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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Breast Ironing, etc.
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
For those who don't know, breast ironing is a practice in which the breasts of young girls are pounded flat using hot stones and hammers. This is considered a wise thing to do to girls to protect them from rape. In the Camaroon culture it's commonly done by female relatives.
I just heard of this and I'm so disgusted and so angry. Just because this is common in a minority culture the reports seem to be slightly sympathetic to the mothers who do this to their daughters, as though the slightest bit of research or even anecdotal evidence wouldn't demonstrated that breast plumpness has very little to do with incidents of rape.
This sort of thing is comparable to foot binding to make women more attractive and also perpetuated by mothers, but that was the 19th century and, today, no matter how uneducated and isolated your culture is, wouldn't you think a mother would need a really strong reason to visit this amount of pain on her daughter. Wouldn't she look for alternative methods to protect her from rape?
But none of this is as maddening and inexplicable to me as the practice of opening the skin of the chest to insert plastic bags of fluid in order to make oneself more attractive to men. Done voluntarily by western women.
Why are we complicit in practices of self-mutilation? Why are we pandering to the sexual fetishes of men? Men who themselves have been taught to value unnatural secondary sexual characteristics to a damaging degree? Why are there women who have so bought into this that they delay cancer surgery because they think it's their breasts that make them women? When will we stand up and say: These are our bodies! Whether they are fat or thin or our breasts are small or large, they are ours and we will not try to change them to please anyone else.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breast_ironing depressing, but somehow unsurprising.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
If there is to be bodily mutilation to try and prevent rape it would seem more reasonable to apply the hot iron to the rapists. And, I'm not talking about flattening their nipples either.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
That is something I had never heard of before. It is extremely sad to know there is so very, very little one can do to help prevent such stupid cruelty.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
I deplore cultures that do shit to females.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
It is of no comfort to anybody, but Darwin wins on this one. Damage the mammary glands badly enough, and the grown woman will not be able to nurse an infant. She will die without descendants, and thus the non-survival-oriented genes of her mother or grandmother, the real perps, will die out.
Darwin always wins. It's always ugly and depressing, but it will happen.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
sigh.
Mutilation of beautiful bodies* is a disgrace and an offence to God.
*That is all bodies. They are all beautiful.
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Blog
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take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Pine Marten
Shipmate
# 11068
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
If there is to be bodily mutilation to try and prevent rape it would seem more reasonable to apply the hot iron to the rapists. And, I'm not talking about flattening their nipples either.
Indeed. I have heard of breast ironing before, and there is in fact an article in today's Times. I am beyond angry and depressed about this and similar mutilation like female cutting, although there is some progress in eradicating this in some areas.
Actually in the Times' book reviews section there is one about a new biography of Katherine Howard, Henry VIII's fifth wife. Usually seen as promiscuous, this new book sees her rather as a victim of child abuse, which started when she was about 11. That depressed me too. It seems that women have always been victims of male power.
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Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde
Posts: 1731 | From: Isle of Albion | Registered: Feb 2006
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
It is of no comfort to anybody, but Darwin wins on this one. Damage the mammary glands badly enough, and the grown woman will not be able to nurse an infant. She will die without descendants, and thus the non-survival-oriented genes of her mother or grandmother, the real perps, will die out.
Darwin always wins. It's always ugly and depressing, but it will happen.
I might be reading you wrong, but are you saying that because you think, as per Darwin's theories, the women who practice this abuse will eventually cease to reproduce, the abuse itself will therefore die out?
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Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
It is of no comfort to anybody, but Darwin wins on this one. Damage the mammary glands badly enough, and the grown woman will not be able to nurse an infant. She will die without descendants, and thus the non-survival-oriented genes of her mother or grandmother, the real perps, will die out.
Darwin always wins. It's always ugly and depressing, but it will happen.
I might be reading you wrong, but are you saying that because you think, as per Darwin's theories, the women who practice this abuse will eventually cease to reproduce, the abuse itself will therefore die out?
Well, I don't think you have to be a full-blown sociobiolgist to think that certain practices only survive because they're being handed down intergenerationally. In other words, there aren't many people who, in the absence of being taught the "virtues" of breast-ironing by their parents, will adopt the practice.
As a comparison, imagine a relgion that has ceased to win any external converts, and only survives because it's adherents reproduce. If they all suddenly decided to take a vow of life-long celibacy, that religion would be totally extinct within a century, at most.
One thing I'm somewhat dubious about, however...
quote:
Damage the mammary glands badly enough, and the grown woman will not be able to nurse an infant. She will die without descendants
I am hardly an expert on motherhood or reproduction, but I'm pretty sure it is possible for a baby to survive without being breast-fed by its mother. I would assume that, if this custom really does do such damage to the breasts, that the practitioners have found other ways of feeding their babies.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
It is of no comfort to anybody, but Darwin wins on this one. Damage the mammary glands badly enough, and the grown woman will not be able to nurse an infant. She will die without descendants, and thus the non-survival-oriented genes of her mother or grandmother, the real perps, will die out.
Darwin always wins. It's always ugly and depressing, but it will happen.
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
I might be reading you wrong, but are you saying that because you think, as per Darwin's theories, the women who practice this abuse will eventually cease to reproduce, the abuse itself will therefore die out?
It seems a rather insensitive angle to focus on. And just plain wrong in any case I think. Human beings don't have specific behaviours that map on to genes like that. These are complex traits which are transmitted by culture as much as anything genetic.
On the behaviour itself if it wasn't so well documented I would struggle to believe it was possible. But as the OP says it seems similar to foot-binding and many other oppressive and mutilating practices which have been targeted on girls.
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ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
There are a whole suite of things: behaviors, habits, traditions -- that either improve, or depress, your chances of grandchildren. Most of us, without having to think about it, work to improve the chances.
A very minor example of the most innocuous: my father acquired a box of Godiva chocolates. When we visited he produced them, and automatically began doling them out to the grandchildren. It could be argued that all of us adults were fighting the Battle of the Bulge, and the last thing we needed was chocolate. But nobody reasoned at this level; we just did it.
I have no idea how such a dingbat idea as breast ironing ever arose. But it is no great prophecy, to say that it cannot end well. It doesn't matter how it is transmitted or why. It's doomed.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
But none of this is as maddening and inexplicable to me as the practice of opening the skin of the chest to insert plastic bags of fluid in order to make oneself more attractive to men. Done voluntarily by western women.
I am usually told on this subject that some women who have breast implants are doing it to enhance their self-esteem, feel more confident and so on (rather like "I wear pretty underwear for me, not some man").
Which may well be true, but seems to ignore the wider cultural context.
Still, most people who don't like plastic surgery consider implants for women who have had mastectomies to be reasonable, and most people consider orthodontic work to be reasonable - somehow these things "don't count" as body modifications.
And is "I want an even, white smile" really much different from "I want bigger breasts"?
I think there's a distinction between things like genital mutilation and breast ironing, which are fundamentally destructive of women's bodies in aid of some imagined idea of sexual purity, and things like tattoos and piercings, which aren't. Breast implants are probably nearer the latter than the former.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
There is also the consent issue. You need to be of age and able to consent, to get a boob job. (You also need quite a lot of cash up front -- cosmetic surgery is not covered by health insurance.) Mutilating a nine-year-old girl doesn't meet that criteria.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
For those who don't know, breast ironing is a practice in which the breasts of young girls are pounded flat using hot stones and hammers. This is considered a wise thing to do to girls to protect them from rape. In the Camaroon culture it's commonly done by female relatives.
I just heard of this and I'm so disgusted and so angry. Just because this is common in a minority culture the reports seem to be slightly sympathetic to the mothers who do this to their daughters, as though the slightest bit of research or even anecdotal evidence wouldn't demonstrated that breast plumpness has very little to do with incidents of rape.
This sort of thing is comparable to foot binding to make women more attractive and also perpetuated by mothers, but that was the 19th century and, today, no matter how uneducated and isolated your culture is, wouldn't you think a mother would need a really strong reason to visit this amount of pain on her daughter. Wouldn't she look for alternative methods to protect her from rape?
I don't know. I don't know what rape culture might be like in Cameroon, and how much of this barbaric practice is based on real fear of a real threat, and how much is just a nod to a barbaric custom. It is horrible either way.
It made me think, though, of reports that African American parents will teach their sons to adopt certain behaviors to minimize problems with racial profiling, especially with police-- limiting their behavior/freedom in ways that also seems regressive and pandering to racism. I have a similar reaction, but at the same time have to accept my limited knowledge of the culture/ actual situation this is coming from. I wonder if something similar isn't going on here-- and whether the mothers are to blame or the patriarchal rape culture.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
It made me think, though, of reports that African American parents will teach their sons to adopt certain behaviors to minimize problems with racial profiling, especially with police-- limiting their behavior/freedom in ways that also seems regressive and pandering to racism. I have a similar reaction, but at the same time have to accept my limited knowledge of the culture/ actual situation this is coming from. I wonder if something similar isn't going on here-- and whether the mothers are to blame or the patriarchal rape culture.
Well, I think it might depend to what extent the actors in both situations identify themselves with the cultures.
If it was a WHITE COP telling the black youth how to act so as to avoid getting a shit-beating from his more excitable colleagues, I don't think we'd consider him to be a very good guy. Especially if he continued to be best-buds with those miscreant colleagues, socializing them with regularly and extolling their virtues at Cop Of The Year dinners.
Basically, if it's at the point where a good cop has to be advising blacks about how not to get beat up by the bad cops, he needs to get off the fence, head down to Internal Affairs, and initiate the process that will hopefully lead to the bad cops being fired and eventually jailed.
I don't know much about the people in Cameroon, but I'm guessing that the women involved in breast-ironing aren't doing much to challenge the power of men to rape women. And, in fact, probably don't want to do much.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
I don't know much about the people in Cameroon, but I'm guessing that the women involved in breast-ironing aren't doing much to challenge the power of men to rape women. And, in fact, probably don't want to do much.
How exactly would you envisage them going about challenging it?
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
I don't know much about the people in Cameroon, but I'm guessing that the women involved in breast-ironing aren't doing much to challenge the power of men to rape women. And, in fact, probably don't want to do much.
How exactly would you envisage them going about challenging it?
Well, hence my last sentence. I am doubtful that the women see anything wrong with the cultural attitudes that supposedly neccessitate breast-ironing, and wouldn't do anything to challenge them even if that society afforded them the opportunity to do so.
But I'm pretty new to this topic, so I could certainly be wrong. Is it the case that the thinking of these women is something along the lines of "Well, there are some pretty fucked up men out there, and much as I'd like to throw them all in jail, that's not feasible right now, so the only option is to disfigure my daughter's breasts"?
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
But none of this is as maddening and inexplicable to me as the practice of opening the skin of the chest to insert plastic bags of fluid in order to make oneself more attractive to men. Done voluntarily by western women.
I am usually told on this subject that some women who have breast implants are doing it to enhance their self-esteem, feel more confident and so on (rather like "I wear pretty underwear for me, not some man").
Which may well be true, but seems to ignore the wider cultural context.
Still, most people who don't like plastic surgery consider implants for women who have had mastectomies to be reasonable, and most people consider orthodontic work to be reasonable - somehow these things "don't count" as body modifications.
And is "I want an even, white smile" really much different from "I want bigger breasts"?
I think there's a distinction between things like genital mutilation and breast ironing, which are fundamentally destructive of women's bodies in aid of some imagined idea of sexual purity, and things like tattoos and piercings, which aren't. Breast implants are probably nearer the latter than the former.
[Let's leave reconstructive surgery after cancer aside, that's not what we're talking about here.]
A big difference between tooth whitening and breast augmentation is that teeth can be whitened with a three dollar tube of toothpaste and the full cost of breast implants is around $10,000 d plus the fact that 25% need to be redone after 10 years or so. The same can be said about other things like make-up and hair die that are often compared in defense of the practice. Orthodontic work is expensive but is usually recommended for the health of the teeth, plus the appearance of the face effects all aspects of a person's life in a way that something under the clothing does not. The biggest difference between the things you mention and implants is that they don't require invasive, possibly life threatening, surgery.
I'm sure women who had their feet bound, had ribs removed to make their waists smaller, took arsenic to whiten their skin all "felt better about themselves," had "improved self-esteem," and felt more confident.
Yes it is different from the abuse these young Camaroon girls are having to endure, but the fact that it is being done, voluntarily, by educated post-feminist women makes it seem worse to me in some ways. The modern, western woman who does something this drastic to herself in order to please men perpetuates the world view of women as sexual objects.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Ariel: How exactly would you envisage them going about challenging it?
I'm certain that there are women's organisations in Cameroon dealing with this subjects. I'd start by listening to them.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Yeah, Cnight, read up on breast surgery. The actual surgical procedure. Then read up on lipo and its potential side effects.
Breast augmentation doesn't happen in cultures where women go topless, and therefore all boobs on the boob spectrum are considered natural. It happens when women are told only one version of boob is acceptable. A women having to cut herself to feel basically good about herself is a sign of a big problem.
Brest ironing. (Sigh) There is no end to physical manifestations of women's pain, is there?
It reminds me of something I meant to,put to y'all at some point-- the chastity belt. The old wink- nudge explanation for the existence of chastity belts is that they kept horny wives under control while the husband was off fighting the barbarian hordes, or whatever. I found myself wondering the other day if it was instead a method of rape prevention. Maybe even something a woman herself put on. Maybe even something a woman invented.
Early European explorers in New England wrote amused anecdotes about Native American women who would basically fill their vaginal cavities with foreign objects to prevent rape. They evidently found it cute.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
It made me think, though, of reports that African American parents will teach their sons to adopt certain behaviors to minimize problems with racial profiling, especially with police-- limiting their behavior/freedom in ways that also seems regressive and pandering to racism. I have a similar reaction, but at the same time have to accept my limited knowledge of the culture/ actual situation this is coming from. I wonder if something similar isn't going on here-- and whether the mothers are to blame or the patriarchal rape culture.
Well, I think it might depend to what extent the actors in both situations identify themselves with the cultures.
If it was a WHITE COP telling the black youth how to act so as to avoid getting a shit-beating from his more excitable colleagues, I don't think we'd consider him to be a very good guy. Especially if he continued to be best-buds with those miscreant colleagues, socializing them with regularly and extolling their virtues at Cop Of The Year dinners.
Basically, if it's at the point where a good cop has to be advising blacks about how not to get beat up by the bad cops, he needs to get off the fence, head down to Internal Affairs, and initiate the process that will hopefully lead to the bad cops being fired and eventually jailed.
I don't know much about the people in Cameroon, but I'm guessing that the women involved in breast-ironing aren't doing much to challenge the power of men to rape women. And, in fact, probably don't want to do much.
As I said, in the context of African American cultures, the narratives I have read have been African American mothers primarily speaking to their sons. Which seems to me to parallel what's being described here-- African mothers seeking extreme measures to protect their daughters. Whether those measures are warranted, or are based really on tradition/ social custom/ fear-based myths I would of course have no way of knowing. But in both cases the mothers involved would not be in a position of power to change the system-- unlike the white cop in your analogy.
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
I don't know much about the people in Cameroon, but I'm guessing that the women involved in breast-ironing aren't doing much to challenge the power of men to rape women. And, in fact, probably don't want to do much.
How exactly would you envisage them going about challenging it?
Well, hence my last sentence. I am doubtful that the women see anything wrong with the cultural attitudes that supposedly neccessitate breast-ironing, and wouldn't do anything to challenge them even if that society afforded them the opportunity to do so.
Both of us are speculating beyond our knowledge of course, that that seems a HUGE leap to me.
[ 26. March 2016, 20:53: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
...most people consider orthodontic work to be reasonable
If the teeth are seriously mal-aligned, a person cannot chew their food properly, which may lead to digestive problems.
Moo
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Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I'm really having a hard time believing that people are comparing have your teeth straightened to smashing the hell out of some 9 year old's breasts. Is this what the ship has fallen to?
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
People? One person, by my reading. And several people saying, "No, that doesn't compare."
Seriously, after reading all this, that is what bothers you?
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
...most people consider orthodontic work to be reasonable
If the teeth are seriously mal-aligned, a person cannot chew their food properly, which may lead to digestive problems.
Moo
If teeth are that bad they would have been since an early age, and certainly in most of the Western world would have been treated during childhood. It has nothing at all to do with an adult deciding they need their teeth straightened (except after some accident that had resulted in damage to the jaw and/or teeth - and, I don't think anyone has suggested anything wrong with plastic surgery to repair damage from an accident or illness).
But, it's on a whole different planet to women putting their young daughters through what must be considerable pain, and with major burns that pain could easily persist throughout their life, in order to make them unattractive to potential rapists in the future. Presumably making them unattractive to potential husbands as well.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Yeah, while I stand by my statement that a woman getting her breasts cut to "feel pretty" signifies a huge problem, I don't think there is any question that it is very definitely a problem of the first world variety.
Back to rape prevention in general, though-- it seems to me it's something women have had to tackle since the beginning of time. And while I understand someone's disgust at mothers doing this to their daughters, my knee jerk reaction to the idea that "they must not care enough to appeal to the authorities" is," Yeah, right." Even in our supposedly well developed country, how well does that work?
Ever heard the audio recordings of Nicole Brown Simpson's 911 calls? Ten- fifteen minutes of her going from fright to panic to fury as the dispatcher seems more focused on her controlling tone of voice than the information she is giving.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
People? One person, by my reading. And several people saying, "No, that doesn't compare."
Seriously, after reading all this, that is what bothers you?
I doubt my outrage about the practice of breast ironing would improve on anybody else's.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
I think your "what is the Ship coming to??" Comment just made me misunderstand the rest of your post, which makes sense. That line still doesn't make sense, though. But whatever.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I just meant, what the hell is wrong with people who could compare smashing girls' breasts with straightening girls' teeth. I mean like WHAT THE FUCKING FUCKETY FUCK FUCK is wrong with someone who could equate those?!
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
People? One person, by my reading. And several people saying, "No, that doesn't compare."
I count no people.
My post, which I think introduced orthodontics to the discussion, was comparing orthodontics to breast enhancements and other cosmetic plastic surgery. It compares "breast ironing" to FGM, and says that those are similar to each other, and different from all this other stuff.
I assume I'm your one person, and I don't see how you could have got the impression you did from my post.
Twilight's OP compares breast ironing to boob jobs. I'm not sure they're so close - I'm comparing breast enhancements, rhinoplasty and so on with orthodontics, and suggesting that cosmetic surgery is closer to orthodontics than it is to "breast ironing".
I got interrupted whilst composing the post that was going to introduce ear piercing to the discussion (boob jobs are somewhat destructive, but involve consenting adults. It is widely acceptable to pierce the ears of small children - obviously consent isn't in the question, but the damage is minimal) so perhaps I won't get to hear how I'm comparing piercing your daughter's ears with pummelling her breasts with hot stones.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
I deplore cultures that do shit to females.
Then you deplore every culture in the world.
LC:
Not all plastic surgery is on the same spectrum. Boob job =\= caps.
Whilst breast augmentation is not the same thing as breast ironing, it is in the same spectrum. It is about women conforming instead of men behaving.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
I agree it's about men behaving.
But, in what sense is it about women conforming? Yes, cosmetic enhancements can be about women conforming to an ideal of beauty that is often defined by men. But, surely breast ironing is diametrically opposite? It's about not conforming to what men define as desirable by deliberately making girls undesirable.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
Well, I'm the one who brought up implants in the same post as breast ironing, not to say that they are comparable as to pain or damage to the tissue but as what LilBuddha says part of the whole spectrum of women's breasts needed to be artificially changed.
The women who beat their daughter's breasts with hot spatulas are conforming to the idea that a woman's attractiveness is all about her breasts in the same way that a woman who gets implants for herself is conforming to that idea. Both women and men have taken a body part meant for feeding babies and sexualized it. The woman who thinks her daughter won't be raped if her breasts are flat and the 19 year-old girl who thinks men wont find her attractive unless her breasts are large and circular, are buying into the same false idea.
[ 27. March 2016, 10:33: Message edited by: Twilight ]
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Both women and men have taken a body part meant for feeding babies and sexualized it.
And, what's the problem? A part of the female body has a primary function (feeding babies) but has also gained a secondary function (sexual attraction). Why can't these multiple functions co-exist? If you think that's bad, just think how bad we have it - our primary sexual organ is also our body's waste disposal chute.
Mammary glands in humans are unique in that they are a) constantly protruding and b) are unusually large relative to body size. For the purpose of feeding infants there is no physiological reason why they shouldn't only enlarge towards the end of pregnancy. Therefore, evolution has developed these unique features for some secondary purpose other than just to feed infants. Generally, such relatively impractical evolutionary developments often relate to courtship - though usually it's the male that has the gaudy feathers etc. to attract the best (or most) females to him. If the unique mammary glands in humans fulfill a similar role then it's, unusually, so that women can attract the best men to her.
But, if enlarged and constantly protruding breasts do serve a secondary sexual role that doesn't excuse men from our obsession with them. It certainly doesn't excuse men from rape. But, it also means that by deliberately damaging them women are also preventing that secondary function of attracting a good mate - which potentially leaves these poor girls facing the prospect of either no husband or a bad husband.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Both women and men have taken a body part meant for feeding babies and sexualized it.
And, what's the problem? A part of the female body has a primary function (feeding babies) but has also gained a secondary function (sexual attraction). Why can't these multiple functions co-exist? If you think that's bad, just think how bad we have it - our primary sexual organ is also our body's waste disposal chute.
Maybe you'll see the problem when your primary sexual organ is so fixed upon by the opposite sex that you're expected to wear clothing that lifts it up and sticks it out so that it's size can be easily evaluated by all and sundry and over time normal ones become simply not acceptable and so you'll be expected to have painful surgery to add lengthening attachments, or, conversely, your well meaning but ignorant parents will decide the best way to avoid unwanted attention or physical assault will be to beat it into a smaller size.
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
But, that's not a problem with breasts having a secondary sexual characteristic.
That's a problem about our society being totally screwed up over sex. It's about arbitrary ideals of beauty that are unrealistic for anyone. It's about a fucked up society deciding that one particular size of breast is more attractive, for no particular reason at all as far as I can tell.
And, it's not just women who have unrealistic expectations thrust on them and finding themselves feeling inadequate. Try being a nerdy, wimpy man when everyone around is looking for the strong and muscled men - a different characteristic, but is that really that different from being a flattish chested woman?
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Boob job =\= caps.
Whilst breast augmentation is not the same thing as breast ironing, it is in the same spectrum. It is about women conforming instead of men behaving.
How do you feel about rhinoplasty? It involves (mostly) women altering their bodies to conform to some beauty standard - but the nose isn't a particularly sexual body part. It's a less violent operation than a breast enlargement, but in my mind, that's the only difference between the two.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I maintain that the key thing is consent, and agency. It is my body and I get to tattoo it, enhance or deflate, pierce, adorn or deform at will. The key thing is that you do not get to decide this for me.
In my lifetime the trend against circumcision at birth has nearly completely passed. Except for religious reasons, in the US it is no longer standard practice to bob a baby boy's dick. If he wants it done he can do it when he's older.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I agree it's about men behaving.
But, in what sense is it about women conforming? Yes, cosmetic enhancements can be about women conforming to an ideal of beauty that is often defined by men. But, surely breast ironing is diametrically opposite? It's about not conforming to what men define as desirable by deliberately making girls undesirable.
It is the same standard (desirability) that one is adapting one's behaviour to. The goal is different, but the standard is the same.
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
How do you feel about rhinoplasty?
I think you are missing the point. Rhinoplasty and dental work are gender neutral cosmetic surgery. The individual's motivation affects what category such surgery fits. Boob jobs are gender specific and conform to male standard the overwhelming majority of the time.
For another example, consider labial modification. This is undertaken almost exclusively by hetero women. Why not gay women? Because lesbians do not feel the need to adapt to male expectation.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Whilst breast augmentation is not the same thing as breast ironing, it is in the same spectrum. It is about women conforming instead of men behaving.
What male behavior is breast augmentation meant to suppress or elicit? Liking you? (generic you) In that case isn't it more manipulation than capitulation?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
People? One person, by my reading. And several people saying, "No, that doesn't compare."
I count no people.
My post, which I think introduced orthodontics to the discussion, was comparing orthodontics to breast enhancements and other cosmetic plastic surgery. It compares "breast ironing" to FGM, and says that those are similar to each other, and different from all this other stuff.
I assume I'm your one person, and I don't see how you could have got the impression you did from my post.
Twilight's OP compares breast ironing to boob jobs. I'm not sure they're so close - I'm comparing breast enhancements, rhinoplasty and so on with orthodontics, and suggesting that cosmetic surgery is closer to orthodontics than it is to "breast ironing".
I got interrupted whilst composing the post that was going to introduce ear piercing to the discussion (boob jobs are somewhat destructive, but involve consenting adults. It is widely acceptable to pierce the ears of small children - obviously consent isn't in the question, but the damage is minimal) so perhaps I won't get to hear how I'm comparing piercing your daughter's ears with pummelling her breasts with hot stones.
I said you weren't comparing them!
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Whilst breast augmentation is not the same thing as breast ironing, it is in the same spectrum. It is about women conforming instead of men behaving.
What male behavior is breast augmentation meant to suppress or elicit? Liking you? (generic you) In that case isn't it more manipulation than capitulation?
If the game were not rigged, you would have a point. But it is biased towards what is perceived to please men.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I just meant, what the hell is wrong with people who could compare smashing girls' breasts with straightening girls' teeth. I mean like WHAT THE FUCKING FUCKETY FUCK FUCK is wrong with someone who could equate those?!
Yeah, I finally got that-- it was the comment about the Ship that threw me.
I read Twilight as saying ( in part) " and this isn't about benighted third world folk, we are just as bad, in our way," to which I kind of agree. But there are two issues at work here-- the breast beating isn't just some cultural cosmetic preference ( which would actually put it in the realm of removing a rib, or breast cutting-- let's call that what it is. ) it is a rape prevention technique. Administered by the women themselves.
I mentioned the explorer letters above-- basically, it was people from one of the early New World expeditions-- Drake, maybe? -- joking around about a woman who basically filled herself with sand so that nothing could get in there. I can't even type that without tears coming to my eyes. And it was the first thing I thought of when I read this-- what kind of hell must these women have been going through to decide something this brutal was the only solution?
[ 27. March 2016, 17:25: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Whilst breast augmentation is not the same thing as breast ironing, it is in the same spectrum. It is about women conforming instead of men behaving.
What male behavior is breast augmentation meant to suppress or elicit? Liking you? (generic you) In that case isn't it more manipulation than capitulation?
If the game were not rigged, you would have a point. But it is biased towards what is perceived to please men.
Again, topless women. In cultures where girly boobs and ol' lady boobs swing free, women don't care what people think.
First of all, we have bras, which hold breasts in an unnatural position people begin to think of as normal. Second, we have a culture that frankly dismisses older women as useless. It's not just " youth is revered" it's "when you get to a certain age, expect shop counter assistants to ignore you, people to cut right in front of you in line as if you weren't there, people to glance at you at four way stops and not even touch the break,people holding doors for others to slam it in your face, and expect that any time you might protest you become the problem."
So, when I heard," Women get surgical procedures to feel good about themselves," what I hear is, " they are cutting themselves to create the impression that they are closer to an age that isn't invisible."
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Boob job =\= caps.
Whilst breast augmentation is not the same thing as breast ironing, it is in the same spectrum. It is about women conforming instead of men behaving.
How do you feel about rhinoplasty? It involves (mostly) women altering their bodies to conform to some beauty standard - but the nose isn't a particularly sexual body part. It's a less violent operation than a breast enlargement, but in my mind, that's the only difference between the two.
Rhinoplasty often involves removing evidence of "ethnicity"
(Agreeing with you, basically, just thought that exta layer of wrong needed pointing out.)
[ 27. March 2016, 17:46: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Whilst breast augmentation is not the same thing as breast ironing, it is in the same spectrum. It is about women conforming instead of men behaving.
What male behavior is breast augmentation meant to suppress or elicit? Liking you? (generic you) In that case isn't it more manipulation than capitulation?
If the game were not rigged, you would have a point. But it is biased towards what is perceived to please men.
When you say "men behaving" you seem to be implying that men liking boobies of a certain configuration are misbehaving. Or is it men only dating women with acceptable body shapes who are misbehaving?
Misbehaving seems to imply moral culpability. Which is saying that men have a moral responsibility to date women they don't find attractive.
I'm not sure "men behaving" is the phrase you want there.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Or for fuck's sake, mt, that is obtuse to the point of absurdity.
A woman's value in most societies is her usefulness to men. Breast enhancement is playing to that. If men (general) were to truly value women as people, whatever floated any individual's boat would be just that. However, in most of the west, a big breast is best.
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
we are just as bad, in our way,
I think this is a complicated thing. Whilst the same ethos drive the behaviour, one is clearly worse. However, this is more a result of circumstance than any moral superiority, so the statement has merit.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Oh, come on, MT, you're not that obtuse.
[crosspost edit-- fistbumps libB]
It's not that men are guilty if they aren't attracted to unattractive women-- although I would argue that mass media is really good at telling men what they can and cannot find attractive. I hung out with boys as a tween, and I remember them checking and double checking with their friends to see if the girls they liked were impressive enough to publicly admire.
It is that our culture has this added permission for people-- not just men-- to be savagely rude to people who are designated unattractive. Or to simply treat them like they don't exist. (See what I wrote above.And see above about "removing signs of ethnicity"-- often what we are told is " unattractive" is simply "other.")
Yeah, I know, it's stupid to read the comments, but in some of the FB discussions about films I get into, what always astounds me is that there is always some young douche-- usually bolstere by two or three more-- who gets really angry and militant when anyone, male or female, praises a woman he finds ugly. If men should be allowed to be attracted to anyone they please, where do these guys come from? And why do they insist with such conviction that their definition of ugly is unchallengable? Why the fuck should they care if there are guys in the world who think Melissa McCarthy is kind if hot, in a way?
Answer: our culture teaches men in a uniquely agressive way that the women they choose reflects their status. Thetefore, attraction can't be arbitrary or personal. These dudebros-- and Hollywood, and the Beeb, and every other entertainment source that profits off of people's insecurities-- need there to be a strictly defined "hot" and a strictly defined " ugly" so men like them can prove to other men that their taste in women is acceptable.
And I think this makes everyone miserable-- men and women both. Particularly young ones.
This is not an endictment of all men ( but anyone with common sense shouln't have to be told that) but of our weird-- ass, capialistic, advertizing dependent culture. It makes a lot of money off of hitting men in their weak spots, but paints it as privilege. And part of that priviledge is getting to abuse people who don't please you.
[ 27. March 2016, 18:39: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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