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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Mantras, rosaries and repetition
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
As the Colin Urquhart and charismatic renewal thread has developed various strands, thought I'd unravel one of them out into a new thread.
I'd like to address some of the issues that Chris Stiles and Edward Green have raised, among others, about:
-Intelligibility in prayer and worship.
- The use of repetition - whether in repeated litanies, the Jesus Prayer, rosaries and Hail Mary's or repeated rhythmic 'phrases' characteristic of 'speaking in tongues.'
Chris raised the interesting point about happens when these sort of practices elide or undermine the role of language?
Or is that part of the point and value? To go beyond the purely 'cognitive' in a way that art, music, architecture and appreciation of the natural world can.
At what point does it clash with NT principles such as, 'Do not babble like pagans who think they will be heard because of their many words'?
How do we evaluate the efficacy or otherwise of these things?
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Praise the Lord for He is kind.
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
I'd thought repetition was rather like a mantra in meditation.*
It serves to quiet the mind, remain in the intended arena and allow a more receptive state.
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Hallellou, hallellou
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Fr Weber
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# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The 'babbling like the pagans' refers to the over-the-top phrases which were heaped up to address a benefactor in the Roman imperial client system.
Or to magical incantations.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Bibaculus
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# 18528
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Posted
Usually in Christianity the use of a 'mantra' is linked with an apophatic approach to prayer. We find God in void rather than image, in inattention rather than attention. The idea is that prayer should not be a one way conversation - me telling God what I think/want/think he should do. Rather it is an encounter with someone who can only be encountered in stillness (hesychasm). I am told that when two people are in love, it is common for them to sit together in silence, with a communication which transcends words. The 'mantra' is simply a device to occupy the mind so one can do that in prayer. It is not the prayer itself.
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Ok, that makes sense.
I was going to ask about the absence of meaning as it were - but that ties in with the spophatic thing.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
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http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
There were specific examples of bad practice that I personally was thinking of.
I know of a number of churches where the prayer meetings are expected to consist of a everyone in a room (and they'll get 50-100 people) all speaking in tongues, all at the same time for the entire hour or however long it is (which most people will do in a highly repetitious manner).
That's the kind of thing that makes me think that far from Babel being reversed, Babel is being created.
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
This always comes to my mind - Matt. 6 v5-7
quote:
When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. 6"But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you. 7"And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words.…
I hang out with some charismatic (and RC) blokes, and they're a nice bunch. But this set of verses always comes to mind, whether it's 'hail Mary' or 'shecameonahonda'.
This isn't to say 'hhmmppff, you're all doing it wrong'; instead I just wonder how we can overlook such a direct-sounding injunction from Jesus himself, because, well, neglecting this chunk of gospel seems pretty standard.
[ 14. April 2016, 21:04: Message edited by: mark_in_manchester ]
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Fr Weber
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# 13472
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Posted
The Hail Mary (and the rosary in general) is a meditative technique. As such, I'm in favor of it for those who find it useful (I don't particularly).
There are people who will pray the rosary in order to receive the associated indulgence. It seems to me that's the wrong reason, but I doubt they care.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The 'babbling like the pagans' refers to the over-the-top phrases which were heaped up to address a benefactor in the Roman imperial client system.
Or to magical incantations.
Or to prayers starting with, "Lord, we just...."
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
This always comes to my mind - Matt. 6 v5-7
quote:
When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. 6"But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you. 7"And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words.…
I hang out with some charismatic (and RC) blokes, and they're a nice bunch. But this set of verses always comes to mind, whether it's 'hail Mary' or 'shecameonahonda'.
This isn't to say 'hhmmppff, you're all doing it wrong'; instead I just wonder how we can overlook such a direct-sounding injunction from Jesus himself, because, well, neglecting this chunk of gospel seems pretty standard.
I think there are three things going on here.
1. Location
2. "Many words"
3. Meaningless repetition
1. Does this mean we shouldn't have prayers in church? Just at home in our wardrobes? Why or why not?
2. How many words are too many? Is there a cut-off point? 100 words? 1,000? 10,000? How will I know when I've used up my allotment? What if I'm not using many words in hopes of being heard, but for some other reason? Maybe I have a lot of friends I want to mention by name.
3. Is all repetition meaningless? Is repetition of a phrase (e.g. "Lord we just") bad? Or just repetition of whole sentences? Some people pray a form of the Jesus Prayer that consists simply of saying the name of Jesus repeatedly. Is that meaningless? Is it the repeating that makes it meaningless or the thing being repeated? If I repeat it twice is that meaningless, or do I have to repeat it 50 times?
I think this passage is used a lot to condemn the way other people pray, and the way(s) we pray are not judged by the same exacting standards
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
This always comes to my mind - Matt. 6 v5-7
quote:
When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. 6"But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you. 7"And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words.…
I hang out with some charismatic (and RC) blokes, and they're a nice bunch. But this set of verses always comes to mind, whether it's 'hail Mary' or 'shecameonahonda'.
This isn't to say 'hhmmppff, you're all doing it wrong'; instead I just wonder how we can overlook such a direct-sounding injunction from Jesus himself, because, well, neglecting this chunk of gospel seems pretty standard.
Mathew 18:20?
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Hallellou, hallellou
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Bibaculus
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# 18528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
The Hail Mary (and the rosary in general) is a meditative technique. As such, I'm in favor of it for those who find it useful (I don't particularly).
There are people who will pray the rosary in order to receive the associated indulgence. It seems to me that's the wrong reason, but I doubt they care.
I am not sure that the Rosary is meditative, not in the sense of contemplative meditation, anyhow. It is more classic discursive meditaion, lectio divina really. Far from being a way to empty the mind to make it a place where God can be encountered, it is an active consideration of events ('mysteries'). It has more in common with the Spiritual Exercises of Ignatius of Loyola.
Not that that makes it wrong or bad.
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Ok - these are all helpful observations ...
@Mark_in_Manchester, you've articulated what I was thinking, and whilst I agree with Mousethief that these verses can be used as a stick to beat people over the head with when we disapprove or disagree with their prayer-practices and so on ... I do think you're onto something.
As with other things in the Gospels, I'd imagine it's more about the principle than anything else. I can't imagine our Lord stipulating anything specific in this regard, 'You can repeat something seven times but no more ...'
Hence his response to the question about how many times we are forgive one another - 'up to seven times?' No, 'Seventy times seven ...' ie, a heck of a lot ...
So, I don't think it's an issue of how many prayers are repeated necessarily, but the motive and also that sense that we get when things 'go too far ...'
I mean, I know discomfort comes down to all sorts of factors - background, culture, upbringing, theological tradition etc etc - but there are points when any of us might feel, 'Uh-oh, I need to get outta here!'
I'd certainly feel that way these days in the kind of gathering Chris Stiles describes. Even as a card-carrying, tongue-waggling charismatic, I never felt comfortable with the mass tongues-fest thing ...
These days, I don't feel particularly comfortable with public 'tongues-speaking' at all. If I were anywhere it was taking place I might simply keep my reservations to myself, whilst wishing they'd keep it to themselves and do it at home when I wasn't around to hear them.
If people want to speak in tongues, that's their concern. I just don't want them doing it around me these days.
Likewise, at the more 'Catholic' end of things, whilst I can 'take' or stomach a lot more Catholic-y stuff than I used to - I'd have gone in with a pot of white-wash and a mallet at one time - there are certain practices there that make me feel jolly uncomfortable. I'm happy to accept most of that as a product of residual Puritanical squeamishness, but I think there's rather more to it ...
I know RCs themselves who feel uncomfortable with some devotional practices ...
But coming back to the repetition thing, to an extent I think we can rely on our own nous to determine when enough is enough. However, I agree with Mark_in_Manchester that the principles of the verses he cites are regularly violated or overlooked in all manner of church settings and traditions.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
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Adeodatus
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# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I think this passage is used a lot to condemn the way other people pray, and the way(s) we pray are not judged by the same exacting standards
This is the thing. Logs and motes, logs and motes....
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Yes, I agree with you both, Adeodatus and Mousethief ... however, the fact remains that however even-handed we try to be, we're always going to find things that 'grate' with us, concern us or go beyond our own particular comfort-zones, wherever we draw the line on those.
When does repetition become 'meaningless repetition'?
Is the distinction in the eye of the beholder?
A highly conservative evangelical would draw the line more tightly, perhaps, than a 'Broad Churchman', who would perhaps, in turn, whilst allowing greater elasticity, draw the reins in more tightly than an RC would or an Orthodoxen.
I once met an Anglican chaplain who'd twice visited Mount Athos. He told me that after the '43rd Kyrie Elieson' you began to long for a Reformation to break out ... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Conversely, of course, if one of the monks from Athos were to visit a 'standard' Protestant service or a full-on charismatic or Pentecostal one, they'd probably return to the peninsula muttering into their beard that the delinquent West had completely lost its bearings ...
I s'pose the thing I'm picking up from the answers to this thread, particularly from Bibliacus, is that it all comes down to the context and intention.
If the intention of a repetitive form of prayer - the Jesus Prayer, the rosary or whatever-else, is to still and calm the mind, then that sounds like a good plan ...
If, as in some charismatic circles, it becomes a way - albeit unconscious rather than deliberately orchestrated - to whip things up and stir people into a state of religious excitement - or, at the extremes, a form of self-hypnosis -- then clearly that goes beyond the pale. Or does it?
It strikes me that repetitive chorus-singing or tongues-speaking can undoubtedly become hypnotic and contribute to the creation of altered-states of consciousness when taken to an extreme - although in practice, few groups I know of take things that far ... most charismatic congregations don't 'zone-out' ... but they can lose inhibitions (which mightn't be a bad thing) and do things that they perhaps wouldn't ordinarily do in the cold light of day - such as chuck some money they can ill afford to give into the offering bucket or pledge themselves to pursue this, that or the other course of action in response to an emotional appeal.
Perhaps the same applies in the opposite direction - can persistent Hail Mary's or excessive use of the Jesus Prayer become hypnoptic?
Certain Reformed evangelical types are highly suspicious of both more 'Catholic' and more charismatic forms of worship for that reason. However, I do take some of their concerns with a pinch of salt. For instance, I once read an account of a visit by a highly Reformed evangelical to an Orthodox parish here in the UK where, he claimed, the dozen or so people present were 'hypnotised' by the chant and the incense ...
I've never seen anyone in an Orthodox service entering anything like a hypnotic state. Sure, when the whole thing 'clicks' as it were and the candle-light, chant, incense and iconography all combine to take you 'somewhere else' so to speak, there's never any sense that people have lost sight of the fact that they are participating in a formalised, ritualised form of liturgical drama ... nobody seems to 'zone-out' on it ...
Quite the opposite, in fact. It can be hard work. It can be heavy-going with a choir that's not up to the mark or people forgetting what they're supposed to be doing ...
But nevertheless ... it can take you 'outside of yourself' - not in a whoozy-whooshty way ... in the way that drama or art or music can in all sorts of ways.
Anyhow, coming back to my main point and question - where do we draw the line? Is it purely subjective? 'I like the Jesus Prayer but I don't approve of the Rosary?' 'I like repetitive chorus-singing but I don't like those repeated litanies at St Botolph's ...'
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
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http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Adeodatus
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# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Anyhow, coming back to my main point and question - where do we draw the line? Is it purely subjective? 'I like the Jesus Prayer but I don't approve of the Rosary?' 'I like repetitive chorus-singing but I don't like those repeated litanies at St Botolph's ...'
I wouldn't use the term "purely subjective" for something where I'm using a deal of thoughtful judgement. "Purely subjective" sounds too whimsical. (It's the same with art. "Art's very subjective, isn't it?" people say. No. It isn't.)
I'd start by asking what I'm actually doing. Am I repeating the Jesus Prayer? Well, everything I've read on the Jesus Prayer is emphatic that it's not merely a technique of relaxation or distraction - it's a prayer of intercession, repeated often in obedience to the scriptural instruction to "pray without ceasing" (or "at all times", or "constantly", or whatever. So although it's a repetition - and it's common to notch up hundreds of such repetitions - it's certainly not a vain one.
It's similar with the Rosary. The prayer is a bit longer, addressing Mary as "blessed", again as scripture says, but again quickly gets onto intercession - "pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death". It's a broader intercession than the usual form of the Jesus Prayer - "us", not "me" - and it asks for the prayers of a saint rather than going straight to the Boss himself, but it's intercession nevertheless.
I'd say there is nothing wrong with the frequent repetition of these general, wide-compassing intercessions. The needs of the world, and my own spiritual needs, are present at every moment of every day. But the bottom line, as with so many things, is, if you have qualms, then don't.
And if you want something that just stills and empties your mind, then maybe you can keep God out of it and opt for something a little more neutral, like "Weebles wobble but they don't fall down" - repeated as a low-pitched chant, it can sound very profound.
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Sure, I agree with all of that, Adeodatus - I don't think we're on different pages particularly.
Coming back to the 'tongues' issue, is it more beneficial, efficacious and so on to use the Jesus Prayer or the Rosary, say - which have a cognitive and intercessory quality as you point out - than it is to repeat 'sondera-hondera-gundera shecameonahonda, avebacardi, calorgasheater ...' or the customary unintelligible babbling that constitutes 'tongues' in contemporary charismatic contexts?
How is 'shondera-hondera-gondera' (note the subtle changes in development and syntax ... ) any more efficacious and 'edifying' - which tongues-speakers believe their 'gift' to be - than repeating, 'Weebles wobble but they don't fall down?'
Or 'Eeny meenie, miney mo ...' or whatever else might be repeated as some kind of rhythmic utterance?
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Adeodatus
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# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
How is 'shondera-hondera-gondera' (note the subtle changes in development and syntax ... ) any more efficacious and 'edifying' - which tongues-speakers believe their 'gift' to be - than repeating, 'Weebles wobble but they don't fall down?'
Or 'Eeny meenie, miney mo ...' or whatever else might be repeated as some kind of rhythmic utterance?
Search me. I'm just one of those old-fashioned Bible-believin' Christians who thinks "tongues" need interpreting, unless they're just going to be a sort of performance art like pure music (and I've no particular objection to that).
A very earnest Christian once gave me a "word" in tongues. My response was, "I have no idea what you just said." She looked horrified and confused - I had clearly Broken The Rules.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Sure. But even if there is an apparent 'interpretation' how do we actual know whether it is a 'real' one or not?
I only once 'interpreted' a 'tongue'. I have absolutely no idea whether it was an 'interpretation' or not - more likely to have been some spiritual sounding platitudes.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Gee D
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# 13815
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Posted
Of course, "vain" in English has at least 2 meanings. The posts I've read here use the meaning of "being boastfully over-proud". It can also mean "without hope of success". Those who pray to false gods, Baal and so forth, pray in vain as there is no hope that their prayers will be heard, let alone receive a response. I have always read the passage as carrying both meanings - can those who have Greek and/or Hebrew comment on this?
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
I don't know Greek or Hebrew and I can't speak for anyone else, but I've been thinking of 'vain' in your second sense, rather than in the first - ie 'vanity, vanity, all is vanity' - the sense that some forms of repetition can end up meaningless and futile.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Gee D
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# 13815
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Posted
That's a variation on my thought which was that a prayer to a stone idol could not reasonably be expected to get much of a result.
The man ostentatiously praying is of course in the first sense.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
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Posted
Gamaliel: quote:
'hypnotised' by the chant and the incense
Is there any truth in what I read about hebrew words for incense being related to ancient near east words for cannabis?
Or is it an urban myth?
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Can't see why they shouldn't be related ... but do the ingredients for incense have narcotic properties?
The Rastafarians seem to equate some OT herbal references to 'weed' and 'ganja' ...
I suppose it depends on what you put in the thurible.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
Is there any truth in what I read about hebrew words for incense being related to ancient near east words for cannabis?
Or is it an urban myth?
Unclear. Hemp is known in the ANE from around 2000BC onwards, the difficulty comes with trying to attribute an equivalency between some plant in the bible and
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
If I recall the Hebrew for "in vain" (cf. Ecclesantes) is "l'shuv" or "toward nothing(ness)". I was told that "shuv" was slang for "magic" because it was baseless and couldn't produce results. So there is potentially that kind of shading of meaning going on as well.
Incidentally I also was taught that when in the OT someone is commanded to take a NEW rope, a NEW pot, etc., the reason was that a new one hadn't been used for magic. The potential reason for this is twofold, and I can't remember what Dr. Mallon said about it. Either because there's no stain of evil attaching to it, or because the person using the rope, pot, etc., won't be tempted to hope for, or attribute any happenings to, magic (as opposed to divine action). Or both.
[ 17. April 2016, 20:19: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Can't see why they shouldn't be related ... but do the ingredients for incense have narcotic properties?
Well.......
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Gee D
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# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
If I recall the Hebrew for "in vain" (cf. Ecclesantes) is "l'shuv" or "toward nothing(ness)". I was told that "shuv" was slang for "magic" because it was baseless and couldn't produce results. So there is potentially that kind of shading of meaning going on as well.
Thanks. Yes, that has part of my second meaning of vain, and then some more. Not just the ostentatious prayer on the street corner, the prayer otherwise one which could be said in the Temple.
[ 17. April 2016, 22:12: Message edited by: Gee D ]
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Erroneous Monk
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# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
And if you want something that just stills and empties your mind, then maybe you can keep God out of it and opt for something a little more neutral, like "Weebles wobble but they don't fall down" - repeated as a low-pitched chant, it can sound very profound.
Or "Beer. Sex. Chips. Gravy."
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Fr Weber
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# 13472
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Posted
Gamaliel, yes--I for one will state that the distinction is completely in the eye of the beholder.
The evangelical who is horrified by the Rosary's "meaningless repetitions" is the same man who will happily Father-Weejus for ten minutes straight, or enjoy the repeats of a 7-11 chorus that makes one long for the brevity of Psalm 78.
I'm sure there's an irregular verb to be teased out of all this...
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Belle Ringer
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# 13379
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Posted
Direct your attention to God and pray sincerely. All the rest is details which legitimately vary person to person and by situation.
Criticizing someone else's way is inappropriate, we can't know their heart and heart is the only thing that matters.
Comments like these from Jesus are not inviting us to judge and criticize others. If you don't connect through that style, don't go to that church.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
Gamaliel - you didn't pick up on EM's suggested tune.
NSFW, as if I needed to mention it.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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Hilda of Whitby
Shipmate
# 7341
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Direct your attention to God and pray sincerely. All the rest is details which legitimately vary person to person and by situation.
Criticizing someone else's way is inappropriate, we can't know their heart and heart is the only thing that matters.
Comments like these from Jesus are not inviting us to judge and criticize others. If you don't connect through that style, don't go to that church.
Excellent point. Some of the things I read on this thread made me quite uncomfortable.
If the following is not germane, my apologies, but ...
I have read more than one account of people with severe dementia still being able to recite the Lord's Prayer. I think that probably comes from having repeated it and repeated it over a lifetime so that the prayer has almost become part of their DNA. I call that beautiful. One can cavil that these people don't know what they are saying anymore ... but (a) we don't really know this and (b) God does.
Monks and nuns in monasteries recite the 150 psalms over and over again and it is very hard for me to see that as "vain".
Maybe one of the purposes of the repetitions is to get the prayers lodged in our memory so that phrases will pop up almost from the subconscious level; as if to give us a nudge--"think about this."
I just finished a book by Kathleen Norris, who spent quite a bit of time in Benedictine monasteries. She lived in South Dakota, where winters are extremely cold. She was out in the cold, walking, when suddenly words from the Benedicite bubbled up, words that she chanted many times:
"O ye Dews and Frosts, bless ye the Lord : praise him, and magnify him for ever.
O ye Frost and Cold, bless ye the Lord : praise him, and magnify him for ever.
O ye Ice and Snow, bless ye the Lord : praise him, and magnify him for ever."
This turned a walk on a bitterly cold day into an opportunity for praise. That might not have happened had she not had the words ingrained in her through repetition.
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"Born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad."
Posts: 412 | From: Nickel City | Registered: Jun 2004
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Sure, I don't know why anything on this thread should cause discomfort ... we're only exploring the issues, not stating that this, that or the other form of prayer is 'invalid' necessarily ...
Sharing a few honest doubts or concerns about certain practices doesn't strike me as in any way wrong or threatening.
On the dementia thing, yes, for sure. My mother-in-law is in early stage dementia and it's interesting that although she's been quite charismatic in the past - remaining an Anglican but with half an eye on the Penties - she now feels far more comfortable with a set pattern and with something that more or less approximates to the Prayer Book.
She knows where she is with that in the way that she doesn't know where she is with either Powerpoint slides and worship choruses on the one hand or with bells and smells on the other ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Sharing a few honest doubts or concerns about certain practices doesn't strike me as in any way wrong or threatening.
That depends on whether the doubts or concerns are about one's own practices or other people's.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Pretty near anything can be prayer I think. If it moves toward the divine.
Ring the bells that still can ring.
Forget your perfect offering.
There is a crack, a crack in everything.
That’s how the light gets in.
(so says Leonard Cohen)
Can bell ringing, repetitive ding, ding, ding, be prayer?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Fair do's Moo but there must be other criteria, not simply a subjective, 'Well, it works for them/me so it must be ok ...'
But assessing whether a practice is neutral, helpful, harmful or helpless is always going to be tricky unless the benefits or the deletorious effects - if there are any - are obvious.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
People should pray as they can, not as they can't. In other words in the way they find most helpful. Some people like to talk to God as they would to a friend. Others find lectio divina helps them to get closer to God. Some can use mantras or single words to quiet the mind. Personally, though I pray with words in moments of crisis, it best suits my apophatic appreciation of God to simply hold myself in His presence. In all of these, the mind is liable to wander, but we just bring it back when we notice. Whatever gets you through the night!
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Now that's a really interesting point. You speak of coming from an apophatic viewpoint--my natural mode of worship is kataphatic, and so for me, it's all about the fullness. Which is why both repetitive and non-repetitive prayers are part of my life (yes, I know and pay attention to what the hell I'm saying, folks) and I suspect under some circumstances even the bell ringing could be a kind of prayer--for me, that is. Because of the kataphatic thing.
But it seems to me that apophatic approaches are what's really in right now, and there are possibly some people who are so poorly informed that they believe there is no other legitimate approach. Which in some cases might be driving the whole anti-"set words" concern.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'm not sure it's 'in' but I suspect there is something of a reaction to the 'wordiness' of much Protestant prayer and worship.
The issue for me isn't so much repetition - or even the use of wordless forms of communication, such as bells - or smells even, come to that ... but issues of comprehensibility - 'language understanded of the people' and all that ...
That doesn't mean I wouldn't allow space for the unspoken, for the visual, for symbolism and so on - bring it on, I say.
It's another of these both/and not either/or things.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Which in some cases might be driving the whole anti-"set words" concern.
I didn't want to imply that I'm anti words in terms of liturgy. Quite the opposite. And the intercessions form a very important part of liturgy. I'm just very apophatic in my private prayer.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Can someone paint a picture for me of what "apophatic" corporate worship would look like?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
I'd like to out myself as a mutterer. I mutter the Jesus Prayer a bit.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Can someone paint a picture for me of what "apophatic" corporate worship would look like?
I'd also want to understand what "apophatic" private worship would look like. The online dictionary definition of apophatic is:
quote:
...knowledge, understanding, or description of God through negative statements about qualities and characteristics that God does not possess, as "God is not confined by space or time.".
So one can begin devotions with "God who is unknowable, not unkind, not mortal, who doesn't have to listen to me but might decide to, whom I might be getting all wrong because he is totally beyond understanding...."
Though, come to think of it, my sig might be a nice, snappy, five-second apophatic private devotion.
[ 27. April 2016, 06:20: Message edited by: Lyda*Rose ]
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
Cool thread, Gam. Repetition has clear effects, though those effects vary depending on the person and circumstance. For example, repetition is essential in learning a new language. In the realm of music and psychology it has been demonstrated that repetitious music decreases productivity and decreases creative and problem-solving abilities (short term). What I would call 'traditional' liturgies (high candle C of E, pre-Vatican II RC and others, of course), usually break things up, so that there is seldom, if ever, a long repetitious activity. In order to start asking questions about repetition you need to consider periodicity—which is, how frequent is the repetition. You'll heard the word 'Hosannah/Osanna' dozens of times in a Mozart mass setting, but never all in quick succession and never in the same way (could be different key, rhythm, texture, etc.). When I was researching repetition in evangelical churches you would regularly get anywhere from 14 (usually the lowest number) to 30 or more repetitions of the same phrase with very short periods (anything from one to four bars). In the latter case the psychological effects were clearer (this is not controversial, I'm merely reporting it). By far the largest body of work on music and repetition relates to advertising. Interestingly, because of the short length of most adverts, the high rates of repetition with the advert could have the opposite effect. In other words, a small percentage 'switched off'. The more successful models (very broadly) tend to be those with high rates of repetition (though not *only* repetition, such as in 'we buy any car') in short periods, but with repeated hearings/viewings. The success of this approach was picked up on long ago by script writers for soap operas, where the characters are shallow and/or with few, but clear, character traits. You might learn very little about Kevin if you watch only one episode of Whateverthehellitis, but his two or three traits will become clearer to you with more viewings; but without adding depth.
I argue that this commercial/advertising model is the basic framework for the Alpha course (certainly as I experienced it at HTB in London).
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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