Ship of Fools: Are you and I special or not?

Thread: Are you and I special or not? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

On the one side we have God seeing the little sparrow fall (link to hymn lyric, based on Luke 12:7), and we think we must be special and loved. On the other hand, I look out this spring and see the hundreds of thousands, if not millions of last autumn's white birch seeds littering my front garden, and consider that not one of them will grow into a tree. (Perhaps in a wild area, one or two wouldn't wash away, decompose or be eaten by said sparrows and grow into a tree.)

My mind today thinks that God gets the Big Picture, and the individual troubles, illnesses, deaths, sorrows etc are not attended to the way we would attend to them. I haven't fully developed thoughts on this, and I would be interested in discussing.

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

We would not attend to them, because our attention and time is finite. God has all the time there is. He could devote years to thinking about each one of those seeds.

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

Female cod lay maybe 4 million eggs. Of these a small percentage are fertilised, of those a small number become adult cod.

This seems to be the way in much of nature.

I'm not sure one can or should take lessons from nature.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

I rather expect God DOES know and care about those seeds just as intensely as he does about us--though perhaps with rather different aims.

With an infinite person, attention is not rationed. The word "special" loses its meaning for the best of all reasons--because all receive that same deep knowledge, attention, love.

To be sure, there are some things that differ between us and the seeds. The Incarnation would be number one. But that doesn't imply we're better than the rest of creation--if anything, the opposite. (And if some theologians are right, it was going to happen to some species, sin or no sin.)

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

No, we're not special. But we are loved.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

Yes you are special. So is everyone else.

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I rather expect God DOES know and care about those seeds just as intensely as he does about us--though perhaps with rather different aims.

It is this differential attention or attention with different aims. What is it? With birch trees or cod (good example Mr. Cheesy), it seems to be about species or type of being/creature. With humans we focus on ourselves as individuals, though I wonder about this a wee bit in light of the Enlightenment and the Reformation - the rise of individualism. Might God focus on the course of family history, tribal history, and a broader sweep of history, to the neglect of individuals? - the focus on individuals being our current cultural and historical bias. [/QB][/QUOTE]

Posted by Humble Servant (# 18391) on :

My garden was recently visited by a sparrowhawk, which chased all the smaller birds (mostly tits, no sparrows on that occasion) round the trees with the sole intention of killing and eating them. I didn't witness its success, but it must be a regular occurrence or the raptor would not be alive itself. Does He care more about the sparrow or the sparrowhawk? Or does he weep for each of them as they fall?

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Yes you are special. So is everyone else.

"Everybody is special" is just another way of saying nobody is.

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

That denies God's immanence.

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :

As God made seeds for food as well as for procreation, I don't think it a problem that most won't grow into trees. Their abundance is a gift, which is something to thank God for, to bring joy to us and to God.

Are the animals and birds that are eaten also a gift? I guess so, as we have given thanks to God for them too for thousands of years. Why would it be wrong for a sparrow hawk to eat birds, if we do?

Relationship with God means that God is involved in our worries, our illnesses, deaths and sorrows individually as well as collectively. We have a promise that they will come to an end, at the second coming of Christ. Meanwhile, it's for us to listen, say and do the best we can, and hold on to the hope of eternal life.

Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on :

My Dad, like a true British gentleman of a certain generation, loves his garden. In the interests of promoting biodiversity, he always puts out lots of bird food and gets an impressive array of feathered visitors, including quite a large number of sparrows.

Now and again, a sparrow hawk swoops down and snatches away one of the sparrows. Far from being excited about sighting a bird of prey in his garden, my Dad gets most ticked off about “his” sparrows becoming lunch. At this point, my mother points out that such is the way of nature. “I don’t care. Let him eat someone else’s sparrows.”

This has given me a new perspective on how God feels about a sparrow falling to the ground. There’s something quite touching about his attachment to a common little bird.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:

Now and again, a sparrow hawk swoops down and snatches away one of the sparrows. Far from being excited about sighting a bird of prey in his garden, my Dad gets most ticked off about “his” sparrows becoming lunch. At this point, my mother points out that such is the way of nature. “I don’t care. Let him eat someone else’s sparrows.”

Yes, as soon as something becomes 'ours' it becomes special to us.

'My' sparrows are a constant source of delight and pleasure.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
That denies God's immanence.

I believe that is a way of saying that love is organic and grows according to the number of people (and possibly other things) that need it and can give it. God is at the top of the tree (which He built).

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Yes you are special. So is everyone else.
"Everybody is special" is just another way of saying nobody is.

So a parent who loves all his/her kids equally doesn't love any of them.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Yes you are special. So is everyone else.
"Everybody is special" is just another way of saying nobody is.
So a parent who loves all his/her kids equally doesn't love any of them.

That parent doesn't have any special love for one of their kids that doesn't apply to the others.

As I said in my first post to this thread: we're not special, but we are loved.

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

A mortal parent's love for the kids may be flawed. Lord alone knows that if they get me up in the middle of the night my love for them substantially diminishes in the morning. But we may hope that God's love is not so flawed as ours, and so dependent upon outside factors.

Posted by Humble Servant (# 18391) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Lord alone knows that if they get me up in the middle of the night my love for them substantially diminishes in the morning.

I can understand that your patience with them will be substantially diminished. But your love?

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

I don't act very loving, and how is love shown except in action?

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
A mortal parent's love for the kids may be flawed. Lord alone knows that if they get me up in the middle of the night my love for them substantially diminishes in the morning. But we may hope that God's love is not so flawed as ours, and so dependent upon outside factors.

I don't know you but if you are a parent of young children I doubt your love diminishes. Your feeling of love, yes. But if your child were in sudden danger you'd be just as quick to risk your life to save theirs whether after a good night's sleep or a bad night.

Posted by Polly (# 1107) on :

Are we special?

Not sure if that is the right word but we are made in the image of God.

Whatever it means to unpack these 4 words includes an incredible sense of potential, a huge amount of awesomeness and the ability to love.

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