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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Labour Party Leadership Contest
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I am voting for JC (appropriately for a Christian website). Labour trying to out tory the tories is doomed to failure.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Corbyn without a doubt. A no-nonsense man of intellect, integrity and principle. He also seems to be confounding the right wingers who say he couldn't win - all the gossip I'm picking up is that he's very popular with the general public.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Corbyn without a doubt. A no-nonsense man of intellect, integrity and principle. He also seems to be confounding the right wingers who say he couldn't win - all the gossip I'm picking up is that he's very popular with the general public.
He has beliefs - which is a refreshing change. But the downside is that he is a sitting duck for the likes of the Daily Mail and the Sun. They will pillory him into smithereens - it will make what they did to Miliband look like a picnic. Think "Michael Foot's Donkey Jacket" and then multiply by a factor of 10.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I'm picking up is that he's very popular with the general public.
I very much hope that we get the chance to put that idea to the public vote!
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Corbyn. As a lefty the way of integrity, to my mind, is to advocate for what you believe in, and try to win the war of ideas to gain public support. I don't see the point of being Tory-lite just to get power.
Ol' Tone can stick his 'heart transplant' up his arse.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
Corbyn all the way. Anything that makes Labour that bit less electable is worth supporting... ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Corbyn all the way. Anything that makes Labour that bit less electable is worth supporting...
It's interesting. I see lots of people saying that a move leftwards would be the wrong thing to do, yet no evidence is ever cited. By contrast, the SNP were generally well to the left of Labour in Scotland and (for a mixture of reasons) won a landslide.
In a shocking move, journos are just starting to ask the general public (rather than a focus group in Slough) what they want. And here's the result: the public agree with Corbyn.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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agingjb
Shipmate
# 16555
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Posted
I suppose that politicians who can contrive to suggest that they are on the same side as their voters will attract votes.
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Refraction Villanelles
Posts: 464 | From: Southern England | Registered: Jul 2011
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
It's interesting that the Tories are wanting Corbyn, thinking he's an easy target.
After Michael Howard's failure in 2005, I recall the left were preferring his successor to be the younger, inexperienced toff who'd never had a proper job, lacked an understanding of the working classes and was seen as an unelectable fool who was too far right of centre.
Be careful what you wish for...
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Corbyn without a doubt. A no-nonsense man of intellect, integrity and principle. He also seems to be confounding the right wingers who say he couldn't win - all the gossip I'm picking up is that he's very popular with the general public.
He has beliefs - which is a refreshing change. But the downside is that he is a sitting duck for the likes of the Daily Mail and the Sun. They will pillory him into smithereens - it will make what they did to Miliband look like a picnic. Think "Michael Foot's Donkey Jacket" and then multiply by a factor of 10.
Sadly, it's Labour themselves who'll slaughter Corbyn. If he becomes leader, I can see the parliamentary Party engineering another leadership challenge within a year - ignoring the democratic decision of the whole Party. And that's when Labour has really, finally had it.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I see lots of people saying that a move leftwards would be the wrong thing to do, yet no evidence is ever cited.
The evidence is every general election in the last half a century or so. Left wing parties may command the fierce loyalty of their members and have a solid core of voters, but they don't win elections and become governments. Those achievements go to whichever party can hold the centre ground.
If Labour move left they will cede the centre ground to the Tories, and therefore become more likely to lose the next election.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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The Phantom Flan Flinger
Shipmate
# 8891
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Posted
Can the centre and the left not co-exist within one party?
Given anecdotal evidence that Corbyn is popular with some of the public, a mix of popular socialist policies and policies that appeal to the centre would appear to be a winning formula.
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http://www.faith-hope-and-confusion.com/
Posts: 1020 | From: Leicester, England | Registered: Dec 2004
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
The evidence is every general election in the last half a century or so. Left wing parties may command the fierce loyalty of their members and have a solid core of voters, but they don't win elections and become governments. Those achievements go to whichever party can hold the centre ground.
If Labour move left they will cede the centre ground to the Tories, and therefore become more likely to lose the next election.
Those are arguments from 20 years ago. Just as 90s Labour were right to move on from 70s policies, 2010s Labour should recognise that politics has changed a lot since 1997. A move to popular socialist policies wouldn't cede the centre ground to the Tories simply because these Tories are nowhere near the centre ground: they're probably the most extreme doctrinaire right wing Government we've had in living memory. That they were pushed towards the centre in 2010-15 by the LibDems is to the shame of the LibDems, who succeeded only in making the Tories look acceptable.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Those are arguments from 20 years ago.
Really? As I've said in the Purg thread, without Blair the Labour Party hasn't won a general election since 1974 and hasn't won a majority of seats in England since 1966. The argument for winning from the centre is compelling, though I'm happy for Labour to ignore it.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Corbyn all the way. Anything that makes Labour that bit less electable is worth supporting...
But many in the general public agree with a lot of his policies/beliefs.
Shame they didn't ask a question about whether they considered Hezbollah to be their friends.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Corbyn all the way. Anything that makes Labour that bit less electable is worth supporting...
But many in the general public agree with a lot of his policies/beliefs.
Shame they didn't ask a question about whether they considered Hezbollah to be their friends.
Isn't it rather Christian of him to offer the hand of friendship - in the sense of being willing to speak to people - despite disagreeing with them? ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
Compare and contrast Thatcher's love-in with Pinochet.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Corbyn all the way. Anything that makes Labour that bit less electable is worth supporting...
But many in the general public agree with a lot of his policies/beliefs.
Shame they didn't ask a question about whether they considered Hezbollah to be their friends.
Given that Hezbollah and ISIS are enemies, I'd guess that even things like that might be flexible over the next few years. Also, this isn't America. Pro-Palestinian views are mainstream in Britain.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
I don't have a vote, but my sister-in-law does and she is for Corbyn. Her brother likewise. I agree wholeheartedly.
Never heard of the others.
Tony Blair says that anyone who says he is heart and soul with Corbyn should get a transplant.
Tony could use a brain transplant, IMHO
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Also, this isn't America. Pro-Palestinian views are mainstream in Britain.
I think you can be in favour of Palestinians without being in favour of terrorists (in the same way that one might be in favour of a United Ireland but deplore the IRA). I'm not so sure that pro-Hezbollah views are mainstream in Britain.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Corbyn. As a lefty the way of integrity, to my mind, is to advocate for what you believe in, and try to win the war of ideas to gain public support. I don't see the point of being Tory-lite just to get power.
Ol' Tone can stick his 'heart transplant' up his arse.
Amen ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Amika
Shipmate
# 15785
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Posted
I will be voting for Corbyn. This leadership vote has exposed the party as more right-wing than I'd ever realized and if Corbyn fails I shall never vote Labour again, whichever of the other candidates wins.
I voted for Ed Miliband in the election out of desperation and loyalty, but Labour's true colours are now revealed and they are surprisingly blue. If Corbyn fails I'll be going Green next time rather than attempt to choose between two Tory parties.
Posts: 147 | From: Ingerland | Registered: Aug 2010
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
Given anecdotal evidence that Corbyn is popular with some of the public, a mix of popular socialist policies and policies that appeal to the centre would appear to be a winning formula.
I don't think Corbyn can compromise. He's too much the principled rebel. Similarly, I don't think he'd be prepared to compromise enough to provide some left-wing spine in a centrist candidate's cabinet.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Did anyone see Corbyn on C4 news a week or two ago? It's not exactly a hostile environment, but he was asked about his "friends" comment. Corbyn lost the plot, ranted, raved and almost stormed off. It left me feeling he hasn't the emotional equilibrium to cope with being Party Leader, let alone PM. However, now that Blair has condemned him, his chances of leadership have sky rocketed. Last time round Blair made it quite clear he favoured Dave, so the party went with Ed. Although the Tories revere him, TB has no following within Labour, as far as I can see.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
On the other hand you have Prezza saying how good it is that JC is standing, so he could cancel out the Blair effect.
I like that the presentation of JC's policies was a press-free zone: as The Times* put it, the policies of 1983 presented as if it were 1883.
*Opinion piece today by Philip Collins - very good and also quite funny in places.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Did anyone see Corbyn on C4 news a week or two ago? It's not exactly a hostile environment, but he was asked about his "friends" comment. Corbyn lost the plot, ranted, raved and almost stormed off. It left me feeling he hasn't the emotional equilibrium to cope with being Party Leader, let alone PM.
My reading of that episode was that Corbyn lost his patience when Guru-Murthy was intent on indulging in trashy interview technique. Guru-Murthy has yet to learn he's no Paxman, and when to let go of a question that's going nowhere.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
Well, that should sink his chances then.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Jeremy Corbyn has been a top-notch member of the awkward squad in parliament for decades. He's a lot like Paul Flynn, the veteran Newport (West) MP in that and Flynn too is popular and left-wing.
I honestly doubt that Corbyn has the steel in him to handle years and years of questioning plus keeping the herd of cats that is the Parliamentary Labour Party in any kind of order, so I'll be holding my nose and voting for Andy Burnham.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
Andy Burnham would also be my second choice.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Alwyn
Shipmate
# 4380
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Posted
Corbyn.
quote:
Originally posted by Amika:
I will be voting for Corbyn. This leadership vote has exposed the party as more right-wing than I'd ever realized ...
I agree. The threat by the Labour right to force another leadership contest if Corbyn wins reeks of entitlement ('If they don't vote the way we want, we'll make them vote again until they choose one of ours'). Perhaps that threat, and the threat to split the party if Corbyn is elected, and the description of the MPs who put Corbyn on the leadership ballot as 'morons' by a former aide to Tony Blair, will make a lot of us on the left think hard about whether to vote Labour in future?
Labour went to the right in the 1990s. Labour then won a general election in '97. Some people conclude that, therefore, Labour can only win by going to the right. I see it differently.
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Post hoc, ergo propter hoc
Posts: 849 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2003
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alwyn:
Labour went to the right in the 1990s. Labour then won a general election in '97. Some people conclude that, therefore, Labour can only win by going to the right. I see it differently.
And 2001, and 2005.
How do you see it differently? When did Labour last win by going to the left?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Alwyn:
Labour went to the right in the 1990s. Labour then won a general election in '97. Some people conclude that, therefore, Labour can only win by going to the right. I see it differently.
And 2001, and 2005.
How do you see it differently? When did Labour last win by going to the left?
When did Labour last fight an election by going to the left? Answer: 1983 against the backdrop of a jingoistic press cheering on a PM who had just won a war and a group of arrogant tossers deciding now was the time to split the party. If the Labour right grit their teeth and get on with it like the Labour left did in the Blair years then we'll see a very different story.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Alwyn:
Labour went to the right in the 1990s. Labour then won a general election in '97. Some people conclude that, therefore, Labour can only win by going to the right. I see it differently.
And 2001, and 2005.
How do you see it differently? When did Labour last win by going to the left?
When did Labour last fight an election by going to the left? Answer: 1983.
Yes, quite correct, but that's not the question I asked.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Alwyn:
Labour went to the right in the 1990s. Labour then won a general election in '97. Some people conclude that, therefore, Labour can only win by going to the right. I see it differently.
And 2001, and 2005.
How do you see it differently? When did Labour last win by going to the left?
1964 IIRC, after Wilson had won the leadership on the death of Gaitskill. The Tories by contrast only have to go back to 1970 (Heath) to find a win following a move to the left. It's been "Right, right; right, right, right" since, as far as electoral success is concerned.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Alwyn
Shipmate
# 4380
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
How do you see it differently? When did Labour last win by going to the left?
How do I see it differently? Labour lost repeatedly from 1979 to 1992. Was it because Margaret Thatcher occupied the centre ground? Hardly! Her politics, whatever you think of it, involved change which was radical then. Instead of occupying the centre ground, Thatcher redefined it - with privatisation, deregulation, the right to buy council homes and free-market economics - all policies which continued under subsequent leaders, both Conservative and New Labour.
When did Labour last win by going to the left? Good question! My guess would be under Clement Attlee, in 1945 (or 1950). Of course, I acknowledge your point that going to the left could mean that Labour loses the next election(s) - yes, you could be right.
Of course, conservative campaigners and the conservative media would relentlessly pillory a leader like Corbyn - but they would relentlessly attack any Labour leader. Tony Blair was the most right-wing leader in Labour history - that did not prevent them putting demon eyes on him in the famous 'New Labour, New Danger' poster in '97, nor did it prevent The Sun from calling Blair "THE MOST DANGEROUS MAN IN BRITAIN" on 24 June 1998. Yes, Blair went to the right and won - but, I suggest, a more left-wing Labour leader could still have won in '97, albeit with a smaller majority.
Like Thatcher, Attlee redefined the centre in British politics. Attlee's leadership left us with health care based on need, not the ability to pay; welfare to mitigate poverty and better pensions for dignity in old age; a duty to provide housing for people who were homeless through no fault of their own and better conditions for workers, among other policies.
As I see it, British politics is overdue for another transition in thinking, like the transformations of 1945 and 1979. I admit that I don't see any evidence that any of the Labour leadership candidates is able to achieve a transition like those of Attlee and Thatcher. I see Corbyn as the best chance for a leader who would actually challenge the post-Thatcher political consensus, rather than cringe and equivocate. For me, that's the least bleak option - to "Rage, rage against the dying of the light", as it were.
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Post hoc, ergo propter hoc
Posts: 849 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2003
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
I've just heard that The Labour Party is investigating postal voting for the leading because it appears that about a thousand votes* are from members of other parties*.
Do Shipmates have suggestions about who they might be voting for?
* i) a suspiciously round number ii) I think we all know which party they mean!
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I caz haz done votin fur realz, Jez we can !
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I've just heard that The Labour Party is investigating postal voting for the leading because it appears that about a thousand votes* are from members of other parties*.
Do Shipmates have suggestions about who they might be voting for?
* i) a suspiciously round number ii) I think we all know which party they mean!
Which party do you think they mean (genuine question): the Conservatives? The Greens? The Socialist Workers' Party?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I think the fears of entryism are overdone, even if there are a couple of thousand dogy affilates I think they'll get rather lost amongst the 400,000.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
That might depend on the margin of victory by the winning candidate.
(Congrats on voting for Corbyn, btw)
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I believe we can win the argument ...
We will either get Corbyn or Burnham - I could live with Burnham best of the triplets of Blairdom.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
I believe we can win the argument ...
We will either get Corbyn or Burnham - I could live with Burnham best of the triplets of Blairdom.
Burnham, the only Health Secretary to privatise a NHS hospital. Yes, he could be fun too!
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
I believe we can win the argument ...
We will either get Corbyn or Burnham - I could live with Burnham best of the triplets of Blairdom.
Burnham, the only Health Secretary to privatise a NHS hospital. Yes, he could be fun too!
I'll see your privatisation of an NHS hospital by Andy Burnham and raise it with Margaret Thatcher's grammar school closures in the 1970's.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I did say live with rather than be thrilled with.
Out of interest, Anglican't, would you oppose the renationalisation of the railways ?
[ 18. August 2015, 21:38: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I'll see your privatisation of an NHS hospital by Andy Burnham and raise it with Margaret Thatcher's grammar school closures in the 1970's.
Even the best have their imperfections.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Out of interest, Anglican't, would you oppose the renationalisation of the railways ?
Yes, on the basis that I don't think it'd make them any better as well as costing taxpayers' money.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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