
I would like to know more 'tho.

---

I will say how it is for me. I'm an introvert married to an extrovert, so I suspect there are similar issues in our house to the ones in yours.

Whether I have simply learned extrovert behaviour, or am a high-functioning introvert, or what, I relate to much of what you say. I like and am interested in people. I like small talk and flatter myself that I'm quite good at it. I went to the hairdresser this week and was looking forward to hearing about her holiday. If the cashier at the checkout wants to hear about my plans for the weekend I'll tell them and ask about theirs. I will ask what time they finish their shift and whether they had an early start. We are all muddling through this life somehow, God help us, and need those touches of humanity along the way.

I too go to church mainly to see my friends. For a while, like you, I felt I didn't have much faith left. Now my faith looks so different to that of the con-evo congregation I have to change the way I talk and pray when I'm among them but I do it because they are people I love and because it's important for Mr Nen and me to be worshipping somewhere together.

I love being with people and doing all this, but it drains me and as an introvert it seems so much harder for me to get what I need to recharge my batteries. I really do need time on my own. Recently the smallest bedroom in our house became my study. I love it. It is my space and I spend as much time as I can there. Most of that time the door is open - ie, I'm fine to entertain visitors. On the occasions when the door is shut of course I expect to be interrupted if the house is on fire or someone is bleeding or my long lost cousin I haven't spoken to for 20 years is on the phone. But it absolutely is not ok just to walk in on me and it does not make it ok to knock first and preface what you're going to say with "Just a quick question." At times I have to lock myself in the loo just to get the uninterrupted solitude I need. What introvert has not done that on at least one occasion?

And in conversation, I am all for chit-chat, banter, light repartee, in their place. But if we are discussing things I'm thinking about, hopes and plans I have, things I feel strongly about, I am going to give thoughtful, measured responses and I mean them. Most of the extroverts in my life process things through their mouths and it drives me nuts. I think I have to invest emotionally in those things because they must mean them. Then, further down the road, they say something like, "Oh, the vast majority of things I talk about are just ideas I'm playing with." Don't do that to me! It's exhausting!

FFS.


 

---

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jemima the 9th:
Ah. It appears I'm an obnoxious introvert. Oh well.

---

Don't feel bad. All the best people are.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nenya:
But if we are discussing things I'm thinking about, hopes and plans I have, things I feel strongly about, I am going to give thoughtful, measured responses and I mean them. Most of the extroverts in my life process things through their mouths and it drives me nuts.

---

After 40 years I don't even try to talk things through with my husband. I process things verbally by chatting to the dogs.

If I ask him anything I know the answer will be slow coming with no 'real' discussion. He's like you in a group, he's not silent and is socially perfectly competent. It's at home when he's relaxing that silence falls.

Hopes and plans and things you feel strongly about don't have to be set in stone either, you know - they can change and grow as you talk them through. He seems to have the idea that once he's said it he's committed to it. I once said "shall we have a fountain in the garden?" it was an idea a thought a possibility - I didn't especially want a fountain in the garden, I just very much wanted a nicer garden and to chat about how we go about it. He still mentions it as if I'm hankering after one! No - it was a passing thought! I just hope one doesn't turn up with one day as a surprise
 

---

Posted by Soror Magna (# 9881) on :
 
"OMG you actually thought I meant what I was saying?"


 

---

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Soror Magna:
"OMG you actually thought I meant what I was saying?"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:

He seems to have the idea that once he's said it he's committed to it.

---

quote:

---

I just very much wanted a nicer garden and to chat about how we go about it.

---

Were I to be having such a discussion, I would open with something like "I'd like to do up the garden - can we talk about it?" or "I'd like the garden to look nicer: how much do you care about it?" or something.

(The latter is an important question - IMO, there's a big difference between a conversation when we're both trying to agree on something we want to do together, and a conversation when I'm helping you refine your thoughts about what you want, but I don't actually care about the outcome.)

If I then wanted to suggest a fountain more as a means of sparking discussion than a definitive request for a urinating cherub, I would hang the suggestion with several caveats along the lines of "I'm not sure I'm really suggesting this."

I suspect you'd find this irritating
 

---

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

If I then wanted to suggest a fountain more as a means of sparking discussion than a definitive request for a urinating cherub, I would hang the suggestion with several caveats along the lines of "I'm not sure I'm really suggesting this."

I suspect you'd find this irritating

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
If I am close to someone I start conversations and I don't feel the need to consider what words to use - that's hard work and saved for work situations.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
If I am close to someone I start conversations and I don't feel the need to consider what words to use - that's hard work and saved for work situations.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mdijon:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
If I am close to someone I start conversations and I don't feel the need to consider what words to use - that's hard work and saved for work situations.

---

Sounds bloody selfish to me.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
If I am close to someone I start conversations and I don't feel the need to consider what words to use - that's hard work and saved for work situations.

---

Oh good grief. In other words, you just open your mouth and out it comes without any thought or consideration for your hearers?

---

The consideration for others comes naturally - but, yes - my words are my thoughts. (Otherwise I think in pictures)

Is that so terrible?
 

---

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
Not at all - my words are not unkind or selfish!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
Not at all - my words are not unkind or selfish!

---

Then you must be putting some kind of thought or filter on them.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
Because it's a suggestion, an idea, a thought. What I'd like is a conversation about it - to chew over ideas, thoughts.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
If I am close to someone I start conversations and I don't feel the need to consider what words to use - that's hard work and saved for work situations.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mdijon:
Sounds bloody selfish to me.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
Not at all - my words are not unkind or selfish!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
Because it's a suggestion, an idea, a thought. What I'd like is a conversation about it - to chew over ideas, thoughts.

---

But why not just get straight to the point and ask "Do you have any ideas how we could make the garden nicer" or "What would you like for dinner" instead of coming out with a random jumping-off point that's actually in practice irrelevant?

---

My middle name is 'random'
 

---

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by mdijon:

But the point is if you want to blurt out anything without a filter you place a burden on the listener that would be more effectively done in your head rather than theirs.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mdijon:

Are you going to think about your reply now? If not, why should I bother to respond?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Hell. Target. Back.

---

I know
 

---

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:

---

Originally posted by mdijon:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
If I am close to someone I start conversations and I don't feel the need to consider what words to use - that's hard work and saved for work situations.

---

Sounds bloody selfish to me.

---

Not at all - my words are not unkind or selfish!

---

How do you know they're not unkind or selfish, until you've heard yourself say them?!
 

---

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
May I try something? I've been thinking about this thread a bit, from the angle of risk-taking. Bear with me for a moment.

Suppose I meet someone at some work-related event, and I meet him again a couple of months later. The first time we chatted a bit, and I remember that he talked rather enthusiastically about his children. Or rather, I'm 90% certain that I remember him talking about his children. My memory about this kind of things isn't always perfect.

So, after a couple of months I meet him again. Asking him "how are your children?" might be nice. I like to show interest in people, and this could help to reinforce some kind of inter-human connection. But I'm only 90% sure that he talked about his children last time.

If I'm allowed to speculate a bit, what I understand from this thread is that introvert people would have a risk-averse behaviour here. "What if I misremembered and he doesn't have children? Or what if he has children but something bad happened with them in the intervening months? His feelings might be hurt. Better not bring this up."

Whereas as an extrovert, I would think "I may have misremembered him talking about his children, but it's worth the risk" (this is not a very conscious process).

This doesn't mean that I'm not aware of his feelings. Yes, I realise very well that if I'm wrong, his feelings may be hurt. I can empathise with that. But I'm willing to take this 90% chance here.

On a certain level you might say that this is selfish of me, and you may be right. After all, by taking this risk I'm not only putting potential embarrassment for myself at stake, but also the other person's feelings.

But I feel that this risk is worthwhile, because a positive result could be beneficial to both of us. If I'd let myself caught up in this long train of thought ("what if I misremembered etc."), it might very well lead to an unnatural, stunted conversation. A conversation that flows more naturally has advantages for both of us. So I go for it.

And if I may speculate a bit more, maybe it's these trains of thought that cost introverts so much energy.
 

---

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
Do you want to know how his children are? That's the only question that really goes through my mind. I might go as far as "would he like me to ask about his children", but it's a pointless train of thought because I have no way of knowing the answer to that before I do it anyway.
 

---

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 

quote:

---

Karl: Liberal Backslider: Do you want to know how his children are?

---

quote:

---

Karl: Liberal Backslider: I might go as far as "would he like me to ask about his children", but it's a pointless train of thought because I have no way of knowing the answer to that before I do it anyway.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
Patronising.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:

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Originally posted by mdijon:

But the point is if you want to blurt out anything without a filter you place a burden on the listener that would be more effectively done in your head rather than theirs.

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You haven't been listening to what I said.

I think in pictures - I don't 'blurt out'. My words are my thoughts.

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Originally posted by AmyBo:
Sometimes I'm staring at your lips wondering what it would look like for a slug to come out.

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Originally posted by Boogie:

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Originally posted by Ariel:
But why not just get straight to the point and ask "Do you have any ideas how we could make the garden nicer" or "What would you like for dinner" instead of coming out with a random jumping-off point that's actually in practice irrelevant?

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My middle name is 'random'

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Originally posted by Boogie:
I think in pictures - I don't 'blurt out'. My words are my thoughts.

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Originally posted by Boogie:
Because it's a suggestion, an idea, a thought. What I'd like is a conversation about it - to chew over ideas, thoughts.

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Originally posted by Boogie:

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Originally posted by Nenya:
But if we are discussing things I'm thinking about, hopes and plans I have, things I feel strongly about, I am going to give thoughtful, measured responses and I mean them. Most of the extroverts in my life process things through their mouths and it drives me nuts.

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After 40 years I don't even try to talk things through with my husband. I process things verbally by chatting to the dogs.

If I ask him anything I know the answer will be slow coming with no 'real' discussion. He's like you in a group, he's not silent and is socially perfectly competent. It's at home when he's relaxing that silence falls.

Hopes and plans and things you feel strongly about don't have to be set in stone either, you know - they can change and grow as you talk them through. He seems to have the idea that once he's said it he's committed to it. I once said "shall we have a fountain in the garden?" it was an idea a thought a possibility - I didn't especially want a fountain in the garden, I just very much wanted a nicer garden and to chat about how we go about it. He still mentions it as if I'm hankering after one! No - it was a passing thought! I just hope one doesn't turn up with one day as a surprise

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It seems that you're using this approach to get your own way which seems a very passive aggressive form of behaviour to me.
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Boogie--

There's nothing at all wrong with thinking in pictures. But if you go straight from that to translating those pictures *aloud*, without an intermediate step, ISTM there's a strong chance that you'll accidentally say something in a less than wise way, hurt someone, get yourself into trouble. And not even realize you've done it.

I wonder if maybe you could sometimes do a quick proofreading in your mind, before you speak? Or, in a situation like the garden discussion, maybe say "Let's brainstorm about what we might do differently with the garden".

I realize this would probably be very hard for you, but you might be saving yourself trouble in the long run.
 

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Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on :
 
On the way you start conversations and ask questions, I had an almost identical situation with a former housemate.

Housemate: Do you think we should get a coffee table?
Me: No. I don’t like them. They take up space and get in the way.

Housemate goes away all pissed off. Turns out that she was asking me the question because she had already decided she wanted a coffee table and I was now in the way of her coffee table acquisition plans. Trouble is that I was naïve and straightforward enough to answer the question she actually asked, not the question she apparently meant. I really don’t like coffee tables. I told her so with no malice aforethought whatsoever.

I was pretty unrepentant. FWIW I don’t think introversion/ extroversion had much to do with it. I think it’s more about communication styles. She asked a misleading question and unfortunately for her, she got an honest answer. I claim no responsibility for hurting her feelings.

Also I too have an extremely visual mind/memory. However, being an extreme introvert, I take the time think my images through and try to come up with ways of putting them into intelligible words before talking about them to other people
 

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Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 

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la vie en rouge: She asked a misleading question

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Originally posted by Boogie:
If I ask him anything I know the answer will be slow coming with no 'real' discussion. He's like you in a group, he's not silent and is socially perfectly competent. It's at home when he's relaxing that silence falls.

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So he is doing exactly the same as you with thinking with words - "When relaxing at home it's nice to switch that need off for a while." He doesn't want to come out with quickfire responses that he hasn't had time to think about properly. That exhausts him.

We had an almost identical situation some years back. Mr Nen suggested a water feature in the garden. I didn't want one, said so, and gave my reasons. In my book, end of discussion. But he kept on about it - admiring water features in other people's gardens, heading for the hard landscaping areas of garden centres..."How many times do I have to say I don't want a b****y water feature? It was only gradually I realised he wanted to explore ideas for making changes to the garden. Now we have made changes to our garden and it looks nice. But I still worry that he secretly hankers for a water feature because he made such a thing about it at the time.

In situations like that I stop engaging with the conversation. I feel I have not been heard or understood. So I stop talking and get accused of putting barriers up or shutting down.

Introverts can have what you describe as 'real' discussions fine, thank you very much, as long as we understand the subject in question and the rules of engagement. If you want to talk about ideas for making the garden nicer, and want us to throw in ideas without thinking about them, say so and we'll do our best. We may then need to lie down in a darkened room for a while on our own.

Maybe the answer for me and Mr Nen is to get a dog.

In LeRoc's scenario I'd say, "Weren't you telling me some interesting things about your children last time we met?" If the answer is yes, that's the conversation sorted for the rest of the evening. If not, all I've done is make myself look a bit forgetful with the implied compliment to them of "You're such an interesting person, it must have been you I was talking to."
 

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 

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Originally posted by Nenya:
Maybe the answer for me and Mr Nen is to get a dog.

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"Shall we get a dog?"

 

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Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on :
 

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Originally posted by Ariel:

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Originally posted by Nenya:
Maybe the answer for me and Mr Nen is to get a dog.

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"Shall we get a dog?"

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No.
 

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Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 

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la vie en rouge: ISTM a much better way of starting would have been, “I would like to get a coffee table. How would you feel about that?”

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Alan Cresswell: They are different sorts of questions.

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
You're being way too demanding here (and so is Alan).

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Alan Cresswell: It's Hell. I'll be as demanding as I like.

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Alan Cresswell: And, maybe it's a bit much to expect other people to make the effort to decide whether or not an apparently straight forward question is actually about something else entirely.

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
Of course. But demanding that people take this kind of effort in formulating their questions outside of Hell (which is where la vie en rose's conversation with her housemate happened) may be a bit too much.

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Alan Cresswell: And, maybe it's a bit much to expect other people to make the effort to decide whether or not an apparently straight forward question is actually about something else entirely.

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Leorning Cniht: You're going to take up my time and effort with your conversation. It seems to me that asking you to phrase your opening gambit in a way that isn't misleading is a fairly basic part of common courtesy.

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
... There's nothing misleading about asking "Do you think we should buy X?"...

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Originally posted by LeRoc:

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Karl: Liberal Backslider: Do you want to know how his children are?

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Yes. I didn't express this very clearly, but when I ask such a question, my interest is genuine.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider: I might go as far as "would he like me to ask about his children", but it's a pointless train of thought because I have no way of knowing the answer to that before I do it anyway.

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Okay. My speculation was that introverts might go into this train of thought anyway, even if it may be pointless (this is not an accusation; our thought processes aren't always rational). But what you're telling me is that I'm wrong here.

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
For what it's worth, and I've no idea if this has anything to do with extro/introversion, but I think almost exclusively in words. Usually lots of them at once. There may be mental illustrations, but they're just that - illustrations. I can't imagine not thinking words.

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Originally posted by Boogie:
After 40 years I don't even try to talk things through with my husband. I process things verbally by chatting to the dogs.

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Originally posted by Boogie:
If I ask him anything I know the answer will be slow coming with no 'real' discussion. He's like you in a group, he's not silent and is socially perfectly competent. It's at home when he's relaxing that silence falls.

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Originally posted by Boogie:
Hopes and plans and things you feel strongly about don't have to be set in stone either, you know - they can change and grow as you talk them through.

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Originally posted by Boogie:
He seems to have the idea that once he's said it he's committed to it.

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Soror Magna: If you've already decided you want X and you don't really care about their opinion

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Soror Magna: yeah, it is.

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Soror Magna: People who ask "Do you ..." instead of having the guts to say "I want ... "

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Soror Magna: really should remember that one possible answer is, "No, I don't."

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Karl: Liberal Backslider: I can see how talking without thinking would be less so

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Leorning Cniht: I don't speak any foreign languages well enough to think in them, although I'm told that those that do think differently in different languages.

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Originally posted by RuthW:
Brava, AmyBo!

And this --

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Originally posted by AmyBo:
Sometimes I'm staring at your lips wondering what it would look like for a slug to come out.

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-- I laughed hard enough to startle the cats.

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Lamb Chopped: If your husband shows up with a fountain for your birthday, I hope you thank him nicely and rave over it.

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I think the roommate who wanted the coffee table didn't misphrase anything, didn't mislead anyone, or any of that stuff. It wasn't miscommunication at all. In fact, it was beautifully clear communication.

The problem was that she didn't like the answer she got, and was childish enough to get pissy about it.

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If your husband shows up with a fountain for your birthday, I hope you thank him nicely and rave over it.

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
Fuck, I agree with Lamb Chopped. (I'm getting a bit fed up with people saying "Lamb Chopped is right again, as usual" on the Ship all the time.)

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Lamb Chopped is fucking WRONG again, as usual.

 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 

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Originally posted by mousethief:

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I think the roommate who wanted the coffee table didn't misphrase anything, didn't mislead anyone, or any of that stuff. It wasn't miscommunication at all. In fact, it was beautifully clear communication.

The problem was that she didn't like the answer she got, and was childish enough to get pissy about it.

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Of course if she had already purchased a table, and was trying to be coy about that fact with her question, that's another matter altogether.

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Originally posted by mousethief:

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
If your husband shows up with a fountain for your birthday, I hope you thank him nicely and rave over it.

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If you as a couple are in the habit of planning garden improvements as a team, and he shows up with a fountain without knowing beforehand whether or not you'd like a fountain in the garden, then you need to question your taste in husbands.

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Lamb Chopped: Lamb Chopped is fucking WRONG again, as usual.

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(I'm not really following the garden fountain discussion. That's mostly because I can't think of it without a lot of sexual innuendo.)
 

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Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

If your husband shows up with a fountain for your birthday, I hope you thank him nicely and rave over it.

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I would

But it won't happen, he doesn't do surprises - he's far too measured for that.
 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 

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Originally posted by LeRoc:

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Lamb Chopped: Lamb Chopped is fucking WRONG again, as usual.

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(I'm not really following the garden fountain discussion. That's mostly because I can't think of it without a lot of sexual innuendo.)

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Drat you. You led me right into that one, didn't you?

[ 25. March 2016, 18:39: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
 

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Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on :
 

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
Or have a fight over it, and then make up in that special way that couples have.

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Originally posted by Nenya:

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
Or have a fight over it, and then make up in that special way that couples have.

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By putting the kettle on and making a nice cup of tea.

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So that's what they call it these days


It seems to me that some people on this thread are objecting to the fact that when we're communicating, there's always a subtext below the face-value of our words, and if we'd just make this subtext explicit, communication would be easier. I have to tell you that this subtext will always be there. And most likely, it will be more important than the 'literal' meaning that our words convey. This is what Communication Theory tells us.

"Do you think we should buy X?" almost never means: I'm absolutely neutral about buying X and now I'm conducting a completely independent poll about whether you think we should buy it.


(The Old Man and the Sea contains the sentence "Do you think we should buy a terminal of the lottery with an eighty-five?" Read the book and try to see if the Old Man is absolutely neutral about buying it.)
 

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Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Lamb Chopped is fucking WRONG again, as usual.

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

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Originally posted by mousethief:

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I think the roommate who wanted the coffee table didn't misphrase anything, didn't mislead anyone, or any of that stuff. It wasn't miscommunication at all. In fact, it was beautifully clear communication.

The problem was that she didn't like the answer she got, and was childish enough to get pissy about it.

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Of course if she had already purchased a table, and was trying to be coy about that fact with her question, that's another matter altogether.

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I don't understand. To my mind, that would be even worse, and not another matter altogether.

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Clarifying: that remark was to Boogie, and it meant basically "By your wildly misleading question quoted upthread, you have given him legitimate reason to think you have a secret hankering for fountains, and must abide the consequences, hopefully graciously."

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
(The Old Man and the Sea contains the sentence "Do you think we should buy a terminal of the lottery with an eighty-five?"

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Ariel: I'm guessing that what he's actually saying is "Should we get a lottery ticket that contains the numbers 85" but if so it's a rather strange way of phrasing it.

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
If only those @%&!# extroverts would say exactly what they meant!

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And say it using their "indoors voice"--i.e., at a controlled, moderate volume.

 

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Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on :
 

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Originally posted by Golden Key:

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
If only those @%&!# extroverts would say exactly what they meant!

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And say it using their "indoors voice"--i.e., at a controlled, moderate volume.

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Originally posted by Golden Key:
Some extroverts. Makes people fervently wish that the speaker would go far away.

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