Source: (consider it)
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Thread: What's a liberal? Who's a liberal?
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Joesaphat
Shipmate
# 18493
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Posted
I preached about the theological problems surrounding the idea of a physical resurrection. Parishioners and former students alike have said that I'm an 'old liberal.' Never mind the old, but what's liberal, really? Should one feel insulted or wear the badge with pride?
-------------------- Opening my mouth and removing all doubt, online.
Posts: 418 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2015
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Ah, the word to use today is "progressive"!
As per this website. [ 28. March 2016, 08:36: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Kitten
Shipmate
# 1179
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Posted
Its a label I wear with pride, although others have tried to use it as an insult against me
-------------------- Maius intra qua extra
Never accept a ride from a stranger, unless they are in a big blue box
Posts: 2330 | From: Carmarthenshire | Registered: Aug 2001
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ThunderBunk
 Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
Me. I'm a liberal. My faith has nothing to do with the literal accuracy of biblical accounts, it has nothing to do with temple sacrifices, it has nothing to do with pointless overturnings of the order of creation, serving nothing other than the divine ego created by certain religious persons.
These narratives are all faithful witnesses to the operation of God's love, but they are not literally accurate accounts of anything other than that love.
-------------------- Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
First tell me what you think an evangelical is ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
-------------------- Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Schroedinger's cat
 Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
Theologically, you should accept it if you are happy with it. If you doubt the reality of the physical resurrection, that probably makes you a liberal.
Labels - I think they are interesting, and I tend to accept them if other people want to use them, but I also define myself with other labels - often contradictory. They don't define who you are, they define how someone else has seen you.
-------------------- Blog Music for your enjoyment Lord may all my hard times be healing times take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan: Ah, the word to use today is "progressive"!
As per this website.
'Progressive' is often (in religion and elsewhere) presented as going back then skipping over a current misconception to a more correct future. Two of the books quoted on the website (Biblical Literalism and Made on Earth) seem to to follow the stereotype. In many cases 'progress' becomes not taking the false direction of those we disagree with but keeping to an original truth.
Rhetorically one can see the advantage: you can appeal to both the conservative and the radical.
-------------------- "controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
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LeRoc
 Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I don't use the word 'liberal' for myself outside of the Ship. I prefer the term 'Ecumenical' but I'll settle for 'progressive'.
-------------------- I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Bibaculus
Shipmate
# 18528
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Posted
There are maybe different forms of liberalism. And I think it is often a destination, and a mellowing with age (hence the 'old liberal'!)
I was, once upon a time, a scruple filled Anglo- and then Roman Catholic. The sort who worries about cleaning his teeth before Mass, in case he swallows some toothpaste and that breaks the Eucharistic fast (really, I actually was). It was a faith based on worry, if not fear.
Then I became a Conservative and Trad Roman Catholic, which at least made me feel superior. I knew I was right, I was part of the faithful remnant.
And now? I guess I am an Old Liberal. I am relaxed about sexuality (my own and others), which has been a great blessing. I think God is bigger than structures and orthodoxies.
Who knows what I might be next...
-------------------- A jumped up pantry boy who never knew his place
Posts: 257 | From: In bed. Mostly. When I can get away with it. | Registered: Dec 2015
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
It's a label. We all like to think we are masters of our own destinies, but most of the time we just conform our views over time to those of our preferred tribe. "Conservative" and "Liberal" are two well-known tribes. In their current iteration they derive a lot from American puritanism. I'd rather drink hemlock than join either, stuffed as they both are with brain-dead wanktrumpetry.
You don't believe me? Look around then...
-------------------- Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
I think "liberal" has come to mean so many things that it doesn't really mean anything any more. If someone labels you a liberal, you have to ask them "What do you mean by that?"
The same probably applies if you claim the label for yourself.
-------------------- "What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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LeRoc
 Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote: Honest Ron Bacardi: In their current iteration they derive a lot from American puritanism.
Yes, that's part of the reason why I don't think the term 'liberal' applies to me. Most of the issues that divide people into 'conservatives' vs 'liberals' (including the DH topics) are non-discussions where I come from.
-------------------- I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Liberals who deny the Resurrection ... ain't.
-------------------- Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
I see myself as liberal in the sense that I allow other points of view, and don't try to insist that my current pov on any aspect of theology is the only way to be a 'real' Christian.
And so, although I winced when the 'wrath of God was satisfied' line was sung on Good Friday, I sang it too in recognition that for some it works.
I don't mind what label others give me, knowing that none of them in the way they are using them are likely to fit, but seeing that life is too short to bother about name-calling.
-------------------- Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Schroedinger's cat
 Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
You see, I consider my self an evangelical because (among other things) I accept the physical resurrection. But I am not a conservative - I think sexuality and sexual expression is between the people concerned and God, and nothing to do with me. I think the patriarchy needs to be destroyed, especially in the church. I am a radical in many respects, but theologically, I am evangelical.
I have given up caring what other people call me. As long as it isn't exceptionally rude or libellous.
-------------------- Blog Music for your enjoyment Lord may all my hard times be healing times take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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LeRoc
 Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote: Schroedinger's cat: You see, I consider my self an evangelical because (among other things) I accept the physical resurrection.
You almost seem to claim this belief as exclusively evangelical.
-------------------- I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
With a political definition of "liberal"... I'm a liberal, you're all commies.
-------------------- "The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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LeRoc
 Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
The political term 'liberal' is even more problematic. In continental Europe, liberal parties are right-wing.
-------------------- I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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balaam
 Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat: But I am not a conservative - I think sexuality and sexual expression is between the people concerned and God.
I have seen the attitude one has to same sex relationships as being what defines a person as liberal theologically. Which would make me liberal.
But I am not a liberal at all. I am a fairly conservative evangelical.
But evangelical and liberal are not exclusive terms, it is possible to be both: Think Brian McLaren or Rob Bell.
-------------------- Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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ThunderBunk
 Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Martin60: Liberals who deny the Resurrection ... ain't.
Oh now, that is one of those phrases that really makes me see red. What does it mean to "deny the resurrection"? Jesus Christ is alive now, with me, in me, so I don't deny the resurrection.
But "conjuring tricks with bones"? See above.
-------------------- Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat: I have given up caring what other people call me. As long as it isn't exceptionally rude or libellous.
Like that old chestnut ---- Call me what you like, just don't call me late for tea.
I've called myself Liberal from time to time, but then I sometimes disappoint myself and realise that labels can be changed. The contents of the tin can't really be changed, they can however be used to either feed somebody or likewise choke them I suppose.
-------------------- Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Eutychus: First tell me what you think an evangelical is
As if there are only two choices ...
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
-------------------- Let us with a gladsome mind Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
You make my point ThunderBunk
If you can see through the mist:
How 'liberal', Spongiform like Jenkins are you? Is the hypostatic union, the Incarnation real?
Or, was Jesus Zaphod Beeblebrox? Just this guy, you know? Like Boogie proclaims.
-------------------- Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
Isn't liberal just a less pejorative term for heretic? Someone who is less traditional/ less conservative/ less orthodox than me is a liberal/ progressive/ heretic.
It follows that there isn't going to be a definition.
But it also implies that one is talking about the some traditional phylogeny. For instance I came across someone arguing that the pope was liberal based on his apparent rejection of conservative protestant beliefs. This might be correct were the pope a slightly wayward member of the arguer's bible study group.
However applying this to the Pope misses the fact that he is part of a tradition that went before rather than after Protestantism. You can't become more conservative if you haven't got anything to get back to.
(Of course many Catholics would also apply "liberal" to the pope, but from a standpoint that my arguer would have considered equally liberal).
-------------------- mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Boogie
 Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Martin60: Like Boogie proclaims.
Oi! I wasn't going to comment on this thread!
I don't proclaim, I just question and come to the only conclusions which make sense to me. I don't ask for anyone to agree with me, not at all.
I think Jesus was a man, an extraordinary man, full of the spirit of God. More so than any other person (there could have been others, of course, but we haven't heard of them).
But I don't think a man can be God.
I'm not a liberal - I'm hereticaly ecumental.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
-------------------- Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by ThunderBunk: quote: Originally posted by Martin60: Liberals who deny the Resurrection ... ain't.
Oh now, that is one of those phrases that really makes me see red. What does it mean to "deny the resurrection"? Jesus Christ is alive now, with me, in me, so I don't deny the resurrection.
But "conjuring tricks with bones"? See above.
I don't know anyone who would think of the resurrection as a conjuring trick with bones. David Jenkins certainly didn't. In the original Credo programme he talks about the significance of the resurrection being due to the fact that it was caused by God's action rather than being merely a conjuring trick with bones.
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
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Schroedinger's cat
 Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by LeRoc: quote: Schroedinger's cat: You see, I consider my self an evangelical because (among other things) I accept the physical resurrection.
You almost seem to claim this belief as exclusively evangelical.
Nope. But it sets me apart from the OP, who I would define, theologically speaking, as liberal.
-------------------- Blog Music for your enjoyment Lord may all my hard times be healing times take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Several years ago we had a thread where Christians of all stripes were chiming in, and I noticed that not a one of them (no matter how "out there", and no matter how many other miracles they denied) denied the bodily Resurrection. It was a huge comfort to me. Have things changed that much?
-------------------- Er, this is what I've been up to (book). Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Lamb Chopped: Several years ago we had a thread where Christians of all stripes were chiming in, and I noticed that not a one of them (no matter how "out there", and no matter how many other miracles they denied) denied the bodily Resurrection. It was a huge comfort to me. Have things changed that much?
I was thinking along those lines too, LC, except the discussion I remember was when somebody claimed that to deny the historicity of the resurrection was a hallmark of being a theological liberal. Numerous shipmates jumped in to say "I'm a theological liberal but believe in the resurrection as a fact in history". It was an assertion from outside that provoked that. Nobody here has quite asserted that, but they have come close - or rather, it's the other way around, their non-belief being why they call themselves liberal.
-------------------- Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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ThunderBunk
 Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Martin60: You make my point ThunderBunk
If you can see through the mist:
How 'liberal', Spongiform like Jenkins are you? Is the hypostatic union, the Incarnation real?
Or, was Jesus Zaphod Beeblebrox? Just this guy, you know? Like Boogie proclaims.
To my mind, Jenkins and Spong are very different creatures, and of totally diferent calibres. Jenkins was much closer to my position, as I understand myself and him, in that his faith in God as an entity beyond consciousness, rather than merely a name for a principle of human consciousness, which to my mind is where Spong ends up.
As for the rest, I believe in the realities behind the narratives, not in the literal truth of the narratives. In the case of the resurrection, the biblical accounts are not exactly of a physical life resumed on the same terms as those on which it was running before the crucifixion. The experience of the disciples was not a straightforward one, and I think it does that experience a serious disservice to see it only in terms of the revival of a corpse.
Probably a typical liberal answer, but I'm trying to be true to both spirit and intellect, which are the guides which have taken me where I have travelled.
-------------------- Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I debated this, but I guess I'll throw it in anyway--
I don't think belief in the real resurrection of Christ (that is, body, soul and everything, NOT as a metaphor) is the dividing line between conservative and liberal. I fear it is the dividing line between Christian and non-Christian, as Paul wrote:
quote: But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. (Romans 10:8-10)
-------------------- Er, this is what I've been up to (book). Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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ThunderBunk
 Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Lamb Chopped: I debated this, but I guess I'll throw it in anyway--
I don't think belief in the real resurrection of Christ (that is, body, soul and everything, NOT as a metaphor) is the dividing line between conservative and liberal. I fear it is the dividing line between Christian and non-Christian, as Paul wrote:
quote: But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. (Romans 10:8-10)
I was waiting for this.
Please stop trying to define me as a non-Christian. Firstly, my position is a mainstay of mainstream theology of the twentieth century. Secondly, not your job.
Any further attacks on my faith will be met in hell. This is personal, whatever handwaiving may occur.
-------------------- Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Gamaliel: quote: Originally posted by Eutychus: First tell me what you think an evangelical is
As if there are only two choices ...
After having suitably condemned any notions of binariness, and no matter how many choices you think there are, doubtless you will delight in telling us there is some truth in all of them which inform your perfectly balanced view ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
-------------------- Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by ThunderBunk: quote: Originally posted by Lamb Chopped: I debated this, but I guess I'll throw it in anyway--
I don't think belief in the real resurrection of Christ (that is, body, soul and everything, NOT as a metaphor) is the dividing line between conservative and liberal. I fear it is the dividing line between Christian and non-Christian, as Paul wrote:
quote: But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. (Romans 10:8-10)
I was waiting for this.
Please stop trying to define me as a non-Christian. Firstly, my position is a mainstay of mainstream theology of the twentieth century. Secondly, not your job.
Any further attacks on my faith will be met in hell. This is personal, whatever handwaiving may occur.
You talk as if: a) I wanted, rather than feared, this possibility. b) I was applying it to you personally, or indeed, to anybody here personally. c) Mainstream theology (or any theology, including mine) gets a vote. d) I was or ever do make it my job to decide whether an individual is a Christian.
Go ahead and take me to hell if you like. But if you do, you are basically saying "the bare mention of certain texts in discussion will be considered a personal attack by me."
-------------------- Er, this is what I've been up to (book). Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Boogie
 Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Lamb Chopped: I debated this, but I guess I'll throw it in anyway--
I don't think belief in the real resurrection of Christ (that is, body, soul and everything, NOT as a metaphor) is the dividing line between conservative and liberal. I fear it is the dividing line between Christian and non-Christian, as Paul wrote:
quote: But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. (Romans 10:8-10)
It says this at the front of our Church (I did the art work, the sunrise depicts the empty tomb)
I sat in Church on Easter Sunday looking at it and thinking 'is he?' I don't know any more.
I know that we can't possibly be physically resurrected - (who would get which atoms which have been recycled 1000s of times?) and, if not us, then why Jesus?
-------------------- Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by ThunderBunk: As for the rest, I believe in the realities behind the narratives, not in the literal truth of the narratives. In the case of the resurrection, the biblical accounts are not exactly of a physical life resumed on the same terms as those on which it was running before the crucifixion. The experience of the disciples was not a straightforward one, and I think it does that experience a serious disservice to see it only in terms of the revival of a corpse.
Probably a typical liberal answer, but I'm trying to be true to both spirit and intellect, which are the guides which have taken me where I have travelled.
In my Easter message, I affirmed the bodily resurrection of Christ, because I personally can't escape that as being what is presented to us in the Gospels and epistles.
I also acknowledged that some Christians did not believe, or feel the need to believe, in the bodily resurrection. I didn't label them liberals, heretics, or anything else. This assertion on my part, which I chose to include rather than keep to myself, arose directly from long and grace-filled discussions here on the Ship.
Describing views I for one happen to espouse a little more generously than "revival of a corpse" would be nice.
-------------------- Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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ThunderBunk
 Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Eutychus: Describing views I for one happen to espouse a little more generously than "revival of a corpse" would be nice.
It's attempting to be a way of describing one particular approach to the resurrection, not of dismissing it. Certainly not intended as an insult. Apologies for the lack of grace.
There are other ways of approaching the resurrection which to my mind present themselves from the biblical narrative. If you add together the post-resurrection appearances, he passes through walls, he appears at lakesides and roadsides without apparent approaching or retreating, and carries the scars of life-threatening wounds. This is not, to my mind, unambiguously supportive of an entirely organic approach to the resurrection. Rather, it sounds like an attempt to deal in narrative form with an intense experience of Christ's life within the community beyond the crucifixion. [ 28. March 2016, 15:45: Message edited by: ThunderBunk ]
-------------------- Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by ThunderBunk: To my mind, Jenkins and Spong are very different creatures, and of totally diferent calibres. Jenkins was much closer to my position, as I understand myself and him, in that his faith in God as an entity beyond consciousness, rather than merely a name for a principle of human consciousness, which to my mind is where Spong ends up.
Yes, I agree. That's a fundamental difference. And we must remember that Jenkins' famous comment about the Resurrection was frequently misquoted and misunderstood. [ 28. March 2016, 15:52: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Yes, I get all of that. Arguing about why we believe what we believe about the resurrection is probably another thread.
It's probably true that popularly within the Church, belief in the bodily resurrection is seen as a liberal/conservative litmus test.
Beyond that, it gets complicated. I know people who appear to all intents and purposes to adhere to liberal theology (higher criticism, etc.) who examine what the Bible says far more seriously than most of the evangelicals I know.
My own homegrown theology seems to have more in common with the likes of James Dunn (on the Spirit) and Paul Ricoeur (on inspiration and interpretation) than with most charismatics and evangelicals; but I still seem to be some sort of evangelical. Hence my earlier question which so irked Gamaliel.
-------------------- Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Eutychus: I know people who appear to all intents and purposes to adhere to liberal theology (higher criticism, etc.) who examine what the Bible says far more seriously than most of the evangelicals I know.
Yes; but many Evangelicals don't see that. Of course there are some liberals who too easily dismiss Scripture they don't understand/don't agree with/can't fit into a rationalistic worldview; but there are many others who examine it very carefully using good linguistic and theological tools.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by ThunderBunk: quote: Originally posted by Martin60: Liberals who deny the Resurrection ... ain't.
Oh now, that is one of those phrases that really makes me see red. What does it mean to "deny the resurrection"? Jesus Christ is alive now, with me, in me, so I don't deny the resurrection.
But "conjuring tricks with bones"? See above.
A "resurrection" which is not physical is not a resurrection; it is merely the continuation of a spiritual presence, the soul continuing to exist after the body dies.
My response to such a resurrection would be something along the lines of "So what?"
-------------------- "The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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ThunderBunk
 Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Fr Weber: "So what?"
Life in God.
-------------------- Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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LeRoc
 Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote: Fr Weber: A "resurrection" which is not physical is not a resurrection; it is merely the continuation of a spiritual presence, the soul continuing to exist after the body dies.
Are those the only two options?
-------------------- I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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anteater
 Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
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Posted
I'd really love it if we stopped arguing about definitions, because there is nobody to arbitrate as to who has the right to apply certain labels to themselves. E.g. the thread on introverts vs extroverts, which we all know to be the subject of many differing definitions.
So why the desire to debate what is a "liberal" when it has so many meanings?
Wouldn't it be better to debate specific beliefs or behaviour patterns? I just find arguments over words tedious.
So all right, you say, stay out of the thread. Fair point.
-------------------- Schnuffle schnuffle.
Posts: 2538 | From: UK | Registered: May 2006
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Well handled all (except me of course), especially ThunderBunk and Boogie, who just refuses EVER to take offense. Most eirenic. And ThunderBunk. Most impressive, you looked like you were losing it but you braked.
As for Jenkins: He is NOT misquoted and any misunderstanding is of his own manking: 'To believe in a Christian way, you don't necessarily have to have a belief that Jesus was born from literally a virgin mother [TRUE. Although it's a point of weakness not to], nor a precise belief that the risen Jesus had a literally physical body,' he said; and when this was attacked, he responded with a phrase that would continue to dog him: '(The Resurrection) is real. That's the point. All I said was 'literally physical'. I was very careful in the use of language. After all, a conjuring trick with bones proves only that somebody's very clever at a conjuring trick with bones.' - from Baptist Trainfan's Independent link.
A resurrection is literally physical WHATEVER ELSE it is. And was. Jesus stood again as ... Jesus. With four dimensional spatial attributes at least. Jenkins was too proud to deconstruct, backtrack, backpedal and reconstruct.
Boogie's position is NOT Christian. She, however, obviously is. Beliefs are two a penny after all. And to deny the necessarily, tautologically, redundantly physical resurrection isn't either. The risen Christ wasn't an epiphany, a vision, a hologram. The intersection of trans-eternal, transfinite divine and human, minded meat, a human person, ineffably continues.
And in every other regard I'm a screaming, postmodern liberal. Try me.
-------------------- Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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ThunderBunk
 Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
This thread makes me feel rather lonely, I must admit.
If you started it 15/20 years ago - around the time the Ship first opened its discussion boards, in fact - I wonder how many more people would have been prepared to wear the liberal badge, or rather have done so as a matter of course? A lot, I feel.
This reinforces my feeling that the liberal approach to and relationship with faith is becoming a minority position, and I really do feel that something is being lost, beyond the intellectual, propositional content of the liberal understanding itself. That is the priority of relationship over ideas; of process over doctrine. I find the increasing priority of what one believes over how it expresses itself deeply alienating. [ 28. March 2016, 18:14: Message edited by: ThunderBunk ]
-------------------- Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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LeRoc
 Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote: ThunderBunk: This reinforces my feeling that the liberal approach to and relationship with faith is becoming a minority position
I'm not sure about this. The main reason I don't really call myself a liberal is that fights over some issues (especially DH ones) aren't really relevant for me. So I don't want to define myself in terms that relate to that fight.
Questions of the form "should women be allowed to officiate?", "should gay people have the same place in church?" or "does evolution explain the diversity of species" are met by me with a "duh, of course". I don't see why I should name myself a term that refers to questions like this. I don't call myself a gravitationist either just because I believe in gravitation.
-------------------- I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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ThunderBunk
 Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by LeRoc: quote: ThunderBunk: This reinforces my feeling that the liberal approach to and relationship with faith is becoming a minority position
I'm not sure about this. The main reason I don't really call myself a liberal is that fights over some issues (especially DH ones) aren't really relevant for me. So I don't want to define myself in terms that relate to that fight.
Questions of the form "should women be allowed to officiate?", "should gay people have the same place in church?" or "does evolution explain the diversity of species" are met by me with a "duh, of course". I don't see why I should name myself a term that refers to questions like this. I don't call myself a gravitationist either just because I believe in gravitation.
Context is surely hugely important, and the context created by the OP is purely theological.
And I'm afraid that the other questions aren't as settled as we agree they should be. So either we simply avoid those questions altogether or continue to defend answers which are, to my mind, the only intellectually admissible ones, the only answers which allow me to fulfill the commandment to love God with all my mind. That, for me, is the source of my liberalism, and why I haven't entirely given up on the label.
I'm not saying that one can't fulfil this commandment without being a liberal; I'm just saying I can't.
-------------------- Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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LeRoc
 Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote: ThunderBunk: And I'm afraid that the other questions aren't as settled as we agree they should be.
Where I am from, they mostly are.
-------------------- I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by ThunderBunk: Context is surely hugely important, and the context created by the OP is purely theological.
I disagree. Having quote: theological problems surrounding the idea of a physical resurrection
and debating them is one thing. The context of discussing them in preaching, quite possibly on Easter Sunday, to a congregation that evidently held diverse views on the subject, is not just theological, it's pastoral. [ 28. March 2016, 19:06: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
-------------------- Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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