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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Orthodox Council Down the Pan?
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LawyerWannabe
Apprentice
# 14186
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Posted
Well, we are meant to be having a jolly get together on the 17th June to 26th June but the Ecumenical Patriarch has been getting plenty of cancelled RSVPs (so far Bulgaria, Antioch, Georgia and Serbia are staying away).
The Russians are having an emergency synod today to decide what they want to do.
At the rate this is going, it might just end up being a Greek get-together.
Father Andrew of OrthodoxEngland continues to imagine that the US government and the Freemasons are controlling the Ecumenical Patriarchate.
Personally, I was always a bit hesitant about this entire undertaking and I think more time was needed to clarify and improve the documents. I certainly don't like the voting mechanism they chose (one vote per Church and unanimity required) and would have preferred one vote per bishop but ah well...
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But, for my own part, it was Greek to me.
Posts: 14 | From: Birmingham | Registered: Oct 2008
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Bibaculus
Shipmate
# 18528
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Posted
I do think that a bit of a shame. The agenda had been watered down as it was, to stay off anything too controversial (ie anything Moscow wouldn't like). Frankly the behaviour of some orthodox hierarchs is less than edifying. In a sense, I have no dog in this fight and it is none of my business. But I think it is important for wider Christianity that Orthodoxy gets its act together and shows it can engage with the world as it is.
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A jumped up pantry boy who never knew his place
Posts: 257 | From: In bed. Mostly. When I can get away with it. | Registered: Dec 2015
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I've been hearing various perspectives on this from my Orthodox contacts, most of whom would favour postponement rather than cancellation.
What beats me is why those who've objected have left it so late - it's an obvious ploy to scupper things and queer Patriarch Bartholomew's pitch -particularly when plans for this Council have been in the offing for 50 years.
The Antiochians seem to have some sympathy with the Ecumenical Patriarch but want some resolution to a jurisdictional issue between Antioch and Jerusalem in Qatar.
They also seem concerned about the Ecumenical Patriarch's evident ecumenical leanings but less so, perhaps than some of the other jurisdictions who've pulled out.
I suspect, though, that things aren't neatly divided on jurisdictional lines.
There does seem to be something of a Slavs versus everyone else element in there to some extent - but I wouldn't want to overstate that.
I've heard that Metropolitan Kallistos Ware has been saying for some time that the Council has been over-hyped and is no big deal.
Whatever the case, it's certainly messy and unedifying.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
The 500 pound gorilla in the room, as far as the OCA is concerned, is the jurisdictional clusterfuck that is North America. And the EP certainly isn't going to cede any jurisdiction and lose its biggest cash cow, and the MP isn't going to back down because that would be to admit the EP can tell it what it can and cannot do, thus undermining its autocephaly. Who will untangle this gordian knot? Nobody because it's off the table.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Jurisdiction. That seems to be a biggy with some Othodox.
Not so physical in this instance but no less in tractable. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Bibaculus
Shipmate
# 18528
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Posted
I wonder if the Great & Holy Council, if it actually happens, will end in fisticuffs too?
It really is a bit of a disgrace.
Jurisdiction seems to be the big issue everywhere. The Patriarchate of Antioch recently erected an Archdiocese in the United Kingdom. I wish them all well, of course, but by what reasoning does the Patriarch of Antioch claim any jurisdiction over the British Isles?
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A jumped up pantry boy who never knew his place
Posts: 257 | From: In bed. Mostly. When I can get away with it. | Registered: Dec 2015
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
The Antiochians have had a Deanery here for some time now and have always been pressing for their own Bishop, rather than relying on the nearest Antiochian Orthodox Bishop in France.
It's a mystery to me why they didn't join the Greeks or the Russians back in the day when 10 Anglican clergy left the CofE and were accepted by the Antiochians. The story varies according to who you speak to. The Greeks and Russians seem to have thought that the Anglican clerics should have become lay people for a while rather than being fast-tracked over into the Orthodox ministry.
From what I can gather, Antioch has often been more accommodating towards Western converts than some of the other jurisdictions. Some suspect that Antioch had an eye for the main chance and seized the opportunity to extend its own operations in these islands ... although from what I can gather from the British clergy who were part of that initial group in the mid-1990s, they haven't had a great deal of input from the Antiochian bishops across the Channel.
Some were hoping they'd get a British bishop but I'm also told that this was never going to happen ... so they've got a Syrian chap and very nice he seems to be too, by all accounts - although I've not met him.
It's seen as a big deal by some of the Antiochians as it's the first time there's been an Orthodox Metropolitan based here, they say, who actually has an Archdiocese based on an 'actual' and proper location rather than a made-up one, as it were.
Metropolitan Anthony was given the title 'of Sourozh' which is an actual place, of course, but not one connected with these islands in any way.
As for dear old Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, he's 'of Thyatira and Great Britain.' Again, Thyatira is an actual place, of course, but it's just there in the title as a Greek location to hang it all on ...
It's been explained to me that he's more like a suffragen bishop than anything else.
I'm not sure what status Bishop Gregorios has as the leading Greek cleric here in the UK.
It's all very complicated and probably a microcosm of the situation Mousethief describes in the USA, where there are more Orthodox, of course, both cradle and convert.
I wouldn't at all be surprised if things weren't equally as messy in Australia, Canada, the Far East, Latin America, Everywhere Else in the World ...
In fairness, there is an emerging Pan-Orthodox initiative here in the UK but the various jurisdictions do overlap and tread on one another's toes.
In many ways, it reminds me of what happened with the various 'R1' and 'R2' networks and 'streams' back when the UK 'restorationist' new-church thing was at its height and differing 'apostolic teams' ended up competing with one another in the same towns or cities.
Same sort of thing but different churchmanship.
One clean shaven, the other hirsute.
From what I can gather, the Orthodox scene in the UK has always been rather eccentric. The late, lamented Fr Ephraim Lash was intriguing but something of an odd-ball. Dear old Metropolitan Kallistos is lovely and like some 1950s Oxford Don - but he's still regarded as too 'Anglican' by many of the Greeks ...
I don't know much about the Serbs and Romanians here, although you do come across a few of them in the Antiochian parishes.
And this is just the 'diaspora' and its periphery, we haven't really touched upon the issues in the Balkans, Russia, Greece and other traditonally Orthodox countries.
I've heard that the Athonite monks have largely come out against the Council - although even there, I'm told that there are some who are not unsympathetic to the EP.
I don't know what to make of it all, but I can't say I'm too surprised. As Shipmates know, I'm very much an Orthophile but I could happily bang their bearded heads together at times.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Bibaculus
Shipmate
# 18528
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Posted
Gamaliel
I am an Orthophile too, but find it hard to follow. I think even many Orthodox must find it hard to follow.
Kallistos Ware is Metropolitan of Diokleia. It is totally titular. Gregorios is 'of Thyateira and Great Britain'. Kallistos Ware and Ephrem Lash do represent the donnish Hellenophile group of converts. And Archimandrite Ephrem was quite eccentric, as you say. As is (in a different way) his brother, Prof Nicholas Lash, and his late uncle Dom Sebastian Moore.
As I understand it, the co-operation in the regional pan-Orthodox assemblies was mandated by the preparatory commission for the Great & Holy Council. How/if they work I do not know.
The frustrating thing is that I think Orthodoxy has something very valuable to contribute to the western Christian 'scene'. But they seem to prefer squabbles amongst themselves.
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A jumped up pantry boy who never knew his place
Posts: 257 | From: In bed. Mostly. When I can get away with it. | Registered: Dec 2015
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LawyerWannabe
Apprentice
# 14186
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Posted
Actually, the Greek Archdiocese of Great Britain and Thyatira (which is part of the Ecumenical Patriachate) is headed by Archbishop Gregory.
Metropolitan Kallistos (along with the three other bishops) are suffragans to the Archbishop.
Adding to the scenario, we also have the British branch of the Patriarchal Exarchate for Orthodox Parishes of Russian Tradition in Western Europe (which entered the UK following the unpleasantness involving former Bishop Basil (Osbourne) and the Patriarchate of Moscow). This one is also part of the Ecumenical Patriarchates.
The Antiochians, Russians, Serbians and Romanians are also present but only the first two have a bishop resident in the Isles.
Bulgaria has one priests but he falls under the Metropolis of Central and Western Europe based in Vienna (I think?).
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But, for my own part, it was Greek to me.
Posts: 14 | From: Birmingham | Registered: Oct 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Ok. I've attended two conferences of The Fellowship of St Alban & St Sergius and, by and large, like what I see there - some very eirenic Orthodox, Anglican and RC clergy for the most part.
I know two Antiochian parishes quite well and have visited some Greek and Russian parishes with British clergy.
My observations would be that some of the parishes are struggling, others are doing reasonably well, whereas some are so fixated with liturgical niceties - rather like some Anglo-Catholics are - that they descend into liturgical bullying at times.
I've been marked indelibly by my encounters with Orthodoxy, it'd got under my skin and into my system somehow - almost despite me.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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LawyerWannabe
Apprentice
# 14186
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Posted
Well a lot of the armchair theologians appear to be up in arms with many accusing the Ecumenical Patriarch and his Synod of embracing heresy.
Given how conspiracy-minded a lot of Eastern Europeans are, a common accusation is that the EP is a stooge of the US government and various Masonic Lodges. Currently some of the more vocal ones are claiming that Patriarch Bartholomew et all are about to go on "full on Uniate" and that the Russian Church must stand up as the Defender of Orthodoxy, the true senior leader of the Church and deal with those pesky Greeks.
Oh vey. Pass me the booze.
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But, for my own part, it was Greek to me.
Posts: 14 | From: Birmingham | Registered: Oct 2008
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
It's all very complicated and probably a microcosm of the situation Mousethief describes in the USA, where there are more Orthodox, of course, both cradle and convert.
I wouldn't at all be surprised if things weren't equally as messy in Australia, Canada, the Far East, Latin America, Everywhere Else in the World ...
Very messy here between the various Orthodox Churches, added to which has been some extremely protracted and very expensive litigation within the Macedonian Orthodox Church in Sydney. The English Bar has 3 traditional toasts: The Queen, the Bar, and those who make their own wills. The Macedonian Church could well be added in Sydney.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yeah ... I've come across some of this stuff, but to be fair most of my Orthodox contacts in 'real life' don't seem ill-disposed towards the EP, even if they regard him as being somewhat 'unwise' in relation to the Antioch/Jerusalem spat and some of the ecumenical initiatives he appears to favour.
They certainly don't seem to regard him as a US or Masonic stooge ... although that wouldn't kind of accusation wouldn't surprise me from some quarters.
I haven't had as much contacts here with Russian parishes as I've had with the Antiochians or the Greeks, but my impression is that things are a mixed bag there - with views which range from the completely paranoid to the rational and reasonable.
They all still seem to be smarting about whatever it was that went on down at Ennismore Gardens. There still seem to be people who don't talk to one another or whose friendships have been ruined by whatever went on down there ... I'm not close enough or informed enough to pass comment on either side.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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LawyerWannabe
Apprentice
# 14186
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Posted
Oh the Ennismore Gardens fiasco was somewhat horrendous from what I understand but a lot of it was the battle between immigrant Russians versus the converts (generally) and how the diocese should function, in the aftermath of the death of Metropolitan Anthony (who I understand wasn't a popular figure in Moscow).
Then we had the issue about the release of Bishop Basil to the EP from the MP and his subsequent deposition and laicisation.
I swear - you could make a soap opera out of the entire thing.
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But, for my own part, it was Greek to me.
Posts: 14 | From: Birmingham | Registered: Oct 2008
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibaculus:
Archimandrite Ephrem was quite eccentric, as you say. As is (in a different way) his brother, Prof Nicholas Lash, and his late uncle Dom Sebastian Moore.
And he was lovely. Eternal memory. (His last posting was a Greek church off the Holloway Road in a former Welsh noncon chapel. It was the nearest Orthodox church to my home when I lived in North London and sometimes attended services there.)
I hope his website is left going with all his liturgical translations.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I met Fr Ephrem Lash once or twice without knowing who he was until much later ...
Yes, he was lovely. Although, from what I can gather, like most of the Orthodox clergy I've met, he wasn't beyond getting involved in the odd jurisdictional spat.
I suspect it comes with the territory to a large extent. I'm not sure what the answer would be unless it could be decided that every land-bloc or country with significant numbers of Orthodox should have a single territorial Metropolitan or something ... but that would still leave the issue as to which Patriarchate they should be connected to.
It's hardly surprising that the RCs in particular have a pop at the Orthodox over this one. But I'm not sure that a Papacy is the answer either ...
![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Bibaculus
Shipmate
# 18528
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Posted
When I heard of Archimandrite Ephrem's death I tried to find his website to print off what I could, but find it I could not. It was called something like Theotokos or Metanoia or something (obviously neither of those, of course).
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A jumped up pantry boy who never knew his place
Posts: 257 | From: In bed. Mostly. When I can get away with it. | Registered: Dec 2015
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
The old boy was keen on IT. He used to have all manner of I-Pads and tablets and so on tucked away in his cassock.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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John D. Ward
Shipmate
# 1378
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Posted
Is anyone still in touch with Father Gregory [name removed]? His views on this, and other matters, would be very enlightening if he could be persuaded to return to the Ship.
[ 17. June 2016, 20:01: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posts: 208 | From: Swansea, Wales, U.K. | Registered: Sep 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
Unless posters, past or present, post here under their real name and make it unambiguously clear that it is their real name, don't ever post it, or anything you might think is it, on their behalf, unless you want instant attention from an admin.
Whatever their practice off this site, people's real names are theirs to use here as they wish - or not. Don't make assumptions in that respect on their behalf.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The old boy was keen on IT. He used to have all manner of I-Pads and tablets and so on tucked away in his cassock.
I knew him fairly well. Once he was due to speak at a conference and had prepared a visual presentation on his laptop. At Euston station on his way to the conference he sat down on a bench and put the laptop underneath and it was nicked. He was naturally distressed by this; but in the evening he have his talk and gave us word-pictures of what each illustration depicted - it was excellent.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'm still in touch with Fr Gregory.
I know his views on these issues. I won't share them here but can show you where you can find out if you send me a PM.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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