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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Not really progress
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
This notion came to mind and I thought I'd ask for reactions to it.
It seems to me that in modern times we have a recurring phenomenon in which:
(a) someone invents a new gadget or hobby, useful or entertaining;
(b) it becomes popular, so "everyone has to have it";
(c) society adjusts so it is expected that everyone has one; and
(d) it is then essentially mandatory.
I think this has happened repeatedly with (for instance) personal computers, cable or satellite TV and mobile telephones. (I might even list air conditioning and the automobile.) One of the consequences is that the middle and perhaps the lower class are required to buy stuff they previously got along without. This has the effect of preventing the middle and lower classes from making progress.
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
The internet, cheap smartphones and the democratisation of technology and information has on the contrary been a boon for poor people.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
What kind of progress do you mean? I'm confused by this post. It sounds like you mean the poor should not have these things, since it prevents them from progressing... from what to what? Many would say that this technology _is_ progress, and that the poor are progressing technologically along with everyone else.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
(a) someone invents a new gadget or hobby, useful or entertaining;
(b) it becomes popular, so "everyone has to have it";
(c) society adjusts so it is expected that everyone has one; and
(d) it is then essentially mandatory.
I have a slightly different take on this: if you don't get on board early, version 2 comes out with no instruction book - and from then on it's assumed you know what you are doing. Then a secondary industry forms providing instruction books to cover the gap.
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
As Nicolemr says, it all depends on what you mean by "progress". I remember someone commenting once that it was amazing how, just at the moment when everyone started carrying a portable video camera everywhere with them, aliens stopped visiting Earth and police suddenly started engaging in brutality. I find it hard to imagine that the U.S. would be having even the half-hearted conversation it's been having on police brutality if the large segment of the population that doesn't have to deal with it on a frequent basis hadn't been confronted with repeated video examples of the sort of thing they'd previously assumed didn't happen in their country. That may not count as "progress" in HCH's estimation, but from mine it's at least a step in the right direction that would have been impossible without technological innovation.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
'Progress' has little to do with it. This happens with anything new that suddenly arrives in your life. A coffee bar, for instance. Suddenly you can get skinny vanilla latte, no foam, venti. The first week it is a novelty. By the end of the month it is a habit. Next month if it should vanish you will feel a sense of outrage. How dare they take away a necessity in your life? And yet, last January, you did not have this necessity and you did not miss it.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
Bicycles, tea, clocks, radio, handkerchiefs, powdered wigs, silhouettes, gramophones these were all must have items at some point, I think I read that there is a strong suspicion that some Neolithic tools were made for display, or trade or burial rather than for using.
Very human. Mimetic desire, Girard would say.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
The OP vaguely reminds me of my late FiL who felt that booking hotels in advance via the internet - instead, say, of trailing your suitcase through the streets near the Station in hopes of chancing on one - somehow weakened the moral fibre. Things shouldn't be that easy.
Of the many gewgaws with which consumer capitalism seeks to bedazzle us, some are toys to take our money or divert us rising up hanging the bankers from the lamp posts: but some, as has been pointed out, become tools of social change and people empowerment.
If an innovation meets a hitherto unarticulated need, then it will spread unstoppably. You might query those needs, but they are evident, and can't be dismissed by saying (some) people shouldn't, or shouldn't be allowed, to have them.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Automobiles. They have changed everything. Our entire civilization appears to be build around them.
Repeated use water bottles.
Yoga related paraphernalia. Clothes, mats.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
I have been intrigued by the cost of so many subscriptions we didn't used to have. With lots of public phones you didn't need to pay $40 to $100 a month for life just to be able to call someone for a ride if you got stranded,and a landline was cheap. TV was free (in USA) after you paid for the box, ours lasted about 20 years, now you pay 50 to 100+ per month for TV. Internet is costing me over $50 a month for rather basic service (several friends on tight budgets have decided to stop having internet).
(Plus you need new computers every few years, the old ones can't use the new software needed to get on line.)
That's a lot of monthly expense. Figure a low to middle $200 a month (some are paying double that for phone plus TV, and many also add subscriptions to radio and movie channels etc) - times 12 months per year is over 2000 a year. Times 30 to 50 years; if instead you put that subscription money into savings at an average return on investment your retirement would be paid for.
Our parents/grandparents weren't paying all these lifetime costs, maybe that's why they were more able to save for retirement?
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
I think you're being ripped off. I can get broadcast TV for the licence cost only, my mobile is PAYG and I end up paying about a tenner every 6 months or so. Internet and landline phone are more pricey here because of the remoteness but I still get unmetered phone and Internet for less than £40 a month. Old computers can still connect to the Internet, though you might need to run a Linux distribution if you want to be able to access all websites. Nonetheless you can get a modern chrome book or similar brand new for just over £100. These are not large expenses. I suspect that the cost of stamps in the past would be almost the same as the cost of Internet today, for much less utility.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
Bicycles ... were ... must have items at some point
Still are, hatless. Still are.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I have been intrigued by the cost of so many subscriptions we didn't used to have. With lots of public phones you didn't need to pay $40 to $100 a month for life
[Yorkshire]Ow Much?!?[/Yorkshire]
My contract's £7.50 a month. What's that - about $10 in Colonies Currency?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Speaking about local area conditions, I know several technical people who have set up businesses helping the older generation with their computers, smart phones, tablets etc, both in their own homes and at meetings. There is a great need for such help.
I do send protest e-mails or make phone calls though if I hear of yet another thing, on the radio for instance, which assumes that everyone has internet access and implies that such and such a service will soon no longer be available without it.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
Back in 2007, Oliver James pointed out in Affluenza that people were in general getting to be much, much better off than their grandparents in material terms.* These days pretty much everyone has things like (for example) telephones, televisions and washing machines, which were reserved for the rich in the past. Nonetheless the citizen of 2007 was statistically far more likely to be suffering from depression and anxiety than the citizen of 1947. The “must-have” stuff may have its uses, but it isn’t making us happy.
* I think the date is important because it was prior to the crisis, when people were expecting to carry on getting richer and acquiring more stuff. I’d be interested to hear his take now.
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
It seems to me that in modern times we have a recurring phenomenon in which:
(a) someone invents a new gadget or hobby, useful or entertaining;
(b) it becomes popular, so "everyone has to have it";
(c) society adjusts so it is expected that everyone has one; and
(d) it is then essentially mandatory.
I think there's a step missing here, though it might hinge on how one interprets the word 'essentially' in point (d). That step, which would fall between (c) and (d) is the removal of previous means to accomplish the same end.
To give an example, it used to be the case that to apply for a job you could go straight to the company concerned and submit a CV with a covering letter. But now very few advertise jobs directly and your only option is to go through a recruitment consultant. They may look like human beings, but they are in fact parasites, of the same variety as used car salesmen, only in slightly better-fitting suits.
Mind you, it can be frustrating when the new means are taken away. With my old bank, when I wanted to set up a bond, I could do it all online with a few clicks. With my current bank, I have to write a cheque to myself, along with some reference numbers on the back of it and then put in the post to the bank's head office for them to process. So a process that took 20 minutes now takes about 10 days to complete.
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
Nonetheless the citizen of 2007 was statistically far more likely to be suffering from depression and anxiety than the citizen of 1947.
Far more likely to be diagnosed with depression and anxiety, maybe. The average citizen of 1947 who suffered with such things would just be told to pull themselves together or thought of as a grumpy bugger/worrier.
Do not mistake increased awareness of a problem for increased incidence of that problem.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
First of all: technology, of itself, isn't riches. Yes, we have fridges, TVs and phones now, which would have been very expensive in the past. Even poor people have them. But if you know that you'll be struggling to pay the rent, your cheap shoes are falling apart, you can only afford the "bargain" items in the supermarket, and there's no chance of your going down to the pub later with your mates because you can't ask them to pay for you AGAIN, it's a bit of a slap in the face to be told that you're actually rich because grandma never had a mobile at your age. Particularly when grandma and grandad were able to afford to buy a three bedroom house on one income without either of them going to university.
It's meaningless to talk about riches in terms of things that used to be expensive but which are cheap now. Technology, travel, food and clothes have become relatively cheap. The cost of housing and education has skyrocketed, as has medical care in the US. Job security is low right now, adding to the lack of a sense of security. Incidentally, the reason why young people struggle to save has much more to do with the cost of housing and education than it does with subscriptions.
In terms of technology/foreign travel not making us happy - where is the expectation that it ever would? In the past, did a miserable person think that finally getting a television would make any difference? Later this spring, Mr Liopleurodon will be finally getting that VR headset he's been dreaming of since he was a kid and they were discussed on Tomorrow's World. I expect he'll have a great deal of fun with it. Will it make him a fundamentally happier person? Of course not. The things that make us happy really don't change all that much: good health (including: no screwy brain chemistry, physical pain or fatigue), connections with others, a sense of purpose, security and satisfaction with achievements. There's a reason why "the latest technology" doesn't appear on Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
I agree that we are talking about cheap technology and it is this which creates the novelty. Anyone remember the digital watch, or more to the point the cost of one when they first appeared?
For a while the have-nots had to put up with their old fashioned watches that went tick tick, but were in fact a miracle of miniature engineering. Then the market was flooded with digital watches, the price plummeted, and those who had bought them thinking they were a cut above the have-nots now felt rather foolish.
On the wider matter of the changes that easily available technology is creating in us? For better or for worse, we are currently embarked on a human experiment the outcome of which is not known. I am generally of the the opinion that no matter what people never really change all that much.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
when the hand-held calculators first came out (knights were bold, then) they were very expensive. My uncle raided his daughter's college fund and bought one, to the tune of $5k. My aunt was livid. And, depressingly, the technology became far cheaper, and you can now get calculators free if you start an account at the bank or go to the right sort of meeting.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sipech:
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
(a) someone invents a new gadget or hobby, useful or entertaining;
(b) it becomes popular, so "everyone has to have it";
(c) society adjusts so it is expected that everyone has one; and
(d) it is then essentially mandatory.
I think there's a step missing here, though it might hinge on how one interprets the word 'essentially' in point (d). That step, which would fall between (c) and (d) is the removal of previous means to accomplish the same end.
And the mandatory use of the new method raises new barriers for the poor.
A homeless acquaintance told me she was trying to apply for jobs but the computer at the library has a 1 hour maximum use, it's slow, the application process is long, she gets half way through an application when the computer notifies her that her time is up, the job application software has no way to save a partially completed application to resume later.
(I have used the computer at my library - it's real slow.)
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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OddJob
Shipmate
# 17591
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Posted
It is progress, but it requires individuals, society and organisations such as churches to devote more resources to maintaining a standard deemed acceptable. ‘Standards inflation’ is the term I’ve often used to describe the phenomenon.
Church ‘customers’ nowadays wouldn’t tolerate draughty meeting rooms, chipped cups 70% filled with orange cordial or 10 year old rusty minibuses, in the way they would a generation ago.
Expectations of quick, properly considered communication are far higher, both in business and personal life.
Legislation can also inflate standards in almost any area of life we care to think about.
Posts: 97 | From: West Midlands | Registered: Mar 2013
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by OddJob:
‘Standards inflation’ is the term I’ve often used
Good term.
I remember when we allowed two erasers per typed page. Word processing makes corrections easier, so the standard quickly became perfection, which means more paper is used to complete the same job, since an error means reprint, not just erase and ink in the change.
And kids birthday parties don't seem to be simple games like pin the tail on the donkey these days.
All aspects of life have standards inflation - not all, home cooked means have lowered standards in many places.
[ 10. April 2016, 23:19: Message edited by: Belle Ringer ]
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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St Deird
Shipmate
# 7631
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sipech:
I think there's a step missing here, though it might hinge on how one interprets the word 'essentially' in point (d). That step, which would fall between (c) and (d) is the removal of previous means to accomplish the same end.
To give an example, it used to be the case that to apply for a job you could go straight to the company concerned and submit a CV with a covering letter. But now very few advertise jobs directly and your only option is to go through a recruitment consultant. They may look like human beings, but they are in fact parasites, of the same variety as used car salesmen, only in slightly better-fitting suits.
Mind you, it can be frustrating when the new means are taken away. With my old bank, when I wanted to set up a bond, I could do it all online with a few clicks. With my current bank, I have to write a cheque to myself, along with some reference numbers on the back of it and then put in the post to the bank's head office for them to process. So a process that took 20 minutes now takes about 10 days to complete.
I applied for some post-grad study a few years ago - on paper. The university was assuming that no-one really applied on paper anymore, but they hadn't taken away the option yet.
When I was offered a place, I was asked to accept on a site I'd never been to, using an ID number I hadn't been given, or "alternatively, you can reply to this email". So I replied to the email, and received a very puzzled reply from someone who informed me that I needed to go to the site and use my ID number. What ID number, I persisted. The one I'd been given when I applied online...
In the end, it took me over six hours of phone conversations before they were able to figure out a way for me to accept my place without having applied online - even though I'd used a system that they'd set up and never removed. Thoroughly exasperating.
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They're not hobbies; they're a robust post-apocalyptic skill-set.
Posts: 319 | From: the other side of nowhere | Registered: Jun 2004
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St Deird:
I applied for some post-grad study a few years ago - on paper. The university was assuming that no-one really applied on paper anymore, but they hadn't taken away the option yet.
I applied for a job on paper a few years ago. I was interviewed, offered the job, and asked to apply through the website in order to keep their paperwork straight. So I did a copy/paste into the boxes on the web form, and heard nothing. A couple of weeks later, I called and asked how the paperwork was progressing, and was told "we can't find your application". So I went in, handed them another paper copy of everything, and asked if they needed anything else. Apparently not (and I still have the job!)
I'm still not quite sure what function the web form was serving here.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
First of all: technology, of itself, isn't riches. Yes, we have fridges, TVs and phones now, which would have been very expensive in the past. Even poor people have them. But if you know that you'll be struggling to pay the rent, your cheap shoes are falling apart, you can only afford the "bargain" items in the supermarket, and there's no chance of your going down to the pub later with your mates because you can't ask them to pay for you AGAIN, it's a bit of a slap in the face to be told that you're actually rich because grandma never had a mobile at your age. Particularly when grandma and grandad were able to afford to buy a three bedroom house on one income without either of them going to university.
It's meaningless to talk about riches in terms of things that used to be expensive but which are cheap now. Technology, travel, food and clothes have become relatively cheap. The cost of housing and education has skyrocketed, as has medical care in the US. Job security is low right now, adding to the lack of a sense of security. Incidentally, the reason why young people struggle to save has much more to do with the cost of housing and education than it does with subscriptions.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) I was going to say just this, but I see there is no need...
[ 11. April 2016, 09:54: Message edited by: anoesis ]
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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Stercus Tauri
Shipmate
# 16668
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Posted
In the bank the other day there was a long queue, but only two tellers working. A nice lady with a big smile was wandering around asking people if they were having a nice day and offering to help them use the new ATM outside (the kind that has been used in the UK for years). I explained that their new machine wasn't capable of handling my simple transaction, but didn't point out that the queue would have been a lot shorter if she had been behind the counter getting work done the old fashioned way.
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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)
Posts: 905 | From: On the traditional lands of the Six Nations. | Registered: Sep 2011
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
And kids birthday parties don't seem to be simple games like pin the tail on the donkey these days.
Most kids' birthday parties are not held in the home of the birthday child. They are held in restaurants or in museums.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Many homes aren't big enough for parties with more than half a dozen guests. If the weather was fine we could have managed in the house using the garden, but there's no way my flat is big enough. Most of the parties I've taken the children to recently have been in rented halls (the most recent being the church hall), there was one a couple of years ago at the local Pizza Hut. I don't know anyone who has organised a party at a museum (I'm not even sure the reasonably local museums would have facilities for a party - other than to offer a group discount to actually go to the museum, and possibly arrange a guided tour just for that group). So, IME childrens' parties are either a) small and at home, b) large and in a basic hall or c) in a restaurant - in approximately that order. My children haven't really had parties - last week I happened to be home for my daughters 7th and so took my two for dinner, just the three of us, at a restaurant of her choice; that was the extent of her 'party'.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
I agree that we are talking about cheap technology and it is this which creates the novelty. Anyone remember the digital watch, or more to the point the cost of one when they first appeared?
For a while the have-nots had to put up with their old fashioned watches that went tick tick, but were in fact a miracle of miniature engineering. Then the market was flooded with digital watches, the price plummeted, and those who had bought them thinking they were a cut above the have-nots now felt rather foolish.
The rich have gone back to expensive mechanical watches.
There's lots of things I like as progress;
Books for example. Of course the undeserving poor are reading novels instead of works of moral instruction.
![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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St Deird
Shipmate
# 7631
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Many homes aren't big enough for parties with more than half a dozen guests. If the weather was fine we could have managed in the house using the garden, but there's no way my flat is big enough. Most of the parties I've taken the children to recently have been in rented halls (the most recent being the church hall), there was one a couple of years ago at the local Pizza Hut. I don't know anyone who has organised a party at a museum (I'm not even sure the reasonably local museums would have facilities for a party - other than to offer a group discount to actually go to the museum, and possibly arrange a guided tour just for that group). So, IME childrens' parties are either a) small and at home, b) large and in a basic hall or c) in a restaurant - in approximately that order. My children haven't really had parties - last week I happened to be home for my daughters 7th and so took my two for dinner, just the three of us, at a restaurant of her choice; that was the extent of her 'party'.
Do kids NEED more than half a dozen guests at a birthday party?
Anything over that seems like a recipe for exponential chaos and not much more fun.
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They're not hobbies; they're a robust post-apocalyptic skill-set.
Posts: 319 | From: the other side of nowhere | Registered: Jun 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
And kids birthday parties don't seem to be simple games like pin the tail on the donkey these days.
Most kids' birthday parties are not held in the home of the birthday child. They are held in restaurants or in museums.
Moo
Source?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St Deird:
Do kids NEED more than half a dozen guests at a birthday party?
No, they don't need that many. But, just like the inflationary cycle in the OP once someone invites most of their class and friends from other activities (plus siblings) to their party then it becomes expected that other parents do the same. Before long it becomes the norm to have a party with 30 kids, or not to have a party at all.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
And kids birthday parties don't seem to be simple games like pin the tail on the donkey these days.
Most kids' birthday parties are not held in the home of the birthday child. They are held in restaurants or in museums.
Hmmmm...I would think that most families can't afford that, unless they go to a museum on a free day.
When I was a kid, an occasional birthday party would be at the movies, or a roller-skating rink, or the kind of ice cream place that had special, gigantic, group sundaes for parties. But that was rare.
(And no, the dinosaurs weren't still roaming the Earth back then...well, not many, anyway...mostly the occasional stegasaurus and plesiosaur.)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St Deird:
Do kids NEED more than half a dozen guests at a birthday party?
Anything over that seems like a recipe for exponential chaos and not much more fun.
I had 16 at my 6th birthday, and that was over a quarter century ago. I think it generally gets fewer as children get older. I am fortunate in having a summer birthday, which tends to permit the use of the garden. I also get the strong impression that my parents rather enjoyed planning birthday parties, including managing to source black balloons for a pirate party.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
In this neighborhood it's all about the one-up-manship. Which is expensive, and also why museums, etc. and even places like the Humane Society (!) are racking their brains to find ways to present themselves as party venues.
Having little money and less desire to play the game, I got a bunch of water balloons and handed them out to the munchkins to throw at each other in the backyard. Oddly enough, it was a VERY popular party.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
And kids birthday parties don't seem to be simple games like pin the tail on the donkey these days.
Most kids' birthday parties are not held in the home of the birthday child. They are held in restaurants or in museums.
Moo
Source?
When I was living in New Hampshire, the Museum of Science in Boston would have children's parties after hours. I suspect it cost the birthday child's parents a bundle.
There is a museum in Washington run by the construction industry. My daughter takes her boys there frequently. She entered a drawing for a free child's birthday party and won. My grandsons and their guests had a wonderful time.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Humble Servant
Shipmate
# 18391
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
When I was a kid, an occasional birthday party would be at the movies, or a roller-skating rink, or the kind of ice cream place that had special, gigantic, group sundaes for parties. But that was rare.
(And no, the dinosaurs weren't still roaming the Earth back then...well, not many, anyway...mostly the occasional stegasaurus and plesiosaur.)
Round our way, home parties are rare between ages 5 and about 13. It's mostly bowling, karting, laser-tag, cinema etc. Then they get into minecraft parties at home. Bring a laptop and a sleeping bag. For me, and I suspect many others, the main reason is we don't know how to play with our children in that age range. And no, I can't afford it!
Posts: 241 | Registered: Apr 2015
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
And kids birthday parties don't seem to be simple games like pin the tail on the donkey these days.
Most kids' birthday parties are not held in the home of the birthday child. They are held in restaurants or in museums.
Moo
Source?
When I was living in New Hampshire, the Museum of Science in Boston would have children's parties after hours. I suspect it cost the birthday child's parents a bundle.
There is a museum in Washington run by the construction industry. My daughter takes her boys there frequently. She entered a drawing for a free child's birthday party and won. My grandsons and their guests had a wonderful time.
Moo
This doesn't support "most."
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
The reason for this is that many people do not live in a space large enough to host a large children's party. Even if you have a big yard, if the birthday happens to fall in the winter months you can't use it. There is also pressure, when the children are young and the class size is small, to not leave anybody out. One can sometimes make a decree 'we're only inviting the boys, Billy' or 'it's going to be a Barbie tea party so we're only inviting Susie's girl classmates' but that still often leaves you entertaining a dozen lively boys or girls. Under those circumstances the local Pizza Hut sounds marvelous.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Brenda Clough: Even if you have a big yard, if the birthday happens to fall in the winter months you can't use it.
Dutch children are made of sterner material.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
all children are made of sterner stuff. It's usually the parents that decide that the yard isn't suitable - what will the other parents say if their child got a cold (which s/he would have probably got anyway), or their party dress muddy?
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
There's a reason why "the latest technology" doesn't appear on Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
For sure. But just try suggesting that the poor should spend what money they have on the needs Maslow wrote about rather than "the latest technology" and see what reaction you get...
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
And there is always one child whose parent insists that little Ludmilla may not be exposed to wasps/get her good shoes muddy/is just recovering from a disease/is scheduled to have a procedure tomorrow and therefore could we not have a snowball fight?
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
I'm wondering about where things like the (relatively) recently developed HPV vaccine fall in this analysis. Where their parents were able to get by with vaccinations for things like polio and measles, today's kids are "coddled" by vaccines to prevent cancers later in life. We've already reached (or are close to) HCH's stage (c), where it's expected.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
And kids birthday parties don't seem to be simple games like pin the tail on the donkey these days.
Most kids' birthday parties are not held in the home of the birthday child. They are held in restaurants or in museums.
Moo
Source?
When I was living in New Hampshire, the Museum of Science in Boston would have children's parties after hours. I suspect it cost the birthday child's parents a bundle.
There is a museum in Washington run by the construction industry. My daughter takes her boys there frequently. She entered a drawing for a free child's birthday party and won. My grandsons and their guests had a wonderful time.
Moo
This doesn't support "most."
I assumed you were questioning the museum part. Many people on this thread have talked about having parties in restaurants. Far fewer have talked about having parties at home.
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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St Deird
Shipmate
# 7631
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
This doesn't support "most."
I assumed you were questioning the museum part. Many people on this thread have talked about having parties in restaurants. Far fewer have talked about having parties at home.
My five nephews have had every birthday party at home, for the record. Just like my sisters and I did when we were little.
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They're not hobbies; they're a robust post-apocalyptic skill-set.
Posts: 319 | From: the other side of nowhere | Registered: Jun 2004
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Parties at restaurants are public, and if they're childrens parties very noticeable. So, if you aren't regularly taking your children to parties I can see how you might think that parties in restaurants are very common.
As I said, IME, kids parties are almost always in some hired room (a function room at a hotel/pub, church hall, room at a sports centre or similar), especially for younger children as these provide plenty of space for running around. But, you will probably not know these parties are happening unless you're taking your own kids (or grandkids) to the party.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
Our local Microsoft Store used to host birthday parties (letting the kids try out all the games and gadgets -- obviously with the idea the kids would then beg their parents to buy them). Apparently they've stopped offering them.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
There's a reason why "the latest technology" doesn't appear on Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
For sure. But just try suggesting that the poor should spend what money they have on the needs Maslow wrote about rather than "the latest technology" and see what reaction you get...
I think the response you get might be coloured by the subtext that the poor are feckless ingrates who already get too much money. And actually, having the requisite technology to participate in society is part of belonging in the hierarchy. In a lot of social groups being able to communicate via Facebook and being able to discuss what's been on TV recently is a major contributor to belonging, to the extent that people in some of my social circles who don't use Facebook complain of feeling left out of things. I imagine that those members of church committees that rely on paper copies likewise feel cut out of conversations that largely happen via email. Incidentally, demands for the poor to better themselves often neglect that attempting to do so involves surrendering the 2nd and 3rd tier needs they've been able to satisfy in gambling that they'll be able to improve on them in the future.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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